Two new systems, $5,000 each (ballpark)

Hey guys;

I'm new to this forum, and I've been reading for days a lot of the old threads on speaker/receiver/amp opinions and experiences. Here's what I want, just not sure about the exact details.

System 1: (7.1 system)(Room: 20x40x11)
M80Ti (fronts)
QS8 (rears)
V150 (center)
SVS Sub (model not determined yet)

Question:
I'm looking at the Denon 3805 receiver, but am wondering what other receiver or seperates might be a better option (amp,pre,ect.)?

System 2: (5.1 system)(Room: 15x20x11)
M60Ti (front)
QS8 (surround)
VP150 (center)(overkill???)
Another SVS Sub (again, not determined yet)

Question:
Again, the Denon 3805 was the favored receiver for simplicity, but open for suggestions??

Both will be paired with the Denon 2910 (DVD,SACD), and other HD components to complete. What can I get for $5,000 each??? (that includes the Denon 2910)

wait, i think i am confused..?

are wanting two separate systems, for two different rooms? or, are you asking which of the two systems would be best for one room? and do mean the $5000 to buy both systems? or just one complete system?

first off, the 20x40 room is pretty big. i have a 26x28 room with M60's, and it sounds great. i reckon you could get by with the 60's, but if you are into really cranking it up and blowing out some windows, then get the M80's.

second, the VP150 would not be overkill in either room, so go ahead and get that regardless. and stick with the QS8's for both set-ups.. that is one awesome surround.

third, the denon 3805 is a plenty fine receiver to run either system in either room. it has plenty of power to push the axioms to deafening ranges. i dont see the need to run separates unless you just absolutely want to.

so, the M60's + VP150 + QS8's = $1785 new
and M80's + VP150 + QS8's = $2125 new

you figure $600-$800 for a good SVS sub, and another $900 for the 3805, and you should be well under $5000. now, if you are wanting to buy 2 complete systems, then you will have a hard time getting them both for under $5000.

bigjohn

My Denon 2805 with M60s, EP350, VP150, and 4 Qs8's in a overall room of about 800 sq ft has no problems.

Sounds like a good plan to me...though why not mix things up a bit. Put a SVS in one room...and a Hsu in another. Use the 3805 in the 7.1 room, and try some used separates in the 5.1 room?

Variety is the spice of life ya know.

Why get two of the same receiver? Thats no fun, for the 5.1 in the second system check out Rotel, delicious amounts of power in a scrumptious looking box. Also check out Arcam, though their new models do 7.1 now
(Rotel decodes 7.1 but I believe the lesser cost model only powers 5 channels, the nicest rotel powers all of them; arcam powers all the channels it decodes.)

I would have to agree with spiff about making the speakers different in each room. But I do see a definite advantage in having identical receivers in each system. The ease in learning its features and functions, programming the remote, etc... would be a definite plus.
They all sound the same anyway.

Stick with the M80's for the main room, but since the 60's are supposed to be very close to the 80's sound wise, why not try the 50's in the second room instead?

ATC. these guys are just trying to get you to get a variety of stuff so they can get you to test them in every combination and report back to us.

I hope you fall for it (says the guy who is going to receive his second HK receiver and day now)

ATCGuy,

I think System 1 is a great choice. Being an owner of the M80’s I can say that they are very detailed and can easily fill your room with wonderful sound. I would not describe them as ear bleeding or deafening at reference levels. My SPL meter tells me I’m at reference level but the sound doesn’t sound like it (make sense?). It’s like being in a sports car and driving 100 MPH and not realizing it because it feels like 55 MPH. What bothers me the most is hearing distortion at reference levels and I think a lot of people confuse distortion with loudness (ear bleeding or deafening levels) the M80’s in my system DO NOT show signs of distortion at my preferred listening levels or 80 db.
I have my M80’s coupled to an Outlaw 755 amplifier, it provides 300 watt at 4 ohms.

I hope this helps.

My only suggestion is consider the Axiom EP500 sub. It would match the appearance of your other speakers, and is very powerful.

Good point, tleigh. My M60s are remarkably distortion free. A couple weeks ago the toddler cranked the volume knob ALL the way up without me knowing it. Later, I hit play and it was LOUD, but super clean for the few seconds it took to lower the volume. I was impressed.

Thanks everyone;

Being new to the posting boards, I probably should have been more clear. The two systems will be in different homes, one's for me and the other for my brother (sorry about the rime!).

I had only mentioned the Denons because I get them at cost, so the 3805 seemed a good choice as far as price break and options. However, for my system (M80Ti's), I know Denon will be releasing that 4806 (or 4805) in the near future. Would you wait for that model, or stick with the 3805? Also, the Outlaw option sounds good, or maybe even the NAD T773??

Which one will have the warmest sound for these speakers?

I'm not familiar with the NAD. I will say that the Outlaw amp is transparent and will not induce a warm sound.

David,

I'm not sure how an air traffic controller gets Denon gear at cost (but several folks here will undoubtedly ask you directly

), but that puts a little different spin on the solutions. The 3805, at cost, is a no brainer. Spend more on separates if you feel the need (unless you get THEM at cost as well), but the 3805 gets uniformly high marks, drives either system you mention very well and has plenty left.

The 4806 looks like is a pretty impressive unit. At cost, it gets even more impressive. My reponse to the THX cert is pretty muvch - 'that's nice". Other than that, from what I have been able to determine, the 4806 has a bit more power, more connections, HDMI and DVI connections for video and probably a bunch of other features taht will need to be compared to the 3805 . Assuming available space is not an issue, most of the decsion between the 3805 and 4806 looks like it will boil down to 1) do you need more connections, 2) do you need/will you use the DVI and HDMI video swithcing, 3) what are the other additional features and do you need them and 4) price.

With the MSRP of the 3805 at $1200 and the 4806 at $3500, some quick math tells me that, even at cost, the 4806 is 3X the price. Is it worth that to you?

I would vote for the 4805 just for the HDMI and DVI switching. Makes hooking up all the HD gear a little easier. Other than that your systems sound and will sound great.

P.S. You can send me one 4805 pleassssssee.

The discounts aren't too bad, the 3805 would run me about $760. Cheaper than most, and maybe the best deal overall. Maybe I'm over thinking this one, but I'd want to make sure I've got a little room to grow in the future. The connection formats are changing faster than the stockmarket!, and thats got me thinking a little. Most of my CURRENT stuff is component video, but as I upgrade, I'd a little flexability.

I currently plan to hook up to the receiver:
1) DVD/SACD (component video, digital coax)
2) VCR (s-video, rca audio)
3) HD Cable (component video, fiber audio)
4) HD Antenna feed (component video, fiber audio)
5) Xbox for kids (just fiber audio, component video going direct to TV)

From receiver, all video going to HD TV (component video), and without upconversion in receiver, VCR running direct to TV via s-video.

That's the plan, so will the 3805 fit that bill, and if I run 7.1, will the amps be there? or are some of these other options a better fit?

David:
I think you should try the Denon 3910 Disc Player.

You might not like it, but I'll then take it off your hands for $900 so you can try something else!

The 3805 plan works as you laid it out. Also, if you do need/want to upgrade later on to catch up with new stuff, you could buy a 3805, 3808 and 3811, get yourself 6-9 years out for what it would cost to do the 4806 today.

I agree with the above post. Go "cheap" for now. Manufacturers will inevitably make your equipment obsolete no matter how much you spend, or how much you try to stay current.

Two last questions, I know how there's just not enough time in a day.

First, someone had mentioned upgrading to the Axiom 500 sub. Are the bigger 500 and 600 Axiom subs of better value and quality now, or am I still better off with a SVS type sub??

Second, I posted this over in Audio, but know one took the bait. My brother wants to know how the Axiom M60Ti or M80Ti compare to the KEF Q's or Polk LSi-15?? Those WERE the two bands that he was looking at, but I convinved him to take a look at your speakers. He's heard the other two, but what can I tell him about the Axioms??

Thanks Everyone for all the advice.

in reply to:
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He's heard the other two, but what can I tell him about the Axioms??
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Order yours first, set them up and give him an audition. Then your brother will know if they are right for him.

I'm new and researching a home theater also. I have been looking at Outlaw equipment. Sold only over the internet. I called them and they were very helpful. I'm looking at a preamp/processor and a seperate amp. They explained that this provides much better sound but it is quite a bit more expensive (about $2200) than the Denon. I figure I only upgrade/change this every 7-10 years and what's another thousand bucks? Good luck!

The question I have then, how much better sound from a pre/amp system then the Denon can I get? Companies I would be looking at are NAD, Outlaw, Harmon Kardon, any others? I don't mind spending a bit more on components because I'm saving money on the speakers.

So, mono block amps, 7.1 amps, or a combination??

Anybody got ideas??

You should try to do some in store listening test between receivers and separates and see if you hear a difference. Many people claim there will be little or no difference in sound quality.
Since you can get the very nice Denon 3805 at cost, you would probably be unwise to pay retail for separates. If you find the Denon lacking in power, you could always add an outboard amp - using the Denon as a processor and possibly the amp section to drive your surrounds.

Good idea, I'll have to compile a list of stores that carry all these units. I already see the problem with only certain brands here than there, and differernt in-store setups affecting my overall listening experience. We'll give it a try.

I also get some price breaks on NAD, Pioneer, Onkyo, Harmon Kardon, and a few others. Nothing like half price, but a substantial amount off retail never hurts. That info may have been helpfull at the start of the post, but I didn't want to influence everyone's comments simply on price. It's the sound that matters, and price, high or low, is just part of the game.

Before I go hunting for something possibly better than the Denon 3805, what do you think of the NAD T973/T163 combo?? Would that be a killer add to these Axioms at just over double the price for the Denon??

Here is an option. You may want to wait untill ALL the info is out on it but I have been very impressed with the product line. Take a look at the Emotiva Ultra Light that av123.com is coming out with. If you do want to go with seperates this is a very nice inexpensive option (about $1200.00 for both if you preorder).

Here is a link. You will have to scroll down a little.

http://www.shows.soundstagelive.com/shows/ces2005/showstoppers3.shtml

Side not: Please do not jump on me for mentioning av123.

David, the comments of Outlaw or other amp manufacturers about "much better sound" are pure marketing nonsense. If you like the features and price of the 3805, get it because no sound can be better than the transparency that it offers.

Hi JohnK, As you know I'm very partial to my amplifier

. But in all seriousness I would like to better understand your viewpoint on this. This is just hobby to me and it's not brain surgery so what ever you say might help me better understand the amp versus receiver debate that always seems to happen here. You input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

Tom

If it were me, I'd look at the NAD amps. They are very highly regarded.

Tom, it isn't simply "my viewpoint". I'm only pointing out what audio engineering science teaches us: if an amplifier has audibly flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion it reproduces sound transparently within its power limits, neither subtracting anything nor adding any sound of its own. This doesn't depend on brand or price and claims to the contrary haven't stood up under controlled blind listening tests.

I only mention the NAD setup because I respect their products, much like Outlaw and others. I'm just trying to make sure I've explored all avenues for a great system before I blow $5,000 or $6,000.

I appreciate all the ideas so far, because I now have some options. Anybody in the Minneapolis area doing demos???

I guess I never looked at it that way and I agree with the transparent characteristics that you've explained. I'm definitely not an audio engineer and the only understanding I have is by what I've read on sites like this over the years. I simply don't understand the power piece of the equation. For example: I have a room that is 28*37 and 18 feet high that opens into other parts of the house. Granted the M80's are very efficient and should not require an enormous amount of power to drive them at normal listing levels. My question is this. Why does my receiver begin to sound harsh at say 80 db and my amp sounds (to me) less harsh at 80 db? Am I hearing what I want to hear or am I exploiting the limits of the receiver? Keep in mind I do not want a debate on receivers or amplifiers I’m just trying to help myself understand the differences and hopefully help others that may be reading this.

Again, thank you for your time and patience.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hi-jack this thread. I’m just trying to better understand all of the "hype".

I agree, you are doing the right thing by researching all of the pieces before pulling the trigger. You literally have hundreds of options to choose from.

I think the key words are,if used within their power limits.If say you are running your speaker at low to moderate levels then there will be no difference in the sound,at least there shouldn't be.Where it is good to have a seperate amp is when you start to push your AV reciever past what it abilities are.

Most recievers do not have the robust power supply that a typical seperate amp does.If a person is using say a pair of M80s at very high levels is where you would notice the differences.

Just for my edification, what kind of sound am I hoping to achieve? I know that may sound simplistic, but you here all the acroymns floating around, and maybe it's just what each listner prefers to hear on their own system.

Axioms, by their own postings, say their speakers are neutral and linear. Should I buy a amp or A/V receiver that's neutral too? And if you buy "bright" or "cool" speakers, is a "warm" amp the solution to bring you back to neutral?(or vise versa)

I know this is all subjective to each and everyones tastes, but I assume when professionals review components, they must have something in mind. What determines a good quality speaker or component as far as tone?

In reply to:
I know this is all subjective to each and everyones tastes, but I assume when professionals review components, they must have something in mind.

That in itself is the trick. When everyone reviews a product they can't help but have an idea of what something will sound like as they will inevitably compare X vs.Y. So you have to decide what sounds good to you through demos and go with what YOU like. Possibly based on what others have said, but remember what they hear/like will be different than what you hear/like.

In reply to:
Should I buy a amp or A/V receiver that's neutral too? And if you buy "bright" or "cool" speakers, is a "warm" amp the solution to bring you back to neutral?(or vise versa)

As JohnK noted amps and receivers should not add(warm nor bright) anything to the sound, however some people feel they do. Again that is for you to decide. I have tried some blind listening tests with my friends HK and my denon and a Yamaha through my M22's. all set up as equal direct modes etc. and none of us could tell a difference in sound.

The best you could hope for is to achieve a sound as close to having the artists in the room with you live, sounding just as they recorded the songs. Isn't this what most of us are hoping to achieve with as few dollars spent as possible? IMHO

If all these amps and receivers actually reproduced sound differently, wouldn't there be wildly disparate frequency response graphs to compare - just like the graphs for speakers? From the few amp charts I've seen they're all flat as a board.