Multiple Subs

Posted by: Nick B

Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 11:04 AM

I have an original LFM-1 Outlaw sub and have been thinking that a few years down the line that I would like to upgrade to something with a little more extension and output. Since I don't want to have to upgrade several times I was thinking about getting an SVS Ultra 13 or Axiom EP800 or Seaton Submersive. But, I have read several articles mentioning that you need at least two subs to help smooth out the frequency response for all of the listening positions and even help smooth it out in the sweet spot as well. When you start doing the math, two of these about subs comes to over $4000, which is probably more than I would want to spend on subwoofers.

Then I started thinking well maybe I could get two EP500's or maybe two HSU ULS 15's. That may not be a bad idea, but then I read the review of the Outlaw LFM1-EX over at Audioholics and it was a pretty glowing review (for subs in that price range). I didn't expect the review to be so positive, with all of the tough competition in the $600 price range. So now I am thinking that maybe I could get three of the LFM1-EX's and I would have four almost identical subs (since the LFM1 is basically a half brother), and maybe I would be better off than even the two subs as a pair that I mentioned above. Sure I wouldn't have that extra 5 to 7Hz extension that I would get from the other subs, but I bet it would sound better in every other seat, ignoring that extra bit of extension. I found a good article that discusses this same topic.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/subwoofers-4-2-or-1-0

If I go with four subs do you guys think that it is a good idea to have the same brand for all four? The SVS PB-12NSD and Axiom EP350 are close in price to the Outlaw LFM1EX, so could I get three of the SVS's or Axiom's and use my Outlaw LFM1 and have them integrate well?
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 11:14 AM

IMO the Axioms fall way behind in performance and price compared to other brands. There was a user on AVS that had a PB12NSD and bought a Axiom EP500 for another room. The PB12 NSD went deeper, had more tactile feel, and played louder, it gave up alittle in the "musical" area but not much. Axioms have a "brickwall" type high pass filter on them so they don't gradually roll of it justs stops right at the filter. Which hurts any room gain you could get.

If you want a pair of "mega" subs, the SVS Ultra, SubM, JTR Capitvator, eDs A7-450, A7s-650 would be the way to go.

I'm an Axiom owner, but just look at all the forums for audio and hometheater and very rarely to you see anyone recommending or praising Axiom subwoofers. They just plain suck for the price.
Posted by: Jc

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
They just plain suck for the price.

Hi gtpsuper, I wonder if you have personally auditoned an Axiom subwoofer or if you are judging them only from comments read on various forums ?
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 11:54 AM

I've seen various awards for Axiom subs...

Although, I own an SVS, mainly because at the time, the Axiom sub line was minimal with only a couple of underpowered (for my needs) options.

I am going to build a second sub for my theater build. It will be based off of my existing SVS, but probably be a box instead of a cylinder since I should be able to build that real quick vs building another sub that my wife hates the looks of.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 12:47 PM

[/quote]Hi gtpsuper, I wonder if you have personally auditoned an Axiom subwoofer or if you are judging them only from comments read on various forums ? [/quote]

Yes I have a EP175 for a bedroom tv setup with soundbar, got the sub from craiglist, about a year ago.

Does the Axiom subs implement a "brickwall" type high pass filter?

Originally Posted By: nickbuol
I've seen various awards for Axiom subs...


Along time ago, nothing recently. Axiom hasn't done major updates to their subs for a long time. Not like HSU, SVS, eD ect... Thats why they've fallen behind, most review/rewards are from 2004-2007.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 12:59 PM

GT, I'm pretty sure that the 400, 500, 600 and 800 have all come after 2007.

You've got old info.
Posted by: Jc

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 01:13 PM

gtpsuper,
Other than owning a used Axiom EP175 (might have been modified and not performing as it should) what other experience and/or qualifications can you offer to support your statement that "Axiom subs just plain suck for the price" ?
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 01:14 PM

EP800 no measurements though
http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/axiom_ep800_v3.htm

EP600 reviews Feb '06 and June '06 only ones I can find.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/axiom/axiom.html
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/axiom_ep600_v2.htm

EP500
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0306/axiom_ep500.htm
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/axiom-ep500
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/axiom_ep_500.htm
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/axiom_m22v2_m2v2_vp150v2_ep500v2.htm

I mean if theres reviews out there recently of the EP800,600,500 that have measurements and is objective by all means post some, theres nothing out there. Like I said the majority or all of them are '04-'07/08
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 01:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Jc
gtpsuper,
Other than owning a used Axiom EP175 (might have been modified and not performing as it should) what other experience and/or qualifications can you offer to support your statement that "Axiom subs just plain suck for the price" ?


Nope the EP175 performs just fine, comparable to Polks PSW110 and Mirages S10.3. A friend has each one for his hometheater, Newegg clearances. Luckily I didn't pay the almost $600 price for it.

Most of your competitors offer better performing subwoofers at sometimes half the price of Axioms. For example
HSU STF1 $362
eD A3-250 $415 (destroys the EP175 for HT)
Epik Legend $559 close to same size not a monster subwoofer, outperforms the EP175 and still does it under the EP175 price.
Rythmik FV12 $565 includs shipping. Again cheaper than the EP175.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 01:40 PM

i get the feeling this is going to be interesting reading.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 01:43 PM

Originally Posted By: J. B.
i get the feeling this is going to be interesting reading.


I'm not trying to start a fight, trolling, or agumentive. I just responsed to a post about subwoofers and gave my honest opinion. Nothing against Axiom, but they really could do much better in the subwoofer dept.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 01:47 PM

One thing I'd like to see is all of the reviews to be recent reviews on the Axiom site. It seems that every time I check out the reviews, they are talking about the M80ti versions, or whatever.

Nobody cares what a ti version sounds like today.

Example: the 1st M22 review is dated November 2001.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
Originally Posted By: J. B.
i get the feeling this is going to be interesting reading.


I'm not trying to start a fight, trolling, or agumentive. I just responsed to a post about subwoofers and gave my honest opinion. Nothing against Axiom, but they really could do much better in the subwoofer dept.


exactly what i suspected. what is wrote was not negative in any way. ;-)
Posted by: Jc

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
. . . I'm not trying to start a fight, trolling, or agumentive. I just responsed to a post about subwoofers and gave my honest opinion. Nothing against Axiom, but they really could do much better in the subwoofer dept.

Neither do I, but I'm simply wondering how you can give your honest opinion on all Axiom subs when you only own one used model which you have not compared side-by-side with competitors' models in your room. You can also compare specs against specs but too often they are not reliable.
I'm sure that you can see my point and now, I will now move on.
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 02:48 PM

I'm enjoying my EP800s quite a bit, and the EP600 before that, but I've never owned subs of quality from any other manufacturer. I still hope to pick up a HSU or SVS at some point for whatever secondary system I end up with. I do think Axiom could benefit from having a more steady stream of reviews of their products, especially at the flagship level, but I understand the pitfalls of that as well. Still, for people who really want to research their purchases, it would be a good sign to see at least a couple in-depth reviews out there of every product.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 02:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Jc
Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
. . . I'm not trying to start a fight, trolling, or agumentive. I just responsed to a post about subwoofers and gave my honest opinion. Nothing against Axiom, but they really could do much better in the subwoofer dept.

Neither do I, but I'm simply wondering how you can give your honest opinion on all Axiom subs when you only own one used model which you have not compared side-by-side with competitors' models in your room. You can also compare specs against specs but too often they are not reliable.
I'm sure that you can see my point and now, I will now move on.


If I said I've only heard the EP175 and its the best sub i've heard would your response have been

"How can you give your honest opinion on Axiom subs when you've only used one model and not compared side by side with competitors"

I doubt there will ever be any 3rd party tests of Axiom subs. They backed out of the shootout with the EP600, I see that as the EP600 would have came in last place and they wasn't confident in its performance.

I would love to see a properly done non biased shootout between the PC13 Ultra, EP600, HSU VTF 15H, SubM, eD A7s-650 or A7-450. All within the same price range, and just let the measurements speak for themselves. A treated room with bass traps, proper sub placement and no EQing.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
Originally Posted By: Jc
[quote=gtpsuper]. . . I'm not trying to start a fight, trolling, or agumentive. I just responsed to a post about subwoofers and gave my honest opinion. Nothing against Axiom, but they really could do much better in the subwoofer dept.

Neither do I, but I'm simply wondering how you can give your honest opinion on all Axiom subs when you only own one used model which you have not compared side-by-side with competitors' models in your room. You can also compare specs against specs but too often they are not reliable.
I'm sure that you can see my point and now, I will now move on.


If I said I've only heard the EP175 and its the best sub i've heard would your response have been

"How can you give your honest opinion on Axiom subs when you've only used one model and not compared side by side with competitors"

Its ok as long as I don't say anything negative of Axiom, even though I've owned Axiom since 07-08 (M22s, M2s, VP150 and EP175). But my opinion doesn't matter since I'm didn't highly praise Axiom? So really no ones opinion matters on here unless they've done side by side testing and comparisons. So if someone asks about the EP 500 vs other sub, no one can comment unless they've done side by side of each of them right?

I doubt there will ever be any 3rd party tests of Axiom subs. They backed out of the shootout with the EP600, I see that as the EP600 would have came in last place and they wasn't confident in its performance.

I would love to see a properly done non biased shootout between the PC13 Ultra, EP600, HSU VTF 15H, SubM, eD A7s-650 or A7-450. All within the same price range, and just let the measurements speak for themselves. A treated room with bass traps, proper sub placement and no EQing.
Posted by: casey01

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 03:41 PM

To be fair and for whatever reason, Axiom chose to back out of the sub shootout which I believe was the one back a year or two ago conducted by "Audioholics". This was after Axiom had a pretty good long-term relationship with them that, for reasons only known to the hierarchy at Axiom, quite abruptly ceased.

The reality is for the shootout in question, Axiom was far from the only manufacturer that didn't take part so there was obviously something going on that had many others as well decline to be involved in the process. There are dozens of companies out there and I believe, in the end, Audioholics only conducted the comparisons between, at most, four or five models, hardly a good measuring stick by which to judge which one may be the best.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 04:04 PM

Quote gtpsuper: "and just let the measurements speak for themselves."

measurements are only half of the story;
to "speak" for themselves,
it's better if people also listen to them with a good variety of source material,
and it's still better if those people have listened to other subs before awarding points to a particular piece of equipment.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 04:09 PM

Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
I'm not trying to start a fight, trolling, or agumentive. I just responsed to a post about subwoofers and gave my honest opinion. Nothing against Axiom, but they really could do much better in the subwoofer dept.

But you posted:
Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
They just plain suck for the price.


Really?

So you post that statement, then say "hey, I'm just giving my opinion".

Well, BS. You're trolling for a fight.

Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
Nothing against Axiom, but they really could do much better in the subwoofer dept.


This is how you should have stated it in the first place.

And no, we're not fanboys. But if you go to a Chevy forum and post "Chevys suck", you can't really be surprised if you're not greeted with open arms, can you?
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 04:11 PM

yeah, just like jc, i'm moving on...
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 04:13 PM

Ditto.... I've said my piece....
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 04:36 PM

Aren't most reviews about the subjectivity (perspective, feelings, beliefs, and desires) of the person giving the reviews anyway? I believe the goal of the upper end of the Axiom line has been to provide the cleanest, most uncolored, and accurate bass response as possible, before individual room characteristics changes it.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: CatBrat
Aren't most reviews about the subjectivity (perspective, feelings, beliefs, and desires) of the person giving the reviews anyway? I believe the goal of the upper end of the Axiom line has been to provide the cleanest, most uncolored, and accurate bass response as possible, before individual room characteristics changes it.


Most of the reviews are, but mostly because they aren't allowed to truly test the product. If a reviewer says something alittle too harsh the company fights not to have the article published.

Like when I said "let the measurements speak for themselves" I wanted all subjective biases out of the way. Its much easier to judge a subwoofers performance based on measurements than it is with speakers. To me a graph can tell you so much about a subwoofers performance.

I can say all the positive things I want about Axiom EP175 and no one would have questioned me about my knowledge or if I compared it to other subwoofers ect... But since I said it isn't the greatest performing sub in its price range and that there are better performing and better built subs in its range, thats not allowed.

I've defended Axiom for many years on Audioholics and AVS. I've PMed many people over on AVS and recommended Axioms and openly on the forum too.

I'm not blinded, I can see that Axiom subs have fallen way behind the other ID brands. Thats the reason why theres not reviews in the last 5-6yrs is because they haven't done anything with them. While all the others do model refreshes and improving the drivers and amps, adding entire lines of new products Axiom just watched it sail right on by.


Posted by: Hansang

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 06:31 PM

I have EP500 (love it) and I also have EP175 (not so great). But with the price difference, I can't really expect the 175 to perform anywhere near the 500. So when I say my 175 doesn't perform to par, I always put it the context of "as compared to my EP500)"

I'll be the first to admit that's like comparing a college quarterback to Aaron Rodgers. It's neither fair nor useful.

I love watching movies with my EP500. With the EP175, not so much. You get used to what you get used to. It's like this: if you get used to flying business class, it's hard to go back to coach. If you get used to driving a luxury automobile, it's hard to go back to a lesser model. Once you get used to a great sub, it's hard to go back.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 07:07 PM

I jove my EP600 and Twin EP350's all in the same book, very intense Bada$$bass.
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 07:44 PM

Just a comment about the comments since I already gave my thoughts on the sub situation... This site, and Axiom, does get negative feedback from time to time. Usually, I am amazed at how respectful people are of someone's opinion, and a healthy debate ensues. Axiom doesn't shut down, lock up, or delete anyone's negative comments. Instead, they often participate, ask for more details and information, offer thoughts and suggestions, and take an active roll in their product and forums.

Had you basically not used the "suck" phrase after a somewhat limited exposure to the full product line yourself, or any of the other awesome subs that you mentioned, is a bit harsh. I think, and I have heard several Axiom subs, a HSU sub, Paradigm sub, and own a SVS sub. I think that Axiom has some strong products in their subwoofer line, and maybe some weaker ones. I am not going to mention costs, just the products themselves....
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 08:03 PM

I have a SVS 25-31pci and a 16-46pci in my main area. The EP175 is for the bedroom for tv watching used with a AuraSound soundbar. I also have a Boston Acoustics PV1000 subwoofer sitting in my computer room not being used, as well as a eD 13av.2 driver in my car with another one sitting in the garage, just too heavy for another one in the car, trying to find another project for it. And a Behringer Truth 2092 subwoofer for computer audio. Plus a pair of V2 M22s, 2 pair of M2s and a VP150 V2.

And if you read my post more carefully I said that I also compared the Axiom Ep175 to my friends Polk PSW110 and Mirage S10.3 subwoofers. But since my opinion of Axiom's EP175 didn't sound like a marketing advertisement its baseless and doesn't count.

Anyone really think that the EP600($1860) can compete with the PC13 Ultra $(1699). Or the EP500($1270) against the SVS PB12+ or HSU VTF 15H?

Where is all the research and designing Axiom always talks about? No subwoofer upgrades in 5-7yrs. While other brands continue to improve each year or every 2 years, Axiom remains subborn. SVS doesn't brag about ongoing research and development but yet they've released two speaker lines plus revisions. Added a new sealed subwoofer line, improved their cyclinder line and PB line. Whats Axiom done? Magnetics grills and silver dust caps.

But my biggest complaint is why does the EP175 cost $600????? What is it that Axiom charges a premium over their dated designs compared to other brands????
Posted by: fredk

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 08:14 PM

Now your just plain picking a fight. You don't like Axiom subs. We get it. Move on.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 08:46 PM

Welllllll, I did compare my PC13 Ultra against an EP600 v2 side by side and other than some variences here and there for and against each, the EP600 held up well enough. I have no idea how well the EP600 would fair against the new version of the PC13 so YMMV.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 09:10 PM

Wouldn't matter Jay. In Canada, once you add in the shipping, you're looking at the EP800 price. These days, the 800 is priced with or pretty close to the competition.

I remember when the PB13 first came out it was cheaper than the 600 (at least in the US). It was probably the best value sub on the market.

To the OP. For the price of a PB 13 or an EP 800 I could build a sub with substantially better performance. That does mean that either of those subs are crap.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
"Chevys suck"



Mark, you better take that back right now!
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 09:29 PM

Well, he's right. So do Fords.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 09:56 PM

Ken, those are fighting words... Besides "we the tax payers" can't afford for them to suck any more.....
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 11:16 PM

I originally bought an EP175, but it was not enough sub for a living room environment. I uprgaded to an EP350 and have been impressed with it ever since. To compare an EP175 to other subs would not be a fair comparison. Personally, I'm surprised that Axiom even continues to make the 125 and 175.

Now, concerning the review page, again. When I click on the 3rd and the 7th link for the M80's. It doesn't even direct me to an Axiom speaker, that I can find. Is the review site ready for prime time?
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/01/11 11:59 PM

GTP, on at least one point there appears to be a misunderstanding on your part or in sources you may have read and are relying upon: there is no "brickwall type high pass filter". There's a low-pass filter of that type operating to cut off response above 100Hz in some models(e.g., my six year old EP500)and 150Hz in others. "Room gain" occurs in the lowest 20-40Hz octave or slightly higher in very small rooms; the low-pass filter in question has nothing to do with this. Some models do offer the ability to switch in a subsonic filter for frequencies below about 20Hz to prevent subsonic disturbances, such as rumble when playing LPs, from creating a problem.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 10:38 AM

A sealed subwoofer should not drop off like this http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speak...view_fullscreen



http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speak...view_fullscreen EP500

I'd like someone from Axiom to comment if its a "brickwall" HPF

What really got me upset was that my opinion doesn't matter even though I own and Axiom subwoofer (if you can call it that)
M22s, M2s, VP150. Check out my posts on AVS where I battled it out for year recommending Axioms to people (except their subwoofers) Which I still like the M22s and M2s, and still have recently recommended them on AVS.

Find me a thread where Axiom subwoofers have been recommended in the last few years, there isn't one, nobody wants them cause they are so dated compared to the competition and are priced at a premium at that. Looking at measurements of the PB12 NSD and it kills the EP600 under 40hrz. $769 VS $1860. The $400 Emo sealed sub kills the EP400 and does it at 60-70% less. $1100+ for the EP400 with performance like that graph, and its a hollow box ZERO bracing just a 3/4" mdf a 8" woofer and an amp nothing special.

The OP posted asking about subwoofers and actually thought the EP600 and 800 was in the same league as the SubM and Ultra will there not in the same league the EP600 can barely compete with SVS and other brands lower end models. If your going to spend the $2K on an Axiom subwoofer you should know your buying an outdated underperforming, under built subwoofer.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 10:57 AM

http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/axiom_ep800_v3.htm

I quote "The EP800 proved to be the deepest-playing, most powerful subwoofer Iíve ever heard. "

Recent enough for you? Good enough review?

That said, I've only heard my EP350, a few EP500s, a couple of EP600s, an SVS or two. So I'm not particularly educated.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 11:05 AM

Wheres the measurements? Really that reviewer just gave his opinion just like I gave mine right? So if my opinion doesn't count being an actual owner why does his. Wheres the in room response graph, ect....?
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 11:38 AM

You're not an actual owner of an EP800. You're an owner of a different Axiom sub. Would you like to cite graphs for me that show that the EP800 is inferior to other subs?
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 01:28 PM

you seem to be so engrossed in proving to yourself that your thinking is right and others are wrong that you "forgot" in the links you gave that those subs are PORTED. that's the reason the curves are not like acoustic suspension subs.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speak...view_fullscreen

i'm quite sure that if i was to scrutinize all your posts, i would find many other contradictions, but it's not worth the time and effort; i got better things to do with myself.

Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 01:51 PM

If you look at the first link I posted its the EP400 sealed sub. Look closly it says EP400 at the bottom of the chart. Now explain why it bombs at 20hrz. Strong response then BAM nothing. It should have been gradual not cliff drop off. The second is of the EP500 you get the slight hump at tuning point which looks to be 28-30 and then drop off.

Its ok I was once a blind follower too.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 01:54 PM

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speak...view_fullscreen

http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep400.html
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 02:03 PM

Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
Wheres the measurements? Really that reviewer just gave his opinion just like I gave mine right? So if my opinion doesn't count being an actual owner why does his. Wheres the in room response graph, ect....?


Your opinion does count, and is welcomed. The manner in which you expressed however, "sucked", and could have been stated with more tact. You could just suck it up and apologize, then carry on with the debate. Or not, and no one will pay any attention to you because of the choice of words you made.

Originally Posted By: Ken.C
Well, he's right. So do Fords.


Not as much as Apple.

Nick -

I have an LF-1, 2 500's and a 600. The LF1 is no where near the playing field as the 500. I think two 500's would be more than enough for your room. I actually prefer them over one 600 (in the same room).
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 02:33 PM

gtsuper, you're trolling. Take it to AVS.

Quote:
Anyone really think that the EP600($1860) can compete with the PC13 Ultra $(1699)


Like Jason, I HAVE heard them both in the same room, back to back, in the same position. They were different, but certainly competitive. The owner chose to keep the EP600.

Quote:
Strong response then BAM nothing. It should have been gradual not cliff drop off


How delightful for you to live in The Land of "Should"! Why do you think your perception is Truthier than the design choices made by the designer and manufacturer?

Quote:
Its ok I was once a blind follower too


Please stop being an arrogant troll and if you can't contribute something positive to the community, just move on. The forums here have been steadfastly in support of helping people ENJOY equipment and content, regardless of its source. You seem to be on a quest for something else. Just because I don't salute your analysis doesn't mean I'm blind or that I even disagree; it means I just don't care. I want to have fun. You're not making it fun.
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 02:37 PM

Oh, great. I didn't know fun was the objective. I thought I was doing my part by weirding everyone out.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 02:43 PM

That's fun for us, Charles.
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 02:44 PM

Sick! Now I know why I feel at home.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 02:47 PM

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
gtsuper, you're trolling. Take it to AVS.

Quote:
Anyone really think that the EP600($1860) can compete with the PC13 Ultra $(1699)


Like Jason, I HAVE heard them both in the same room, back to back, in the same position. They were different, but certainly competitive. The owner chose to keep the EP600.

Quote:
Strong response then BAM nothing. It should have been gradual not cliff drop off


How delightful for you to live in The Land of "Should"! Why do you think your perception is Truthier than the design choices made by the designer and manufacturer?

Quote:
Its ok I was once a blind follower too


Please stop being an arrogant troll and if you can't contribute something positive to the community, just move on. The forums here have been steadfastly in support of helping people ENJOY equipment and content, regardless of its source. You seem to be on a quest for something else. Just because I don't salute your analysis doesn't mean I'm blind or that I even disagree; it means I just don't care. I want to have fun. You're not making it fun.



First I was told that I posted the wrong graph and it was a ported sub thats why it response looks like that, thats not the case I posted a sealed subwoofer EP400. I like to know why it drops off like that. I said early that Axiom uses a Brickwall filter but never got and answer, so I proved it with that graph that it drops like a rock. Never said one thing about it being a bad design choice I just like to know why it has a Brickwall and not just a gradual roll off.

But noboby wants to talk about the science and truth behind products and the designers choices. They want Yeah I love Axiom there the greatest thing ever buy buy buy. How does that help anyone other than selling them a speaker?
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 02:52 PM

I'm all for an explanation of the design choice, but I don't expect it instantly, and I do think your negative tone makes it hard to make it a reasonable conversation. Relax, dude.
Posted by: medic8r

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 03:20 PM

Originally Posted By: CV
Oh, great. I didn't know fun was the objective. I thought I was doing my part by weirding everyone out.

Wow, and the insight just keeps on comin'!

I think you've shown remarkable progress, CV. Shall we schedule another session in a week?
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/02/11 04:40 PM

GT, WTF is your problem? If you don't want to buy an Axiom sub, then don't. Many others are enjoying theirs just fine.

I know I said I'd stay out of it, but trolls piss me off, and it's evident that that's all he is at this point....owner or not.
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 12:21 AM

Originally Posted By: medic8r
I think you've shown remarkable progress, CV. Shall we schedule another session in a week?


Nothing beats public therapy.
Posted by: Spoiler

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 05:52 AM


Dr. Phil and his pocketbook agree!
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 06:27 AM

Originally Posted By: CV

Nothing beats public therapy.

Therapy beats public beatings.
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 11:26 AM

Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
GT, WTF is your problem? If you don't want to buy an Axiom sub, then don't. Many others are enjoying theirs just fine.

I know I said I'd stay out of it, but trolls piss me off, and it's evident that that's all he is at this point....owner or not.


I don't have a problem. I made a comment about my feelings on Axiom subs, being an owner of multiple Axiom products I feel I should have the right to do that. JC didn't like that comment, and didn't want to answer my questions on Axiom, and he went on to assume that I didn't own a sub and just repeating what I read on various forums. The only opinions that are allowed here on this forum is positive only. The slightest negative comment and you guys go on an all out attack. And when someone brings facts to and arguement and posts graphs and makes a good case you guys can't handle it and post stupid pictures or change the topic to small talk.

Amie is a good PR person, but never answer any questions. She said that Axiom isn't focusing their energy on shoots outs or test, Why??? All you do is contact a review and send a product and they do the rest. You ever wonder why Axiom products never really get a full on test/review? When other products espcially ID brands get a full battery of tests, measurements, properly done blind test ect... I know companies don't like to have their products look bad, but they should also go, heres what we got, we're not hiding anything. And if our product fails to perform, back to the drawing board and our goal next time is to be perfect or damn near close. Axiom does the marketing to tell everyone how great the stuff is but done want to back the claims up.

"Sucks" was a bad choice to use but IMO it wouldn't have made a difference because I still would have been attack and challenged. I enjoy being challenged in a debate on things I enjoy, but don't bring baseless childish posts in it.

I posted the EP400 brickwall graph and J.B. didn't even try to look at it and said Oh thats a ported sub get your facts straight. Really? Since when is a EP400 ported and why does a sealed sub drop like a rock off the cliff? I know you guys hate facts and science type stuff but a "Brickwall" HPF kills the room gain below the HPF. And causes lots of audible group delay at the cutoff freq. Nobody here though "I wonder why Axiom did that?" But instead I see 3 Stooges pictures and Chevy vs Ford comments. I'm the troll? I'm talking about subwoofer and subwoofer designs and gave my opinion on that, what does 3 stooges and cars have to do with Axiom audio???
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 11:41 AM

The trouble with this discussion, GT, is that you won't accept any answer at this point other than Axiom saying "Yup, you're right, we snowed you all, ha ha." and us saying "Oh lord, you're right, they snowed us and we're a bunch of jackasses."

Conversely, we (as the collective of people who you're pissing off) won't accept any answer from you other than "Oh, you're right, you're not a bunch of suckers, sorry about that."

You didn't just say suck. You said a lot more than that, and I don't care to look up the vitriol and repeat it again.

Maybe you keep hearing the same answers to your questions because they're the truth.

I'm done here, and I'm personally putting you on ignore so I don't have to read your crap any more. I'm sorry to have to do that, but I don't need that kind of stress in my life.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 12:37 PM

gtpsuper, it's all in the attitude...

repeat after me: it's all in my attitude, it's all in my attitude, it's all in my attitude, it's all in my attitude, it's all in my attitude, it's all in my attitude...etc...
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 02:06 PM

Yep probably a little harsh but when your trying to get discredited right after the first post it kind of makes you upset.

I'm not trying to convince everyone that they are wrong and i'm right. Its I was trying to make a point and never got a clear arguement back except to say TROLL TROLL I'm Leaving I don't have time for this.

"This is the forum where you can find answers to all your questions about loudspeakers, home theater, and audio/video. It's also a great place to meet other members of the Axiom family and ask for their opinions and advice, to get PRODUCT COMPARISONS, and to give us your suggestions on how we can continue to improve our Axiom web site experience."

They should add to that "Only if you agree with Axiom and think they are perfect, if you disagree you will be hated and accused of being a troll"

Sorry if a simple forum conversation stresses you out. I can't imagine what real life situations do to you. Maybe because you can't come up with an arguement or a complete though instead you just say Troll and i'm ignoring you.

But I'll just go ahead and leave you Axiom marketing and salesmen alone. Sorry it had to turn into a debate about designs, features, quality and not a salesjob.
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 02:50 PM

I see your points, gtpsuper, and hopefully you won't go away. It'll be fine if we can all just take a step back and breathe, don't you think? I'm interested in the design choices, and Ian and Andrew have stepped up in the past to give a little insight on some of their choices. It's their right to do that or not do that, but I think a little patience is in order.

Also, you might try to see if there's enough of an enthusiast community in your area to have get-togethers and compare gear directly. Head-to-head in a real-world setting would probably satisfy a lot of your curiosity, even with the compromises that come with that kind of arrangement.

In any case, I do think we have reacted a little too strongly on a couple of occasions. I'm not well-read enough to be able to respond to your points, so I was hoping some other people would step in. All I can say is I'm very happy with the clean, deeeep, articulate bass I get from my four EP800s, but I realize not everyone can commit that much money. Ha ha. I'm still surprised I did. I'm still curious about other offerings, though. HSU, SVS, Rhythmik, and eD are all brands I would love to try. I'm just going to find it hard to justify when I already have such a great setup. One of these days....
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 03:37 PM

Originally Posted By: gtpsuper

They should add to that "Only if you agree with Axiom and think they are perfect, if you disagree you will be hated and accused of being a troll"




Actually, this is not a true statement. Personally i have made several post's about things i either did not like, or wish axiom would change, these posts were replied to by several other members none of which bashed my post's.

However, i did it in a manner one would expect from an adult. First impressions, no one knows who you are, and you come on the forum making very uneducated statements. Honestly, what kind of reaction did you expect?

That's all i have regarding your posts, i think you tried to bring up some good point's, however i also think you lack the social skills to effectively convey your points without pissing everyone off....
Posted by: BobKay

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 04:09 PM

Originally Posted By: dakkon

That's all i have regarding your posts, i think you tried to bring up some good point's, however i also think you lack the social skills to effectively convey your points without pissing everyone off....


Now he's treading on MY turf!

I'M THE TROLL here with no social skills who pisses everyone off.

As sung by Sparks, from 1974's "Kimono My House:"
"This town ain't big enough for the both of us,
and it ain't me who's gonna leave."

One sociopath per online forum. Sorry, but them's the rules.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 04:10 PM

point proven....

smile
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 04:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Jc
Originally Posted By: gtpsuper
They just plain suck for the price.

Hi gtpsuper, I wonder if you have personally auditoned an Axiom subwoofer or if you are judging them only from comments read on various forums ?


I come across childish and immature? How about he say something like "I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, what subwoofer do you have? Maybe its setup wrong or something needs adjusted."

My Response was:
"Yes I have a EP175 for a bedroom tv setup with soundbar, got the sub from craiglist, about a year ago.

Does the Axiom subs implement a "brickwall" type high pass filter?"

"gtpsuper,
Other than owning a used Axiom EP175 (might have been modified and not performing as it should) what other experience and/or qualifications can you offer to support your statement that "Axiom subs just plain suck for the price"

How about he say, your EP175 might have been modified, because I feel its a strong performing subwoofer for its size and power and should do well matching up with a sound bar for a bedroom setup.

JC goes on to say:
"Neither do I, but I'm simply wondering how you can give your honest opinion on all Axiom subs when you only own one used model which you have not compared side-by-side with competitors' models in your room. You can also compare specs against specs but too often they are not reliable.
I'm sure that you can see my point and now, I will now move on."

But I remember posting that I did a DIRECT comparison between the EP175, Mirage S10.3 and the Polk PSW 110. And shouldn't he know right off the top of his head if Axiom implement a Brick wall HPF? Or does he not want to say?

Like I said I probably shouldn't have used the word "sucks" but I also think that JC went into full on defense mode.






Posted by: exlabdriver

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 04:54 PM

I see that gt just hijacked a SVS thread in Audioholics by bad-mouthing Axiom over there also. Thankfully he was told to stop posting in that thread. Strange from someone who claims to be a big Axiom supported in the past.

Check out the 4 pages here:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/77248-sv-sound-pb-12nsd-subwoofer-preview.html

gt, if you don't like Axiom subs, fine. Please go away & buy something else...

Tom
Comox, BC
Posted by: gtpsuper

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 05:07 PM

Axiom was brought up by other members not me. The article is about the PB 12nsd.

"I recently tried both the new PB12-nsd and the Axiom EP500 and the NSD easily outperformed the Axiom (IMHO)." quote from Trolly

If you look at my 1st post in that thread #13
I said "Axiom EP500 seemed to perform really well last year in the AH test." I messed the date up as I seen it said Aug 25, 2010 but the review was from 2004 I was corrected and went and stated that I was wrong.

I posted here first giving my opinion to the OP who was comparing subwoofers. As most members here I am also a member on various other forums.

I never started the Axiom bashing nor did I hijack the thread. And was told to actually start a thread about Axiom so what does that tell you? I only found that thread because I was looking for reviews on the EP500 and since thats the most current EP500 topic at the time it was first in the search.

When someones does a direct comparison between a $700 and almost $1300 subwoofer and the cheap one way outperforms it that gets me interested.
Posted by: exlabdriver

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 05:47 PM

I stand corrected, you weren't the first to mention Axiom - kini did in a most approapriate way; however, you eagerly jumped into the fray with your ongoing rants that became clearly off topic there.

Why don't you just buy something that you like & can afford & be done with it?

Don't worry your little head over what manufacturers are doing or not doing with their product lines - they are free to run their enterprises as they see fit. If you don't like them or their product, just go elsewhere - there are tons of choices out there. That's what most reasonable people do.

With the longevity of Axiom in the most competetive speaker manufacturing business, something must be working OK for them.

This has become most tiresome. Bye...

Tom
Comox, BC
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 05:56 PM

I still think there's more meaningful conversation to be had here instead of "just go buy something else" and "you're all a bunch of salespeople." Ha ha. I like how at odds those two points are, though.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 06:12 PM

CV. Every good sales person knows there are some 'customers' that you would rather your competition had.
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 06:42 PM

I don't buy it.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 07:24 PM

The rolloff in the EP400 is not typical with what you see in a sealed subwoofer especially in a box and driver of that size. Its a small box and a 8" driver.

The reason why its not typical is because the EP400 uses DSP processing and it is trading off output for extension. The EP400 extends really deep for a subwoofer of its size but if you notice it is still a sub that is recommended for a small/medium room or den and not meant to replace the EP500 in a large room for example.

I'm not really sure the exact reason why the brick wall filter is employed but it is probably to keep the sub operating within its proper bandwidth as its specifically tuned for extension. I could be totally wrong though.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 07:32 PM

I've voiced my opinion of Axiom products, both positive and negative aspects. But I haven't once been put down as negative and told to go away. It's all in the attitude and presentation. I'm sure if we look hard enough, we'll find something negative about everything.
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 07:39 PM

That's the great thing about the universe. It all sucks and it's all great. It's also what sucks about the universe.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 08:44 PM

But, but... I have the spec sheets and everything. grin
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By: CV
That's the great thing about the universe. It all sucks and it's all great. It's also what sucks about the universe.


Black holes suck the worst.

Or the best?
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 10:56 PM

It's quite obvious that gtpsuper lacks tact, but the fact that he was immediately set upon by the regulars was bound to get his hackles up and escalate things rather than return them to a reasoned discussion.

We all love Axiom's products and it's only natural that we want to jump to defend them when we feel someone's opinion of them is misinformed. When that happens, before you hit Submit on your post, take a step back. What is the motivation behind this guy's post? Did he really intend to disparage all us Axiom customers or was that just an unintended consequence of poorly chosen words? Does he simply have an axe to grind? If so, don't lay yourself down and become his whetstone.

Someone said "It's all in [your] attitude," and that's true, but it works both ways. Whether it was cast intentionally or accidentally, you don't have to take the bait.
Posted by: CV

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 10:57 PM

Listen to the sound of bacon and reason!
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 11:00 PM

I call it greason.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 11:12 PM

Pmbuko, would you please change your Avatar to a non cooking bacon one.. it's driving me CrAzY... I don't have any Bacon in the house to cook!!!~~~!, And i don't want to have the urge to cook bacon every time you post....


Please do this ASAP.


Thank you.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 11:14 PM

Just look at it for a long time and think "Damn, he's overcooking it. It's going to burn and make the whole house smell for a week!"
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/03/11 11:25 PM

smell like bacon....... which is just as bad as grilling steaks right outside the back door, then the whole house smells like grilled steak for hours... even after the steak is gone, then your sad... And want more steak!!!......
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/04/11 08:17 AM

I'm pretending it's turkey bacon.

Speaking of bacon, I'm going out for breakfast at Golden Corral for the first time this morning.
Posted by: BobKay

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/04/11 03:38 PM

Really, Brian, some of your confessions make mine look downright benign. Golden Corral!

Those places have more bacteria living under the sneezeguards than on top. And they have way too many offerings that include marshmallows.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Multiple Subs - 12/04/11 04:06 PM

You've got a point there. Perhaps they out to sell the "I might have survived the buffet, but I'm not sure yet" t-shirts. Oh-well. Just about anyplace you eat out at is bound to have it's share of no-see-ums.