Hello,

I purchased a pair of QS8s for my side surrounds and it's time to upgrade the rears. I am wondering if anyone can chime in as to whether or not it would be better to get direct firing bookshelf speakers for the rear or would it be better to get another pair of QS8s (or even just one)? Due to the limitations of the room, I would only be able to place them either two feet apart on the back wall (which is about 6 feet from the listening position) or have one on a partial wall 1.5 feet from the side wall and the other about 2.5 feet away from the back wall. Should they also be the same height as the side surrounds (which are 2 feet above ear and just slightly behind the sectional)? Anyway, I love my QS8s, but I am feeling inundated with the difference of opinion on setup of a 7.1 theater. Thanks in advance,

James

James, the 6' distance from the back wall is enough room to provide for a useful rear surround field. It's also enough to at least arguably allow a pair of small direct radiators such as the M2s to disperse sufficiently. If you like your QS8s now as side surrounds though, there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason not to also use them in back.

As far as positioning, yes they preferably would be about the same height as the side surrounds. A 2' separation wouldn't be enough to allow for both a left rear and right rear effect at the listening position. The positioning problem you mention isn't entirely clear, but a separation on the order of 6' or a little more would be desirable, if it could possibly be arranged.

I've been using M2's as my rears for several years in my 7.1 set-up and love them. I have Q8's for the surrounds. Would four Q8's sound better? Perhaps, but the M2's work just fine for me.

I added a second pair of QS8s coming up on 2 years ago now. I love it, but if I could go back in time, I would toy with some direct radiating for my rears and leave the QS8s on the sides. For me, I have 2 rows of seats, and I sit in the front row, but the sound field is so enveloping (for the back row anyway) that I some times feel like I am not getting enough discrete sound from my rear 2 speakers. If I sit in the second row, it is great. I know, crank it up and "to heck" with the second row people... Maybe.

I am still super happy, don't get me wrong, but I just wonder some times...

Either way, I think that you will be very happy.

I can say that nickbuol may have a point about discrete 7.1 and 4 Q8's. In my room, the surrounds and rears are not very far apart, but when something is supposed to come from one of the rears, you certainly have no problem hearing it that way, but unless I could swap out my M2's for Q8's I can't comment if the experience would be similar.

Yup. Don't get me wrong. For things that are what I call "crazy mixed in 7.1" you get GREAT spacial effects that have a massive sound field behind you. Those things are generally the DTS and Dolby "intros" in high def audio. Like the Dolby Bouncing Spheres Intro, you can hear every single ball independantly coming from behind and such, and of course the "All around you" whisper at the end is seamless with 4 QS8s.

So again, it isn't bad at all, but for regular mixed stuff like movies, the QS8s for rears tend to add more subtle effects than the sides. Maybe that is what they are supposed to be because I've "calibrated" both with the mic just at the front row seating positions as well as the front and back combined, and the end result seems the same from the front row. Maybe the back row is actually just getting too loud of an effect? Not sure.

Either way, I am very much happy with having 4 QS8s and won't be switching, but I will always wonder if a side by side comparison would have been nice.

(1) According to Dolby Surrounds should never be Direct Radiating because movie sound engineer mix then to be filler sound and atmosphere rather than percise and as such should only be bipole, dipole or quadrapole. (2) Surrounds should be placed with a Tweeter height of 2'-3' feet above the listeners ears at the Seated posistion.

Maybe, but others with dedicated theaters are messing around with side surrounds actually being slightly in front of the primary listening area instead of Dolby's recommendation of no further forward than 90 degrees to the side. A lot of people are finding that it actually creates a more enveloping sound field. A number of people are also finding that small "arrays" of direct radiating rear surrounds are better, but 1) who wants to buy all of that, 2) how much better is it?

I think that Dolby, DTS, and even THX models are still somewhat limited in that for more and more people, their standard layout models are designed for "smaller" rooms than what people have and with more of those people going with more than 1 row of seats, their models are no longer valid.

Still good guidelines, but with 2 rows of seats, getting the surround sound up to the front row is a challenge. Not sure that direct radiating would be better, but it would be worth trying had I thought of it in the past. Of course, then I would be potentially compromising the rear row of seats, but the heck with that. *I* sit in the front.

Your forgetting a major point which is what im describing is how its mixed in the studio. So your changes misrepresent the accuracy and intended placement of sounds being mixed. Changing these Fundimentals will often give you bad sound effects because your altering with sound reproduction. Stick with dolby and dts recommendations if you want accurate Surround Sound as intended by the director.

For extended seating arrangements with two rows you should place L/R Surrounds to the sides of the 2nd row seats and then place Surround Backs at least 4' apart or more depending on your room.

But if I had such a setup I would do what the theaters do which is multiple L&R Surrounds that share the same input signal. But for the Majority of people here 7.2 is more than capable for our needs.

Saying that "movie sound engineers mix them to be filler sound and atmosphere rather than precise" is not a hard-and-fast rule. For example, movies like Gravity do have precise and discreet audio going into the surround speakers. There are many scenes where the actors are talking (in their spacesuits) while the camera is panning around. The audio of their voices moves around all the speakers so their voices match their position (both on and off camera), and the effect is quite stunning.

The second rule you mentioned I consider a general guideline and is often not feasible in many living rooms, and plus the design of the QS4/8 makes them somewhat forgiving and flexible regarding their placement. The average person's ears are roughly 3' (plus or minus several inches) above the ground while seated comfortably on the couch. Obviously this number varies depending on the height of the person, type of furniture, posture, etc, but let's just use 3' as a nice round number. That 2'-3' rule you mentioned would mean that the surrounds would have to be 5'-6' above the ground. Of course the surrounds also have to be at the proper angle behind the listening position. Unless you just happened to have equidistant walls that allowed you to mount the speakers at both the proper height and angle behind the LP, you would either need very tall speaker stands or the speakers would have to hang down 3'-4' from a 9' ceiling, which in both scenarios would look unacceptable to many people (and all wives ). I've got my QS8's hanging down from the ceiling about half a foot and angled downward toward the LP. When playing a movie at louder volumes (the higher volumes all home theater enthusiasts watch their movies at ), the sound bouncing off the ceiling along with the quadpole effect creates a wide soundstage that you can't tell are coming from speakers 5' above you.

FWIW I'll be removing my rear surrounds and placing my QS8's across the rear corners of my room (idea came from Imax video I watched).
They've sounded good in every position I've ever placed them and have little concern it will not work out for the best.
My front sound stage is competing with my side surrounds in the 7. configuration.

I would echo John's comments here.
If that back wall is truly that far back, a direct radiating speaker will have less of a prominent localization than if they were much closer to the listening seats (try placing two speakers, side by side, 10 or more feet away, switch sound from right to left and see if you can really tell which is right and left...gets harder with increasing distances).

That being said, if you already have QS8s on the sides, sticking with the same for the rears is a safe and good option.

Every mixing studio I've seen pictures of uses direct radiating speakers. I am sure that there are some out there somewhere using di/bi/mono/quad pole speakers though.

Also, Dolby (or was it DTS) DID put out pictures somewhere (it has been some time since I used it for reference since my theater build out and wiring was done a few years ago), but the still said that for 2 row to put the side surrounds 90 degrees from the front row, assuming that the front row is your primary seating. There was never an explanation that I saw or read as to if you normally sit in the second row.

You state that in one post, follow Dolby and DTS, and then in the next just give your opinion....

Just saying....

For my setup, the speaker placement is quite good. I am always just looking for that extra little "tweak" to make it better, and to go back to my original reply, I just said that I would have loved to compare direct radiating vs quadpole when I was setting things up just to see which I lived better instead of just assuming that the QS8s were the way to go.

Also remember that in an "ideal" world, all speakers would be the exact same, fronts, center, and surrounds. That has been the "ideal" for a long time, but just something hard to obtain financially for most, and difficult to do speaker placements as well. Mixing studios use direct radiating and many times the exact same speaker model for all speakers in the room.

Thanks for the good debate. Please understand that I am not attacking you or anything, just offering up some discussion. I only mention that since you are pretty new around here and together we will share ideas and insights that may help someone.

MK Speakers were the most commonly used speakers for Surround Sound Engineers in the Studio.
Here is a link for their Speaker Setup recommendations:

http://mkloudspeakers.com/pdf/MK-Speaker-System-Manual.pdf

Page 7
"HEIGHT
The surround speakers should be located relatively close to the ceiling. Placement above the listeners’ heads is important, preferably with the cabinet’s bottom at least two feet (60 cm) above a seated listener’s head. In fact, it is even better if the speakers are located above standing listeners’ heads, about 6-7 feet (180 – 210 cm) above the floor for times when listeners are standing or walking around the room."

Page 9
"SURROUND CHANNELS
You can achieve good performance with your surround speakers placed in a wide variety of room locations. In general, they should be either to the sides of or behind the main listening position, located higher than the listener’s heads. They can be mounted on either the side walls or on the back wall, flush to the wall, on shelves, on brackets, etc.
The goal is to achieve an enveloping sound. The surround channels should seem to come from all around you, rather than seeming to come from behind you only or directly from a speaker. For non-THX surrounds, we recommend starting with speakers on the side walls of the room,
two to three feet (60 – 90 cm) above the listeners’ heads"


Here's the Reference to Dolby Labs Speaker Placement:

http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/home-theater-speaker-layout-an-essential-guide

"The main left and right surrounds should be to the respective sides of the listening area, above ear level if possible (ideally 2 feet or more) at an angle of 90 to 110 degrees"


ps: I may be new to this Forum but i've been discussing A/V now for over 20yrs and stay up to date. My earlier posts were from my cell phone as I usually give FACTS with LINKS to back it up. But I was just going from memory earlier.

I knew I would hear a Strawman Argument to say that they knew of a movie which had a scene using Precise Surround Sound Effects. However as we all know 99.9% of All Movies use surrounds as FILLER & ATMOSPHERE. Even Gravity which still uses mostly Atmosphere to engage the viewers except during a couple quick scenes where they try to be precise. What you don't do is set-up a system for an Anomaly that happens very seldom.

Second the reason I said ear height and not 36" is because not everyone is the same size and if your trying to be Optimal in your Set-up you would adjust accordingly to your personal preferences.

Unless that's what the director intended.

I see all of these rules as general guidelines like the default 80 Hz crossover point. The people who can actually adhere to all of them are going to be an anomaly themselves.

some 2 years ago, when it came time for me to get surrounds, i bought 2 QS8s and then tried them for a while when setup as side surrounds.

later on, time came for the rear surrounds and i found an old pair of R.S. Minimus 7 speakers i had.

i mounted them about 8-9 ins. from the back wall, with the drivers facing the back wall at a small outward angle of about 15 Deg.

this makes the back surrounds work partially as direct radiating when the program calls for it, and also partially as diffused surrounds when needed.
The QS8s might be better doing this than my Minimus 7s, but the result is very satisfying for me.

+1

If you can adhere to the strict guidelines of the Dolby or other speaker layout recipies out there that is great.

The Manufacturer is also a great reference when determining where their speakers are appropriate.

For most people without no holds barred dedicated and planned rooms, the best we can do is often more than good enough to enjoy the experience. In the end thats all that matters.

First off most people can easily mount their Surround Speakers properly at 2'-3' Feet above their listening position regardless if their Direct Radiating or a Diffused Speaker. Because just mounting their Surrounds higher will create a more proper diffused sound as intended.

Second what percentage of movies use surround sounds directly vs diffused?
I see that their are some people on here still ignore this FACT.
The huge majority of movies (99%) use surrounds for Atmosphere (diffused), Which is why if your setting up for an Anomaly (direct), then you will be greatly depreciating the Accuracy of the sound stage and misrepresenting what most Sound Engineers are trying to accomplish.

You don't need special speakers or tons of money to properly place your speakers in an ideal location to accomplish having Diffused Sound. That's like saying it doesn't matter if you face your center channel backwards or forward. This is proper speaker placement. I'm sure I could even find a movie scene where a reversed center channel could be beneficial but that's just silly.

As you should know every 6dB is a perceived Doubling in Sound to the human ear. http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm

So if your using the QS8's you should be using a 95hz Crossover, however most receivers will not let you be that accurate so using either 90hz or 100hz should work fine. I personally prefer the 100hz Crossover because it has a Flatter Tighter Freq Resp of (+/-3dB)
While a 90hz Crossover brings your Freq Resp up to (+/-5dB). Which is not a good thing if your going for a FLAT FREQ RESP.

This is why Paradigm speakers another Canadian Manufacturer uses such a tight Freq Resp on all of their Specs that's (+/-2dB) instead of Axiom which standards are (+/-3dB) which allows Axiom to cheat their loudspeakers specs thus achieving lower ratings for their low frequencies of their speakers.
So next time you look at specs between different companies keep in mind that sometimes the Loudspeaker that says it can play lower can be misleading if you don't understand the fine print.

Don't get me wrong i'm a huge fan of both companies which is why I own Axiom QS8's in the first place.

The pic of your setup shows comprimises must be made in a living situation. Yes, ideally, we would all have a replica of the dolby setup parameters.... but this is often not only impractical, but would deter from more important things--like functionality and enjoyability of the space.

Please remember, there are a lot of very talented and intelligent people here. Anyone can read the "rules" of audio setup online. Many here have spent a lot of time employing real world testing in their rooms with the gear they have. I would take their advice and personal experience as being as, if not more, valuable than any generalized rule published by Dolby etc.

If you have been around audio for 20 yrs, you can appreciate that the theory of audio reproduction, including Dolby parameters, is ever evolving with the current tech and enthusiast\client\industry feedback.

Once you add in the science of acoustics in individual rooms, it is apparent that all encompassing "rules" aren't applicable to every installation anyway. They are guidelines.

THX

Surround Sound Speaker Set Up

"Surround Left & Right Speakers (SL & SR): Place the SL & SR speakers between 90° to 110° to each side and 2 feet or higher above the listener. The SL & SR speakers recreate the enveloping sound and intense special effects that you experience in the cinema."

"Great sound can really bring out the power of high definition video. And speaker placement is essential to experiencing the true impact of movies, music and games."

Source: http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

Were talking about Surround here...most everyone can easily place their Surrounds properly 2'-3' Feet above their listening positions.

Also since you don't know how far away I sit from my TV you have no idea what my proper L & R Channel separation for my system should be so don't assume.

I find it curious that a dedicated forum for the Quadrapole QS8's would have people who have bought the perfect Diffused Surround Sound Speakers and yet would argue against proper placement...

Your argument that nothings perfect acoustically is correct, however to further miss-align proper Sound Reproduction by changing the standards in which they were Recorded and Mixed does not improve the accuracy to which your trying to achieve.

If you use Direct Radiating Surround Speakers at Ear Level it will be incorrect...those are the hard FACTS not my opinion. To say otherwise is to say that the Sound Engineers across the world and at
Dobly, DTS & THX are all wrong.

Feel free to contact them directly if you feel they are wrong, as they give recommendations based on Acoustical Science and Recording/Mixing Standards not personal opinions.

The engineers who wrote the rules obviously never observed me watch a movie in my HT room. I normally start sitting in the 'sweet spot' on my couch then perhaps move over some, sometimes lay down on 1 end of my couch then maybe flip over to the other end, wake up & sit in the center again, ha! This behavior kinda screws up the ideal theoretical sound field both front & rear so it is often lost on me.

Due to the odd shape of my room behind my listening area, my QS8 placement is absolutely horrid & so far from ideal that an engineer would give up in disgust. Since I have no choice, I have to live with this situation.

Having said all of that, the unique dispersion characteristics of the QS series makes this condition easy to live with in the real world. After Audyessy has set the proper levels & Xover (90 to 100 Hz), the overall effect is very enjoyable - perhaps not accurate but enjoyable nonetheless.

BTW, from what I've seen, the -3Db rating is pretty standard throughout the industry & Paradigm's use -2Db is indeed commendable; however, interestingly they don't use any of those types of ratings for their subs like Axiom & most other sub manufacturers do even though I'm sure that they are stellar performers that reach down really low...

TAM

So are you telling us that you can't place your QS8's 2'-3' Feet above your listening position because you live with hobbits and have a really low ceiling?

Honestly your arguing that because you stand on your head while watching movies that somehow
Dolby, DTS & THX Standards aren't working well for you....hmmm perhaps we should start with the basics such as Posture. lol

This discussion has just turned to the retarded because theirs always an excuse to be made and Strawman Argument to be had. However this is a discussion towards using the QS8's as Surrounds. And as such we discuss Placement, if you can't do it then just accept that what your then doing is changing the accuracy of the content and your sound will suffer accordingly. However I highly doubt that anyone can't raise their Surrounds to a proper height which is typically in the 5'-6' feet above the floor or (2'-3' above your ears). Just how small is your room? j/k

But for fun why don't we try and have a Serious Discussion instead of trying to argue for arguments sake. If your viewing environments are that bad to begin with and your trying to build a nice Home Theater System then perhaps you should spend some money on a proper room first instead of buying speakers. Because you listen to your Room just as much as you listen to your Speakers. Audyessy and the like, can't fix your room....just put a band-aid on it.

No need to get into a heated debate. The average person with an average room should certainly use the suggested surround speaker placement as a guideline / starting point. This is after all a guideline since only one person can sit in the so called sweetspot. I live in a rental house and putting too many holes in the wall is never a good thing. I use QS 4s in my living room and they placed according to suggestions made to me by members of this board and are now roughly where Dolby recommends. I believe the main point is that the speakers do not draw attention to themselves during the movie. Since every room is acoustically different and some dedicated viewing spaces have room treatments repositions speakers may enhance the listening experience. I would say that if a person was to build a room to exacting specification set out by dolby and used the exact equipment dolby specified then we could say it is a hard and fast rule. The only real right way is the way it sounds best to me. On paper my room for instance is too narrow/small for the
size of my fronts but what matters is it sounds great too me. It was mentioned that AlaskanAV's speaker placement was not optimal and I would tend to agree but given the constraints he has with doorways etc you make do with what you have and again he is happy and that's what counts. I myself don't take offence to constructive criticism since I am no AV expert though i have been involved in audio for over 35yrs.

Nick , should you ever get around to testing a set of QS 8s in you theater I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I have contemplate adding rear surrounds by repurposing my QS 4's and adding 8's to the side surrounds.

Just my random thoughts

Chill.

Socketman are you also having trouble placing your Surround Speakers at proper height because of room constraints?

Obviously these are the recommendations because they are Scientific Acoustical Facts that have been Engineered into the different Audio Formats. So whenever you have to alter or change these parameters you will be degrading what could be, and yes we all make some sacrifices unless were lucky enough to have built our room from scratch.

My simple point is this, Can you place your Surrounds 2'-3'feet above your listening position?
If so congratulations you just improved the dispersion of your Surround Sound Field.

These are the Fundamentals...your welcome to put the speakers upside down and backwards to if you like, but this is a discussion about proper speaker placement.
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

According to your link it states 2 feet or higher, that sounds pretty general to me and is merely a starting point/guideline. Different surround speakers will require different placement ie dipole ,direct etc. Dolby has entirely different suggestions. If that is what works in your room that is super but I am not about to place my speakers where they don't sound as good just because I am told that is where they have to be.

So are you saying that you Feel that your QS8's sound better to you when positioned lower to your ears because of your ignorance of how proper Surround Sound should be reproduced?

You do know that you can turn up the volume on speakers placed further from your ears right...

So in what world does placing your speakers incorrectly give a more positive outcome, can you give me an example of your improper placement so I can see what your doing wrong?

This reminds me a lot of proper Color Reproduction with HDTV's because most people watch sets that don't display tones correctly and when you give them a Calibrated display some people still like the prior. This is due to the Fact that they are accustomed to improper settings, much like what your referring to and trying to justify how their older tv looks more accurate, however this is just simple ignorance.

Dolby specifically states Surrounds to be placed 2'-3'Feet above the listener as does MK Loudspeakers which were the Standard for the Recording Studio's mixing sound...perhaps you should do more research. But i'm only stating the Facts here.

Also your incorrect because ALL surround speakers regardless of type ie Direct or Dispersed are required to be placed higher than the front soundstage, in no example shall they ever be Properly Placed at ear height.
The only exception to that rule would be SACD & DVD-Audio
but were discussing Movie Surround so that doesn't apply here.

Really , now im ignorant. Nice , come in and start casting aspersions. Go AWAY

If you can't handle the Facts then i'm afraid your in the wrong place.

I'm still waiting to hear how improper speaker placement of your surrounds is beneficial....
Tell us how you made-up your surround placements so we can see why your not following the Fundamentals. As described even by the Axiom professionals.

Don't take offense to Facts, as they were meant to educate your ignorance,
not insult it by any way.

I'm ignorant of Rocket Science, this doesn't make me stupid.
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge)

"Those that change the meaning of words confuse the mind."

ps: If you want to make a personal comment then I encourage you to Private Message me, thanks.

Take a log off the fire.

Everyone here is being exceedingly nice. Your tone is quickly becoming unfriendly.

No one disagrees with you, or Dolby etc. Everyone here seems to like their setup as is, and it meets their specific requirements based on real life limitations.

Well, well, we haven't seen this in a while here.

Anyway, check out the pics (now a bit dated) of my HT especially Pic #5:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/home-theater-pictures/?album=1&gallery=143

My main listening seat is the couch on the right directly facing the screen that is behind the camera & to the left. Note where the QSs are on the wall - a less than ideal configuration but that's what I have to work with. There is no rebuilding my house to accommodate a new HT. I enjoy it just the way that it is largely because the omni-directional characteristics of the QSs minimize the anomalies...

TAM

Beautiful floors Tom.

Steve Winwood on the tube?

Wow. This topic has EXPLODED... Going back to my last post, when I mentioned that you were new to this forum, AlaskanAVGuy, I simply meant that You don't know *me*. You don't know that I like to have conversations or debates about things, but that I never mean anything personal by it. I was in no way saying that you were, in any way, a "newbie" to home AV. Not that I didn't know if you were or were not, but I was talking about me..


However, you keep saying "FACTS" and so forth. Let me give you this "fact" since it comes straight from Dolby's web site:
Here is the direct document link first:

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Consumer/Dolby_HomeTheaterSetupGuide_7.1.pdf

You can get there by going here:
Dolby Speaker Setup

Click on the 7.1 "button" since we are talking rear surrounds.

Pick your distance to your screen and it gives diagrams of what we have been talking about for a while...

On the screen with the diagrams, on the left you can download the guide (or use the first link that I posted).

On page 2, it states:



They openly admit that nothing is perfect. Heck, mixing studios are rarely anything like a movie theater, home theater, or living room.

There are general guidelines, but guidelines are not "facts." There are WAY to many variables. Original source, mixing technician's preferences, mixing studio, sampling theater (where the director gets to hear it for generally the first time), speakers used and their designs and limitations, speaker configuration, room acoustics (oh my, this one is HUGE), the hearing capabilities of the listener, so and and so forth.


Here is an analogy.
FACT: Earlier this year the Hennessey Venom GT Becomes World's Fastest Production Car at 270.49 MPH.

Guideline: Just because it IS a fact that the car can go that fast, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone. Most people would freak out at 120MPH and day that this is MORE than good enough, and attempting to go faster would just not be worth the risks (if you have a perfectly smooth track, proper training on how to drive, a night super long straight away, the driver wasn't too heavy, etc). Therein lies the "variables" mentioned previously.

Just because it can go that fast since Hennessey designed it for that purpose of speed, does not mean that everyone should have one and everyone drives on super long straightaways with no other traffic or stop lights and the roads are perfectly smooth, and they have proper training on how to drive it...

So I would say that the guidelines from Dolby, THX, DTS, and so forth are just that. A commonly referenced *starting point* for what sounds good. That is why they give a range of degrees for placement and not "exactly 11.5 degrees to the rear of the front seating position".

Need another example? The Dolby, THX, and DTS "facts" as they have been called usually show a single subwoofer somewhere up front to the right or left of center. When they show 2 subs, they put one to the left and one to the right of the center channel again. THX does have at least 1 document floating around out there with the subwoofer directly under the center channel.

So that must be the "facts" about sub placement... That it should be exactly as shown in the picture. Well, sorry, but no.
Room modes go nuts, and any single subwoofer install really needs a "subwoofer crawl" to find the ideal placement. Add a second sub, and you can start doing some mathematical calculations and it shows that the middle of the front wall and middle of the rear wall, or the middle of the side walls is best, and yet most of the layout diagrams directly from Dolby, THX and DTS do not reflect this. They put them both up front. (Oh, and 4 subs, one placed in the middle of each of the 4 walls is the best placement location to eliminate the peaks and nulls from the modes of the room, but good luck finding that out on one of their documents). Maybe it is out there, but finding one in general circulation from one of them is next to impossible.

So, stick around and stay a while. Just be aware that this isn't AVS. People here don't go around pissing on other people trying to prove something like what happens over there so much.

I am sure that I will get some negative response. That's fine... I think that this thread has gone down a dark tunnel and really serving little purpose (my post included) so I will try to just stay away. I've got better things to talk about than coming in here just to hear that someone knows a bunch of "facts".

Serenity:

Yup, Steve Winwood with Eric Clapton in 'Live from Madison Square Gardens'. Fabulous concert (really well recorded) where Eric plays 'Voodoo Chile' for the very first time & boy did he do it justice. A must buy for those who like these guys.

The floors are actually a very classy & realistic looking laminate flooring (Armstrong Grand Illusions, dark cherry I believe) that I had to use because I'm on a concrete slab. Hardwood (that we wanted) would have required much more effort & money but the laminate works well there.

I must update my pics as now I have a new stand, VP160 CC & 55" Sony TV...

TAM

Those comments are meant for people who don't know the difference between Bose speakers and Axioms.

Here's what was stated in the next paragraph:

"However, if you’re not hearing any bass, or there’s no sense of spaciousness and depth, or something seems to be missing, some fine-tuning may be in order. Even small adjustments
in placement can have clearly audible effects."
and it continues for another 23 paragraphs on how to set-up your home theater.

In other words Speaker Placement Matters....hmmm go figure
Some people would even argue that the sky isn't blue.

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Consumer/Dolby_HomeTheaterSetupGuide_7.1.pdf

Here's what the experts say over at THX:

"Sound is fifty percent of the entertainment experience. Great sound can really bring out the power of high definition video. And speaker placement is essential to experiencing the true impact of movies, music and games."

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

So if speaker placement doesnt matter according to some then why even put surrounds in the back at all...instead lets put them up front. Obviously because their Mixed for different locations. It's true you have a lot more fudge room when you use Quadrapoles compared to Direct Radiating speakers or when you raise them higher than the Front Sound Stage.
But they still need to follow the guidelines as stated by industry professionals. And if you want the most you will follow them precisely. Surround speaker height placement is one of the most effective and easiest of all methods which is why i'm trying to educate the people who are ignorant to this Fact. Don't be a critic when all i'm trying to do is help inform people.

Now if you've got something constructive to add then please enlighten us all instead of Trolling my comments.

FYI for those of you here that know me, I just received a "less than friendly" PM from this guy. I say in my 2nd response that I welcome debate as we can hopefully all share some learning and understanding, but some people resort to calling people (me) a troll for disagreeing with them because of how they are going about things, send me insulting PMs telling me that I am ignorant and that I am wasting people's time with talk about subwoofer placement and so forth. How did we get to this point?

Whatever.

I use QS8s for my rear surround (as mentioned in my first few responses in this thread) and really like it.

Every post has mentioned surround speaker placement for a "7.1" setup as was the original question, and I just bring up some analogy and the example that the diagrams from the people that "created all of the 'facts'" aren't all accurate and have a level of variance, but what do I know... I am just ignorant.

Moving on until someone is willing to have conversation and can debate without insults. Then again, I have no "FACTS" so I am sure that it is a waste of their time to "feed a troll."

Hey, can I join your club? I was told that I was ignorant in a PM. Time to change my avatar to reflect my "true nature." For too long I've been secretly impersonating a "home theater enthusiast" with my other one.

First real explosion I've seen since I started haunting here.
FWIW ( I like starting that way because I know its worthless), I started my axiom adventure with used v2 QS4's which I initially placed as my L & R (impatience, convenience). My first evening with them had me questioning using them at all locations. To me they were the answer.
Moving forward, if I ever has a pile of cash laying around, I will try it out with subs at each location.

Where's your documentation for this?

No one's arguing that speaker placement isn't important. What they're saying is that the rules you're outlining are too rigid to work most people's oddly-shaped rooms. I don't personally know anyone who has a perfect rectangle to work with. I myself won't be able to get my right surround up to the appropriate height, at least not without some creative mounting (which I will at least look into), but I won't feel like I'm missing out by having it around 4' off the floor instead of 5-6'.

But I think the main point of contention is that you shouldn't be so worked up over an entertaining distraction like home theater. Just take it easy, Guy.

Boy this one has really gotten off the rails. I think we should try to put the personal stuff aside for a moment (and much longer really) and realize that there is some great stuff in this thread. As far as answering James’s original question from technical point of view I think JohnK had that covered in an eloquently succinctly way in the second post. And certainly adding to that direct quotes and links to Dolby and THX as AlaskanAVGuy has done gives James all the best technical information available. But beyond that we get to the part that can only happen in a discussion forum like this one, and that is what people actually did and how did it work for them in their opinion. This becomes a situation of the more the merrier and James can take away from it what he wants. I concur that a lot of these situations will be far from ideal and could probably be brought closer to the ideal given the compromises that had to be accommodated for but it also comes down to just simply what they did and how they felt it worked out. Theatre systems in living rooms will almost always involve compromises. I know mine does. But people don’t necessarily want to build a designated theatre room, or even if they did, they would probably still want a system in their living room and that will almost certainly mean compromises. I say let the personal experiment experiences role; as it really is the best way to gain actual knowledge on what happened in various situations. There is no way anyone could conduct all these various ”experiments” on their own and I really enjoy reading what people have tried and how they thought it worked out in the end. The other nice thing about these experiments is most of the people here are enthusiasts about Home Theatre which means they have most likely heard many systems that have been set up very close to the ideal as it is stated from Dolby and THX and this means they are able to give us a very informed opinion on how their compromises worked out.

That's well said Ian,

I'm only trying to bring some of the Fundamentals into this Forum as when I got here it was lacking, only discussing how people Feel Speakers should be placed. I referred to the experts at Dolby & THX who set the Standards.

Now if you were unaware of these standards you are by definition Ignorant: Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge)

If you think i'm bullying your sensitive nature then i'm sorry, but you need to Man-up.

Anyways I'm here to discuss as the Forum topic indicates above how: QS8's are to be used as rear surrounds.

Can anyone here state a reason as to why they cannot place their Surrounds 2'-3'feet above the listening position? I find this to be a very easy option and one of the most effective for giving the viewer the best diffused surround field. I've personally tried both the wrong way and the right and you get much better Atmosphere with THX's recommendations.

If anybody has any questions I would be happy to help as i've read all of the standards for proper speaker placement if you are striving for the best as we all are.

Sources: http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/setu...tm_medium=email

AlaskanAVGuy, I think your most recent post is incredibly arrogant.

Take it to AVS. We want to have fun. You're making it not fun.

This is sweet!

I'm waiting for the Rick Astley to start playing. It's coming... Right?

You've been here since April 1st and have decided that you need to educate everyone else here?

Yeah, the level arrogance is astounding. That's what I'm learning from you.

So Dolby & THX recommendations are arrogant now?

Please tell me about your system so we may discuss it further.

No, saying that all the members of this forum are ignorant and lacking in Fundamentals (whatever that means) based on your experience on a few threads is arrogant.

As for your desperate question about not being able to mount surrounds 2-3' above the head, postulate a wide room (say, 30' wide) where it is not feasible to mount the surrounds on the walls. Further postulate a cathedral ceiling, so that it is not feasible to mount them hanging from the ceiling (or at least, that would break the golden rule of 2-3'). Then realize that perhaps it would be better to place the surrounds on stands in this case rather than to not have them at all.


EDIT: Guys, we're being effectively trolled here. Looking in the who's online, I can see that one of the good ol' problem children is hanging around at the same time as this dude.

I see a lot of attacks on me for educating the public...and i've got over 20yrs researching A/V equipment. Regardless I know what i'm talking about and have the sources where I show the information.

Please stop all of your trolling comments.

I would like to discuss anyones current setup to keep on topic

Wow. Twenty years.
Ever stop to think that we covered all that basic Dolby stuff long before you showed up?

Edit: Done here in this thread. Better things to do.

So you listen to your Home Theater in a Cathedral or have a 30' wide room?

So in other words you can't find fault so you use STRAWMAN ARGUMENTS i'm here trying to inform those that wish to get the most out of their Surrounds, and height placement is easy and very effective.

So you attack my comments and me personally because I aim to inform the uniformed?

Really can you show me your posts where you've already covered this? As this is a forum that is discussing this very question.

Why yes! Some people do have living rooms that are 30' wide with cathedral ceilings. I don't, but I've certainly been in houses that are set up that way.

My rear surrounds are floor standers. I have failed my family name.....

YOU HAVE NO HONOR.

So you don't have that problem and still go out of your way to find fault in
THX's recommendations....i see.

So what are your room dimensions and speaker placements for your surrounds?
What surround speakers are you using?

Dude, you've been here a week. You're behaving badly. Please stop.

You're not the only one here that is familiar with Dolby and THX.

YOU HAVE NO HONOR.

If I was a samurai, sepukku would be my only option.

Good thing I'm not. Phew!

Omg, best avatar ever!!

So because i've only been on This site a week even thou i've spent Decades in the Business I should stop according to you.

If you are familiar with this THX recommendation then why wasn't it discussed on this Forum about Surrounds before I got here?

Can you link me to one of your posts where you have made this very comment in the past?

Tell me about your current setup....

Thanks. The subject of my old avatar is about 2 years older than that pic now, so I thought it was time for a change.

I have purposely tried to keep my comments professional and instead of giving my
personal opinions on correct Speaker Placement I link to the Industry Standards
which have been set forth by companies like Dolby & THX and I try to inform those
that are unaware of how they should ideally be set-up where available.

Yet i'm criticized for trying to educate....
Just because you may know of these standards doesn't mean that
everyone has.

I specifically started my membership here Because of the lack of critical discussion involving these subjects. As I've read none on this Forum. And as other people search the web looking for answers I wanted to help them find the Standards, that way they could strive for perfection.

I'm running out of note pads and my hand have cramps from scribbling so much.

I knew I should have upgraded to electronic medical records!

YOU HAVE NO HONOR.

I have received another email with insults about my intellect.

Oh well, good ol' "Block User" works.

Also, for those people that look back at my posts and wonder if I know anything about this hobby, I have been in it for decades. As in my first 5.1 setup was from around 1988. 26 years for some quick math. I still don't know everything, but I do feel like I know and have experienced quite a bit.

Things have changed, including speaker placement recommendations. Sometimes I have been able to follow the guidelines, sometimes I had to experiment and share those experiments with others to help expand on what to do when you can't do "the ideal."

We are seeing a trend in the industry towards taking the side surrounds and moving them slightly forward of the main seating area. When will this show up in recommendations from the big audio groups? Not sure. Just like surround speakers moving from direct to di/bi/quad pole, the industry evolves. Some of the big groups' diagrams show direct radiating, some show a more "dispersion capable" speaker. Most of those are not direct from Dolby, DTS, or THX.

But once again, to answer the original post (how many times have I done this now?) QS8s for rear surrounds work VERY well.

Imagine if people never experimented or deviated from the "rules." I was going to say that we would be stuck with things like leaded gasoline, and then thought, what about horses... Needed to go back further. No internet, no light bulb, no cars, no real technology as we know it. We would not have invention or innovation. We wouldn't have these forums either and this topic would never exist.

I am glad that people are willing to try something new. Look at the QS surrounds. I know of nobody else doing this and they are amazing. Axiom had to deviate from the "rules" to invent that, same with the LFR speakers. Innovation. I love it!

EDIT: Maybe we should keep score. Naw, not worth it. I just received yet another insulting PM while I typed the above. He thinks that he has had the last laugh with his "ha ha, I got the final insult" PM, but I really don't care. I don't know him, and I only bring it up for the better of the community so that they know the type of person they are dealing with when it comes to anything that comes out of his keyboard. The funny thing is that he called me an "old man" because I've been at this for 26 years, and yet he has "been in the business for decades." Considering I started as a teenager...

This topic is done. Beaten to death. I've set up my user block and I am moving on. Let go find another place to share knowledge and helpfulness and let this topic go.

Enough said

+1

I think that I am going to revive a thread in the watercooler. Go check it out in a little bit.

The reason that the industry has moved surrounds forwards is simple, we now have 4 instead of 2. You can experiment yourself but if you want the closest to perfection the industry standards are usually the best options because they have actually researched different placement options and understand how movies are recorded and mixed accordingly.
As most people don't have RTA (Real Time Analysis) they just guess as to what sounds the best.
I personally use the THX recommendations along with Audyssey and then my RTA and SPL meter to fine tune my system.

However if you own a set of QS's then your Speaker Placement can have a lot more wiggle room than Direct Radiating options which are quickly becoming more scarce in a Home Theater Surround capacity.

Follow the advice from the professionals it's your best option if your new and ignorant to how Acoustics work and don't have an RTA set-up. This is the best advice anyone can give to a newbie. Which is use Diffused Speakers over Direct for surrounds specifically and mount them all 2'-3'feet above the listener.

So here's the Industry's answer to Blastermaster Original Question and Forum Discussion: "I am wondering if anyone can chime in as to whether or not it would be better to get direct firing bookshelf speakers for the rear or would it be better to get another pair of QS8s (or even just one)? "

Is this is someone's new social experiment? Minus the humour part?

hint......

----------------
REFLECT but Verify

yes Murph
this is how a bored manitoban taunts a prince edward islandian
er, islandan?
islander?

There were go. Islander!

This is all quite entertaining. I do however, miss Bbigwyrs. 41 of the funniest posts I've ever read on this forum.

The term "ignorance" is also being used as a disguised insult here, despite its definition. NOT cool. I don't appreciate your tone, telling others to "man up" as an example. If some folks can't get their surrounds to proper positions because of room restrictions and yet enjoy what they're hearing, who cares if they're "incorrect"?!

" If your viewing environments are that bad to begin with and your trying to build a nice Home Theater System then perhaps you should spend some money on a proper room first instead of buying speakers. "

There's a point where your arrogance becomes much more revealing than any "education" you claim to grace us with. Thanks for the informative links.

Nice addition Spoiler.

What is funny is that I was told to "man-up, quit being a child, stop being an old man, don't be ignorant..." but the interesting thing is that he said all of that to a guy (me) who has a room build specifically for home theater with all speakers within the exact guidelines (he called them "FACTS") that he talked about. How the heck do you call someone ignorant if they are already doing everything that you are telling people that they need to do?

The guy made no sense and went about everything so wrong.

I am sure that as others suggested, this thread will be linked elsewhere as "See how these Axiom people won't listen to 'FACTS'? They know nothing and don't care about audio anything."

Anyone that comes here and reads the entire threads that get linked will see through that since it is clear that he was being the exact opposite of what almost any forum would want in a user/member.

I don't think that there is any more to add. Who knew that when BlasterMaster created this topic that this all would happen. LOL

Yeah, thanks a lot, BlasterMaster, IF that is your real name ...

Don't be silly. His real name is James. Geez