Joey, I know you have been frustrated in your attempts to get your point across to the members here. I have an idea. If memory serves, you are in Greater Chicago. If you are willing to fly to Erie (pretty easy through Cleveland), I will re-imburse you for your travel. You bring the Polks with you, and I will set both the Polks and the Axiom M22Ti's on identical stands, and we will conduct blind tests. As you are listening to each speaker, I will take note of your listening impressions, and we will post the notes.
As they are both bookshelf speakers, we will use two Rocket UFW-10 subwoofers with each speaker, and our McIntosh Amp and a modded Denon 2900.
You bring your own music...and both speakers will be level matched...
(Lloyd): Sounds like a dare Harry. (Bad Guy) It's a double Dare!
I will be on a quick biz trip ... one night out of town, let's see where this goes in the meantime ....
Seems like a reasonably fair test. I would trust Craig to be sure both speakers got a fair shake. Do I understand correctly that the Polk's are $1300, and the 22s are $400?
nice reference!
i keep getting a mental image of going thru baggage check with some big ole speakers in your carry on!!??!!
bigjohn
This would be interesting how could he say no.You could definetly know the test would be a fair one with Craigsub doing the reporting.
Craig! Doing reviews again?!
Inane... The infamous "death by audio" e-mail was traced as far as California, and appears to be nothing of concern...I will be avoiding one hostile forum... and I will stay involved in audio...
Thanks... An open question... Aren't Californians supposed to be mellow ?
I dunno, I wouldn't cut people off on the freeway in LA...
especially in a subaru
bigjohn
If I was driving a Subaru, I would drive myself off the road. (Note, my dealerships are all domestic, and that was a joke...:))
If I was driving a domestic car, I wouldn't have a chance to drive myself off the road...it would break down first.
(Yes, I own a Subaru, but it's the WRX)
I dunno? I've never thought of you as a domestic.
And yes, my fellow forum members, Craig is.....(shudder).....a CAR SALESMAN! (actually he OWNS car dealerships. He doesn't work himself, he's a gentleman of leisure.
)
Jack If there were not laws regarding abusing the elderly, I would have to kick your butt for that one...
My primary company (where I actually DO work...heh heh) is insurance type of extended warranties for cars... We have to provide in each state what the actual breakdowns per first 100,000 miles are in a car, let me know if you want the inside scoop...
Craig, I am absolutely delighted to have your participation here. I've always enjoyed your writing, and respected the process behind it.
Moreover, I'm astounded by the generosity of your offer to help test the Polks. Very gracious.
Are you willing to share your vehicular wisdom with us? This is probably not the right thread for it, but I am always interested in learning, especially from those with insider knowledge. I guess I just desperately want somebody to give me faith enough to buy something besides a Honda or Toyota.
Thanks for being here.
Honda and Toyota build great vehicles, no doubt. GM and Ford are now within 5 % of them for breakdown expense, though they are still about 20% short in the overall "feel" of the cars... It is frustrating as a dealer when we keep telling the factory that if they spent $500 more "up front" they would match the best Japan has to offer, and in the long run they would save money in rebates ... Right now, in the FreeStar van, rebates are running $6000... and I think Explorer has $4000...
Maybe we should open a "car nut" thread somewhere...
And thanks for the warm welcome, it is much appreciated...
In reply to:
Maybe we should open a "car nut" thread somewhere...
Anytime you want to open an OT (off topic) thread, just go to the "Questions and Comments" section under the "Main Index." We've got an
SUV thread going there right now.
There's also a
"neighbors from hell" thread going on in the "Advice from Axiom Owners" section, which probably should be in the "Questions and Comments" section. James R has won that one, HANDS DOWN.
I just posted something about American cars over in the "Qs and Comments" section before I saw this. Oh well.
Just because it says "Made in Japan" on it doesn't mean it ain't gonna break. I know from lots of experience.
This thread has been totally hi-jacked. I like that. Threads that stay on topic are BORING. I will be exploring this place more...
Oh we hijack with the best of them. Wait until the West coast guys get home from work and start posting.
Besides, whadaya expect when Joey apparently is not interested in your offer. Shoot, if I didn't have responsibilities here, you could fly me and my Axioms up there for a visit.
What is this "
get home from work and start posting" thing you speak of?
for real!! i just keep the forum up on my desktop at work, then jump in every hour or so and see whats up.
its good that there are a low amount of flashy graphics.. that way, it isnt so obvious that i aint working.. i know, thats sneaky, but what can i say??
bigjohn
Agreed...I monitor this board off and on all day while I am at work...
If I open it up at home, the wife asks "Why are you on that page again now that you have your speakers?"
I have tried to explain the camaraderie of this place, but she does not get it...
WhatFurrer
Well I was just being polite. I didn't wanna accuse you guys of being negligent on the job. But now, since you've let the cat out of the bag......
It's called multi-tasking.
I have three computers at my desk, one of which usually has a browser open to here. I get a lot of work done on slow days.
I leave it up on my laptop all the time, always on Who's Online... I'm only offline when the laptop's asleep!
In reply to:
let the cat out of the bag
crap, i forgot to do that.. i was too busy mulit-tasking between the axiom forum, the spot, and the denon press release!!
dont worry, i will get around to doin it!!
bigjohn
What are you talking about these guys having jobs, Jack... If they had jobs, they would buy more expensive speakers... (teasing, of course)... This Axiom forum is as warped as any of them... Does anyone here know if you can pick up speakers at the Buffalo Depot ?
I dont know about the Buffalo Depot but there is a white van around here you can get some speakers at real good price.
Now THERE will be a crack up.... when the white van guys get a website and their own forum....
Haven't got the faintest idea. What's the Buffalo Depot? OH wait. Is that where the speakers go when you send them back? I still don't know. My speakers always came from the Factory. I think! Not a lot of help am I.
I read somewhere that you could send speakers back if you did not want them... I was wondering if they were going to allow pick up there...
I'm assuming that you are asking if they would allow you to deliver the returned speakers to the Buffalo Depot, rather than incur shipping charges to Buffalo. I STILL don't know. DUH!
Actually I was wondering if they were going to do a "B" stock sale from the Depot on any returns... rather than taking them back...someone could get them at a reduced price right at the Depot
Ah! Now I understand. I STILL don't know.
I've never heard of such a sale. I'll suggest the obvious. Give Axiom a call, or send Amie an email, and ask them. For you, they might make a special deal. Might not?
Special deal... original price plus 10 % ...? heh heh...I do think a test of a larger speaker is in order. The M22Ti's were tested in a far larger room than Axiom would suggest...
Are we still coveting a pair of 80s or even 60s? Hmmmmm?
Jack, I never covet. I just figure a way to get speakers into the house without getting caught...
LOL!!!!! And you're very good at it aren't you? The 60s would be a good comparison to the 550s and 340s. The 550s and 60s are their respective companies 2nd tier offerings. Add the VP150 and QS8s, and you've got a $1620 system. Didn't you already have a VP150 that you returned?
Craig,
here's what Alan said about returns.
Jack - I still have the M22Ti's and a VDP150... Right now they are not hooked up. They are tenatively sold to a gent from Cleveland. It could be fun to try a pair of 60's or 80's, especially with all the stuff we have here.
What I need are a couple AVS trolls to claim I am on Ian's payroll... then I could get the employee "re-purchase" price on a return.
By the way, I have found it FAR easier to demo/review speakers in Hi-Rez two channel... than in a 5/7 channel system.
I wonder the 80s or 60s would sound like with the SVS B4 sub. YIPES!
I am sure the Axioms would sound pretty darn good with the B4+ ...
Thanks John. I remember reading that before, but my age is my excuse. Memory is the 2nd thing to go, ya know.
Craig, John is a Browns fan. John, Craig is Browns fan.
I'll bet they WOULD sound great with that monster. Good with the 4 UFW-10s too, I'd wager.
John, As Jack said, thanks. Hopefully we will not suck this year. Being a Browns fan is not easy...
AMIE... if you are listening, We need to get some 80's or 60's here...
Craig, we Trust in Butch(at least for one more year).
Now that's what I like. OPTIMISM! Sheesh!
Butch IS Football genius... Afterall, there was that draw play against the Steelers on 3rd and 37....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess I just desperately want somebody to give me faith enough to buy something besides a Honda or Toyota.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom, I feel exactly the same way. My wife and I have owned 5 new Honda's within the past 10 years, and I couldn't imagine switching to domestic. There are no sedans or vans from the big 3 that even remotely interest me. If Ford imported
this car, I would probably jump ship. They would have a true contender, just as long as they didn't water down the suspension, styling, or horsepower.
As a side note, every Honda I've owned was either built in Ohio or Ontario. Further, I believe they had enough North American content to be classified as a "domestic".
In reply to:
Craig, John is a Browns fan. John, Craig is Browns fan
i always wondered what was wrong with you guys??
GO COWBOYS!!
bigjohn
I'm gonna throw up!
I wonder why the wagon version has live axle suspension. There is a market for wagons that perform well...
Other than that, gimme gimme gimme...
Craigsub:
Axiom set up the Buffalo depot to avoid all the hassle of customs forms, declarations, etc. for US customers returning Axiom speakers across the border to Canada.
If you do your listening comparisons with Joey, try starting off listening to just one speaker of each brand in mono. You can isolate differences in tonal balance very quickly and accurately. Set up the two different speakers fairly close to each other, but not so close that the enclosures would cause interference effects, equalize the output levels, conceal the identity, and switch back and forth. Then you can move on to the stereo tests.
One of the very real problems controlling stereo listening comparisons is the shift in the soundstage when you go from one pair to the other. Not only that, but just the different locations of the other stereo pair introduce variables than may cause you to choose one pair over another. We used rotating turntables at the NRC in Canada when we did stereo sessions. An assistant would rotate the second pair into exactly the same location in the room when we switched from one pair to the other.
What was surprising was that the relative rankings assigned to competing brands did not change from the mono to the stereo tests. All the scores rose a few points in stereo, but the rank order remained unchanged. I would expect the same would apply for tests of 5.1 channel surround systems.
In other words, an inferior inaccurate speaker remains that, whether you listen in mono, stereo or multichannel. Mono listening comparisons are a rigorous test of speaker accuracy and fidelity.
Regards,
Hey Bukos... looks like we need a rematch!
You have a couple of large lazy susans at your disposal?
In reply to:
If you do your listening comparisons with Joey, try starting off listening to just one speaker of each brand in mono. You can isolate differences in tonal balance very quickly and accurately. Set up the two different speakers fairly close to each other, but not so close that the enclosures would cause interference effects, equalize the output levels, conceal the identity, and switch back and forth. Then you can move on to the stereo tests.
I also found this to help make differetiating characteristics very easy. Using an A/B switch in stereo listening also is a tremedous help. Audio memory is so terrible with us humans, instant switching really helps us.
Alan... Bless you, Testing in mono is my favorite.
I fear Joey has no intention of taking you up on your offer. That might be because he has no intention of coming to this forum again.
Jack, You are right except one thing, take fear out of it. I never thought he would take me up on it. Noone wants blind testing as a part of opinion already stated... too hard to live up to. Remember my Rock-Papers-Scissors joke ?
Silly me!
One of the things my friends appreciate about my getting old, is that I forget their old jokes, so they get to tell them to me all over again. Refresh my memory!
Ok... If you remember, I somewhat preferred the ELT-Cse over the M22Ti... and the Ascend 170 was a slight winner (1 point out of 80) over the ELT... If I did a blind test again, and the, for example, M-22 beat the 170, would that be a Rock-Paper-Scissors ? ... Blind testing can really make a fool out of ... well... anyone
I remember now. I had forgotten. Uh.......huh?.......What did I forget? Oh Well!
Forget blind testing... Your natural state is better than drugs...
craig,
more than willing to have that blind test with you except that you live so far and i have far more pressing matters than audio comparison... but your offer is mighty enticing i must say.
joey
No surprise. You were right, Craig.
Ajax... I know from where you come on this... Joey... I have been involved in blind testing since before you were born. Starting in 1977 to be exact. You decided to disagree with me on HTS about my position about your "review", and this was AFTER I complimented you on it (the review).
So we are clear, the review itself, though lacking anything approaching scientific in nature, was well written. Then you decided your feelings were bruised here. Posting this review here was nothing short of insulting.
You have been offer a chance to prove your findings, at my expense, but your time is too valuable. Nice try on this, but you, young man, have a lot to learn.
I cant disagree with you craig? BTW, thanks for the shill remark.
I never said I knew everything neither did I mention that I knew enough about audio because I dont. I am so new to this hobby that compared to you, I have nil experience... you did not have to make that remark about your being involved in blind testing since before I was born - I get it you know.
I was being sincere in my saying that your offer is enticing and I would take it if I had the time and capability to (med school starts in 3 weeks, I am booked for work at the hospital for the next 2.5 weeks). I said "enticing" and I meant it, I really really wanted to hear the Onix Reference 3 that you have, the B4, your 4 UFWs. I was even trying to think of what kind of conversations we would have and my learning much from my visit with you. However, at this moment in time, there is no plausible way I can pay this visit to you. I would love to do the blind-test but I cant. I cant put audio before all my other priorities and obligations, atleast not to this magnitude of an audio adventure.
Sorry I cant go.
Oh, before I forget to mention it, thanks again for calling me a shill. Appreciate it very much Craig. Lastly, nice try on editing your post and removing your great comment.
Joey, I edited it within minutes pf postng it because I thought it was harsh. YOU are the one who decided it needed printed permanently. YOU are the one who decided to teach these guys a lesson. When you start saying things like "The Axiom's soundstage was DESTROYED" ... etc... on the Axiom board, you have violated the concept of good manners.
You are now trying to make up for this by posting how great Axiom speakers are again. They are on heck of a speaker, but here is some advice about being a reviewer, should you decide you DO have the time for a review.
Review the product with the idea of getting the best performance from it.
Not with the idea that "You have every right to show those guys that Joey can write a review".
I have nothing against you personally, but I do think you decided to punish these guys for "taking shots" at you.
Had I done the same after the beating I took from the Hsu forum, the VTF-3 would have been savaged.
Jack can chime in here, he witnessed the carnage first hand.
Be at peace, Joey... and enjoy your Polks.
In reply to:
Jack can chime in here, he witnessed the carnage first hand
Carnage? It was extreme cruelty. I have to chuckle when others talk about what "meanies" we are at this forum. It can get sarcastic here, and we are, at times harsher than I'd like, though often it's earned by the behavior of the victim. But, after witnessing what Craig endured at the HSU forum (and has since endured at other forums), what goes on here is a tea party.
Joey, as I said over at the spot, I'm sure you're a fine young man. But, from our point of view, you charged in here overturning furniture and breaking windows, and then were disappointed when we didn't applaud you for it. Go back and read your review thread. The first criticism you received was that some felt you "wanted" the Polks to win. In other words you had a bias and allowed that bias to influence your decision. Examples from your review were cited to support this contention. There was nothing nasty about any of it, but you immediately were angered and showed it.
You were also upset that someone criticized your grammar. The person that did that is a teacher, and he even put a smiley at the end of the criticism to show his good will. You chastised him for the criticism and corrected HIS punctuation. He responded "You're right about my punctuation - I do know better....I wasn't being critical of your choice of words to be mean - I actually was trying to help. Maybe in the future I'll send PMs....No offense intended on any front. Good luck with the Polks." How much more polite could he get? Yet, in several threads over at the SPot, you cite these things (among others) as being examples of your being "savaged" over here. Often after you explained you position, you would get a response like this from one of the members "Joey, I took your intent to be ill-natured mischief. If I had you wrong, then I apologize for my harsh reaction." But, you appear to selectively fail to remember those reactions. All that sticks in your mind is the insults.
I believe Craig is correct. You wanted to "punish" us, so you did it in the worst way. You ran over to the relative safety of the SPot and in three different threads, one of them in the Onix/Rocket forum of all things, you, and the 5 or 6 others who agree with you, proceeded to do exactly the same thing over there that you accuse us of doing over here.
Were you insulted here? Yes you were. But not about your review. You were insulted AFTER spamming the forum with a classified ad, and when criticized for it, responding with your own snappish posting. That doesn't justify you're getting snapped at in return, but it does explain it.
I have two pieces of advice (though I doubt you are interested in hearing them). One, if you intend to continue publicly comparing speakers, try to develop a thicker skin. No matter what you say or how you say it, SOMEBODY isn't going to like it and is going to tell you so. You can't please everybody. Two, try to couch your criticism of the "losing" speaker in terms that will not make owners of that particular speaker feel bad about owning them. Not easy, I know. Craig does it very well.
I echo Craig's words. Be at peace. Let it rest. Move on. Be happy. Enjoy the Polks. Good fortune.
you guys (craig especially) tell me to be at peace with my polks and yet you create this HUGE thread and call me out? what am i missing here?
i am at peace. i dont need to prove to anyone (craig or anybody else) anything.
craig,
you have enough money, why not just buy a pair of lsi7 and conduct your own test? why do you even need me there? why even bother with my opinions, afterall, i know nearly zilch compared to you?
you got pm.
we should really end this thread... this thread does not add anything to the axiom forum.
Craig can't just go out and buy any set of speakers he feels like comparing. It's also more fun to compare with others, especially those of differing opinions, to see what the other person likes and to both get to hear the speakers and make the comparisons. Craig would likely compare both and not like the Polks as much...but then what does that prove...not much. I've compared the Axiom's with someone that owns the Ascends and we both concluded that they are both good speakers with some difference in sounds...our preference for which one tended to depend on what we were listening to. There should be a thread in hear about it from a while back if you are interested.
Zarak - I appreciate the reply... I could grab a pair of Polks and run some listening tests... When we do tests, they are always done blind, and results posted accordingly. For anyone interested, I bumped the quotes about the Axioms from Joey dating back to the original listening tests on the M-22's when they were the "best he had ever heard" ... You will find that he preferred them to the Rocket's because of the Rocket's laid back sound... then later posted how the Polks are CLOSE to the Rockets, and that they use the same Vifa Tweeter... and now the Sound of this speaker is SO clearly SUPERIOR to the Axioms...
Yet no blind tests were ever conducted....
The irony here is I actually like the Rocket sound myself, and posted that opinion here here, with the provisions I could easily understand someone preferring the Axioms... there were slight differences noted, again under that hard to get away from blind testing.
It is interesting that being called out infuriates Joey... I was asked to prove certain things about the first subwoofer shootout... and did so gladly... one of those things was proving I had the speakers here, another was posting the blind testing methodology before hand, along with the results for each subwoofer before revealing them... And I was not posting either subwoofer as being for sale until long after the review was done...
Joey, you think this was calling you out. Ok... You are entitled to that opinion. However, I DID offer to pay for a flight, provide the space and system, and did so in the spirit of making this into something fun.
The guys who frequent this place are pretty funny... and I take them as just being that...
craig can easily buy and return the polks. im sure there are many dealers that have those in his area. craig buys speakers like nothing - he buys subs just to review them! a pair of lsi7 wont even scratch his budget.
i have nothing to prove.... so i dont exactly know what flying to his place would prove. im surprised some people actually have this much free time to do cross state listening tests.
i hate dragging the axiom people through this... i will try to make this my last reply.
craig,
why dont you pm me and discuss your qualms with me instead of posting on the forum. i do not want to drag this thread on. pm me and lets deal with it that way.
Joey, No, but Thanks for the offer.
THE END............i hope
I am done. This was an invitation to listen... not to debate. The invitation to the blind test was declined. We can move along to bigger things, like how I can quietly get a pair of 80's here for a review... Alan ... got any ideas ?
Do you have a link for that sub shoot out?
I would like to see ya do a test on the M80's.Why don't you give the wife a day out shopping on the same day the 80's will be delivered.Don't know how long you could keep them without the wife knowing there in the house though.
Greetings,
Yikes...this has been some thread.
This board has also turned into a bit of a running soap opera as well.
Last week, there was some guy cursing and picking fights, this week Craig is duking it out verbally with some malcontent, and a while back someone else has to sell his stuff because his wife needed an operation...it's like "Days of Our Lives"...
And to think I found this forum because I was interested in buying speakers...
b.
Mark - I will be Jack can get you a Link right into the summary... I would hate to see someone wade through the entire thing
Mark I think
this is the summary Craig is talking about.
Jack.... Thanks, that was it. And You really saved anyone interested a lot of time trying one of my links...
Thanks, very interesting. I just orderd my first sub.
I take it that this review process somehow ruffled some feathers?
A few, yes... though most people were pretty cool during the process... each listening session was done blind... sorta hard to be real biased... when you don't know which you are listening to... so tell... what sub did you order ?
The worst thing about that sub thread was its length.
Sometimes, if you did not keep up on a hourly basis, you felt permanently behind. It was moving VERY fast at times.
But it was all fun reading.
I went with the Outlaw LFM based on reviews, being on sale, size and assumed WAF. We don't listen all that loud and things with big bass are likely to get me into trouble. Even without a sub the 10 year old boy and I get into trouble from time to time. It was reviewed favorably compared with the PSB1+. Now I'm sure more would be better from the 18 year old boy's viewpoint. The thump from his civic lets me know he's arriving long before he reaches our 350' driveway.
.
Well... It is very similar to the Hsu VTF-STF-3 ... and is an excellent value. It was not compared to a PB1+, It WAS compared against a PB2-ISD... which found what you would expect... both were darn good... with the PB2 going deeper and louder... having two drivers of roughly the same capacity and twice the internal volume will do that.
Another way of looking at it, Take the Outlaw, make it into twin drivers in twice the cabinet volume and amp... and you will have an Outlaw LFM-2... if that makes sense...
Great choice though... for $579, you got a screaming deal.
Craigsub,
Let me check into the M80ti's and I'll get back to you. I'm sure I can arrange it. It may be a few days because I'm busy cranking out our Axiom AudioFile newsletter at the moment and until that's written. . .well, you understand.
Regards,
Alan - Sounds great... I look forward to it. Thank you !
Me too? And throw in some FMBs, please.
AH! Another wonderful visual image. Wall mounted M80s.
You have a perverse mind, Mark. I love it!
No, I actually need the FMBs for my QS8s.
I'm not perverse, just cheap.
I do look forward to your review of the M80's also.
Any idea which speakers you are planning to compare the M80s to, craigsub?
From the looks of things... Ascend 340 ... $698 with stands, Rocket 550's or 1000's... or maybe both... the 550's are $999, the 1000's are $2800... and the Onix Ref 3's at $4500 Retail, though a lot less for all the Rockets in a system...
And possibly some Swan's... they look to have some new designs coming out.
The Ref 3's are in here to provide a base... I have compared them to the Legacy Focus (Which I was all set to buy) at $6800 and the B&W 801 Nautilus, and I ended up preferring the Ref 3's to either...
With 5 or 6 speakers in the mix, this will be no simple test... we will use the same Mcintosh amp ... and mono testing, all blind, of course.
As this goes on, we may add a subwoofer into the system, which is a snap with the Mcintosh.
mmmmmmmmmm Mcintosh
Wish my dad would part with his old Mac now so I don't have to wish for his passing and that whole inheritance thing.
j/k
Have you tried listening to one of these against the Legacy Focus or the B&W801?
http://www.usheraudio.com/speaker-ac20.html
ahhhh-the legacy focus.i was ready to buy them also for 5800 usd..awesome sounding speakers and beautifull pieces of furniture as well....btw craig,have you ever heard the whispers?i bet there amazing,for 15000 they better be....ron
That will be an interesting read.Lookind foward to your thoughts.
The Focus were quite good... just a bit uneven in the low mids/upper bass.. The Wispers look great... but, as you mentioned, for $15 large... they should be. Those Ushers are beautiful, but I have yet to hear them.
Wow Craig...again...A LOT of Fun!!
With your measuring equipment now, can you measure decay? Or does that take even more expensive equipment?
Sure... We can do Carbon dating, all kinds of decay... Actually, I will have to play with the ETF stuff more. It will do THD, but so will TrueRTA...
What will be really fun to see is what the ETF corrected response looks like Vs. the Raw TrueRTA curves...
And while this test will be fun, it will take a while... As Alan said, he needs to get other things caught up, and the Swan's stuff may be a while.
And we have 3 more months of golf weather...
Great. Do you have a preference in the interfaces between the software packages?
Yeah....we are in prime beach volleyball weather now...eventhough we play year round.
The ETF is far superior, though harder to learn.
Thanks Craig...
Been thinking about picking up some measuring equipment and an EQ unit and taking your advice on EQing my bass.
My understanding is EQing the sub is much more of a revelation than EQing the speakers. Do you concur?
Curtis, Absolutely... the bass will have the largest fluctuations... you may want to wait a bit though, there are a couple of true stand alone units that will be nuch easier to deal with than buying a BFD, a software package... etc...
The first hardware units are being worked on now... I would guess around October 1...
OK...I can wait.
Can you cough up any more info?