I am still in the planning stage of a home theatre setup. I lost my earlier setup to a fire in the apartment. Earlier I had a Yamaha 5550 receiver that I really liked with Infinity speakers all around.

I started my doing some research on the web and noticed that the denon 3803/5 had some really good reviews and so I did a comparison in my local shop choosing a set of infinity fronts with similar music(rock first then country and jazz). I found that I really liked denon 3805 which was in stock over the yamaha rx-v1400. The yammy rxv-1400 which was my original choice sounded to me a little thin and bright, as compared to Denon which sounded deep and warm. I felt I liked the denon for the music. Unfortunately the sales person could not get a movie working for me to compare. The salesman told me that it was due to the extra 10W of the denon (120 v/w 110 ) of the yamaha. Anyway, long story short, denon 3805 retails for $1200 which is more that what I want to pay. Doing some research on denon website, I am leaning more towards the denon 2803 or 3803. I would prefer 2803 if there is not too significant changes between the two . Could the 2803/3803 owners pl. pass on their advice whether to upgrade to 3803 ? here are main differences I found out from Denon website.

(1) 3803 has 10w/ch more (110 v/s 90), more I/O and LCD Remote - I dont mind those .

(2) 3803 has 4 independent power supplies vs 1 in 2803 - how significant is that ? Does it mean the 2803 gets heated up real quick ?

(3) 3803 has the Burr Brown DAC - does that mean anything ?

(4) 3803 has video conversion - How important is this ? Can switching using 3803 be better than direct component connection to a TV ?

(5) 3803 seems to have a Dual surround mode selector and audio signal delay -what is this ?

(6) 3803 has a pure direct mode on digital/analog input - how different it is from the stereo/direct modes on the 2803 ?

Have any 2803 owners here felt that it was underpowered at 90W ?
any comments appreciated...

It was a $tretch getting into the 2803, so the 3803 was never really a consideration. That said, I don't regret anything about the 2803.

As far as features and connctions, I have more than I can come close to using. But they seem to keep the upgraditis at bay. I like knowing I can use the rear surround channels as a separate zone, for example. And little by little, I'm learning more about it, without ever feeling like it's lacking.

I can't guarantee that the 2803 will sound as good as the 3803, but I think you'll find the Denon's 90wpc will still sound better than the Yamaha's "110." (From what I understand, Yamaha's power ratings are based on one channel driven; Denon's are more understated and "truer" into multiple channels.)

As to the power supply question, I haven't had any problem with it heating. It hardly gets even noticeably warm, nevermind excessively hot.

Happy shopping,

Roger

thanks for your help. Its just that I dont want to be in a position of buyin the 2803 and then realizing that I missed out on some feature (in 3803) that I really wanted. I am going to try to find a local shop that has both the 3803 and 2803...Hey how does the 2803 perform w.r.t music and movies. Does it do music better ?

I have the 2803 and have been very happy with it, but I still lust for the 3805 (that's just me...looking for what is just beyond my reach).

The receiver has not gotten very warm, which I think would be the case as long as it is reasonably well ventilated due to the class of amp being used in most a/v receivers.

The 90 watts per channel has been fine in my room, but more is better so stepping up to the 3803 or 3805 is not a bad idea for that reason alone - especially if you like it loud for extended periods of time.

The video upconversion is one feature that I wish the 2803 had...I don't know how many times I have had to go over how to switch from dvd to tv with my wife and kids (first change the input on the tv, then change audio source on the receiver). I use the remote to control all my components so anything to simplify the process would be a welcome relief.

If I had to do it over again I would have probably bought a factory refurb from someplace like Dakmart (they've had the 3805 for something like $850). I've also seen a refurb of the 3803 from ecost for $499 at one point. I think they've got the 2803 for $459 right now.

At any rate, Denon makes good equipment so I don't think you would be disappointed with either the 2803 or 3803.

Good luck.

I demo-ed (in store) the 1802(?), 2802, 3803, and Sony ES something ($500 on sale). They all sounded identical in DD 5.1 with MIB playing through Klipsch Reference speakers. I thought maybe, just maybe, the Denons had more midrange resolution, but the wife said, "No, they sound the same." The power differences are apparently negligible in real world applications. Maybe the 3803 has better bass management features?

Regarding the audio signal delay of the 3803 - I have a buddy who had the 2803 and he noticed a phase delay between his audio and video. I don't know the specifics of his setup so I don't know what was causing it but he ended up upgrading to the 3803 to fix the problem. You may want to look into this further. There may be more detailed info posted somewhere. Just thought I'd mention it.

Pete

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I have a buddy who had the 2803 and he noticed a phase delay between his audio and video.

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Not to pick nits, but I assume you mean "lip flap" where what you see and hear don't coincide - it's not usually a problem with a receiver, it's usually a problem with either the DSP or the speaker distance settings.

I've noticed that some receivers assume sound travels at a walking pace... the idea is to adjust the timing of the sound so it hits your ears at the right moment, but they seem to overcompensate, the difference in delay between say, your mains being 12ft away and 12.5ft away is 380 microseconds (0.000380 millisecond) but there is an audible difference as you step through the speaker distance settings on some receivers, and my Yamaha, for instance seems to swap phase 180 deg between full and half feet.

Another one of those times when it's best to turn off the DSP effects and ignore the numbers and look and listen to what SOUNDS right.

Bren R.

You're smart to try to A/B both models; there's no better way to eliminate "what if?" syndrome.

FWIW, try to determine what features and functions you actually need, and/or will realistically use, before you shop. That way you're not allowing the gee-whiz factor dictate your needs. Just my $.02 from having experienced "budget creep" while I was comparing: "What? For an extra $100 I can get the Gee-gaw-o-matic®? I never knew I needed that; I'll take two!"
In all fairness, I feel like I can rationalize everything I spent. But it's easy to get carried away if you don't have a plan going in.

As to music vs. movies performance, I have no complaints. Quite the opposite. 'Course, this being my first HT/Surround setup, I'm pretty easily impressed. I haven't really pushed the SPL envelope yet (waiting for my wife to go shopping for a few hours), but I've gotten it to ~75dB on music and some LFE-rich movies (The Right Stuff, The Fifth Element, Monsters, Inc., Raiders o/t Lost Ark), all DD 5.1, and it takes about three days for the grin to wear off.

One thing I liked about the Denon over the Yamahas was that it actually has fewer DSP modes. Enough to play with, but not so many that you feel like they could have put expense and energy to better use in, say, the amp section.

For music, I keep it on Direct (L/R+sub) most of the time. I dabbled with the 5-channel stereo for a bit (must...justify...all...speakers...) but somehow less is, as it turns out, more.

Raiders of the Lost Ark...love the part where he's fighting that huge guy under the prop. plane. That'll give your surround speakers a little bit of a workout.

Good call Shrubber, my main complaint about the Yamaha's is TOO MANY DSP Modes. It seems like it takes 1/2 the buttons on the remote that could be better used for something else.

I never use the DSP modes. They all sound like crap. Sometimes I use 5 channel stereo while watching F1 or college football, but otherwise all that seems to be required is DD/DTS and Direct/Stereo.

What is the difference in the price of the 2803 and 3803? Enough to upgrade your speakers or sub? IMO, that would be the better route than popping for a pricier receiver and shorting yourself elsewhere.

BigWill, does ur reciever have NEO mode, the sourround is more alive while playing music CDs in this mode......chck it out if u got it

i concur.. i think the 'neo6 music' mode sounds the best for general music listening. i have found that the 'stereo all channel' is good for some of the grungier heavy metal tracks i like, but it mainly stays on the neo6.

if i remember correctly, there are only about 10 dsp modes on the onkyo 701, but i hardly ever use them.. i did find one that sounded good while watching a nascar race.. cant remember which setting it was??

bigjohn

Wow, I thought most everybody here listened to CDs in 2 channel. What do you guys like about Neo6 for music? I do use Neo6 on occasion (or DPLII) for non-5.1 DVDs, but for music???

Neo6 Music adds in the centers and surrounds to fill in the gaps, once you throw your mains out to the wings for HT (how many 2 channel guys have 12 feet between their mains?), they seem too wide for stereo listening to me, also, with the surrounds cut out, everything seems too "front heavy" (for obvious reasons).

I use Neo6 Music for music listening assuming I'm facing or sort of facing the TV (sitting on the couch talking, etc) and 6 Channel Stereo if I'm puttering around the room (otherwise when I face south the surrounds are in my left ear, in front when I face east, etc)

Bren R.

i agree with bren, the neo6 lets the center channel fill that void in the middle. the 701 has a 'neo6 cinema' for movies.. and a 'neo6 music' for, well, music. the cinema mode tends to really put the voice in the center channel. helps on tv shows and talk shows.

to follow brens lead, i also like the 'all channel stereo' when moving around the room. it puts a general more stable sound around the whole room, instead of in one specific spot.

bigjohn

thanks for all the inputs...regarding ericb's comments

>If I had to do it over again I would have probably bought >a factory refurb from someplace like Dakmart (they've had >the 3805 for something like $850). I've also seen a >refurb of the 3803 from ecost for $499 at one point. I >think they've got the 2803 for $459 right now.


I have always wanted to know...

1) has anyone on this board got a denon refurb ?
2) If so, how long have you had it and how does it sound ?
3) If you had any issues with it, pl. share it here so that we can all know.

I was planning on getting a 2803 with a pair of M60's to start off and then later on add the VP150 with the QS4s. ( I know I will miss the HT discount, but thats the way it is...). But I go for the 3803 instead, I will have to put off buying for a while...

With my mains 9-10' apart and me 13' away 2 channel sounds great, HT great.

I assumed everybody set their mains up for music first and HT second. I guess we all have different priorities, eh?

I had a Denon refurb 3803 from DakMart and it was very good. No problems whatsoever but I wanted more power so I sold it and got a HK AVR-7200. There was a noticeable difference in power although the 7200 has it's quirks.

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With my mains 9-10' apart and me 13' away 2 channel sounds great, HT great.

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Very strange... my measurements are nearly the same (10' between, 13' away) and I find straight stereo sounds a bit awkward. It's all perception I'm sure though, since my last stereo setup (as a late teen) was about the same and seemed fine to me then, think I've gotten used to hearing a centre channel now and I miss it when it's not there.

Strangely, at work, I work almost exclusively with single channel and don't miss the stereo separation.

Bren R.

my m60s are toed-in.

i tried that neo6 for music when i came home. i didn;t like it everything seemed to be coming out of the center channel way up on top of the tv.

Denon just announced the 2805. It is on their website now. Here is the link:

http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/products.asp?l=1&c=2

You've been around long enough, Snippy, you should know how to make proper links!