Hello. Just wanted to introduce myself to the community. I've been lurking here for over 2 years. My name is Nick. I'm from B.C. Canada. I'm 29 years old.

I have been a stereo and home theater enthusiast ever since my dad gave me my first pair of speakers(wharfedale) when I was 10.

My dad and lots of his family are always buying and selling used equipment. I've been through a decent amount of used equipment in my life. Wharfedale, Cerwin Vega, B&W, Bose, Sound Dynamics, Polk, Paradigm etc.

The only new speakers I've ever bought were when I was 19. I bought Paradigm's monitor 90p's. I really enjoyed those speakers.

I've only owned a used subwoofer once. Subwoofers are new territory for me. I have found a lot of great information on this site regarding this.

My current setup is pretty lackluster. My fronts are Cerwin Vega D9's, my rears are some sound dynamic bookshelf type speakers and my center is an old paradigm. All used, mismatched equipment. The cerwin vegas pound pretty good, but they sound quite muddy in my opinion. I try to negate this by slightly tweaking the equalizer I have them running through.

I run these speakers with a Yamaha RX-V1070 and a Rotel RMB-1095. I'm in need of a new a/v receiver for sure. My dad just bought a pioneer and I'm seriously considering buying one myself. Any thoughts on this?

I'm very happy with my Rotel though.

Sitting in my basement I also have 2 pairs of Realistic Mach One's and couple paradigm bookshelf speakers. I'm not really using them at the moment.

Onto better things...

It's high time I treated myself to something new and fresh. If all goes as planned, I'm going to be starting a new job next month and receiving a pension payout from the old job. I'm going to outright buy the Axiom M80 system.

I'm really questioning the EP800 subwoofer though. What are guys thoughts on the SVS PB12-plus or the PB13 ultra when compared to the EP800? They seem to be built very solid and the reviews are amazing. I found a few comparisons to the EP800 through google and it seems the SVS is the way to go when it comes to price. I have no doubt the EP800 is great, it just seems it should be cheaper. I can afford the EP800 no problem, but it "seems" like I'm getting more bang for my buck with the SVS line, no?

This is the setup I see happening:

2 Axiom M80's
2 Axiom Qs8
1 Axiom vp180
1 SVS pb12 or pb13
Rotel RMB-1095
Pioneer VSX-42
Oppo bdp-103

later on, i'd like to add more power amps, perhaps emotiva?

Compared to the equipment I'm used to, how do you think I'll like a setup like this? Any suggestions or tweaks?

I love to listen to lots of old classic rock and acoustic material. I can appreciate any genre though, especially if it sounds incredible. I'm a huge fan of testing the limits of a system with movies too. I'm starting to collect a decent blu ray library.

Well, I just want to say thanks in advance. I'm very excited.

Welcome. I'm excited for you, and I'm sure we all would like your honest opinion on speaker comparisons since you have such a varied listening experience.

Have you considered Axiom's newest flagship speaker, the LFR1100?

I have been very curious about the LFR1100's now that you mention it

They look astonishing.

I was hoping to buy an entire 5.1 channel system for under 5500 taxes in. I could buy those and then later on add on, but knowing me, my gf and my kids, it would be years before it's finally pieced together.

I'm very torn because I'm a huge music buff(and a musician myself) and they seem incredible for that.

Mad:

I live in beautiful Comox - welcome. I wish that I had your budget, ha!!

I've had Axioms in my house since the early 1990s (my AX2s are still on 'Lifetime Warranty') so I'm not one to be continually selling & buying gear in a never ending quest to find sound utopia - it doesn't exist. Being more pragmatic than I should be, I buy something decent & enjoy it for a long, long time. My 3 sets of new Axioms work for me.

While the LFRs would also be a good option, perhaps a better bang for the buck might be one of Axiom's fine HT packages. Although I have an astounding EP-400 specialty sub for music only, I believe that those who own the EP500 are more than happy with its powerful performance - especially if you get 2 (highly recommended).

Again welcome aboard, I think that you'll find that this is a rather pleasant place to hang out...

TAM

ah, hello my fellow b.c.er

I buy gear because it's always such a good deal and I can't say no to more speakers/equipment. lol. I end up selling it because I run out of storage space

The only new product I bought, the monitor 90ps, I regret selling. I sold them because I was really behind on bills and young and dumb at the time.

This next system I plan on buying is definitely going to be my last purchase for many many years, so I want to make sure I can do the best possible.

You offer good advice. I'm eyeing up the Epic M80 system. Plus I've read rumours that a DSP unit will be available for the M80v3 and the Vp180v3

I'm starting to really lean towards a SVS pb13-ultra sub in place of an axiom sub though.

I'd love to hear from more people that think I should pay a little bit more and stick with either an axiom ep500 or ep800

Welcome Mad!
Just one quick thought about sub selection is that an Axiom sub can match the finish on the rest of the system, improving the WAF.

I haven't compared them, but anecdotally, many say that there is a "texture" to the Axiom subs that is missing with other subs, making them better for music.

Just about all subs from reputable companies are fantastic performers & are all competitive with each other. There is a lot of technology that produces awesome clean bass output .

My twin mid-fi 10" Velodynes in my HT shake & rattle my house with authority & often to annoyance - buzzing & rattling furnace ducting inside the walls & ceilings just doesn't sound very good. I wouldn't want anymore, but that's just me.

It often comes down to features, aesthetics & price point.

Axioms generally are thought to be very musical (whatever that means) & to me, my EP-400 has that in spades, especially considering its diminutive size. For me, I didn't want to live with another black cube in my living room.

For HT, a bigger sub or preferably 2 would be best...

TAM

Hello Mark

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I just sourced a SVS PB13-ultra from here in Canada, shipped to my doorstep all taxes included, would cost me $2266. It seems like it's built like a tank, great reviews, etc. But it only comes in black. I was hoping to get my Axiom in Cherry. The WAF definitely comes into play here. lol

She wasn't very happy when I told her the ep800 was nearly 4 feet tall. lol

Interesting on that note about "texture". I'd say the setup is going to be used more for music, so that's important to me.

I'll keep digging and researching as much I can. Again, thanks to all that have replied

hmm another person on the musical quality of the axiom sub. Thank you.

And I love earth rumbling, make my house fall apart, bass when it comes to HT. I'm very new to the subwoofer world.

I was reading that having two subs can be difficult to setup because it's difficult to get them in phase with the other speakers while trying to get them in phase with each other. Any merit to this?


If I was to go that route, I could get the Axiom M80 system with 2 ep500 subs for $5,432.39. Would these give me more thunderous bass then a single ep800 or a single SVS pb13-ultra? My understanding is that adding an extra subwoofer only distribute more even bass to the room.

Detractors argue that 'texture' is audible distortion.

At the volumes (up to 85 Db or so) that I listen to, which is so much lower than the max that the EP-400 can produce, I can't imagine that there is any distortion involved. My sub is not being stressed at all with the way that I use it for music only.

The musical abilities of this little box are simply outstanding & I'm more than happy to have purchased it - no regrets at all. I expect that its qualities would also be inherent in Axioms larger subs.

TAM

i've been doing tons of reading this morning.

I know I wouldn't be unhappy with the SVS pb13 ultra, but I'm going to go with the Axiom EP800 anyway.

My reasons

1) It'll match the rest of my axiom system. Great Waf points
2) The general consensus I've read is it's great for music, which is more important to me then HT
3) Apparently it can go real low, I crave an earthquake experience
4) it's supporting Canadian jobs
5) maybe there is better for less, but for all the above reasons I don't see why not to go with it.

Should be placing my order for the epic m80 system in the first week of March if all goes as planned. I'm traveling to Edmonton on February 1st and I already am in talks with someone on this board to go listen to his m80 system.

I'm very excited. In the meantime, I'll be trying to pick out a new a/v reciever. Any suggestions? I'm looking at pioneer. My power amp, a Rotel RMB-1095, says it can do 330w @ 4ohms all 5 channels driven. Will this be sufficient for now?

Mad, I'll throw in one more good reason: You get a 5% discount off the entire order if you order 5 items.... which you seem to have already decided to do!

yep, for sure, good call

I'm sold on it.

Right now I'm reading up on receivers and the difference between mcacc vs audyssey.

I'm leaning towards purchasing a Pioneer Elite series down the road.

I really do need a new one. My receiver is easy 10-15 years old.

To me, setting up 2 subs is easier than 1 due to the fact that both help to fill in if there is a hole or null in the seating position. That's why I went that way.

For my twin Velos, it was a no-brainer. Put them in their place, run Audyssey (or whatever) till it is happy & enjoy.

During my first Audyssey setup, with my Velo volumes set to 4 of 10, it was way out of whack at those levels - too high. After repeated runs, I ended up at 2.5 to get them down to the proper level range.

Although some people may have valid room problems that require more drastic intervention, most of what I see is that many tend to over complicate matters & end up chasing their tails.

I appreciate your desire for huge bass; however, I find that much of it in movies is excessive, unrealistic for what is on the screen & quite frankly annoying to times. One example is the slowly approaching steam locomotive scene near the end of '3:10 to Yuma'. I'm a bit of train nut & like to be around them at every opportunity; however, I've never experienced anything like that in real life. Way over the top, but entertaining I guess.

Just 1 man's view...

TAM

hehe interesting analogy with the trains, I work with trains at CN

I would agree it to be a tad unrealistic at times. But that same "unrealisticness", if you will, is how it's portrayed in the imax theaters. And aren't many of us trying re create the theater experience in the comfort of our homes?

It's a sensation, maybe over the top for some, but I enjoy it

You definitely raise some valid points. I've never thought of it like that. I think I'll start with one EP800 and if I find it necessary, down the road I'll add another or maybe even a ep500 will suffice.

Mad, do you have a preference...sealed(EP800) vs ported(SVS)?

no preference. I've heard both, but have owned neither. Not a lot of experience with subwoofers.

What would you recommend?

You can't go wrong with either imo. Have you checked out Funky Waves? they/he is located in southern BC and makes some serious subwoofers too...

One advantage of going Axiom sub, say an EP500, is there are so many different vinyl coverings for it. I got mine about 2 years ago in custom vinyl called Cinnamon Beech. It goes very good with my hardwood floors. All my other speakers are black and I'll have one on the back wall that will be white.

Mad Chesser, I purchased my set of Axiom speakers last month and I went with 2 M80's,1 VP180, and 4 QS8's. I already had an SVS PC12-PLUS which I liked a lot so I decided to keep it instead of selling it and getting the EP800. I can say that the SVS subs are very good in my opinion and they do work well with the Axiom speakers. I also considered going with cherry for my speakers but I ended up sticking with black. They look good with my SVS sub and black with match everything, so it looks good with my furniture. My Sub is the cylinder instead of the box and it is about the same height as the M80's so they look good next to each other.

hey thanks for that, took a quick peek and they seem pretty nice. I will do some more reading on them. Thanks for the link.

cat: Hey, that i didn't know about the covers. I'm going to look into that. thanks That definitely contributes to pleasing the wife

colson: Very nice. Sounds like a great setup. I think I've ultimately decided on getting the EP800.

I might change my mind by the time I order, but we'll see. I'm pretty certain I want the ep800 now. I know I won't be unhappy even if it costs me a bit more then other comparable subs.

How are you enjoying the m80's?

I love the M80's they sound great. I replaced a 23 year old pare of Bose 601 series 3 speakers. I was definitely in need of an up grade. On a side note I also replaced my 10 year old Pioneer receiver with a new Pioneer Elite SC67 which I am also loving.

You will definitely need a new receiver to handle all of the wonderful sound options that are available today - too many actually.

Last year I snagged a Denon AVR from BB Canada on line - it was the last one on clearance with a list price of $800 that I got for $450. Bargains can be found if you watch & wait.

I've never owned a Denon before & after I figured it all out, I am really happy with it. These beasts, regardless of brand, are really quite complicated these days, so expect a learning curve & some frustration, ha! Lots of assistance can be found here though.

Funk Waves has a great reputation as well. I believe that they are on the Sunshine Coast - a misnomer at this time of the year...

TAM

Thanks for all the input

My dad just bought the pioneer sc-67(very nice amp you got yourself colson :)) and I've got to play around with it a bit here and there. Like you say, wow, there is an incredible amount of options on these receivers nowadays.

I'm definitely going to take you up on your offer in regards to assistance on these boards lol

After I drop this 5 grand, I'm going to have to start to sell all my old equipment and I'll be putting that towards an Oppo player and a new receiver.

I'll potentially be selling 5 pairs of speakers(10 total), one sherwood power amp, my yamaha receiver and two old equalizers.

Now on that note, an external equalizer will not be necessary anymore hey?

Welcome, Nick.

No, with Audyssey or MCACC, you don't need an external EQ.

I think Denon and Onkyo are delivering really good value nowadays. I'm predisposed to the Audyssey system rather than something proprietary, though. YMMV. Shop for features and price.

I think you'll be really happy with the Axiom setup you've chosen.

Some years ago, I had the chance to hear - back-to-back, in the same room - an EP600 and PB13-ultra. Obviously, those are not the current models you're looking at, but it was a very interesting experience. I have an older SVS PB12-ISD. I think SVS subs are terrific.

AND there was a definite signature sound to the SVS. To me, it was heavier and fatter. Though the test was blind, all four of us could easily identify each sub. The Axiom was drier and more nuanced. I preferred the EP600 and that's what the forum member elected to keep after extended auditions of both in his home. Both were stunning.

I believe that Axiom sub design philosophy places a higher priority on lower distortion than some other manufacturers. There is a general belief that - at very low frequencies - distortion is less audible and/or less objectionable. I'm less sure.

How big is your room? How many people are watching movies with you? Listening to music with you?

You might start with an EP500 and see how that goes. Axiom will let you upgrade during the trial period for free. If the EP500 doesn't go low enough, you can get an EP600 or EP800. If it doesn't cover enough area in your home, you can get a second one. It's pretty hard to model/predict how your ROOM will interact with the rest of your system.

Have fun!

Thanks for the great reply.

I'll definitely be picking up either a Pioneer, Denon or Onkyo. Sometimes the sale prices at even our local stores can be quite good for all 3 of these. I just have to decide if Audyssey or MCACC is the way to go.

Is it true that Audyssey is easier to use, yet your either accept it or turn it off...no real fine calibration is available?

I have no real experience with either besides toying around for a few minutes with my father's Pioneer sc-67.

I really enjoyed your take on the subs. I'm pretty sold on getting an EP800. I'm sure I'd enjoy a SVS as well, but for all the reasons listed in an earlier post, I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the EP800.

If I invite friends over, 3 to 4 people probably will be the max. Though generally, it will be just me and the wife. I don't have a dedicated home theater room yet, for I rent, so I can't quite make it mine. I plan to buy eventually and I'm looking forward to embarking on creating a true HT room in the basement. This is a dream of mine. I'm hoping to get many years out of this system I plan to buy.

The main living room is 16X12X8, but to the left of the living room is a big open dining room that leads to the kitchen. The living room and kitchen are seperated by a 6 foot wall. And then the "back wall" of the living room has 3 open archways that look over the stairways leading to the downstairs and entrance. It's all hardwood laminate flooring

I do know that I particularly like the acoustics of this room. We just moved here and the sound from my system from one house to another is astonishing. The sound sounds less muddled and more free to "breathe" then in the last house. I don't get any nasty reverberation or anything which is nice. I don't have to turn it as loud to feel the same experience as in the last house. It seems to sound clearer and get loud easier if that makes sense

For music, it's usually just me. But once in a blue moon, I like to throw a big party and for example, last Halloween I had about 15 people over at one point. The wife and her girlfriends starting putting all sorts of heavy club songs on the playlist...my cerwin vega D9's handled that crap great lol

On moments like those, it's rare mind you, I like to show off. Especially if I've been drinking I'm hoping to impress people with the M80 system with a EP800.

But more then that, I'm looking for something I can't describe for ME. A quality of sound imaging, quality and pristine highs with warm mids, incredible deep, smooth, but not excessive bass. I want to be excited about my music again. I want to hear things I haven't heard before with my large music collection.

I should also note that at times I love to hear my music VERY loud. I will tweak my equalizer and try to push my cerwin vegas to the very edge of what they are comfortable with, back it off just a tad, and listen to that level comfortably for awhile.

I should note that I've only blown a fuse on my speaker once in my entire life and I have never damaged any of my speakers or equipment...yet

I'm no audiophile. I'm a huge enthusiast hoping to expand my knowledge and experience a little further. And when I have everything dialed in and sounding incredible, I want to show it off so others can go buy it and experience it for themselves.

I definitely want to help audition these for people. There is no one in my area.

Just looking online, costco, for a new tv stand

Oh crap. Another "Nick" on the forums. What is this place coming to?

(welcome by the way and congrats on the new system)

lol we own the joint do we?

I fortunately have my 3 setups in irregularly shaped rooms. While it is more aesthetically difficult to set up systems to make them pleasing to the eye, more often than not, nasty things like bass standing waves & nulls tend not to be as prevalent.

Everything is a trade-off it seems...

TAM

Hi Mad, looks like you're gonna have a killer setup soon! The only things I would mention that I did not see when reading this thread are:
1 - have you considered a vertical center channel? - the VP180 is awesome from what everyone says (have not heard it myself), BUT 3 vertical M80's across the front would be ideal and slightly cheaper, assuming you have the height for it. I started with a horizontal center and switched after a year or so to a vertical and am happier for it.
2 - EP800 orientation - you mentioned the height, but if it helps with the WAF or placement, note that you can order it in a horizontal configuration.

FWIW I have a Pioneer Elite (SC05) that has been going strong from day one and very much like these receivers. Almost all of my minor complaints with it have been addressed in the new models.

I also have experience with both SVS PC13 Ultra and my Axiom EP500. Based on this experience I think you'd be happy with either, but I am jonesing for an EP800 upgrade myself one day.

Good luck with the upcoming bonus.

Cheers,

Nick, welcome. Your proposed list of components is excellent with one clear exception: the Pioneer VSX-42 wouldn't be suited to your use. Justifiably you're satisfied with your Rotel 1095 and plan to continue with it. It has more than enough maximum power output for any reasonable use with the speakers you're getting. The problem is that the VSX-42 doesn't have the pre-outs to feed it voltage.

A receiver with pre-outs should be chosen and my suggestion would be to also select a receiver with Audyssey auto-calibration and room correction systems. While some manufacturers include their proprietary systems for this(e.g., Pioneer MCACC and Yamaha YPAO), it's notable that manufacturers such as Denon, Integra, Marantz, NAD and Onkyo have selected Audyssey in preference to their own proprietary technology. An important factor is the lack of specific correction to the sub channel(possibly needing it the most)in MCACC, but which Audyssey performs. My suggestion would be one of the Denon or Onkyo units. If you were buying in the U.S. I'd pick the factory refurbished Onkyo 709 for about $450 from Accessories4less, but unfortunately they can't ship to Canada. A suitable Denon or Onkyo unit would be available in Canada, but at a substantially higher price.

One comment you made is a bit puzzling, i.e., that later you'd "like to add more power amps". There appears to be no good purpose to this since your 1095 is more than sufficient for your 5.1 setup, and if you're considering back surrounds in addition to your QS8 sides, or front height/width speakers, whatever full-featured new receiver you get would be able to drive them without difficulty.

Hello and thanks for the great reply.

You are totally right. Later on after I posted that, I started looking at the receiver's specs more closely and realized exactly what you stated, no pre outs. Thanks for letting me know. I would have felt stupid if I bought that. lol

If I go Pioneer, it will have to be the SC series. They are pricy.

I find your take on Audyssey very informative. I would think sub level is important too. I will definitely start looking around. Thanks again. Great input I'm getting here.

Onto the "power amps" comment I made earlier. My Rotel is rated at 330w @ 4ohm. While this is more then sufficient, I've always liked to have lots of head room. Maybe it's a placebo effect, but I've always swore it makes a difference. Maybe it just makes my penis feel bigger. haha. In either case, I was thinking on either a 2 channel or 3 channel power amplifier, dedicated to the fronts. Another company I'm new to, emotiva, seems very nicely priced. Xpa2 seems really nice.

It's definitely not a must have. I'll be very happy with the Rotel for now. Just something for down the road, perhaps.

I need to focus on a new receiver and a new player. I've heard great things about Oppo on these boards. Any others I should look at?

For the type of receiver I'm looking for, I can expect to pay around a 1000. ouch. lol Here's one example perhaps?

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/d...3b6607a297ben02

I should make note I'm looking for a 7.2 channel for future expansion. All these speakers and equipment are literally something that's going to be with me for a long long time, which is why I'm being a little OCD about it all

cb919: no, I never considered a 3rd m80 for a center. How is this cheaper? I think for general aesthetics and WAF, I'll be going horizontal, the vp180. Thought about even downgrading to the vp160 to save some space, but I doubt it.

So far as adding/changing amplifiers you would have to double your power to even have the system sound like it gets louder, so in your case you need to look at 600W or more @4ohm amps and even then it is only a few dbs louder; not really worth the dollars spent IMO. When/if your present amp breaks down this would be the time to upgrade.

FYI, the VP160, IMO, isn't really a downgrade, it has a different configuration that gives you better off axis listening, so if oyu are going to have seats that are outside of the front main positions you might want to consider the VP160.

So far as the avr goes I would look for the features you want and go with it, the amp power doesn't matter for you as you are strictly using it as a pre/pro. I really liked the feature set on the Onkyo 818, recently on sale around Calgary for under $900. It has Audyssey XT32(cheapest price point for this I believe), networking ability etc. The amps inside this unit are no slouch either.

hey, thanks for the heads up on the vp160, i'll definitely have to look at the more closely. thanks.

I found a Onkyo on Ebay

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Onkyo-TX-NR709-7-...=item4ac050112a

100 for shipping, but still way cheaper then what I'd pay up here

Thanks for all the other tips. I agree I'll take a look at that onkyo

You all have been so helpful in guiding me through this!

I will know by the end of next week if this purchase is going to happen for sure. Crossing my fingers

cb919:

Just realized why you meant an m80 would be cheaper. I don't think the wife would like it though. lol

Have you seen this, it should be free delivery

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/onky...19e41660b42en02

or this

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/onky...d5744ba64a6en02

oh wow, I really like the price point and features of the first link. That's going on my favourites. Thank you

Mad, I only have a moment but want to throw one thing out there:

Buy your speakers for long-term; they're likely going to be amazing you 20 years from now.

Electronics, on the other hand, are changing constantly. I, too, got into this at a young age.... though I',m pushing 50 to your 30. But receivers USED to be something that you could hold onto for 10-15 years. Now, the standards and codecs are changing much more quickly.

I see your point about wanting to buy equipment that will work in a future theater of a purchased home, but I think you MAY wish to consider buying a minimum receiver with the features you want (yes, make sure it has pre-outs) because there's a good possibility that if you buy a house, build a theater and then want to equip it perfectly, there will be a "better" receiver or pre-pro that you might want at that time.

I have to admit, being a bit old-school, that I find it disheartening that I want to replace my $1200 receiver that I just bought a few years ago! (not enough HDMIs, no 3-D, etc.).

The good news is that the Rotel amp should add capability to whatever receiver you buy now.....or ten years from now.

I agree with Mark. Speakers will far outlast your electronics. My HT is only 3-4 years old and was built from scratch with all new equipment, but I was tempted by Jay's (JakeWash) Best Buy link. Not thinking of changing my speakers at all, except for adding an EP800 , but I would like some of the updated features in the new AVR's even though mine is going strong!

I understand about WAF and space for the VP180 or VP160, just wanted to point out the vertical center option to you as I don't think most people when purchasing are aware of or consider it seriously. I know I had never even heard of the concept when I 1st bought my Axioms. Center channels were horizontally arrayed and that's all there was to it, never considered there was an alternative.

BTW, the QS8's make for an incredible surround experience.

I hope you get to place that order soon!

I've been a bigger fan of the Pioneers and MCACC than most around here. I had a Pioneer Elite and got used to it first. Then decided to upgrade to a Denon3312ci. I've never got the sound the way I like it using Audyssey. Audyssey is not as tweakable as MCACC. If you've grown used to having an equalizer, MCACC might be the better way to go. They both have an equalizer that you can tweak manually. The difference is with Audyssey, you have to turn the benefits of Audyssey off before you can use the manually adjustable EQ, with MCACC, you can leave the MCACC turned on and adjust away. All a matter of preference, of course. I seemed to have more runaway bass with the Pioneer creating bass heavy spots near the corners of the room. I have a Pioneer SC-67 on a delivery truck headed my way. I'll have it by the end of next week. Then I can a/b test the Denon vs Pioneer all I want. It might even surprise me an find I like the Denon better. Won't know until a couple of weeks from now.

If you had kept that tube TV like I told you to, you wouldn't have that problem now would you.

On subs:

PB13 ultra +- 3db 19-150 Hz., $2,200 to your door
EP800 +- 1db 13-150 Hz., $2400 to your door

On performance, I'd say the EP800 wins hands down. Size is another story, but if I had that kind of money to spend on a sub, I would go for the EP800.

Edit: Oops, got the price wrong on the PB13 ultra, its 2,000 I would still spend the extra on an EP800 if I was going to spend in that range. 'To your door' in Canada is probably a bit more.

Very good replies from everyone,

Mark: What you said makes complete sense. I never looked at it like that. I definitely won't be acquiring another sub(so I don't need a .2) for awhile, and I won't be acquiring extra surrounds for awhile either. When I have my own home, I'll begin to research for a good a projector and screen, lighting and the like. That will be when I start running a 7.2 system.

That is at least 5 years away and like you say, that will be the time to buy what's hot and new on the market.

So on that note, all I really need for a receiver is:

1) 5.1
2) hdmi, which is a given
3) Audyssey or MCACC
4) pre outs
5) support for all the good formats/codecs
6) a bonus would be support for .flac files

Looking around this morning online, it seems tough to find something cheap with pre outs. The Onkyo NR717 seems to be my best bet so far. If anyone can give me a few more links with all the above features, it would be very helpful

cb919: I would have never thought about a vertical center unless you brought it. I would love to experiment with that and hear the difference in the front soundstage. On your comment about the QS8's; I'm very excited. Besides an old bose system I owned, I've never owned dedicated surrounds. Everything I've ever used for surrounds wasn't designed to be a surround and is at least 15 years old. I'm sure the technology for surrounds has taken quite a leap in that time.

My father has went ape shit with a brand new Cerwin Vega system. He has the 2 xls215's for mains but what I found overkill is he bought 2 cmx210's for rears. He also bought 2 XLS 12S subwoofers. He's got one of their biggest center channels, don't remember the model. Bought the Pioneer SC-67 receiver.

Is having a tower speaker beneficial in anyway for a rear surround speaker.

He's got all this jammed into a tiny square living room. lol he's broken my mom's china, detatched siding on the outside of the home, and even popped the big windows out of their seals. lol it's ridiculous, but awesome.

Cat: I would love to hear your comparisons in a few weeks See, I like the idea to be able to "tweak". I enjoy messing around with stuff like that. On that note, someone else mentioned that with MCACC you can't adjust sub levels and that, that adjustment is most important in some cases. What's your take on this? Right now, I'm leaning towards MCACC because I don't like the "take it or leave it" concept of Audyssey.

fred: Thanks for your take on the subs. The PB13-ultra seems like such a heavy hitter, built like a tank. I like that But the EP800 seems great too, made in canada(supporting canadian jobs is important to me), will match the rest of the system and when I hear people like yourself say "on performance, it wins hands down"...I know I will be VERY happy with it. Thank you

one a side note, Sonicboomaudio said with all taxes and shipping, to my door it would be $2266 for the pb13-ultra

This is bad...I could be working myself up for EXTREME disappointment. lol

I hope not. I find out by the end of this coming week if I got the new job. It's looking pretty good from what I've heard from sources close to the hiring process. Other people who they didn't want have already received their rejection letters. I have not. And they have 10 positions to fill and their were only 16 interviews.

If I got the job, the pension payout from old job is certain. This purchase is certain if I get the job

Crossing my fingers

Here's an interesting thread I found regarding Audyssey VS MCACC

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1050097/official-denon-avr-1909-789-thread/3180#post_15252779

Welcome Mad, a couple of things worth considering would be if you were going with either of the standard finishes, it would be more economical to purchase B stock for your set up. This is what I chose to do for my so to be system . I inquired with Noreen at Axiom, about the general defects or flaws which is typically associated with B stock speakers. Noreen stated to me that more times than not, it's either visible excess glue about the drivers, or nicks or scratches on the drivers themselves. These are very small blemishes that can't be detected from greater than four feet away with the grilles off.

In my case I was debating between a projector, or a Mitsubishi 92" screen in my family room. Funds and future projector technology will make me wait before I go down that path, so the 92" is in my immediate plans. If I had gone with the projector though, I was going to go with dual M22's as my center channel. As cb919 has stated, some lean towards a vertical over a horizontal if possible. You have a capable power amp which would allow you to wire in series using only one channel. When it comes to audio able sounds, these bookshelf speakers are sup positively giant for their size. It would be possible to toe them out a bit for some great in room dispersion. You won't get a great deal of bass from this center channel set up, but in my option it won't be missed. Let the sub or subs do the heavy lifting. The M22's will then be responsible for clean, clear, crisp dialog which it can easily handle.

This option may or may not work for you in your space though. The price for two M22's would be much less than purchasing lets say a VP-180. This along with the first option, would save you several hundreds of dollars. Which you could then pocket, or might be used for that second sub you might be wanting. Any way you chose to go I believe you have gotten some great advice here on this thread. Good luck and good listening.

If dual M22s won't fit, then dual M2s just might.

Virtually the same sonic signature as the M22s & two of them would be more than adequate output wise...

TAM

Hello hmm interesting take on the M22's for a center. Has anyone else on this board done something like this?

And you say this can be properly wired with my power amp? Can you explain how I would do this with only one center channel input on my Rotel?

Just like speakers are designed and designated to be "surrounds" doesn't the same hold true for center channels? I'm open to learning more. As I see it right now, the vp160 or vp180, for example, are designed specifically for center channel duties, designed to work harmoniously with m60s or m80s to create a seamless soundstage.

I like the idea of saving money on a center and putting it towards the new receiver I need.

On your note about B stock. I'm very ocd when it comes to nicks, scratches, glue, etc. I thought about it, and my logical mind says to buy b stock. Unfortunately, my logical mind isn't strong enough :P I won't be able to do it. lol I've already budgeted for the system new.

On your cable take the positive lead to the positive binding post on one of the M22's. Then the negative lead to the negative binding post of the second M22, then add a jumper cable from the negative to the positive binding posts of the two speakers.

Well, I've made a personal decision that I want Pioneer's MCACC.

Base model to have pre outs is the sc-61. Listed for $1399. I already had an offer from a local store for $980.

Once I get word whether this is happening or not, I'm going to begin selling all my speakers and equipment, work some overtime and purchase the amp before the Axioms even arrive.

My minds made up. I know I'll be happy with it. Thank you to all. This thread is still opening my mind to great ideas. I can't thank you enough.

Now I'm trying to research this whole center channel thing.

So far, future system will be

Pioneer sc-61
2 M80's
1 Vp160
2 QS8
1 EP800
PS3
Oppo bdp-103

But right now, debating on the center channel...

I've never heard of that. This is considered safe and common?

Very cool. I'm using a paradigm bookshelf speaker for a center right now. I'll mess around with two of them and give it a try today

Yes, think of it as just jump starting a car, the same principal here. You start out on the positive lead on the running vehicle, and then return to the negative lead on the running vehicle(starting out on the positive lead on the amp, then returning to the negative lead on the amp).

My 3 sets of Axiom speakers & Axiom stands are 'B Stock'.

With mine, flaws if there are any, are virtually invisible. I wondered why they were classed as 'B Stock' in the first place. Axiom is quite anal about this & perhaps they use big magnifying glasses during their inspection process.

Good way to save some bucks IMHO as it is to buy a HT package...

TAM

I agree, just leave the grilles on and forget about it.

I didn't see any flaws with the grills off.

I must retract my last somewhat - I found a small flaw on 1 of my M3s. They were 'B Stock' Real Wood veneer that I won on auction as the only bidder (when that was happening at Axiom). I realized a tremendous savings - over $200 for the pair. I found it in the veneer (undoubtedly from the veneer factory) after protracted, close inspection under strong light.

Again, I was astounded that this was considered to be 'B Stock' - absolutely invisible in its normal placement in the room. I would defy anyone to find it...

TAM

Welocome to the forum Nick
See you on the 2nd

You are auditioning his system? Baaad idea. You're going to need a LOT more $$$ after you see his real rosewood system.

I run dual M2 centers (one above, one below the display). It works very well and they integrate well with the M80.

You are correct, though, that center channels are purpose built. In this case the issue they address is form factor. Most people cannot accommodate a vertical center (let alone two) in their HT setup.

Thank you I'm looking forward to this opportunity

edit: just found your link to your setup...drooling. Nice to see it. Wow, I can't believe how incredible that setup is. Wow. Can't wait

fred: I didn't realize he had the rosewood. I was already drooling over that on the axiom site. The wife was too. Great WAF points. Just can't afford it.

Thanks for the info on the center. I can't accommodate for it right now, but in my future setup for sure. I'll definitely have to look at that option down the road

This page has the latest pic of my system. It has 3 m22's across the top, with a second set across the bottom, except the bottom center is an in-cabinet Vp160.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=354217&page=69

My Sc-67 is $1330 from Amazon. I'm sure you can pick up an Sc-61 for much less.

wow i like So these new pioneer amps have no problem eq'ing multiple center channels?

amazon.ca, bestbuy.ca both have no pioneer elite besides the vsx series.

found this on ebay

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NEW-PIONEER-ELITE...=item416f86032a

It would be 100-200 cheaper to buy it on ebay, compared to my local store.

That's same price as I was thinking. It was the $1300 you mentioned. It i was paying $1300, I'd get the 67.

So far I've had no trouble driving double mains and center at high volume with the Pioneer or the Denon.

You are in for a treat, he also has Denon's flagship separates running his system. If you're heading 3hrs south you can drop by my place.

Now that you mention it...I'm headed to edmonton for feb 1, stag party(im the best man), then on the 3rd, the wedding party will be driving to canmore for the wedding. Ill be driving solo I would love to arrange something

Looking forward to your visit. I'll probably learn a few things from you and I hope the audition goes well.

Nick, yes a vertical M22 makes a fine center channel speaker. The only sense in which some speakers are "designed specifically" for center use is the the one Fred has mentioned: the horizontal form factor meets the aesthetic or space requirements of many(not me). A vertical speaker can have an inherently wider and smoother horizontal dispersion.

I didn't catch what led to the "have no problem eq'ing multiple center channels" comment, but there's only one center channel. If more than one speaker is used in the center channel any calibration or room eq settings have to go through the one channel to the speakers identically. If the speakers are the same model and positioned similarly in relation to the listener, this works quite well.

I'm flattered you say that, but I don't have much to teach. Just a big enthusiast. From the looks of your setup, I'd say it's quite the other way around. I can't wait to chat to you about your setup

It'll go great. I'm told I'm a great people person. It'll be a fun visit together I'm sure. Anytime two enthusiasts can get together and listen to great equipment, it'll always be good I have absolutely no friends I can talk passionately about stereo with. My close friends all laugh at me being "obsessed" with stereo. lol

I try to tell them I'm a greenhorn when it comes to HT. I don't even scratch the surface of "obsessed" lol

That's kind of what I was getting at I think. That makes sense.

Still, for some reason my mind is trying to convince me that the center channel needs to be "horizontal" for wide dispersion to mix properly with the left and right mains properly. In typing that, I realize it's false. But the idea of multiple bookshelf speakers for centers is a very new notion for me.

I definitely believe you. I should strongly consider a pair of m22s for centers.

Not necessarily a "pair". A single one works well.

yep for sure, I hear what you are saying. Thanks I'm browsing the site right now

edit: on that note, I think the wife would much more appreciate a vp160 or vp180. lol she doesn't seem to keen on the idea

She's not to happy about the ep800 either, but that's a must for me

So quick question to all the wonderful people here...

For a center channel, which would sound better with the M80's, in your opinion(obviously the room plays a factor, so this is just best guess)

1 or 2 M3 bookshelves below tv
1 or 2 M22 bookshelves below tv
1 Vp160 below tv
1 vp180 below tv

There is a small love seat pretty much directly in line with the tv, about 8 to 10 feet back, but people also sit on the large couch which is along the long wall to the right of the love seat. So there will be off axis listening.

Since the 5 1/4" mid-range of the M22(and VP160)is the same as that in the M80s, that would be a preferable match. Note that the VP160 configuration can be viewed as a vertical center flanked by woofers to handle the bass.

If the center would have the tweeter at a position significantly different from ear level, it would be good to tilt it slightly so as to point at the ears.

Nick Send me a PM and we can try to set something up while you are in Alberta. I have M22's and my VP160 that you can have a listen to, this should give you a better idea of what everyone has been talking about.

I don't think it is necessary or even a good idea to have TWO bookshelf speakers below the TV unless you had a very wide room and could meaningfully separate them horizontally from not only each other but also the left and right speakers. When people here talk about using a pair of bookshelf speakers for center duty, they are almost always referring to one above and one below the screen.

Both the VP160 and 180 are terrific speakers. The best match for the M80s is another M80, but that's not practical for most people. I'd pass on the M3 and get a single M22 as John suggested if your SO is vertical center tolerant.

I recently changed from a VP100 to an M2 center and like it very much. I owe the forum a report on that.

The thing you need to understand is that the principles of sound reproduction aren't inherently different for the center. If a horizontal array was "best" then we'd have all kinds of main pairs produced that way. A narrower baffle is actually much better for treble dispersion and the only reason center channel speakers look the way they do is to more easily integrate with the form factor of commonly surrounding objects.

To easily fit under/over TV's, which is the main reason why it is so difficult to get vertical designs to 'work' as a center.

Exactly.

Very sound logic tom. That makes sense.

if vertical isn't a problem, you feel a M80 > M22 > a vp160 or vp180?

I've been reading so much lately.

Found a particularly exhausting thread to read

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1337283/any-thoughts-on-axiom-audio-speakers/90

Ian and brent actually are posting responses. I like how they get involved with the discussion, you can tell they are passionate about what they do and you can tell they are bothered by what some of the people are saying in that thread.

I felt one particular post by Ian owned them. lol


What I keep hearing about in that thread, aside from all the technical stuff is that the M80s, to some, are excessively bright.

I read in one good review for the m80s, that the high end seemed slightly shrill, but after being worn in, they fell in love with them...short version.

Your take on the high end of the M80's?

edit: with further reading, I kind of answered my own question

"In closing I would like to touch on this Axiom loudspeakers are all bright comment that a few individuals have mentioned in this post; one of them numerous times. We cannot control or even begin to surmise on every person's individual experience and/or motives when listening to and commenting on our products. We would love it to be 100% positive but it will not be. There will always be some small percentage where it just doesn't work out for any number of reasons. That is why we have a 30 day return policy. Instead we monitor for any sort of repetition of improvement suggestions. We then check them against our lab results and in double blind listening tests against competitor product. Last September we had a 30 year anniversary get-together party here at Axiom. It was really fun by the way. We had factory tours, engineering seminars, and wrapped it up with a live band playing dockside. One thing we did do was have a blind listening test running for the entire day and anyone could sign up for a time to participate. It was between an Axiom and a B&W. We had 26 people participate. I just went through all the comments and found that there were seven comments that contained words like bright, harsh, and sibilant. Six of these comments were a criticism of the B&W and one was of the Axiom. This is consistent with the results we get in other competitor double blind listening tests we do. Axiom products are not overly bright by any comparison we can find and certainly not by the amplitude response measurements. That said they are not purposely laid back either. We go after neutrality and that will mean if it was a harsh recording, it will come out that way"

I have a lot of respect for this company. I'm definitely sold

If you value your sanity, don't spend too much time at AVS.

I think any of those choices for a center would be great.

The VP180 is gigantic. Seriously.

I was at the 30th anniversary and participated in the blind test. We didn't know what speakers were involved. It was a blast.

Alright, I know this thread must be getting exhausting for some. And what's worse, this purchase might not happen as soon as I hope if I don't get this pay out. I think my chances are good though.

I just like to be educated on everything I can be.

A couple of final questions regarding customization of axiom products.

1. Vinyl finish decent? I'm interested in the Vermont Maple

2. Audio Jewelry(this term is new to me...i don't get it?). I've done tons of biwiring in previous setups and always thought it was an advantage. With further reading, it seems Axiom believes it makes no difference, but offer the option for customer satisfaction mainly. Should I get the option or no? Die Cast woofer baskets or standard? What's the difference if any?


Again, I just want to give a big shout out to all the people participating in my "torture myself" thread. lol And I truly am torturing myself when I can't even place an order yet. My eyes are going buggy from spending so much time on the computer reading and scouring forums and articles.

Yeah I read that entire thread, that's enough for me. I'm no audiophile, but the jist I got was the people are spending way to much time measuring things, that in my opinion, aren't things people will hear anyway.

I think like with any hobby, people get to carried away in the details.

It's like the guy who loves video games and thinks becoming a professional video game tester would be a good idea. You learn of all the most microscopic details and bugs until you forget what it was all about in the beginning...enjoying video games. Now with all this pre-conceived jargon in your head and an eye for the most microscopic defects and bugs, the fanciest tools, IMHO, you can't enjoy it in the innocent way you used to.

lol isn't the vp180 essentially an m80 turned on it's side, drivers rearranged?

My wife wants either the vp160 or vp180. still a little unsure which one to choose.

I have Vermont maple. It's very good, but the colors on the website are notoriously inaccurate. Be sure you order samples from Axiom before you place your full order.

Yes you do you slacker you!

Glad to see the center is being considered carefully - I think I may have opened a can of worms with all the options being discussed - sorry about that!

However IMO, the vertical M80 would be the best center channel matched with M80's L&R. 3 identical speakers across the front is the ideal situation. However once you go beyond that I think it becomes shades of grey and only listening in your environment can tell you what would be best. To summarise:

M80 center - PRO - best sound option, CON - worst WAF

VP180 - PRO - simply a horizontal M80, CON - horizontal array

VP160 - PRO & CON - blurs the line a little between horizontal and vertical arrays

M22 - PRO - vertical array, CON - can't carry as much lower frequency, not sure of sheer output capability as compared to VP180 or 160

dual M22's - I am out of my depth there and have no opinion, although I am intrigued

Any feelings on M2 vs M22 as a vertical center?

I don't agree and don't like the idea of having M80 as center . The goal of the VP speaker line is to have something equivalent to the floor standing line but that let you place your tv at a sane height. The M80 is 40" high, add the dimension of a large TV and that will put you with in a non ergonomic watching position. The VP180 is aiming straight at ear level when I sit down and it's perfect that way and my TV is at eye level



I own M22,M60&M80&VP150&VP180&QS8.

Luc, my comments were purely based on sound quality. Agreed about the ergonomics. I have M22 L&R and an M2 center. I would have liked an M22 center but the ergonomics did not work in my room for that, so compromised with the shorter M2.

Ken - I think that also answers your question. I have not heard the M22 as center - only the VP150 and the M2.

Luc - you have quite the assortment of Axioms. How are they setup?

Cheers,

1st system
Pioneer Elite VSX33 & Emotiva XPA5 & Emotiva UPA2
2xM80 & 1xVP180 & 4xQS8 & PSB 12" sub

Pictures, which are slightly outdated.. I replaced the projector with a 60" plasma.

slightly outdated pictures

2nd system
Pioneer Elite VSX32
Zone A: 2xM60
Zone B: 2x Outdoor speakers

3rd system
Yamaha HTR-5960
Zone A: 2xM22ti & 8" Energy sub(computer room)
Zone B: 2xAxiom AX1.5 (GYM) they look like the newer M3

outdated pics (before I gave my office a makeover).. I have a stone wall and wall cabinets now and a new paint too.


Unused
VP150 is on a shelf and eating dust

I have a fourth system not worth mentioning.



Outdated pics of bedroom (with M60). The M60 are now in the living room on the 1st floor.

outdated bedroom pics

Thanks to everyones great replies. Love your setupd Luc

Well, I think I'm going to go with the VP180. I like big and badass. And most of the time, It's going to be for my sweet spot. In the future, I can always experiment with center channels.

So my choices are finalized

2M80s
1 Vp180
1 Ep800
2 Qs8
1 Pioneer Elite Sc-61 receiver

I've learned so much in the past few days thanks to you all.

I still have one question though that has been left unanswered:

1. Audio Jewelry(this term is new to me...i don't get it?). I've done tons of biwiring in previous setups and always thought it was an advantage. With further reading, it seems Axiom believes it makes no difference, but offer the option for customer satisfaction mainly. Should I get the option or no? Die Cast woofer baskets or standard? What's the difference if any?

Thanks again to everyone. I sure hope I get this new job

I've already answered my own questions. Thanks to everyone.

I'll update later this week if I actually get to place this order.

Cheers

My fingers are crossed for you. That'll be a great system.

Thanks It's looking good. Only 16 interviews, 10 positions.

Someone I know already received a rejection letter. In a week since he got his, I haven't received one. My fingers are crossed as well.

I'll receive about 16,000 for a pension payout from my current job

edit: I have MANY more questions about accessories/setup, but I don't want to get to far ahead of myself. I will bring all these questions to light if I get to make this purchase all at once.

Neither biwiring nor cast baskets will make an audible difference in your system, IMO.

that should be a wonderful system for years to come.

Have fun.

I second Tom's response.

ditto!

On topic, I run a single M22 as a center channel with my M80's and I think its great. I plan on ordering another m22 so I have a 5.1 with M80's and M22's.

M80 - M22 - M80


M22---------M22

Hey Chris,
Just curious why M22's for surrounds instead of QS8's?

Right now I'm running a 3.1 setup, no surrounds. I have an extra M22 speaker on the stand not being used. So If I buy the QS8's I still have a single speaker collecting dust, also have nowhere to wall mount the QS8's until the gf and I buy our first home at the end of this year. I was thinking that It might be more economical to purchase a single M22 to complete my 5.1 setup, then in the future when I have the space I can get the QS8's for a 7.1 setup.

Do you not think the M22's would be good for surrounds?

I think you will be very happy with this setup. I have the VP180 and M80's and they go together perfectly. As you stated earlier the VP180 is a M80 on its side. My previous setup had the typical small center speaker and dialog was often hard to hear but with the VP180 being a full size speaker dialog sounds amazing. I never realized how much I was missing from the center before I got the VP180.

Also as far as Axioms sounding bright. I'm not an audio expert but I assume Bright means a a lot of high frequency sound. I have to admit that when I first set them up I understood what then mean by sounding bright. I could definitely hear the high frequencies a lot more with the Axioms. But the more I listen to them the better they sound and I am able to hear more details in the music than I ever did before. I think the reason they sounded bright at first is because my old speakers just weren't producing the highs like they should have been. (FYI, my old mains were a pair of 23 old Bose 601 speakers)

Everyone's definition of bright is different. To me, bright means the high end is uncomfortable on the ears, not just an extended range. I'm finding my M22 Axiom system to currently be in the bright category, but am awaiting the delivery of a Pioneer AVR to see if I can tame what I hear with MCACC. Audyssey just puts them in the bright mode and leaves them there.

I don't find my M22 to be bright with my Elite receiver, they were a bit on the harsh side with my Denon but only at high volume.

I listened to some B&W 603's with the matching center yesterday (Jurassic Park) at the father inlaw's and found them to be almost headache givingly bright.

Which receiver did you pick up?
On my SC61 you can fine tune and adjust the equalizer for every individual speaker.

From my experience; Denon is a 'set it and forget it' and the Pioneer is 'Better read the manual buddy'.

Seems you and me have the same definition for "bright". Let me know how that goes with your new receiver. I'll be trying to acquire a Sc-61 for this system.

I will have to do lots of reading about all this calibration, if and when I even get this system.

a standard equalizer is the most calibration I've ever had experience with.

This whole things about setting individual speaker levels, running calibration software with mics, setting crossover frequencies...it's all super new to me.

I'm saving those questions though, don't want to get ahead of myself

Yeah, I don't like those headache/earache inducing highs. Luckily I get to go to two auditions for the M80s in February. I'm looking forward to hearing them.

And I like to listen to music at high levels, so I don't want it sounding "harsh" as you put it

After reading an interesting thread in AVS ref the pros & cons of 'Center Channel Speaker' vs 'Phantom Mode' I had to see what was up with my system. So yesterday I went into my Denon's Menu - not for the faint of heart, ha! - to see the parameters that I had since my Audyssey Calibration last year. I found that if any parameters were changed manually, the full advantage of Audyssey are not available which requires a new calibration. Some would say that's a good thing, ha!

So I decided to run a calibration again with the mic on a camera tripod in the 6 different listening area positions - easy to do but somewhat stressful. Of course the furnace came on in the next room during the first run & phone rang half way through the second run - had to start over twice. The third run was successful; however I found that my twin Velo subs were set way too high (-12 Db according to Audyssey which means that they are out of its correction range). I turned them down to where they previously were with Velo's remote & ran it again - success. Somehow the volumes had been bumped up to over 3.0 vice 2.5 where they need to be. I turned Off Denon's automatic level controls & it's all back to normal. No bright M22s with my setup, just nice, accurate sound. The BD THX demo is most impressive even at -10 Db volume that is about all that I can stand in my house.

I think that a new calibration every 6 months is probably in order, especially if you have subs or other components that are controlled by their own Remotes. Things can get out of whack with out you knowing it...

TAM

Good call on going for another calibration. That's awesome it's sounding better. So with Audyssey, you get to do the calibration from 6 different listening positions? That's pretty incredible. I only saw my dad do it from 1 listening position through MCACC on his Pioneer Elite.

I've just been reading some more about subwoofers...lol I just can't help myself. I like something that quakes hard.

What is everyone's opinion on Submersive? I just stumbled across them. I'm reading a good handful of people have went from SVS to submersive, but no one really goes from submersive to SVS.

Good point, they definitely didn't sound uncomfortable to my ears at all, the high frequency sounds were just more noticeable at first. The reason I think I noticed is because my previous speakers just weren't doing a good job with the highs. I am using an Elite SC-67 which I love.

MCACC will also allow you to do a multi-point calibration. I haven't tried it yet because I always sit in the same spot but the option is there.

Link please

Mad:

The normal Audyssey has 6 positions & their higher end system has even more. Personally I would lose interest after 6 positions & for most home setups, 6 is more than adequate.

As for CC Speaker vs Phantom Mode, after playing around with them yesterday, I'm staying with my Sony CC speaker (space limitations). Even though it is not an Axiom & not exactly timbre matched as I've stated before, I suffer absolutely no detrimental effects when enjoying normal real-life material. The only place I hear any small difference is during pink noise test tones; however, the center Audyssey ping test tones sounded quite similar to the L & R M22s.

AVS link - lots of different positions & arguments, sometimes heated, but interesting nontheless:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449514/goodbye-center-channel

TAM

Thanks Tam

Not the same thing. Audyssey does 6-8 positions for the same seating position. MCACC does 1 position for up to 6 seating positions.

Not all versions of Audyssey are created equal.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq



If I understand you correctly, I think it would be more intelligible as



But that does kind of beg the question about how far apart the positions can/should be, or how MCACC manages to optimize the listening experience in so many different places at once. Magic?

Point being, this is some heavy duty science and technology, but at its heart, choices and compromises are being made by each system. Personally, I'm pretty happy with Audyssey but I can't really do much with my room. I think any of these systems should be a last resort, WAY down the list from speaker placement and room treatments. We spend a lot of money on components, recordings and speakers to hear "what really happened" and - no matter how smart they are - these systems necessarily make changes to what can otherwise be a pretty pure path.

And, you know, tone controls still exist, right?

You are correct as to my meaning. I had poor choice of words.

Here are the mic positions that I used in my irregularly shaped room (#1 being the primary viewing position) - each is about 3 feet from the previous one in sequence. Distances are not to scale:



Audyssey correctly determined that the distance from my right rear was about 4' farther than from the left rear & factors that into the volume levels, etc. Pretty cool stuff IMHO...

TAM

That's much wider than I understand it. I would only move the mic from 1 to 2 feet at a time, making a much smaller sample area. When I first tried it I was moving the mic much too far and getting unpleasant results. But if it works for you, who's to complain. I think I would try it again and move the mic about half as far next time.

I don't know if it matters (probably not), but the charts I've seen put the first 3 measurements in the row at the seating position, then the next 3 about 1-2 feet closer to the mains. Definitely don't put the mic outside of the mains.

The secondary viewing area is the couch on the right - not ideal but that's the way that it is. That's why I did them in the sequence that I did & tried to encompass that area as well.

Works for me, but I'm not too fanatical about this kind of stuff. I think that I'll wait for 6 months before trying it again unless it is really off sounding...

TAM

Tom, the sequence of measurements isn't important, but there's no need to try to include alternate listening positions as measurement points. As Brian mentions, it's suggested that the successive measurements(use as many as possible)be only a foot or two from each other. These small differences nevertheless give more data points for Audyssey to work with to create a picture of room variations. Even a listening position somewhat outside the measuring points would benefit.

This is from the Audyssey website FAQ section:

The MultEQ algorithms require acoustical information from multiple locations within the listening area in order to create the appropriate room correction filters for each loudspeaker and subwoofer in the system. The first measurement is used to determine the distance and level of each speaker and it should be taken in the center-most position of the listening area. After that, it is recommended to take 6-8 more measurements throughout the listening area.

The order of the measurements after the first one does not matter
It is very important to avoid extreme positions including up against the back wall or too far outside angle spanned by the front Left and Right speakers. Taking measurements in these positions will cause MultEQ to make unnecessary adjustments
Measurements should be at ear height with some small vertical variation.

I don't know - I think that what I did is quite OK according to them...

TAM

Yes, Dr. Kyriakakis's comments there and following are that the exact distance isn't critical, and he mentions one and two foot variations.

A couple of answers down he states ref mic distances between positions:

'The exact distance is not critical. Somewhere between 2-3 ft (1 m) is what we recommend.'

That's basically what I did. I think that you could drive yourself crazy with this stuff & unwittingly get into the law of diminishing returns.

Anyway, its good enough for now...

TAM

Not sure exactly but you mean but with MCACC multi-point you move the microphone to different seating positions during the calibration.

Thanks. That's a new one on me. I'll have to check it out further.

Not sure if it's a new thing, I have an SC-67 so it might be new for Pioneer.

I bought an SC-67 from Amazon last week. Still waiting on delivery.

Cool, I ordered mine from Amazon as well. I got it at the end of November and so far I'm loving it.

I believe I have read somewhere that Mcacc has up to three mic positions.

That is correct.

My older Pioneer vsx-21txh only had 1 mic position. Apparently, they've either improved MCACC since then, or the SC-67 has a more advanced version.

On my SC-05, the MCACC main measure does one position. The 3 position measurement comes from the standing wave correction. I had to go to the advanced measurements specifically for the standing wave portion and tell it to calibrate 3 positions. Otherwise it will just default to one. Not sure if the new incarnations of MCACC are the same.

Wait.. you didn't give him the AVS link!!?!?!?!?!?!?!.......... I feel special now....

Yeah, Alex; I was confident that your thirst for knowledge was such that you wouldn't hesitate to read all of the 59,000 posts there.

well, an update:

This buy was all on the basis of receiving a new job and getting my pension payout from current job. They are definitely taking their time, but FINALLY, have started calling my references.

I just spoke to my one of my references and he said she talked about how I was pretty much already hired. The start date would be February 18th. I find out for sure next week.

If that's the case, I'll be putting in my notice next week and receiving my pension payout roughly 6 weeks later.

It looks like I have a line on getting a Pioneer Elite SC-68 for below a 1000 dollars. I sure hope that pans out

Below 1000? Nice solid deal

Yeah. I'm jealous. I paid $1330 for the SC-67.

Is the SC-68 new, used or refurbished?

I'm loving my SC-67 right now. Only a little more control over the bass would make me happier. But I'm not complaining. I like a lot of bass, as long as the other frequencies are there too. But it's something I can play around with later, when I have the time for it.

"It looks like I have a line on getting a Pioneer Elite SC-68 for below a 1000 dollars. "

Are you getting it out of the back of someones Van. The lowest I've seen the SC-68 go for is around $1900.

lol no not back of a van. It will be slightly used. A friend of mine bought it and he's not a big fan of it. He's pretty loaded and he owes me a good deal. I gave him a bunch of equipment back in the day.

I don't know what about it he doesn't like, but he said he finds it "complicated". I like complicated

He said 800-1000 for it, if and when he gets a new amp

Good for you; however, I don't know what he'll find that isn't complicated these days - but don't tell him, ha!. With HT, it goes with the territory...

TAM

haha agreed...I'm trying to make the amp sound horrible to him

I don't find it all that complicated. Perhaps it's all the audio choices. I just like to find something that works well and stick with it. Right now, using one of the THX modes that supports upgrading 5.1 to 6.1, called THX extended, I think.

I guess if you played in the amp menus often, got used to the GUI & how it all works & what the often undecipherable options are, then it becomes second nature; however, when I dabble inside my Denon every 6 months or so & have forgotten everything from before, I find it to be stressful & yes, complicated...

TAM

quick question:

My power amp is 4ohm capable
If my receiver is not, will this be a problem?

Nick, your question isn't entirely clear. All amplification is "4ohm capable" in varying degrees, certainly including the SC-68 to a very substantial degree. Also, if your plan is still to actually drive your Axioms with the 1095, then the capability of the receiver is a moot point.

well many amps claim to not be able to drive 40hm loads without shutting off.

I was talking hypothetically...if I didn't have the sc-68...IF I had a receiver that shuts down driving M80's, would it matter if they are running through the 1095 anyway?

Hi Mad,

No, it wouldn't matter if you're using a receiver as a preamp (even if it's a receiver that shuts down driving 4-ohm loads) because the preamp output is a low-level signal (a couple of volts) incapable of powering speakers. It only has to drive the input section of your 1095 power amplifier, which it can do with 1 volt.

When you hook up an AV receiver to use its pre-out signals only, the amplifier section in the receiver goes unused.

Regards,
Alan

ok thanks, I figured as much. It felt silly asking but I had to ask.

I'm "thinking" of replacing my Rotel RMB-1095.

It's having issues and I learned a little more history about it, I don't feel comfortable hooking up all this nice new equipment to it.

This is the on going problem with the amp(I've just become aware of it).

The front right channel intermittently starts to lose volume. Like all of a sudden, over the course of a cd for example, I'll suddenly become aware that the left channel sounds quite a bit louder then the right channel. I noticed this last week. When I turn it down to "just above audible" on the left channel(using the balance on the receiver) and set the balance to the right, you can hear absoulutely nothing. The left channel is definitely quieter. It doesn't happen all the time though. It's very odd.

My dad has never told me about this before, but apparently it was an on going problem. He said he thought it was his receiver, so he hooked up the Rotel to other receivers for a period of time. Same problem started to creep it's way back.

He brought it down to a local repair guy)just a little hole in the wall electronics place with a good reputation) and he can't make heads or tails of it from the sounds of it. The second time it was brought in, he took out some of the safety features of the amp, thinking there was something going wrong there. I don't know the exact specifics and this all new news to me.

If it was me who was fixing peoples expensive equipment and I can't figure it out...wouldn't it make sense to contact the manufacturer for suggestions? Apparently my dad phoned Rotels technical line, but they couldn't really help without sending it away.

So now that I know the safety features of the amp may be possible compromised, plus the added fact that I'm getting weird volume fluctuations...I don't know if I feel comfortable hooking up equipment to it anymore.

Would it be worth it to pay for all the shipping and costs associated with and send it to Rotel for repair? Or should I put it in storage and buy an Emotiva XPA-3?

I should say I know it's worth it either way to get it fixed, but I'm thinking about just shelving it for now.

If I'm reading this thread right, it looks like you're getting a Pioneer SC-68. That's all the pre-amp and amp you need.

the sc-68 isn't a for sure thing. I'm hoping to.

I'd like a little more headroom then that amp offers though. I want to run a power amp regardless

I think you will be surprised at just how loud the SC or any other avr with that quality can drive the M80s. Most of these avr's are capable of producing clean sound to around 100db, to get just 10 more db you need about 1000w, with a listening distance of 3m away(my house)

Check this calculator out.

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

It gives you a rough estimate as to power requirements.

That's a great calculator. Thanks

Maybe it's all in my head, but I've always found that the more power I can feed the speakers, the better they sound.

For example:

I'm sure if I had the m80s with a Pioneer Elite at 90db and compared that to running them through a power amp with 300w a channel, still keeping the volume at 90db, it would sound better to me.

Maybe I'm just used to running old speakers with old amps so the amp makes a much bigger difference to me.

I mean, it would be nice to not have to buy a separate power amp, so maybe I'll try it out first

I'm definitely known to listen to loud music at times at around 100db or more(though I must admit, this is merely a guess. I don't own a SPL meter). Loud enough to send animals running and make you feel like you are in a rock concert. I'm really looking forward to testing the m80s on their ability to play loud.

I play mine at around the 80db range, sometimes louder, with a pair of speakers connected to each channel of the SC-67. This is a whole lot lower than 4ohms and my amp doesn't even get all that hot.

very nice! well, I NEED a new receiver and it sounds like I don't necessarily need the power amp...for now

Nick, the first point is that the Crown calculator certainly isn't a "great calculator" when a home listening room is the venue. It's based on an anechoic measurement without the room reinforcement that changes the measurement significantly. The result from using the calculator unadjusted for the room is as much as 4 times the true number. Crown fails to even mention this key factor on the calculator page and only brings it to light here near the end under "Other Considerations" where it suggests adding 6dB for the room contribution, which is equivalent to reducing the power figure to 1/4th of the previous value shown on the calculator.

Also, as was pointed out previously, but you apparently can't accept, the only way you can "feed" a speaker more power is to make it louder; simply connecting an amplifier with a higher maximum output rating does nothing. If a speaker such as the M80 is using about 1 watt for a comfortably loud average level, 1 watt is all that it's being fed, regardless of whether the amplifier can output a max of 10 watts, 100 watts or 1000 watts.

Simply keeping the volume control on a receiver or separate pre-pro at the same number doesn't keep the volume the same when a separate amplifier is connected. The separate amplifier can have a different gain than the amplifier in the receiver and can be slightly louder at the same volume setting. This is why blind listening tests have to make careful adjustments so that the volume is matched within 0.1dB for the units under test. Louder gives an impression of being better, rather than just louder.

That was well said. See, I'm really in the dark about some things. I've learned more in the past month online through this site and many others. What you said makes perfect sense.

I've always thought it was a good thing to be able to feed a speaker what it is rated for. In this case, I thought it would be ideal to be feeding each m80 as close to 400 watts each as possible.


Just to feed my curiousity and thirst for knowledge a little more...

Why is it that SO many people who own m80's run seperate power amps?

Is it just because people don't know any better?(kind of like the people who think that biwiring/biamping makes a difference?...well biamping without taking the crossovers out that is)

I just started googling about all of this and found this article

http://www.axiomaudio.com/power

very good article I thought

I don't know how many people using M80s buy a separate("there's a rat in separate")amplifier, but if the amplifier in their receiver has the power capacity for their needs(as is usually the case), they've become the victims of one of the many audio mythologies that continue to float around and spent money on something that won't be used.

Sounds like this could be very possible.

Why can such a potential "farce" have such a market? Even axiom is now dishing out some heavy hitting power amplifiers.

Well you have given me a lot to think about. Time to re-evalute

-alan

So for these old m80s, with the seating position 12 feet away in a standard room, to reach 109db, one would need 200 watts per channel.

And to go from 109 to 119db, you would need 2000 watts per channel. I think the m80s have only been tested as high as 1200-1400 or something, so this is definitely not needed or recommended.

I would like to reach the 110db level comfortably though.

Seems like a good argument for power amps to me tho?

My head can only handle around 85 - 90 Db in my listening area - unless I've been into the sauce, ha! My 65 W/Ch Tube Amp into my M2s/EP-400 easily puts this level out without cranking it up too much on the volume control. I've checked it on an IPhone & IPad SPL Meter app. BTW, there are some SPL apps for smart phones that evidently are as good as or better than the RS SPL Meter. The 'SPL Meter' app for the IPhone/IPad works really well.

If you expose yourself to 110 Db regularly, eventually you'll be frequenting hearing aid forums discussing the life of their little batteries...

TAM

haha It's when I'm sauced up as well. It's funny you mentioned that app...I just downloaded it for my Galaxy S2(apparently the microphone can't register anything past 95db or something though). I'm getting sauced up as we speak, so I'll test it out in a bit on my current system.

I have to admit though, with all my setups and the power I've had going to them, when it gets to a point where it sounds really loud for my ears, I'm probably hearing distortion.

I might have never heard 100 decibels with minimal distortion on a home theater in my life.

this whole spl meter is new to me. Without getting to official and technical, can I just turn my app on when i'm listening to music in 2 channel mode? (my two cerwin vegas).

I turned an ac/dc song up to my speaker/amps limit and it only registered 86db on my app.

That's crazy

edit: well i found the limits of the app. it peaked once at 86db, but it always sits at 81db now. doesn't seem very reliable

Nick, for your further education and/or amusement here's Mojo's heroic experiment with his wife's 2 watt boombox driving his M80s. And yes, 21 right and 15 wrong doesn't meet the test of a result significantly different from chance under binomial probabilities standards.

Hi again Mad,

You might well be listening to your system in the range of 80 dB SPL to 85 dB SPL, thinking that you're hearing 100-dB levels. Subjectively, a playback level of 85 dB SPL is describe by most people as "quite loud". Levels 10 dB louder, 95 dB SPL, are termed by most people "very loud," and, with the exception of amplified rock music, typify the peak levels experienced from most good seats in a concert or recital hall from orchestral music. (Amplified rock music is something else again.)

I think the general reluctance to believe that an AV receiver's internal amplifiers can handle most of the demands of very loud music in typical rooms is partly due to the tendency of lots of listeners, after getting "sauced up", to crank up the playback volume to extremely high levels, thus testing or exceeding the limits of a receiver's internal amplifier, or pushing it into distortion. It's why I still endorse having "as much power as you can afford", as a kind of audio "insurance" for those times when you recklessly crank up the levels. With several hundred watts of power in a separate power amplifier, you can be assured that you're unlikely to drive the amplifier into clipping (and possibly damage your speakers from distorted clipped signals) even when you're "sauced up" or stoned.

I don't advocate long-term listening at such levels because of potential hearing damage, and I've been known to flee Axiom parties when levels became ludicrously loud, but I don't deny the thrilling sense of power that comes from owning separate power amplifiers for those moments when you want very clean undistorted output for 100-dB-plus peaks.

By the way, thanks for your compliments on my article.

Regards,
Alan

i think that there is another good reason to have more power than needed: moving the audio system to a much larger room, as when someone buys a new house.
then, there is no need to sell your amps and buy new ones.

Very good post Alan. I think you hit the nail on the head.

I think you're right, I may have never listened to to music at 100 decibels before. I was just guessing...seems my guess could be way off.



I think that's a perfect way of putting it

This is a good point too

The number one reason NOT to use when justifying the new power amp to your SO:

"But honey, its for when, you know, I get all sauced up and wanna crank it!"

Here we go again..... OK, according to OSHA, at 85 db, hearing loss will occur if exposed for 16 hours or more, at 90 it's 8 hours, 100 it's 2 hours and at 110 it's .5 hours. Instant peak db's of 140 will result in immediate hearing loss.

Read this: http://www.etymotic.com/pdf/er_noise_exposure_whitepaper.pdf

Listening to music at 110 db's for any length of time is not a good idea.

I am currently running a set of M80's off a Denon 3808. I'm using them in my great room as surround speakers or four channel stereo. The front speakers are Opus 2.2's, being driven off a 200 wpc Rotel amp with the 3808 being used as a pre amp. The M80's do not have any trouble keeping up with the 2.2's. I've experimented a bit, driving the M80's with the Rotel and then the 3808. I can't tell a bit of difference.

Tinnitus sucks and so does hearing loss, which is inevitable with age . Playing music too loud just makes it happen quicker. Wish I had listened to my dad LOL.

I used to have a couple of speakers like the old Radio Shack Mach Ones on some short stands. I used to pull them up towards the bed so I could lay on it diagonally, upside-down, with my head on the corner. Then I would crank Ted Nugent's Double-Live Gonzo, Aerosmith, Kiss, Deep Purple, Hendrix, etc. as loud as my stereo would go.

Right there, between the two speakers, it was probably peaking to 105 or 110.

Sometimes I have problems hearing people talking to me if there are others in the room talking.

I blame Ted Nugent personally.

Hi Mark,

No question I've abused my hearing lots of times, especially when I was younger. I did start to wear ear plugs on subways (and at Axiom parties!) years ago; I'm not sure how much damage can be attributed to loud playback levels or the usual effects of aging. Certainly by my mid-to-late 50s I began to hate noisy restaurants, bars, and parties (unless I was so stoned I didn't notice) and I now search out quiet restaurants where I can converse in a normal tone of voice, or I make early reservations when restaurants aren't crowded.

On the plus side, I stopped going to loud rock concerts by the time I was in my early 30s, and I always preferred acoustic music of all kinds to over-amplified rock.

--Alan

Because the overall volume bothered you or were you losing the capability of hearing the person you were with over the background noise?

"unless I was so stoned I didn't notice"
Lol

You don't want to get close to one of these. 130dB blasts. The power you feel just from a single blast in the vicinity. It goes when you're trying to turn them off, standing next to it. Oh boy, must be torture!

The 'SPL Meter' app on the 'I' products (I don't own any) had different Db ranges that you could select on a rotary wheel on the screen. I know that it could register over 86 Db.

I know that anything over 85 Db becomes annoying to me - unless sauced of course...

TAM

There sure are a lot of forum members with substance abuse issues!

Anything that I've ever used is in liquid form, totally legal, sold by the provincial government & taxed to the hilt.

As I'm now an old phart, my excess episodes are very few & far between thus saving my speakers from needless abuse. I don't recover like I used to, ha!!

TAM

lol funny responses so far.

I know it's bad for me, but I can't help but love the power of incredibly loud music. I know I'll probably end up regretting it years from now. And like others, it's only when I'm sauced up that the volume gets that high. lol

Mark: I have 4 Radio Shack Mach Ones in very good condition sitting in my basement with a Mos Fet LX1 series power amplifier(push/pull dc amp)

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/648991083-lxi_mosfet_am4222_power_amp_w_am4022_preampwow

Quite and interesting power amp. The speakers sound fantastic for 30+ years old

Yes, the Crown calculator isn't the best for a home setting, I just went with it because I knew they had one on their web page.


Here is a better amp power calculator that actually speaks to the room reinforcement before you get down to the calculator as well as a DB level exposure table at the bottom

http://www.allegrosound.com/Power_AllegroSound.html

I can remember seeing a calculator that actually added the room reinforcement into the equation, checked 2 pages worth of searches still haven't seen it......

On hearing damage, the Etymotic paper linked above has some good info, such as the discussion of the work of Kujawa and Liberman, indicating that even so-called "temporary" loss may have long-term consequences. However, it discusses only the OSHA standards for work place noise, which should not be applied for home listening. Although it recognizes that the OSHA standard allows for some long-term loss, more stringent standards which all but eliminate this possibility aren't described.

In discussing power requirements I typically emphasize safe hearing levels and am not amused by those who want to be able to "crank it". An article here discussing safer standards has been cited before and emphasizes the inappropriateness of applying a work place standard which allows for some hearing loss to "community" venues such as listening at home. Table 1. there compares the standards, showing the much more stringent ones of the EPA and World Health Organization intended to prevent any significant chance of damage.

Well you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think any organization, governing body, or person should be able to have any say in how I listen to my music though. It's what "does" it for me and I HIGHLY enjoy it.

Do I take chances with my hearing? Definitely. Have I experienced some hearing loss already? Probably. Is it worth it? In my own personal opinion...definitely.

Huh? What you say sonny? Speak up. All I can hear is this ringing in my ears.

Imagine if you, can having your wife nagging to you in your ear 24 hours a day , 7 days a week for the rest of your life. Tinnitus is 10 times worse, so yeah they are your ear but err on the side of common sense.

I have tinnitus, constant ringing, I've learned to ignore it the best I can. But it's always there.

Hence, the "constant" part.

Anything that raises your blood pressure makes it worse. Ie coffee, cigs , booze ,stress. I am learning to ignore mine but its not easy .

My job, working, my boss.

Go stocks go. I want to retire.

Having had both, I can assure you that the nagging wife is infinitely worse.

Had being the operative word, how ever did you get rid of tinnitus LMAO

lol all the responses have made me laugh so far

tinnitus would suck, agreed.

I think the key cutting machines that I listened to for years as a locksmith effected my hearing more than my loud music. very high pitched. Zapped my high frequency hearing.

Just to add my 2 cents...

I have M80s and a Denon 4311CI receiver. I however use a 3 channel ADA1000 for the M80s and VP150 center. Why the external amp?

- I like running my M80s as Large and my Denon would shut down on loud peaks. It can't handle the 4 ohm load.
- I normally play at about -5 db levels which is loud but comfortable for me. I want the amazing peak power the ADA1000 provides for the peaks high dynamic range movies and good quality music can create.
- Every once in a while I do turn up the dial and even if it's only once a month, it's nice to hear loud and *clean* sound that the Denon simply cannot do.
- Finally, I love my Axiom speakers and it is comforting to know that those insane moments when I do crank it up, even if it's only for 30 seconds, I won't go into clipping and damage my babies.

These are reasons I use an external amp.

Hi Mark,

Yes, I've been losing the "cocktail party effect" --the ability to focus one's listening attention on a single talker among a cacophony of conversations and background noise--since I passed 60. It comes with age-related hearing loss and begins in many men (not all) around age 50. By the time you're 80, according to the available research, about 50 percent of men are affected.

However amongst the baby boomer generation, it's showing up earlier (Bill Clinton wears two hearing aids).

Incidentally, it doesn't seem to diminish my enjoyment of live or recorded music (via Axiom speakers, natch) nor change my ratings of speakers double-blind tests.

-Alan

I turned 60, and I started noticing this phenomenon a few years ago. But it was during dinner get-togethers in a crowded room. With everyone talking and making noise, I have a hard time understanding anything anyone is saying.

Audiologists/Hearing Specialists will have it made in 15-20 yrs when the next generation hits 50+....car stereo.

(+iPods)

I am approaching 60 and have tinnitus and it sucks. Ginkgo Biloba helps though.

However my doc gave me advice that was music to my ears, turn up the radio he said and it will mask the ringing.

You can add this on my list of why you need an external amp

So, you need an external amp because you use an external amp?

Hmmm. Maybe I should get an external amp.

WHAT you don't have one yet??

Definitely helps my tinnitus.

That's right. I don't need an external amp because the plastic shelves it sits on are special plastic shelves. The material it's made up of gives off an aura that causes my amp to boost louder than normal, at reduced distortion.

For the low low price of only $600, I can set you up with your own special shelves. Results may vary. Sold as-is. Seller is not responsible for results. No returns.

What a deal!

Lucky you. I was already in trouble in my early 20s. I had no idea it was not normal to not be able to follow conversation in a loud bar. Had my first bout of ringing as a teenager, though I had no idea a the time what it was, nor did I give it much thought.

Cat, that's it exactly. When I'm in those situations, I just nod my head and smile. I have no idea what people are saying!!

-Alan

Alan, I thought it funny when, at the Axiom get-together, I asked if you would like a new 40' sailboat for free. I said to you "just tell me that you'll take good care of it". You nodded but never said anything back to me.

So I gave it to someone in Kansas instead.

LOL!

(I don't have a snappy comeback.)

Cheers,
Alan

M80's are 4 ohm speakers and the SC-68 is rated for 250W of continuous power at 4 ohm so my guess is it will be more than enough. I have the SC-67 which is 230 watts continuous at 4 ohms and I don't even come close to cranking it all the way up on my M80's before its way to loud for me to listen too for more than a few minutes. Those Elite receivers have quite a bit of power.

So it's OFFICAL

I got my job offer I will be for sure receiving a pension buyout and I will probably be receiving it the last week of March. It's going to be SOOOO hard to wait that long. lol

At that time I will be placing an order for the Epic M80 system MINUS the subwoofer. I know I originally was going to go with the EP800, but after much reading and conversing with people from all walks of life on different message boards, I have decided to go with the SVS PB13-Ultra.

I'm hoping to get my hands on a Pioneer Elite SC-68 for cheap, but if that doesn't happen, I'll buy a brand new SC-61 instead.

By the summer, I will be purchasing the Emotiva XPR-5 power amp. This is a purchase for "down the road". I am not in a hurry for this.

In the meantime, I am officially on 2 weeks holidays. I will be traveling to Alberta and meeting up with some generous axiomites for some auditions(i'm really looking forward to listening before buying). I leave tomorrow morning for Edmonton.

I want to extend a great thanks to every single person who contributed to this thread. You have all helped very much. Thanks

Man, speakers and electronics aside, congratulations on the new job. That is awesome.

Congrats on the job!

I live in E-town too, so if you want to hear some M60's, shoot me a pm and maybe we can set something up.

hey thanks guys!

hmm you're there too hey? I would LOVE that! I'm very unsure if I'll have time though. I'm there for a wedding(well, passing through), so I might be very time crunched. I'm leaving tomorrow morning and I will be driving to Canmore on Sunday. Stag night is on Friday night(I'm the best man). I can't really commit to anything unfortunately, sorry.

Great news on the job, Nick! Keep warm in Edmonton; hear it gets a bit chilly there.

Congrats on the new job! Try not to spend all of your pension payout on audio gear, eh?!

Before you decide for sure on not getting an Axiom subwoofer don't you want to wait for their updated models to come out later this year?

updated models you say? oooh tell me more?

Is there an updated version of the m80 coming? it would suck to buy the v3 when a v4 is coming soon

There is no exact date but yes there has been talk of an update to the subwoofers. As far as I know not any of the other speakers. My guess is sometime this summer/fall. This is just a guess based on how busy with new products Ian and Andrew were last year and an assumption that this is what will be keeping them busy this year.

You will love that setup. I have an SVS sub with my Axioms and it sounds great together.