I was wondering if anyone had any input on the HSU subs. I see their new VTF-3 (MKII) is going to be released with standard finish (as an alternative to the originally intended piano black gloss). They're taking pre-orders on it for $699 - free shipping. I figure that's a pretty good deal considering the STF-3 is $599 + $50 shipping and was supposed to be the value line.

I don't know if they'll do the same thing with the VTF-2 MKII. It's possible because from what I understand they're having trouble with the piano finish.

Anyway, my point was...assuming I wanted to jump on either the VTF-2 or 3 (new MKII models), does anyone have any opinion on the difference between the 2 and the 3. I fear that the 3 might be too much and overwhelm my room unless I have a concert hall in my basement. What about speakers? Can the wrong sub overwhelm those?

When I buy my Axioms I'll either end up with the 60's or the 22's

While I want to get the best deal, It's never a good deal if you don't need it.

Just a word of caution, but it appears as if Hsu is having significant issues with the STF-2 on driver seals as well as amplifier gain settings. I had one for a few hours from CompUSA, found out that mine was afflicted with the dreaded "Darla" disease,(named after the scene in Finding Nemo that reveals the flaw) and returned it for credit,since I wasn't sure if the replacement, when available at my local CompUSA, would have the same symptoms. I bought an EP175, and so far it is fine with my m50's, Vp100 & Qs4's...
b.

Yes, I know they had some early issues. I've got a while to let things shake out, but they have a good track record from what I've been able to tell so I figure I'll wait to see.

One good review or product doesn't endorse an entire brand and one bad model or production run shouldn't do the opposite.

Thanks for the heads up though.

-Nick

I bought a Bstock VTF-2 to go w/ my M22's, VP150 and QS8's. Very happy w/ the setup. Got my Hsu for a lot less then the normal price. I'd recommend getting on the bstock list for any of their subs (if you're interested still) and it'll take about a month or so.

It's a shame that the STF-2 was initially plagued by bad QA. Also a shame that Hsu didn't handle it well. BUT, I'd still buy again from Hsu because I think this is an anomaly and they sure won't let it happen again. I'm very happy w/ my purchase. I don't think it's blissful ignorance, just reality. I have a 96 Ford Explorer w/ 140K miles. I changed the tires after the whole fiasco and I'm still very happy w/ it. I'd even go and buy another new Explorer. Similar case w/ Hsu. And I must admit, the new VTF2's in piano black are gorgeous.

Nick,
I totally agree about making a snap judgement, and I had heard of Hsu around the same time I heard about Axiom. I really wanted to own an Hsu product, and the STF-2 was what Dr. Hsu recommended in an email to me. It's unfortunate that they are having new product start up issues on their import line, but I've had several emails from Dr. Hsu regarding their quality issue, and I was impressed that he would take the time personally to answer my questions. I didn't want to wait until they worked out their problems, and since this was starting, or is continuing to be, an obsession, I just went with Axiom. So far, so good...
b.

Back to your original question...

How big is your room? Unless it's quite small, I doubt the VTF/STF-3 would "overpower" you. Just because it can go louder, doesn't mean you have to push it that hard. You'll still benefit from it's lower extension.

Personally I'd go with the VTF-3 MKII if your budget can swing it. When I bought mine, the VTF-3 was $849, and I couldn't afford that. (I still LOVE my VTF-2 though!)

Bob, they did have probs with SOME of the STF2's. I would be ticked if I got stuck with one of them to, but, they have proposed an answer and I hope we don't have to go into the same argument here as there is on HSU and AVS and....

That said. I got in on the STF3 when IT had free shipping so it was $599 flat. GREAT sub. A great sub will not overwhelm your main speakers unless you set it wrong. I don't see how you could go wrong with the VTF MK2.

I had M22/VP100/QS8/STF-2, upgraded to M60/VP150, keeping the STF-2. Am now upgrading to VTF-3R. I need a finished sub and the piano black VTF-3 Mk2 has an uncertain ship date. Room size is 20x16. I never had any problems with the STF-2.

Based on my experiences so far, I'd suggest the M60 and STF-2, unless you have a very large room or need a finely finished sub exterior. While the M22/STF-2 was very nice, the M60s are better. IOW I'd prioritize the M60s over a more expensive sub, since the STF-2 is already very capable. But I may modify this recommendation after I get my VTF-3R

That said, if you have a large room, maybe the STF-3 would have more kick. If you want a finely finished sub exterior your options are VTF-3R (now) or VTF-2/3 Mk2 in piano black or rosewood (eventually). But even the "plain" black vinyl subs aren't really bad looking.

But don't over analyze the options. You really can't go wrong with any of the combinations -- they all sound very good.

Much as I like the M22-to-M60 improvement, I heard bigger improvements while on the M22s just by optimizing listening position, speaker angle, speaker calibration level, and source material. So don't sweat the product decision to the exclusion of these items.

E.g. the M22-to-M60 was a nice modest improvement. However going from a poorly mastered stereo CD to a well-mastered Digital Dolby 5.1, DTS 5.1, multichannel SACD or DVD-A is a vast improvement.

With Axiom speakers, a good receiver and sub, you become much more aware of source material quality issues. Bad material is really bad, and good material is really, really good. After getting your Axiom speakers it's like hearing your current collection for the first time.

joema makes some good points.

1) Positioning makes a huge difference. Toeing in my M22's changes the sound drastically.

2) Source material is an often forgotten factor. There's no substitute for fantastically recorded material. Bad material may sound awesone on a so-so system, but on a good system, it'll sound horrible. On a good system, you'll be able to really appreciate great recordings. For me in particular, I've found that because of poor recordings, I only listen to about 10% to 20% of my original 800+ CD collection because some of them are just too awful now...

Just a good word - my STF-2 from CompUSA (bought 3 weeks ago) handled the Finding Nemo Darla-aquarium scene with no problems, several times. The only problem (mentioned on an earlier thread) was that it knocked a framed photograph off the living room wall, and the glass broke from impact. So you can get a good one from CompUSA. Ours has had no gain problems (hadn't heard about those) or issues of any kind and works great.

Birdman

I appreciate the input from everyone on this.

1. As discussed, there's little point in getting into the mistakes HSU might have made. Suppliers and manufacturers make mistakes. Companies that sell their product do too. Sometimes they even make mistakes trying to right their previous mistakes . Unless they refuse to do the right thing when it gets determined I'm not too concerned.

2. As far as the piano black finish goes, it's not a huge priority for me. However if I'm going to get a sub I would prefer it be composed of the "newest" technologies my chosen company utilizes. From what I understand that will be the case in the MKII and STF series.

3. If anything the fact that they'll be offering the MKII series without the piano finish is a selling point for me. I don't really need a glossy sub because it's not likely to be a center piece of the room. However the light-up badge has appeal!

4. If I've learned anything from my time here, I've learned that positioning and space is a vital concern. The speakers need to be position correctly, and given enough room between to have the desired effect. When I figure out the room size it'll definately be a consideration.

5. I appreciate the additional input on the difference between the 60's and the 22's, everyone generally raves about both so recognizing that there IS a difference is useful advice.

6. If I had my choice based on what I'd read I would probably choose either the 22's or the 60's and pair them with the VTF-2 MKII (unfinished).

I just wouldn't want to miss an excellent deal on a VTF-3 MKII if it will be an improvement over the -2 without detracting from the rest of my system or overwhelming its environment.

As usual this board is a perfect match of knowledge and useful advice. Any other input is appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick