I was reading a post on Avsforum and some guy said that you can make bright speakers warmer by putting Felt pads around the tweeter. When I got home from work; I actually tried it and it actually works. It only took about 10min and its very inexpensive to do. I bought Felt pads at Home depot (7/8" in diameter) with adhesive side to it. I actually sliced off the adhesive side to make it thinner. I place the felt on top of the original felt of the tweeter and done.
The sound is muffled but in a good way. The detail is still there but less bright. I actually love the way it sounds. It sounds close to like the Rockets 750 sigs.
Note: The sound is very subjective; If you do this mod and don't like it; you can always remove it.
Peace.
Any chance of posting a picture? I am not sure where you mean.
Interesting topic....and yes your right, this is a very subjective. I don't hang at AVS as much as I used to, but before I got my Axiom's I heard everything from they are harsh, mechanical, bright.... I just don't hear that personally. I find my M60's to be very accurate and detailed with my Denon 2805 combination (which I also was told was a bright mechanical receiver) So in theory if that was true it should sound really bright and really harsh. NOT
Hmm, that's similar to what M&K does with their S-150 THX speakers. I've used everything from M&K, Def Tech, Martin Logan, Energy, Sonus Faber, Boston's, Vienna Acoustics, and even those little Radio Shack speakers that had the Lineaum tweeter, and I'll tell you it is not the speaker that is bright, it's what you have pushing the speaker that makes it bright. You can use any speaker with a Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, HK, etc. receiver and have it sound bright and harsh. Get yourself a good seperate amp if you really want to remedy your speakers of that.
I don't think the Axioms sound bright at all. When I think of bright I think of Klipsch. I run my M80's on an Outlaw 755.
are you thinking,best buy klipsches,or all klipsches in general?some of their upper end series speakers do an incredible job at reproducing live sound,some of the most true to life ive heard on some jazz discs
Like I mentioned to the last guy who did a "M60's are too bright" post, double check the sound quality of the cds You are playing.................He said THAT turned out to be most of His problem.
Best Buy Klipsch. I should have been more specific.
I actually replaced all my burned cds. They sounded like garbage. I have all original ones now. I'm also running some SACD. Like I said this is a very subjective thing; what ever is bright to me might be warm to you guys. Besides this is a cheap fix and I can always take it off but I dont think I will. Just wanted to share an info.
Hell, I'll try it. I don't have anything to loose. Can you post, or send me a picture?
Thanks for doing that man!
I may give it a shot for a goof.
Grexx-
Can you explain a bit about why you think your burned CDs sound like garbage? I always thought that there was no degradation in sound because all you're doing is copying 0's and 1's.
Thanks-
Kevin
i have experienced what grexx is talking about. i think a lot of it has to do with your burn speeds.
when burned too fast, like over 20, the cd will sound kind of crackly the cymbals will sound very synthetic. i have found when i slow my burn speed to 12 or below, the cd's end up sounding MUCH better.
bigjohn
Also depends on whether you go through any compression algorithms (like MP3) in the interim.
Thats the problem of file sharing. You never know how it was grabbed and converted. Most of my cds were mp3s and converted to audio format. Like what bigjohn says it also depends on how fast you burn. I also find static sounds specially when you listen to it on detailed speakers.
This is why I buy Original Cds and threw out my burnt cds.
Good question Kevin, are we talking about an exact copy of a cd, or are we talking mp3, wmv, etc.... a lot depends on the conversion and what kbps your using...an exact copy should be identical using cdcreator,nero, or other burning software...
That makes more sense to me, then. I completely agree about MP3's or WMV files. I just assumed that G was referring to a straight up copy of an original CD. I always record mine on the slowest speed just to make sure there are no errors, etc, anyway, which is probably why I've not had an sound quality issues with them.
-Kev
Well i tried this Tweak on my Mi 22's an i like the Sound listening to Mighty Sam McClain sounds ssooooo good but like he said it is an easy Tweak an well jus takes a few mins to do it was Fun but like he said i think i will leave them in there
Okay, now will someone please post a picture or two so the rest of us can get a sense of what this tweak is all about?
I'm not sure how Grexx did it with felt, but I believe
this is the same concept.
I think this product would accomplish the same thing (dampening the tweeter a bit) although they claim it's used to make the speakers image better.
Hmmm...so these things (or the felt) is going on the OUTSIDE of the tweeter?
Yup. The M&Ks
here just use a couple bars around the outside.
It actually requires of unscrewing the four screws of the tweeter and removing the covers. I emailed the instructions and pics to TweedleyD. I'm not certain how to post pics here so if one of you guys give me your email address; I can email it and you guys can post it here.
Tweedley if you still have the pics; if you can post the pics.
Note: Do this at your own risk.
did you put the felt ON the tweeter???
Yup on the tweeter (On top of the Original Foam).
I don't know how to get the Pics on here i have them if anyone wants to see Pics then PM me an gimme ur email i will get the Pics an Instructions that Greg sent me to you but prob will b later tonight ( mon evening )
I'm more of the belief that if there were an issue with the Axims being too "bright" (detailed), then Axiom would have taken steps to change the "issue". Saying that, I am still interested in hearing how this makes a M60 sound.
Here are the long awaited pics!
Step 1:
Step 2:
Step 3:
Step 4:
Step 5:
Step 6:
It's more involved than I thought, though still pretty simple. I'm guessing this modification chops off a few thousand kHz from the upper range of the frequency response, which would explain the extra warmth perceived after the felt is in place.
It would really be interesting for someone from Axiom (Alan?) to add a comment in this thread. Is this a sensible mod? What are you giving up if you do this? etc.?
looks to me that you are lowering or muting the tweeter's output. Someone should do an FR sweep with and without the mode.
I'd also like to hear from Axiom, it looks to me like you're throwing years of engineering out the window.
That looks pretty intrusive.
If I thought my M60s needed a mod. I would go with the example Sonicfox showed. It looks more simple and less intrusive.
I like the way my Axioms sound in their stock form,but IF I thought the tweeter needed to be tamed down I would go the resistor route.At least this way there is no warranty issues.
Resistor route??. Exlpain how??
If you call Axiom and ask for Joe he will explain the resistors to ya.There is no charge for them and there will be no warranty issues.
Many people have, but I don't know how many people who have are around any more. Try doing a search for resistor and M80.
I just sat in between my axiom's (about 6 feet back, shush my room is small) and the sound just wrapped around me, I love it!
Leave 'em stock IMO
- D
Thanks...
I like the sound of my M60s before but love it now that I have this Mod. I guess my ears are very sensitive to detailed speakers. Before the Mod I couldn't listen to it for 1/2 hr due to fatigue; Last weekend my wife went to the Gym for a couple of hrs and I manage to listen to it for that long. I didn't even know that she was gone that long. I think thats positive thing; my ears can actually enjoy the good music.
I haven't tried it but Joe sent them with my order (resistors). Basically, you install the resistor between the tweeter and something else (apparantly you can't put it on wrong) I can't remember what else. The crossover maybe? Anyway, he told me that it will affect the soundstage some (in a negative way) and it will give you less detail in the high end. I love the way my M22's sound and never felt the need to install the resistors. I'm interested to know the differences in effect between the felt pad and the resistor. If the felt pad is a smaller mod I would be willing to try it. Joe really scared me with his "screw up your soundstage" bit.
I think TweedleyD tried it with his M22 (The Felt). He didn't really go in depth detail on his impressions but which I understands he likes.
i thought it was going to be installed like the m&k 150s.it seems to me that if youre going to go through all this and leave it that way,then you never really liked the sound of your speakers to begin with
One thing I was wondering with the felt over the tweeter is there going to be an issue of heat build up.
That was one of my concerns before the Mod but after two hrs of continuous listening and two movies later that theory was out of the window. We will see in the near future...lol
that's right i tried it on my 22's an i like it , don't get me wrong i liked it before but jus thought that it was easier on my Ears for a longer listening session will invite a Couple budds over who have higher end stuff to see what they think so far so good
Just don't give their opinion on your equipment more wight than yours simply because they spent more on their equipment!
Grexx,
I don't wish to deter your experiments but it will certainly screw up the dispersion traits of the tweeter, which are exemplary. I think you will lose much of the clarity and transparency that distinguish the M60s/M22s from competitor's speakers. Besides, using the felt is akin to making the speaker into a tone control--to compensate for source material that is badly recorded. What if you play a CD that has dullish mids or highs? Are you going to remove the felt?
Why not try using a treble control for a few dB reduction if a CD or DVD is strident? That's what those controls are for. . . and I agree that tone controls are not always effective but at least you are not permanently altering the speaker's frequency balance and dispersion traits.
Axiom goes to great lengths to make the M60s as "linear" as possible--as smooth and flat across the musical spectrum--so that really good recordings will have as natural, transparent and uncolored reproduction as possible. We do many blind listening tests with listeners of different ages and normal hearing acuity, and the balance of the M60s is as close to ideal as we can make it.
And there might be a heat-dissipation issue at high volume. The dome actually radiates much of the heat generated in the voice coil. That's why titanium/aluminum dome tweeters are so more linear at very high SPLs than the old plastic, silk, or cloth dome tweeters.
Regards,
Thank's for posting that information, and clearing up this "frankenspeaker"
thread.
Hey, no need to poke fun.
By the way thanks Alan for the explaination. I like the way how my M60s sound now and no way I'm going back. This is a risk I have to take. If few days or months down the road; tweeter gives out on me than so be it. I will be the Guinea Pig. If this Mod fails then I'm gonna have to buy new tweeters from Axiom; and sell my M60s locally. An excuse to upgrade...lol
This is what makes this hobby interesting.
Thanks again Alan.
I'm not really familiar with what your trying to achieve, but I wonder if warranty void issues would apply in this situaton? Not that anything is going to happen....
I'm not trying to achieve anything. I just needed a warmer speaker than the stock M60s. As right now my ears are thanking me. Dang these sensitive ears. Why not different electronic you ask...I tried most of them without blowing my budget.
Why not talk to Axiom about getting yourself a set of the resistors they offer.Its free.
Just got off the line with Brent(Nice Fellow)at Axiom and inquire about the Resistor. He says it involves some precision installation...saudering; proper alignment. He doesn't really recomend it. Highs will be sacrificed in a negative way. I don't think I'll be doing that way. He said if the felt way is working fine then by all means keep it in. I ask him how much each tweeter costs and its around $58.00. Not bad.
Hey Grexx, since it hasn't been mentioned so far and has been talked about some I thought I'd just suggest you consider your room acoustics (re: your speakers brightness...) Alan has written a bit about this in the newsletter and I think it may be worth considering. Its possible a little effort there may eliminate a need for such a modification. Just a thought.
Interesting read though.
Just curious, what do you have for a receiver or separates?
Also, how loud do you crank the M60's?
The volume Level is
Yamaha RXV1400: -24dB
HK 235: -28dB
Which the HK 235 is warmer than the Yamaha.
Hmmm, How big is the room? The HK can deliver 65 watts a channel, right? Do you have a lot of reflective surfaces like windows and hardwood flooring? I'm just trying to understand your environment. Thanks
Tom
Room size is 14x17. Ceiling is 8.5ft. I have a couple of windows on the side. No hardwood floors just carpets. Drywalling, And yes its 65w/c (2Channel).
Brent ask me all the details when I was on the phone with him which I describe; and he said the room should be fine.
I would assume the M60 sound similar to M22ti, they're very accurate and great sounding speakers, adding the pads probably would ruin the overall SQ, imaging, and sound staging to a degree, maybe my ears are not as sensitive as yours but if I were you, I would of bought a more laid back speakers, such as something from KEF, and many other warm sounding bookshelves or towers out there.
Another suggestion, instead of adding pads, ever thought about putting a thin layer of mesh or whatever on the speaker grills to dull out the sound? perhaps you could get a decent EQ to smooth things out too!
I received a pair of those resistors from Axiom. I really didn't find it that difficult to install. Actually, I found it rather simple. Maybe I installed it wrong
It did mellow out the highs though. But I think thats always the trade-off. You lose detail, but gain the ability to turn the volume up higher before if feels too loud. I currently have them off. But didn't mind too terrible much with them on. The only way to really test would've been to get resistors for all of my speakers, and I only had the pair.
Grexx,
I'm curious about this as well. Normally, males (humans) are equipped with the same set of hearing mechanism; that is, each of us does NOT hear differently, contrary to accepted wisdom. Of course we all have slight preferences, but the research (in which I participated as a member of the listening panel) has shown that when the brand, price, size and type of speaker is concealed from the listener in blind tests, we all agree on which speakers sound "best" and which ones are worst. The highest-rated speakers, those judged best, were always the most linear--the ones with the smoothest, flattest frequency response on and off-axis, especially through the midrange and treble.
If there has been premature hearing damage from industrial noise or, for example, full-time rock musicians touring and playing without hearing protection, then various conditions may develop, including "tinnitus," a serious condition whose symptoms often include constant ringing in the ears (I have a relative who has it).
In any case, have you experienced any other symptoms that might suggest an unusual sensitivity to midrange and high frequencies, or have you been in an occupation that might have in some way caused hearing damage?
Regards,
Alan,
Maybe Axiom should of had myself and the few people here in this forum that emailed me for the instructions for this mod; As they refer to be abit bright for their ears as well. am I the only one? I don't think so.
And no my young ears are completely fine.
Well I consider myself young also, 36, anyway I have been around a lot of speakers in my life: Realistic Optimus Machs, Bose (the good years), Infinity, Pioneer (80's good stuff), and B&W's 700 series (very similar to M60's), and Alpine car equipment, and Axioms's are not bright on the ears. Again, I don't mean any disrespect, but my guess is that your problem is your receiver settings or room atributes. just my 2 cents...
Room attributes. Most of us, myself included, don't understand, and underestimate, the effect the room has on the sound of the system. Side walls, where first reflections occur are particularly important.
None taken...
Wow you have alot more experience than I do.
Like I said its all about preference. My settings are fine. I had a group of people at my place last night and they also heard the difference. A couple of them liked the older sound and majority likes the new sound. Subjective..Subjective ...Subjective. My dad is undecided. He's the kind of guy who is hard to impress. He too has been in this hobby for a long time. Well everyone have their opinion.
Yes. I'm moving into a smaller room, but actually looking forward to it as my current theater space (living room) is highly reflective with lots of hardwood floors and 12' high ceilings (lots of walls). So I'm excited about having more control over the acoustics.
I think I'll post some sort of A/B after I move to give everyone my ears' perspective on how the rooms effect the sound.
I am forever going back and forth on this issue. Some days my M60's are detailed and true, other times they are shrill and bright. I put this down to CD quality (I am still a little dissapointed that so many CD's fall into the 'poorly mastered' category - I tried to listen to Bat Out of Hell tonight and it was unlistenable.), and my mood (Psycho-acoustics?). The M60's will certainly spend a lot of time in my setup, but I am sure, as my usage is 80% music, 20% Movies that I will eventually move them to my zone 2 family room system and replace with something a bit warmer.
One question, and I am NOT trying to be a smart alec here. Have you ever been within 5 feet of a real drummer striking a real cymbal with the "oomph" normally applied to it during a live performance or a recording session? If you have not, then I highly suggest that you find a way to do so. Go to a music store and ask someone there to do it for you, or sit down at a kit, and take a solid whack at one yourself. I have a feeling that you might have a new appreciation for those M60s. If you think the 60s are brighter than that, then I'm at a loss...
I'm not a musician, but being the technical guy in a crowd of musical types, I've had plenty of up close and personal experience. I think the 60s do beautiful cymbals, chimes, and breaking glass (THX). Wouldn't change a thing.
Merry Christmas,
Expat,
Does that Meatloaf CD have EK-90678 on the edge of the case?
I thought the same thing. It sounds "ok" at best. I tried it in a buddy's car. Not real great there, either. I almost traded it for a Beastie Boys CD...
Michael, it's supposed to be the 'remastered' version, but still sounds horrible. BTW I just spent a very pleasurable evening listening to Elvis Costello (The very best of), nice warm vocals, detailed piano etc., no perceived brightness - great speakers these M60's (Today!).
Hi Grexx,
I've had several posts in the past discussing the use of ohm resistors and why I felt they were required. Yes, Axioms can be bright.
They are easier to install then your mod, does'nt require sautering, simply remove tweeter lead connections and attach resistor between tweeter connect and lead wires.
I've enjoyed my M80's and M22's for the last 2 years with 1.8 ohm resistors installed.
BTW anyone possesing one too many Q8's, looking to spread holiday cheer by parting with it for a reasonable compensation?
Can someone who has carried out the resistor tweak post some details/pictures. I would like to give this a try.
Thanks.
Yes, pictures please. My problem is not with cymbals etc but often with lead guitar - occasionally during solos a note will be struck that just seems to resonate in my head.
Probably room acoustics and those little oval pads look tempting as a possible quick improvement.