To what extreme?

Posted by: brwsaw

To what extreme? - 11/01/12 02:46 PM

I'm curious to know to what extreme you're (all) willing to go to or have gone to for the results desired.
I don't think it would go over well here or at home but the thought momentarily sideswiped me...to use M80's (my speaker of preference)for L/C/R and maintain the desire TV height of 30" I'd need to drop them into 9.5" deep holes... and here's were the divorce papers come in.
A the very least the wife would kill me but it got me thinking how cool it would be to hear some of your own horror stories and achievements as they relate to going where no man(or women)has gone before.

P.S. I miss TNG. I can't wait to see the series on BR.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: To what extreme? - 11/01/12 03:43 PM

I realize this won't work. The lowest woofer and the port would be covered but...
I'd still be interested in hearing your stories.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: To what extreme? - 11/01/12 04:15 PM

I think you may be overthinking.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 11/01/12 06:26 PM

You'd have to raise your TV; putting the M80's into "holes" would severely compromise their fidelity.

I think the "dedicated room" (and/or single) guys are more likely to spend the time, money and WAF capital it takes to optimize their listening/viewing experience. No matter how much equipment you throw at the issue, if your room sucks, you can't really overcome it.

grunt, onn and CV all have pretty insane systems. Nick and sirquack have probably done more to fix the acoustics of their rooms than anyone else I can think of.

StPatGuy has one chair in the sweet spot. I love him.

My stuff is part of how I live. I have forced-air heat, a kegerator, an aquarium, high ceilings and open floorplan. It doesn't make sense for me to spend time/money going for golden ear territory, or for me to spend energy worrying about it. I just savor the moments on the couch with my loved ones.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: To what extreme? - 11/01/12 06:36 PM

I wouldn't actually do it, but the thought did last slightly longer than it should have.
Posted by: fredk

Re: To what extreme? - 11/01/12 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
You'd have to raise your TV; putting the M80's into "holes" would severely compromise their fidelity.

Indeed. The side benefit of raising your TV is that you can now put your seating on a platform that is really two huge horn subs that will get you to 6Hz +- 1db at 130db loudness.

Now, that does require some architectural changes to the house. The wife is already gone by then so you are good to go...
Posted by: Murph

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 07:51 AM

I'm with Tom. Although I love to tinker and I can overspend on gadgetry if given a loose leash, luckily the term "law of diminishing returns" kicks in to my brain at some point to save me from major trauma.

I'm Extremely happy with my sound at this time without room treatments (other than the strategic placement of furniture & decor)and with just basic calibration. I continue to tinker but more so just for the sake of tinkering. Someday, I want to do something to smooth out my serious bass nulls as this is a very noticable problem and probably worth the time and energy for me. However, I don't feel the need to invest thousands (or risk my marraige) over very tiny, incrimental gains.

In my personal opinion, since you asked, dropping speakers into the floor would be going a bit overboard on the diminsihing returns scale and actually likely drive you downwards in sound quality a bit vs. up.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 08:27 AM

I used to really be into the equipment end of things. But those who have been around this forum for any length of time have heard that I have a small, square room.... the worst type of listening situation there is. Along the lines of what Tom wrote, I live on a busy street, so traffic noise is always an issue as well. Within a few months or so of getting serious about this (by purchasing Axioms and better electronics) I was doing measurements and realized exactly how bad my room was affecting things. I was a bit pissed off for awhile, feeling like there was nothing I could realistically do to improve things.

But then, I came to the realization that it didn't sound nearly as bad as it measured. As a matter of fact, it sounded pretty damned good. I put away my SPL meter and haven't taken it back out in 8 years. And this is from someone who used to have a RS meter in high school...in the late 1970s... and ALWAYS was a believer in going that route.

My dream here is to build an addition onto the house. Something of a "great room" with lots of windows and an open concept. I would LOVE to get LFRs, BIG subs, and lots of amp power. But I don't care anymore if I have the perfect listening room or the top-level of equipment. I don't have any interest in a "theater", though I don't want to sound disparaging to those who do.

I want the setup to be good enough to not diminish the enjoyment of the media. But I'm no longer looking to measure myself into unhappiness.

Geeez, is that last line a setup, or what?? smile

For me, at this point, it's all about the music, movie or even the TV show. I've achieved a level in equipment that satisfies me and I don't really think about it at all anymore.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
it's all about the music, movie or even the TV show. I've achieved a level in equipment that satisfies me and I don't really think about it at all anymore.


Yes! This!

On a fundamental level, the room and the equipment are present only to enable and enhance our experience - our consumption of The Art.

I'll grant you that there is art, craft, creativity and design present (and worth appreciating) in the equipment. But - to me - focusing on the equipment or environment is a bit like going to the Louvre to check out the lighting.

Without the musical and theater arts, there would be no need for us to reproduce them in our living spaces.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 11:45 AM

Same. We do have a nice sweet spot that our family of 4 can fit into nicely. Most of the time its only me watching movies, after the kids are in bed, after a long week.
While my room has its own issues (mainly me) its time to upgrade.
The system I have, while really cheap, has sounded damn near perfect a number of times (tweaking ruined me more times than I care to admit).
The wife even agrees "if you're going to upgrade anything, get new stands". I've taken this as permission, its the best I'm gonna get.
I'm shocked at what I've heard from the used QS4'S I picked up. If they are any indication of whats to come I'm at the right place.
Posted by: fredk

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
...But then, I came to the realization that it didn't sound nearly as bad as it measured. ...

And this.

I believe that puts outside the realm of the audiophile.

I started playing around with room treatments until I realized that I would have to completely rebuild my apartment to get significant gains.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 12:55 PM

We renovated the basement about 6 years ago and in doing so we included a media room ('HT room' sounds so passe).
Some older pics (sorry for the larger images; photobucket's resize feature doesn't seem to be doing squat):









One thing i definitely wanted was a room to control the sound for two reasons; kids growing up watching movies with friends = loud sound in the rest of the house and secondly, so that we didn't have a room that was hard on the ears (e.g. one of those marble floors, tall ceilings, open concept, lots of echo). I just don't find those kinds of rooms bearable for everyday conversation let alone music or movies or even tv watching. The rooms i do seem to prefer are the libraries and the small bedrooms with heavy curtains and carpet.
I refer to it as 'controlled' echo.

Anyway, we put together that room and i've tested out several different speakers down there; Axioms, Tannoy, Monitor Audio.
All of them sound great.
None sound good in our main living room, a room of echoes.

In brief, my point is that although we spent money on one specific purpose that WAS 6 years ago. We haven't done a thing since. I'm interested in measuring my room acoustically for the sake of curiousity, but it is highly unlikely i'm going to do anything further when it comes to tweaking sound.
I may continue to build the system from a 5.1 to a 6 or 7.1, but that's about it for the sonics.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 12:56 PM

It was hard for me to give up on that pursuit of perfection. It's something I deal with daily, and music has always been important to me.

But there was a point at which I decided to let go of the pursuit of perfection in this case, and I've been much happier for it.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: chesseroo
We renovated the basement about 6 years ago


Hey, I remember that! No pictures of the wine cellar for this thread wink

Still just beautiful.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 02:55 PM

I think i put those in another thread, maybe.
The cellar probably looks alot more full now.
I need to get some photo tips from Mark about how to take a shot with such difficult lighting conditions.
That, and i need a wide angle lens.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 04:05 PM

Yeah, I was really just reflecting on the passage of time. My daughter was 8 when I started posting here and she's in college, now. Your remodel was SIX YEARS ago, and I remember being enchanted by the pictures, then. Before you know it, it will be time to get drunk on Ian's dock again.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 04:18 PM

Actually it was in '05, so 7 years.
Sorry Tom.
Made you another year older.

I think the next time i drink any PEI moonshine i'll be on Murph's dock. I might stick to green tea at Ian and Amie's.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: To what extreme? - 11/02/12 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By: chesseroo
I think i put those in another thread, maybe.
The cellar probably looks alot more full now.
I need to get some photo tips from Mark about how to take a shot with such difficult lighting conditions.
That, and i need a wide angle lens.

Just drink more wine so you can fit what's left in a single shot with a prime lens.
Posted by: CV

Re: To what extreme? - 11/03/12 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
It doesn't make sense for me to spend time/money going for golden ear territory, or for me to spend energy worrying about it. I just savor the moments on the couch with my loved ones.


One of these days, I'll give up, too. laugh

I realize how ridiculously out of whack my priorities are. So far, though, I've only spent an outrageous percentage of my income on the gear and the media. I'm on the verge of spending on the room, but I'm going into it knowing there's a lot of compromises I'm going to have to make. I will fall short of my dream, but I'm still looking forward to hearing it all in a room that at least has a little more going for it.
Posted by: Hellcommute

Re: To what extreme? - 12/01/12 11:51 AM

I've taken drivers out of cheap polk subwoofers and added poly stuffing to try to tighten up bass response.... it worked a little. Most benefit was in seeing inside a sub cabinet.

For the first bit though, little puff balls were all over the room floor. LOL! Overthinking leads to silly stuff sometimes. laugh
Posted by: exlabdriver

Re: To what extreme? - 12/01/12 04:23 PM

I learned long ago that constantly worrying about achieving the perfect setup & sound was largely counterproductive & really not worth the effort. Besides, aesthetics are important as well because I can't live with a setup that does not look pleasing to me & especially my wife. I am fortunate as both my 'Audio Room' & 'HT Room' are irregularly shaped & thus are largely immune to standing waves & drop outs.

When I read in the other forums how fanatical people are about moving speakers 1/2 an inch to attempt to get that last % of performance makes me chuckle. Then, after all of their effort & tweaking, if they perceive that it hasn't met with their often unrealistic expectations, then it's off to sell their gear & purchase something else. It's not something that I do very often - I happily listened to my AX2s for a couple of decades, ha!.

I don't think that the bass-heads ever really get immersed in the essence of a movie as they are more engaged in measuring & assessing ULF response every time they put a show on. Each to his own, but it is beyond me.

Initially I set up my 'HT' with Audyssey & after it directed me to decrease my subs to a more correct level, I've left well enough alone. I listen to program material rather than the equipment & it all sounds pretty good to me.

Much like the overall Axiom design & manufacturing philosophy, we have a much more mature & pragmatic approach to things over here.

I like that...

TAM
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 12/01/12 08:01 PM

Well said, Tom!
Posted by: Murph

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 11:51 AM

Congratulating yourself eh? Seems a bit out of character for you but we still luv ya.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 12:59 PM

I was trying to be "friendly" to my fellow Pacific-Coaster by using exlabdriver's given name rather than his initials or user name.

You know, like when I call you "drunk Irish guy".

smile
Posted by: medic8r

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 01:23 PM

We get it, Chief Coors Light Lovemaking Canoe.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 01:56 PM

Ouch.
Posted by: medic8r

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 02:07 PM

I was gonna call you Beer Guru, but then my mood turned, because, you know, Monday.

wink
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 02:37 PM

Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Ouch.

Ha-ha!
Posted by: medic8r

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 03:01 PM

That was kind of you to use that on Tom and not CatBrat.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 04:15 PM

What was this thread about, again?
Posted by: medic8r

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 05:07 PM

It was about Star Trek: the Next Generation coming out on Blu-ray, and how much the OP and I love that show.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: To what extreme? - 12/03/12 06:58 PM

Excellent work, everybody. laugh
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: To what extreme? - 06/16/13 10:46 PM

If I raise my screen and my loveseat I could maintain an ideal viewing height and get an M80 for a center.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: To what extreme? - 06/16/13 10:54 PM

Wicked thread revival!
I think every 6 months we should revive every thread.

Here's an old chestnut!
http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/49/m80ti_s_room_placement#Post49
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: To what extreme? - 06/17/13 02:14 AM

If that's a chestnut, then this one's a macadamia:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/12777/1
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: To what extreme? - 06/17/13 09:09 PM

Ya, yet another example of historical rampant thread hijack as a Yammie AVR question turned into a discussion on washing machine brakes squeaking.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: To what extreme? - 06/17/13 11:43 PM

I thought it belonged here as its what started the thread.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: To what extreme? - 02/15/14 05:25 PM

To draw a line or not to draw a line?
Revival # 2 starts now...
Posted by: MichaelTrottar

Re: To what extreme? - 02/25/14 06:12 AM

I think so when I consume any PEI moonshine i'll be on Murph's docking station. I might adhere to natural tea at Ian and Amie's.
Posted by: Murph

Re: To what extreme? - 02/25/14 07:55 AM

Well.... I was actually thinking about fulfilling a request earlier this winter to organize a PEI gathering this summer but then there was chatter encouraging another Axiom Anniversary Party. I didn't want to jeopardize that but you know your all welcome individually any day of any year.

I don't have a "dock" per say because my water stays shallow for too long but I do have a pad on the bank to sit and sip while watching the sunsets. I also don't have a view of Shania Twain's summer house across the bay. Which is yet another reason I simply can't compete with an Axiom party.
Posted by: medic8r

Re: To what extreme? - 02/25/14 02:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Murph
... you know you're all welcome individually any day of any year ...

Great! I choose tomorrow!
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: To what extreme? - 02/25/14 07:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Murph
I also don't have a view of Shania Twain's summer house across the bay.


Because the restraining order doesn't allow Murph within 10 miles of her. . .
Posted by: Murph

Re: To what extreme? - 02/27/14 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By: medic8r
Originally Posted By: Murph
... you know you're all welcome individually any day of any year ...

Great! I choose tomorrow!


I worked from home yesterday. You didn't show.

I did have a coyote wander through my yard though. I thought maybe you sent your spirit guide but he wasn't scribbling any notes.
Posted by: medic8r

Re: To what extreme? - 02/27/14 08:57 AM

LOL! Did he scratch in the dirt, perhaps? I told him that would be a good way to document his findings. If he pooped in your yard, that would also tell us his thoughts.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: To what extreme? - 02/27/14 10:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Murph
I did have a coyote wander through my yard though.

Was the coyote tall, balding, geeky and looking to steal your Matt Groening artwork?
Posted by: BobKay

Re: To what extreme? - 02/27/14 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Originally Posted By: Murph
I did have a coyote wander through my yard though.

Was the coyote tall, balding, geeky and looking to steal your Matt Groening artwork?


What a horrible thing to say about Tom!
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 02/27/14 12:17 PM

Seriously. I'm no thief. We'd "negotiate".

You are among my very favorite people, and I laughed heartily at this exchange. Thank you so much for brightening my day.
Posted by: BobKay

Re: To what extreme? - 02/27/14 05:20 PM

Tom, you KNOW that if you ever, EVER need someone to say some something bad about you for a laugh or, better yet, something bad about someone else, I will be there for you.
Posted by: medic8r

Re: To what extreme? - 02/27/14 05:43 PM

I know he will sleep better tonight with that knowledge, BobMuffin.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: To what extreme? - 02/28/14 12:46 AM

You're my Dorothy Parker.
Posted by: BobKay

Re: To what extreme? - 03/01/14 08:59 AM

I'll take that, though all round tables are a waste of space, even if they are Algonquin.

When the next Crimean War breaks again out next week, can I be Florence Nightingale the II?
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: To what extreme? - 03/01/14 12:17 PM

When I started this thread I had no clue just how far people will go to improve the sound of their room.
Now I closely watch a dozen or so threads on a half dozen forums just to see what people with more time and more money than me do to make those 1/2/3% improvements.
Me, I've got a few ideas still to try, beginning with reclaiming 12 square feet of my room by pushing the screen back a foot. I need to get the front wall finished first.
Already incredibly happy with the way its coming together.
My third sub should be here today or tomorrow and I'm looking forward to making 3 work again(the former non performer is acting as a drink holder).
For all the BS involved tweaking is still my favorite (and most hated) part of the hobby.
To think of all the hours and money put in for a moment lost/experienced at a subconscious level. Just to be there, in the moment.
Wish some of you were closer, I could use a friendly tease or advise (in the real world)sometimes.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: To what extreme? - 03/03/14 11:32 AM

Originally Posted By: brwsaw
When I started this thread I had no clue just how far people will go to improve the sound of their room.
Now I closely watch a dozen or so threads on a half dozen forums just to see what people with more time and more money than me do to make those 1/2/3% improvements.
Me, I've got a few ideas still to try, beginning with reclaiming 12 square feet of my room by pushing the screen back a foot. I need to get the front wall finished first.
Already incredibly happy with the way its coming together.
My third sub should be here today or tomorrow and I'm looking forward to making 3 work again(the former non performer is acting as a drink holder).
For all the BS involved tweaking is still my favorite (and most hated) part of the hobby.
To think of all the hours and money put in for a moment lost/experienced at a subconscious level. Just to be there, in the moment.
Wish some of you were closer, I could use a friendly tease or advise (in the real world)sometimes.


As a quick follow up to the post above...
I couldn't find my RCA splitter while trying to connect the new(used) sub and ended up using the cup holder (8" crap sub) which has 1 in 2 out. Worked great.
I decided to tweak the other subs with the 4th in the mix. It was already powered up so it made sense.
It also made for an interesting blend session. I got them playing nice most of the time but when there is a short low burst it sounds like they're all going to rattle themselves apart/split down the middle.
The new (used) sub is a bit of a let down though. I'm going to open it up then to check the connections inside and run it by itself to see exactly whats up.
Posted by: MichaelTrottar

Re: To what extreme? - 03/04/14 12:17 AM

I think so when I eat any PEI moonshine I'll be on Murph's docking place. I might follow organic tea at Ian and Amie's.