My sister and brother-in-law would like a new TV. At first I was simply going to give them a couple hundred dollars toward it to encourage them to get at least a 50". However, they've had bills come which wiped out their TV savings, so I'm considering getting a new TV for myself and passing on my 60" SXRD. I don't want to spend more than $2k simply because I still plan on getting a projector at some point. I just haven't seen the model that I want yet.

My TV search hasn't been very exhaustive yet, but these are my top considerations so far:

Panasonic Viera TC-P65S2

Mitsubishi Diamond Series WD-65838

I imagine I won't find anything at my price point and desired screen size that kills in the reviews, so is this about what I can expect?

If I go with this model of plasma, do you think I'll be disappointed in any way? I have my concerns about DLP. I like the technology, but that's based on the DLP that I see in commercial theaters. How is the home version of the technology these days? Also, if I go with DLP, would you recommend this 65" model or suggest a 73" model with fewer features?

I'm not entirely sure a new TV is the direction I'll go, but I'm leaning toward it heavily right now and would love to get your input. Thanks!

Being an S1 owner I vote for the S2. I know the S series has a slight green tint that is reported but I have yet have it interfere with my viewing pleasure or anyone else that has watched my TV. There are also reports out about fluctuating black levels but again this isn't bothersome to me. I am sure if you look at the various threads on AVS you will find various desparaging remarks about any TV, so save the hedache and pick the one you like and buy it.

I also like Mitsubishi products. I bought a 21" TV back in 89 and it still looks and sounds great today, never had an ounce of problem with it.

My coworker (who I finally got to be a pair of M2s), has an older Panasonic Viera. I was over at his house setting up his new receiver and looked at the TV. It had been a while since I saw it, before I even had my plasma, and with casual viewing it looks every bit as good as the Pioneer.

Mitsubishi probably makes the best DLP, rear-projection sets out there. But the best rear-projection still isn't as good as an average plasma when it comes to viewing angle. That's one of the other things I don't like about LCD, is you lose contrast as you move out of the sweet spot. The new sets aren't as bad as they used to be, but it still happens with as little as 15°. The rear-projection DLPs are the same way. Also I believe that there is no true dot-by-dot mode on the rear-projection sets that have small depth, that's because the picture has to be processed before sending it to the chip to correct for keystoning and other distortions.

I'll always vote for the direct view, self emitting (no back light) display panel.

I am surprised that Mitsubishi has still devoted a significant amount of time and effort in to still developing and selling RP DLP sets since pretty much all the other brands(Samsung, Toshiba etc.) who did offer them at one time or another in a similar style eliminated them from their product line awhile ago. Mitsubishi is about the only one left that I am aware of, still selling this type of technology in an RP format. It is kind of unfortunate since because customers were so preoccupied with the "thinness" aspect of monitors, LCD eventually prevailed and although a similar type picture, DLP sets were always a much better value, especially in the larger screens.

Of course, DLP is still very common in FP with Mitsubishi offering a number of models in this category.

Having said all that and since the Panasonic plasma you mentioned is a relatively new model within your budget limits and it would be a superior picture to the DLP set anyway, like Club Neon, that would be my choice.

Included in an email ad from 6ave today was this 60" plasma LG for about $1100. I dont know anything about this TV but it's priced 3-400 cheaper than I could find anywhere else. It doesn't have any of the web app stuff like a lot of the newer tv's but the price seems reasonable.

http://www.6ave.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=LGE60PK250

Just saw a commercial for the phillips media connect system.
http://live.philips.com/index.php/global/video/wi-fi-mediaconnect/111972122001

Seems pretty cool...

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. It looks like the plasma is the way to go. Now I just need to save a bit.

Charles, the December issue of Consumer Reports tested the TC-P58S2 and rated it a "Best Buy" in that size group while mentioning that the 65" model should perform similarly. Since the TC-P65S2 is available around $1800, it should meet your needs well.

I think that LG is the one Bryan(icehawk21) has (I should go back and check his threads but am too lazy to night). It has a very nice picture as well.

I have a Mits Diamond 65" 1080 DLP. Picture is great. Friends, the sound quality from this set is EXCELLENT. It throws a 5.1 sound image that is incredible. I hear effects behind me as well as off to the sides. Bass is strong, voices clear, I have a big 7.2 system around the Mits but I end up not bothering with it more often than not and I'm not missing much.

I would agree that if PQ is most important to you then Plasma is the way to go. DLP still gets you the biggest bang for your buck but IMO the PQ of both Plasma and LCD are better. Also DLP AFAIK still have the issues of bulbs dimming over time unless they’ve switched to using LEDs or something. I went with a LCD since my use for it is 95%+ as a computer monitor and even though burn in isn’t suppose to be as bad I didn’t see the point of risking it nor is it my primary display so I couldn’t justify the increased cost of a Plasma.

Do you have a costco nearby that you can wander through?? I'm pretty sure they have the Pany Plasma there. At least they do where I live.

The 55" Pany Plasma I have continues to impress me. If you watch sports, Plasma is the only way to go. No motion blur at all, notta.

Re that burn through, my son plays COD for hours on end(3-4 depending on how we feel about it for that day) and no burn in what so ever on the S1.

They've switched to using freaking lasers! Mit does have two laser rear-projection sets. Still the quest for thin has made them compromise the design. What I want is an over-head, front-projector that uses lasers as the light source. Only then will single-chip DLP be acceptable, as there is no color wheel--switching from one primary to another is instant.

I purchased an LCD-RP TV 4-5 years ago and it is still going strong on the original bulb. I wanted (and got) a 50 inch 720p/1080i set for less than $1500 at the time. I would never have been able to purchase a TV in that size range and price category if I went LCD or plasma. IT has been a great TV but the reduced viewing angles and poor black levels have really started to drive my nuts (I think DLP black levels are MUCH better though.) The set I purchased was a great compromise on size and PQ for a college student. Now that I have more extra cash to spend my next purchase will be a plasma for sure. If it wasn't for the (hopefully) soon house purchase I'd be a plasma owner already.

We do have a Costco, but they only have a 50" plasma. It's very cheap, though, at $629 last I checked, but it's also a 1024x768. Not that it looked bad.

Good to hear. I don't game as much as I used to, but it will certainly be used for that.

That's exactly what I want. Hopefully this plasma lasts me until I can get one.

Anyone know if LCD panels being used in TVs are TN, IPS, or something else? 'cause if they're TN, dude, I have a big problem with that.

<stomps all over Charles' thread>

I'm pretty sure every set made today uses some form of IPS, because the colors don't shift when viewed off angle (like they do for TN). But most aren't of the highest quality either, because there is still a contrast loss if you're not dead center.

I love my JVC HD-ILA RPTV. But if I was buying a set TODAY, I'd get a Panasonic plasma.

I'm holding out for the light saber based model myself.

I think light sabers only work for rear projection, as they won't reach much more than a meter; definitely not across the room.

You obviously don't have access to the same light saber dealer as me...

OK Charles, I have to ask. As the majority of people who frequent this sight have some sort of strange fear of leaving their homes and communicating with the world face to face, did you actually walk into the store or did you do an Internet search??? And keep in mind that I'm just F'ing with you in fun when I ask, but also being serious at the same time. LOL

Ha ha, this was actual in-store perusal. They've only had one plasma, the 50", for quite a while here. I wish they had the bigger models because I would feel better about buying it from Costco, and locally.

Have you looked into Costco.com? I see they offer the 54" G20 not quite the 60" you were hoping for.

I looked there, too, and I definitely don't want to go smaller than my current TV, which is 60". Going with something smaller wouldn't be enough motivation for me to save.

And we all know small wouldn't be manly enough to go with the very large M80s and EP800.

65" Panny

How about this one from Sears? $1999 and should be available locally.

I can't afford a new TV right now!

Oh, you weren't talking to me, were you?

Carry on.

The 65" Panny S2 mentioned above is going for $1773 with free shipping and no tax from 6ave right now if you use coupon code afl4coupon

http://www.6ave.com/shop/Product.aspx?sku=PANTCP65S2&gclid=CN63vJzcvaUCFRxqgwodxBBLYg

add to cart and enter coupon code for price.

I'd take one for that price and put my 58" S1 in my bedroom

Yeah, for that price I had to really think about getting one. Good thing my wife is here to remind me of our priorities

Me too, uh, my wife I mean.

I finally saw one of the S2s in person. Pretty good picture, though something was a little off in the color. I'm not sure if it was simply a calibration issue or not. It was at a place that knows a little more about that kind of thing than Best Buy or the like, so who knows. They don't push extended warranties there, and he kind of put my mind at ease regarding getting one. Most of the displays they sell now are Samsung and Panasonic, said his life is a lot less stressful since he's stopped carrying Mitsubishi and Sony due to reliability issues.

I may have bought the S2 if he'd had any in stock, even though I can get a better price online. I almost pulled the trigger online, then decided to wait until tomorrow. The price has already jumped up, though. That, coupled with my lukewarm reaction to the demo, has made me ambivalent about the purchase for now. Unfortunately, I want to buy a new TV soooon so I can give this one to my sister. I don't want to make them wait forever.

I'm still curious about DLP, but this guy's comments about the growing pains Mitsubishi has had by moving their manufacturing to Mexico makes me uneasy. Perhaps their act is together now, since I don't know how long ago he severed his ties with them. It sounds like their LaserVue sets are still made only in the US and Japan, but it's a bit more than I wanted to spend for a placeholder display. Ha ha. What would you do in my situation? Go for the S2, make my sister and her family wait even longer for their late Christmas present, or go for some other model?

I've been wanting the S2 simply for the price:size ratio but have yet to see one in person. What did you think was wrong with the color?

Seemed a bit yellow overall. Whites and blues didn't seem as pure as they should have been. They were playing Flyboys, which I've seen on my system, and I like the picture on my TV better. Of course, like I said, the settings may have needed tweaking.

Maybe you can take a copy of DVE or Avia and run through a quick calibration at the store?

Good idea, but I don't know when I'll make that happen.

There is a green push on the S series. No one I know of has ever mentioned anything wrong with the color on mine. I would see if they have it running in "movie" mode or not. If not set it there as this is the recommended setting for the S1 and I would suspect the same of the S2.

If you want accurate color, I'd stay away from the S1 and the S2. The S1 definitely had a green tint to it that couldn't be adjusted out.

I don't know if the green tint is an "across the board" characteristic of that Panasonic model or is it just the particular monitor coming out of that store and factory? That is why often to correct any of these issues, an ISF calibration done by an authorized calibrator is money well spent and can "usually" fix it.

Just as a possible recommendation and option, if wants to spend additional money to make a significant leap in your monitor's picture quality and accuracy, there are excellent options out there now that didn't exist until recently(ie. Video EQ Pro, DVDO Iscan Duo and the more elaborate and expensive Lumagen products) that now have complete multi-point(11-21) gray scale and color management systems built-in that once completed, will give an accuracy even considerably superior to what an experienced calibrator can do on their own who only has access to the monitors internal color controls(purchasers usually can't get access to these).

Along with one of the above options, get a meter and some calibration software like "Chromapure" and you will wonder what you did without it.

If I wanted to spend all of this additional money, I'd also go for a more expensive display to begin with. Maybe when I go to a front projector.

Theoretically, you should be right, however, the trouble is you could buy the most expensive model from any manufacturer and still possibly face the same color issues, it might not really matter. All one has to do is read the reviews of various television monitors, regardless of price, and these "out of the box" color(usually gray scale)problems are still fairly common. I have looked at multiple top-of-the-line sets in stores beside each other where one had a red color push the one beside it green and the third emphasizing blue. Even today, it seems the luck of the draw what you will get when you get it home and turn it on. These usually aren't that noticeable but if you have nothing to compare it to then you won't ever know.

Its been like that for years. Here again, realistically, I will admit it depends how far your interest and pocketbook is willing to take you in order to achieve "video nirvana".

Color accuracy does seem to be an issue across the board, you're right. It's simply hard for me to justify the expense of deeper-than-menu-options calibration on a cheaper set, where it seems like too huge a chunk of the budget. If I'm going to go all out, I'm going to go all out, even if the extra features of the display have nothing to do with basic color balance. My original 60" SXRD cost $4000+tax, which is the most I've spent on any single A/V item, and I still never got it professionally calibrated or bought tools to do it myself. I suppose part of the problem is that I don't want to invest the extra money in something I'll probably want to replace a few years down the road, anyway. For someone who's buying their system for the next 10 years, it makes perfect sense, though.

Interesting point and considering the rapid pace of change in technology, I can't blame you for your thoughts. A couple of interesting points, though, about this topic that is starting to happen is that all the equipment I was touting have all done recent 3D firmware upgrades "gratis" so they are set for awhile.

Perhaps most are not aware yet but, a few companies, ironically Panasonic for one, has included in their top of the line sets, the ability to directly interface with certain software(Calman/Spectracal)for one, to do calibrations on their sets including basic set-ups right in the same software and make interactive adjustments. Some top-of the line FRONT projection units(eg.JVC) include directly built-in to the units, grayscale and color management systems, so all you would need is the software and a meter to do the calibrations and not require the hardware interface unit at all.

So I guess the bottom line is, up until now, despite what seems to be as a fringe or limited "enthusiast" type process which comes at significant extra cost, working in conjunction with some software companies who specialize in getting the most out of your new monitor, more and more mainstream companies are gradually including this stuff in their products, so it seems the thoughts of greater color and gray scale accuracy and how to get it is gradually becoming more "mainstream".

It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

To me this is evidence that flat panel TV's have become a mature technology (not much more they can with them)and the manufacturer's are now recognizing the consumer as being a little more tech savvy than they used to be.

I'm thinking of saving up the additional $1000 to buy the 65" model of LaserVue. Or $1400, since it's definitely one I'd get an extended warranty on, being the first generation of this technology and all. I'd certainly be more excited about this purchase than buying the S2.... Here's hoping the LaserVue stays at $2999, or better yet, drops in price as I save. It'll suck making my sister wait a bit longer for this TV, but I'll feel better about buying something I'm excited about, even if I was just calling this a placeholder until my eventual front projector purchase. It's still a big chunk of change.

I'm excited about someone buying a LaserVue, too. If that helps.

An excellent point.

For those that are interested, what is also happening right now and it is in the final stages of completion, is automated calibrations. If one has one of the newer DVD Iscan Duo or Lumagen product that has its own built-in test patterns, the unit will interface with the software, one click of the mouse and it will automatically go through the test patterns(eg. grayscale)do the measurements, go on to the next etc. until it is finished and your monitor will be calibrated without you having to touch anything in between. It is interesting to note that these units in particular have gone from being primarily scalers to the complete video scaler/calibration package, so there must be an increasing market for this stuff and like a lot of electronics prices are coming down.

All quite innovative.

Now if we can just get them to stop this 3D nonsense till it can be done without the glasses. Hmmmmmm, I wonder how much of this new calibration accessibility is from the need to calibrate a 3D TV to maximize the effects?

Not sure if this is the laservue model you are referring to but I read a couple of negative reviews about its black performance on letterbox watching and during a few other instances.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3B3LBUMIXS49H/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3B3LBUMIXS49H

That being said, I'm sure that every TV you find will have some negative reviews...

Yeah, I want to see it for myself. I think I might be more annoyed by the fan noise, if it's as bad as the guy says.

New plan, guys. I gave my sister a choice between my current TV and $1000 toward a new TV. They're going with the cash, and she said they would be able to kick in another $600-$700. So with a budget of $1600-$1700, what models would you be considering? The only stipulation is that it needs to be over 50". Thanks for any input you have!

Chris, don't worry, I still plan on saving up for a LaserVue. It will simply take me a little longer, but that's more time for them to announce new models that I may hold out for or for the price to drop further (fingers crossed). My dad was making comments about wanting my current TV, so this would work out for everyone.

Charles, Panasonic TC-P58S2, about $1300 shipped here with code JNY4.

Yeah, probably better that you wait. I want someone to get a LaserView, but that's because I want them to tell me how awesome it is. I do fear that might not happen with that first gen model.

I have said it before and will say it again, just have her/them pick the one THEY like and go with it. They all have one problem or another. Just stick to the usual suspects, Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, etc. and all should be well. I will add I have been impressed with the PQ of the new LG sets as of late but haven't done any research on any issues that they might come with which might be why I am liking them

I'll put that on the list of potentials. Thanks!

Yeah, I'm leery of first-gen of any tech considering my experience with SXRD. We'll see if my thinking changes as I save.

Just sell me one of ep800s for the difference...

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss DLP, unless they need to hang it on a wall (or use it as a PC monitor). The PQ on a modern DLP is nothing to complain about and the size/dollar ratio can't be touched.

I wouldn't trade my Mits 73738 for any 60" Plasma or LCD/LED. The extra size more than makes up for any slight difference in PQ (IMHO).

Some people can't stand color wheels though. I can't be around a color wheel based DLP (especially if I'm seeing the screen out of my periphery) without feeling sick.

3-chip DLPs are fine, and the laser light source ones are too.

It doesn't make me feel sick, but I find it extremely annoying. DLP projectors are worse, though, since the image covers a large area. Moving my eyes from one part of the other really makes the rainbows come out.

Dude, that's the Mescaline.

When I first got my DLP RP in 2004, it bothered me for a few days...then I was simply aware of it for another week. Now I can honestly say that I haven't even been aware of it for years.

Of course, I'm on Mescaline too.

So sorry to hear that you got DLP/RP in 2004.

I'm glad, though, that you said it doesn't bother you anymore, even though you've had it for years.

Is there a standard treatment for DLP?

Yes.



Mescaline.

I didn't read this whole thread since it is long, but I may be the perfect person to answer the original question.

Get the S2.

I have the Panasonic 65 V10 and it is an excellent TV. With calibration the S2 should have a similar picture.

I upgraded from a 60" Sony 60A3000 SXRD that I gave to work. ( i own the company)

I also bought a Mistu 65" 737 model DLP for my parents recently. It lacks the auto-iris.

Upon changing from the SXRD to the Panasonic, I wasn't blown away. It was a substantial improvement, but I was expecting to be blown away by how awesome the picture was. I wasn't and initially wondered if it was worth the $ I paid ($3600). I think this was just that I had amped up expectations and how good the SXRD was. But, now I go back and view the SXRD and it disappoints me. I've become accustomed to the better picture quality and it hurts a lot going back to anything else. I now notice the silk screen effect, average black levels, and bad viewing angles on the SXRD more than I ever did when it was my primary TV.

The Mitsu DLP sucks compared to either the Sony or the Panasonic. It isn't even a contest and you WILL NOT be happy with it. It's fine for my parents and I can watch it and it looks fine in a lit room, but it isn't a great TV. It's an adequate TV and the saving grace is the $1000 price tag. Colors are off ( i never calibrated it beyond setting cinema mode), silk screen effect, poor viewing angles, poor black levels, and poor uniformity.

I did see a 60" LG plasma at Costco for $1300 yesterday, and my sister called me today to ask about it, since she saw it, too. What are people's thoughts on LGs? I've always heard to get Panasonic if you go with plasma, at least since Pioneer left the picture, but how much difference is there, really? I wasn't impressed with the picture on the one I saw, but that's almost always the case when I'm looking at TVs around town. They never have them set up properly. The convenience of buying from Costco would be nice, and the price is right.

Do you remember what the model number is?

I haven't been impressed by the older Plasmas but the newest models look quite good, IMO. And a 60" Plasma for that price is a pretty good deal but I suspect it to be an older model.

Charles, I've casually looked at the LGs as well as the Panasonics at Best Buy. At least the way they had them set there wasn't any apparent difference.

You may have seen the 60PK540 or 550; if so, they both got a recommended rating in the December Consumer Reports tests, and a score essentially equal to the Panasonic models.

Thanks, John. I'll have my sister look at the model number. It sounds like it could be the way to go.

The LG and Samsungs will not deliver as good black levels. They are double the Pansonics, but they still outperform LCDs lacking local dimming and make excellent TVs. It will outperform your Sony LcOS as well.

Yes but they don't suffer from the same diminishing black levels as the Panasonic plasmas.

Does the S2 suffer from diminishing black levels? I thought it was previous models that had that problem.

I suspect it does as they haven't changed much on the S2 from the S1.

All the Panasonics suffer from black levels increasing over time. The S2 simply has a slower ramp up but will hit the same levels eventually as the S1. The Panasonics, even after their black levels have maxed out, will still measure below LG and Samsung black levels.

Thought I'd chime in since I own the LG you are probably looking at. I recently purchased and have had an LG 60PK550 for just under 3 months. It replaced a 51" Sony RPTV. I've never owned a plasma but I do own a 32" LCD for casual viewing in a different room.

I purchased this TV based on good reviews it received for being one of the best bang-for-buck value televisions. My main reason for upgrading was to go bigger (60") and to accommodate BR playback at 1080P 24fps, as well as buying newer technology to improve picture quality. I purposely did not buy the 'best' (i.e. Panasonic VT25) and was looking for best bang-for-buck as I suspect that I'll be replacing this in a few years time when newer technology comes out and when/if 3D becomes the standard. I didn't need to spend too much.

In these respects I can wholeheartedly recommend the LG PK550. It was the least expensive 60" I could find (paid $1500 CDN, including delivery) that still provided excellent picture quality and BR playback.

Is it the best TV? No. But it's close enough for me and my family. Here are my general observations and pros/cons. Keep in mind that I had this TV professionally calibrated but, to be honest, out of the box it wasn't far from where I ended up after calibration.

Pros

[list]
- Excellent picture quality. Color accuracy is spot on, good contrast and pop to the picture, very smooth looking picture.
- Smooth playback of BR 24fps. No stutter or judder. Avatar looked simply amazing.
- Decent black levels. Not great but I don't really notice that the black levels are elevated. Particularly if you watch with a bit of (back) lighting. In pure darkness you'll notice it but even then only if you are looking for it. It definitely doesn't bother me with normal watching.
- Shadow detail is pretty good
- Extensive calibration controls. 2 point or 20 point white balance adjustments and partial CMS. My calibrator did not require anything in the service menu and did full calibration using the user controls
- Minimal buzzing. On a full white screen there is some audible buzzing if you are up close to the screen - but sit back more than a few feet and it's barely noticeable. No noticeable buzzing during normal program material.
- Simple, elegant design. Looks very nice. Bezel is thin and gives TV a very nice look.
- Simply put - probably the best-bang-for buck TV on the market right now.

Cons
- The screen is reflective. I don't really notice it too much but I don't have much ambient light and usually watch in a lower light environment. Plus my previous RPTV was quite reflective and this TV is somewhat less reflective. It's definitely noticeable when not turned on but once a picture is being viewed it's not too bad. But I'd reconsider if I was watching in a room with lots of sunlight.
- I have a bit of a screen uniformity issue or dirty screen effect. Not really noticeable unless I'm watching something with a constant lighter background such as hockey (can see 'shadows' on the screen against the ice) or golf when they are on the putting green. Don't really notice it too much under normal viewing (i.e. movies, TV) unless I really look for it. I also think that it is getting a bit better as the TV ages but that might just be me getting used to it.
- I would say that this TV employs a bit more visible spatial dithering than other plasmas (i.e. green/red/blue dancing pixels) in darker, but not black, areas of the screen. However, it is really only noticeable when viewing up close (less than 4-5 feet) and isn't really noticeable from my viewing distance (11 feet). Sometimes I think it's adding a bit of noise in the background of some images but then I think that it could actually be the source material. Regardless, it's not really that noticeable and is simply how the TV renders these images. Definitely not noticeable when watching BluRay.

To put it simply - when I watched Avatar on BluRay from my PS3 via HDMI I was blown away. I had never seen any TV look as good as my LG 60PK550. Ditto for Cars and Toy Story 3 on BR - simply amazing!

Hope this helps!

Bryan

Thanks for the detailed comments, Bryan! That does help. They might be somewhat concerned regarding the reflectiveness of the screen, so I'll pass that a long. But yeah, I really don't think they'll be able to do better than that set right now. Oh, but she said she thought it was the 540 at Costco. I imagine the differences aren't major.

There's really no difference between the 540 and 550 as I understand it. Same panel and processing. I just think they have slightly different model numbers depending on the retailer. Otherwise they should be identical.

I agree - I don't think they'll be able to find a better valued set for the price they'll pay. The could find a better set for more money but, IMHO, unless you are a discriminating viewer I would bet it would be hard for the majority of buyers to visibly discern the differences between the top-of-the-line plasma and your middle tier. I think the LG PK550 does a great job of delivering a very good picture for the price you pay.

Bryan

9 pages of posts and you still haven't bought the TV?? What would Regina think?

Hey, I sent my sister the check I promised her. Here's hoping they deposited it so they can buy the TV this weekend. I'm tempted to get one, too, but I probably won't.

I'm pretty sure you promised me one also....

Only as incentive for you to un-square your HT room!

And while you're un-squaring your room, Mark, you'll have to listen to some Dave Brubeck.

I don't think Brubeck is noodley enough for Mark.