After sifting throught the mess that is HT combinations, I want to upgrade from my Energy C-500 towers, C-100 center, and C-R100 rears (all powered by a Yamaha HTR-6160 receiver). My TV is a 40" Sony Bravia 40V3000. My sub is an SVS PB12-NSD.

I want Axioms, let's get this straight. I had the opportunity to audition them at Axiom's headquarters and was impressed with what I heard (not to mention all the good feedback I've read).

I was wondering the following: if upgraded to M80's and a VP180, would acquiring an Emotiva XPA-3 allow for enough power for the above speakers? Or should I splurge for a XPA-2 and a separate XPA-1 for the center? My receiver would drive the rears.

Or should I get a 4-ohm receiver, for now (looking at the Harmon/Kardon 3600 as it does 4-ohm)? The room my ht will be in (once renos are complete) will be 20'w x 15'd with a sloping ceiling (15' to 6').

Any help with regards to this would be greatly appreciated. I'm leaning towards an Emotiva Amp, but I've seen people here run M80's on a receiver.

Thanks in advance!

Welcome aboard!

I would buy the speakers you have chosen and run them with your Yamaha, it has more than enough power to drive the M80s and VP180 to very loud levels, maybe not for long periods but it will work without the added expense of the separate amps. Once you know whether or not the Yamaha works the way you desire, you can then decide on that amp purchase for which the XPA 3 has more than enough power to drive the front 3, that extra couple hundred watts available in the XPA2 amounts to about 1-2 db higher output, not really noticeable at those high output levels.

Hi Sedimin, I would definitely and without hesitation opt for the Emotiva XPA-3 for the front array of your Axiom speakers. Even if it does not take much power to power the Axiom speakers they love power and they will more than reward you for it. Excessive power is never a waste !

that is correct, but unused is just that, unused. With that said, I do love my 7700 Outlaw.

"unused is just that, unused".
to this i would say: how do you know it will be unused all the time?
even if it's used rarely, it would prevent you from getting distorted sound or compression or unnaturalness.

this is the very reason i updated my audio system; once in a while, i did not have quite enough power; the distortion was bad, there was compression, danger of blowing tweeters, and low-fi sound.
now i got M80's that can take the power without distortion, and enough power that i will always have some spare, thus, no distortion, clean sound at any level.
i always listen to movies at reference level and to music at realistic level. only the dishes in the cupboard produce distortion once in a while, but i don't hear it, it's overwhelmed by the speakers sound level.

don't forget that not enough power is more dangerous to speakers than too much power.
take a 50 watt amp and use it at maximum volume in speakers rated at double or triple that many watts, and you'll get speakers that smoke.

Thanks for the quick responses, guys. I had a feeling I could run the M80's with my Yamaha (it does allow 2 speakers at 4 ohms), but doubt I could run the VP180 as well.

As well, I don't listen to my music, movies, and games at loud or extreme levels. My Yamaha is usually around -40 to -23 db for movies with the Energy's (which I find lack clarity/muddy).

So, if I understand this correctly, I can run all 4ohm speakers on my Yamaha with no chance of damage unless I crank them to high volumes (something I rarely do). However, a XPA-3 would have more than enough power to pump out the wattage and make these puppies sing. Correct?

Thanks, again!

As an added piece of information, upon scouring the manual a bit more, I can run front speakers at 4ohm, but the center, surrounds, surround backs must be 6ohm. Does that imply I can use M80's, yet no VP180 for the center? The QS8's are 8ohms, so I'm good there.

Thanks again for any clarity you good folks can provide.

if i was playing something at -40 to -23 or so dBSPL, i too would find the level so low that i would have some difficulty hearing clearly; unless it's the Energy's that have a problem.
the levels i was talking about for movies is the same level at which they play movies in the cinema.

i had Energy 22 Ref. for about 25 years, and with some program material, they would distort heavily for some seconds, taking in some 500 Watts each. the rest of the time, they were great,only lacking in deep bass, below about 32 Hz.

in room fr. resp. was about +2 to -3 dB 22Hz-18kHz.

if your yamaha is rated for operating at 4 Ohms, then it should work ok, but you may not have enough power.
why don't you start with the Yamaha and see?
it you hear any distortion while playing music of movies, then you should go for high power amps; not forgetting that doubling the Watts gives you only 3 dB more SPL.
i can't see how you would not be satisfied using the XPA-3 amps.

third line from the bottom should have read: ...while playing music OR movies...

Sed, welcome. Your initial question seems to be based on an assumption that the Axioms would require more power than the Energys you use now. If anything, the contrary is the case. The C-500 and M80 both have a 91dB sensitivity spec for 1 watt input, but Energy bases their numbers on two speakers operating, which boosts the figure by 3dB. So, on a equal basis the M80 is more sensitive and requires less power for a given sound level. The same point applies to an even greater extent to the center speakers; the little C-100 is significantly less sensitive than the big VP180 and requires more power. Bigger speaker doesn't necessarily mean bigger amplifier: the bigger speaker is often more efficient and uses less power.

Your 6160 should have more than enough headroom for the Axioms. Once you have enough headroom for the levels involved, any more is simply unused and is meaningless. Speakers don't acquire human traits and it isn't helpful in what should be a serious discussion of audio technology to casually throw in an anthropomorphic comment about how they "love" higher power ratings.

As to the impedance setting, under no circumstances follow the direction in the manual to use the lower setting. This is a legally required warning to help prevent overheating, but it does this by reducing the voltage output of the amplifier power supply section. Obeying the law(Ohm's Law), this results in lower current and lower power capabilities. Tests show this cuts maximum power roughly in half. Your Axioms will do fine by staying at the default 8 ohm setting.

500W really? You had/have 500W amps? How loud were you listening? Just because a speaker claims a power rating of 500watts or 700watts doesn't mean they use or need any where near that kind of power; most people run at 1-10 watts for a normal 70-80 db level at the listening position with extreme peaks hitting 50-100W for most in home listening experiences.

Jake,you can calculate how much power is needed to play 115 dB SPL with a speaker's rated sensitivity of 86 dB SPL/anechoic, at 5.5 Ohms (increase that from 86 to around 89 in-room).

i know for a fact that the amp would put out around 725 Watts/ch on fast peaks, and around 400 Watts/ch on steady signals, into 5.5 Ohms. The p.s. voltage: 64Vrms
the amp can run fine with 2.2 Ohm speakers, and it can put out as much as 20 amps.

Playback volume was at reference level.

You guys are awesome and making me giddy like a school boy going to an all-girls school!

Sooo...my receiver can push the Axiom speakers, but an amp would help with more power to smooth out distortion. That being true, in my humble case, where I do not crank my speakers loud (hell, even at -23db on my Yamaha, it's plenty loud...maybe I have sensitive ears, not yet violated by the wonders of sound?), the receiver would be fine unless I notice clipping and distortion, right?

And JohnK, leaving the receiver at 8 ohms won't harm the speakers or receiver? Even if the specs on the speakers state 4ohm?

Sorry, but this seems too good to be true! I could have these speakers by Feb!

Thanks again for the helpful tidbits and banter...it helps me understand more about home theater than the usual watts and power.

Nah, you don't need an amp if you're not pushing it.

Don't forget to add in the distance you are listening in the formula like the online amp calculators do, but either way J.B, you listen far too loudly for me. I listen at about 70-85 and peaks hit around 100.

With a 40" TV, im around 6-8' away...and that's why I don't have to push them? As well as the speakers sounding muddy?

Sed, a higher power amp than what you have now in your receiver wouldn't "smooth out distortion" if you weren't playing your present equipment loud enough to produce audible amplifier distortion, which you apparently aren't doing.

Leaving the receiver at the 8 ohm default setting couldn't damage the speakers and would be extremely unlikely to damage the receiver. Since more clean power is available at the 8 ohm setting(as mentioned above), the speakers are less likely to be damaged by inadequate power reserves leading to clipping. If very loud levels were played for an extended time(which you don't do)the receiver might overheat, but its internal protective circuit would shut it down, and normal operation would return after it cools down(having given a hint to turn it down a bit).

you say i listen far too loudly; the levels i listen to is the same as in good cinemas.
maybe one reason you can't do it (too loud) is that your room is not treated? or maybe the neighbors.

i had forgotten to talk, in my previous post, about distance from speakers to MLP; in a small room, i think it should be about 3-4 dB less for each doubling of distance. large rooms lose more,until in open spaces it's 6 dB's.

I don't think that Jason (jakewash) was criticizing you, just saying that it was too loud for him.

You are correct though that many (most/all???) of the time when a room has a bunch of treatments in it, the sound that hits someones ears can seem to actually be *less* than an untreated room, thus the ability to play "louder" in a treated room without being painful.

Then, factor in that you might like to listen to things louder too, and that might make up for the difference in the preferred volume. Again, I don't know about Jason's setup, but I didn't see it as being critical.

i did not think he was criticizing me, only that he probably has different tastes or his room wasn't treated.

JohnK,
The only way I could damage anything, then, is if I cranked the speakers, correct? Far above the -23/-24db (receiver goes to +16db)I usually use my Energy's at? Sorry if I ask soooo many questions, but I just don't want to damage anything (well, the receiver isn't an issue), or spend the money on speakers I can't use unless I upgrade my receiver.

Thanks for being so patient! You guys are awesome! This is the last question, I swear!

Ignore my last question - I'mma gonna start upgrading my speakers. If a better receiver comes along, great, I'll upgrade the Yamaha, but until then, I'll get a VP180 and M80's...go big or go home!

The surrounds? The QS8's will be the cheapest part. :P

Thanks again for the information you folks have provided.

Sedimin

No criticism intended, just trying t ensure anyone following is getting the full info on power requirements. as for my room, I think of it as what most people have, no treatments, but it certainly isn't a 'bright' room, carpet, cloth seating, drapes etc. I also suspect for me to listen at those levels with just my 3808 I am hearing some distortion which as you know is unpleasant, so I don't try to reach those levels; maybe in a few more years I will finally get an amp, until then I am happy with my system.

it IS treatment, probably minimal, but certainly much better than none.

I tend to think of room treatment as actaully doing something specifically for sound reproduction purposes, bass traps, wall hangings etc. Everything in my room was done for our living experience not sound reproduction.