Howdy all,

I'm new to the Axiom forums and I just wanted to say "Hi!"

Thanks to all the helpful threads here on the forum, I'm considering ordering the Epic 80 package (minus the sub) this Sunday. I currently have an HSU VTF-3 (but not the newer Mark II) to handle sub duties. I'll be driving them with a NAD T773 receiver ( 7 x 110W Minimum Continuous Power into 4 / 8 ohms, all channels driven simultaneously), and they'll be used in a medium-sized family room. I just wanted to run a few thoughts/questions by the helpful Axiom Addicts here on the forums.
I just got done auditioning some B&W 703's, which were quite nice. However, I ended up deciding to go the Axiom route instead. It was something about the whole Axiom home theater set costing $1,000 less than just the 703 main speakers that did the trick for me. That extra 2% in performance really costs you - that and the exotic pure walnut finish which greatly improves the sound quality.

Anyway, I really liked the M80's that I was able to audition at a relative's house for several hours one afternoon. They had a beautiful transparent and dynamic sound from top-to-bottom. The only knock I had on them was that sometimes it would sound a bit bright (bright may not be the right word¡Kmaybe forward or aggressive). Granted, this was more apparent with my stellar collection of 80's rock CD's - there's nothing like the over-processed sounds of Def Leppard - but it was also noticeable even on more recent, well-recorded CD's. Norah Jones' vocals on "Come Away with Me" had a bit of harshness or shine to it, as did Diana Krall's vocals on her "The Girl in the Other Room" album. Vocals in general, especially female, just seemed to have a little extra bite to them.
I didn't fiddle with his setup at all, so the brightness could be attributed to speaker placement or just the room itself (although it was a carpeted floor with a decent amount of room furnishings). What have some of you guys done to tame the forward-sounding treble of your M80's? Also, his pair was about 2 years old. I'm wondering if it's possible that Axiom updated or made changes to the M80 since then (maybe changes to the tweeter or crossover)? Would getting the M60's instead reduce the brightness a bit because it only has the one tweeter?

Also, how's the EP350 subwoofer that normally comes in the Epic 80 package? I ask because I wasn't really blown away by the 2-year-old EP350 that my uncle had with his M80's....especially compared to my current VTF-3. I was hoping that maybe they made changes or upgrades to the model over the past couple years because I know my wife will eventually want a sub that matches the finish of the new speakers - so if Axiom has improved the 350, I may take a chance on ordering one with the rest of my speakers.

Any opinions or insight would be really helpful.

Thanks for putting up with the silly questions from the newbie.

Sully

I have a setup close the the Epic 80, minus the '80s. So I can't speak to the mains. As has been well-documented here, the EP350 sub can be a real bear to position correctly. But when you do get it right, it is a fine all-around sub. A little better than your Hsu on the music side, not quite as ballsy on the HT side. The QS8's are flat-out superb surround speakers. They just fill your room with sounds that appear out of nowhere. I had my own problems getting the VP150 positioned correctly, but it produces crystal-clear dialog without the midrange coloring many other centers can produce. A note- check out my EP350 vs. VTF3 Showdown post in the HT forum. I actually thought it was a MKII until someone here asked a few questions about it. I think you would be well-served to keep your own sub and try it out with the new speakers before worrying about upgrades. The EP350 in my opinion would be more of a side-grade. They are pretty close in performance. Although you would miss out on the 5% complete-system HT discount. Another thought: If you had the M80's you might listen to music with the sub turned off. Or at least with the receiver set for "large" fronts so low-freq goes both to the sub and the M80's. Anyway, you would really have to move up to the next class of sub to make it worth your while (and money) in my opinion. No, forget it. Get the EP500 so we can hear more about them. They are still new and we're always wanting to hear more feedback on them.

I have a similar setup of the full Epic 80 + SVS sub.

I have not been listening to the setup for long, but I found the 80's to be a little bit bright. I am usually sensitive to bright speakers and get uncomfortable and fatigued when listening to bright speakers. I did lots of reading at this forum and discovered that 'some' people found the speakers to be bright.

What I did was that I ordered my speakers with the additional resistors for the tweeters just in case I needed them. A couple of days later, and after listening for long periods, I discovered that I do need the resistors. I installed them (very simple) and since then I have no complaints. I am still experimenting with the ideal placement (a bit busy with the year end activities), but I am getting there.

I am now very satisfied and comfortable with the sound that I get from the 80's.

Although you would miss out on the 5% complete-system HT discount.

Not exactly true (though kinda, sorta true - see below). The discount comes in when you buy five pieces of gear - any gear. So a pair of M80s, a pair of QS8s, and a VP-150 would get you the discount.

The only way you lose any discount going his described route would be if he decided to get a sub at a later date - he wouldn't get 5% off the sub.

As to the main question, I can't comment on the M80s - I have the M60s. I think that's what most people in this forum have as well. But I understand that the M60s and M80s sound almost identical except that the M80s have a more substantial low-end extension. I think the M60s are a little on the forward/crisp side. They can be tamed with proper placement, though. On the other hand, I only ever really heard it with questionably recorded/produced material - then there's a little sibilance. I didn't and don't ever hear it with well recorded female vocals or well produced tracks generally...

I'm kinda a newbie to this type of home theatre set up as well. Our first and only ht was an all in one by sony and while we thought the speakers and sub were great, it's nothing compared to the epic 80 system. My wife was POed to say the least when she caught wind of the $ spent but has now come to appreciate what we have. I'd be hard pressed to get her to return it now.

I have noticed that on some cds, like The Very Best of Talk Talk, some highs make you cringe. But this has changed somewhat after using Denon's auto setup feature. Some of you may harp on me for using it but right now it has served me well. I just have not spent enough time learning how to use the manual eq. Now, the music comes across clean at moderate to high levels. I love these speakers.

As for the sub, the 350 is great, IMO, for music but it lacked the ability to go way down for HT. So I purchased the ep500. I can't say enough about this sub. My windows, pictures, and anything else that's not stable, rattles while we watch movies. Way cool. Kids love it as they get to experience movies the way they are meant.

Whatever route you chose, I think with a little placement and calibration tweaking you will not be disappointed.

And did I mention the customer service. They are top notch in that area. When having an issue with a ground loop, Brent gave me a call on his day off since we did not get it resolved during the week. Way to go Axiom!

Good luck in your decision!

As stated while the EP350 is a nice sub, it's no upgrade over a VTF-3.

My suggestion is get the Axiom speakers, but not the EP350 sub. The VTF-3 is very capable, but if you want an upgraded sub try the Axiom EP500. Price-wise the EP500 competes with the SVS PC-Ultra, or Hsu TN-1220HO. (Aside: That would be an facinating comparision!!)

You could probably get by with M60s and use the money toward an upgraded sub. However the VTF-3 is no slouch (I have one) so Epic 80 minus the EP350 and keeping the VTF-3 is another option.

I don't have any problem with brightness on my M60s. They are accurate and reveal the recorded sound as is. There is a user-installable resistor option to dampen the highs a little -- call Axiom about that.

Thanks for all the input so far. I think we've decided to go with a new sub in black to match the black finish we'll order the speakers in. My original VTF-3 is in rosewood, which doesn't match anything else in the room.
If they haven't improved the EP350 over the past couple years, I don't think I'd go with that one. I've narrowed it down to the newer HSU VTF-3 MkII, which has a digital amp and higher power power output compared than my current HSU. I'm wondering if this will be noticably better than my current VTF-3?
The other option I hadn't really considered until now was to drop down to the M60's instead of the 80's, and go with the Axiom EP500.
The price for the two packages is almost identical. I just have to sort out which would be beter - the M80's with the HSU VTF-3 MkII OR the M60's with the Axiom EP500. Any thoughts or ideas? Maybe I should make this question a separate thread?
Also, could sombody give me a bit more info about these resistors for the tweeters to help tame the treble a bit.

Thank you for all the help so far.

Sully

Just a quick note:
I'm looking for room size and not seeing it. Unless your talking a REALLY big room, my vote would be for the 60s with a 500!

The room size is medium I guess - it's 16 (front to back) x14 (left to right). It's kinda hard to explain, but the left side of the room opens up into the dining area. There's literally no left wall for the family room. It's like a rectangle cut-in-half - on the right half of the rectangle is a carpeted family room, then the carpet stops and the tile starts to add and additional 9 1/2 feet (left to right) of dining room until you hit the dining room wall - which has openings for the kitchen and the living room. I hope that makes sense.
The 3 things that had me thinking that the 80's might be the way to go:
1)One of the problems I've had, is that sound kind of escapes out of the family room to the left. Since there's no wall next to the left front speaker I usually have to increse it a couple db to get it to match the center and right front on a SPL meter.
2)Sometimes I play music and movies really really loud.
3)We have decided that when we move into our next home (1 to 2 years away) that we want to have a pretty decent-sized great room instead of a separate family room/living room.

I'm just really stuck on whether the M80/HSU VTF-3 or the M60/EP500 would sound better. Is the EP500 that much better than the VTF-3? Anybody been able to compare the two?

Sully

Another thing to ponder is the strain on the reciever. The M80 is a tougher load than the M60. You "may" end up with a higher overall clean volume from the M60 with your reciever in your small room.

Sully, welcome. On your question as to whether there's been a change made in the M80, the answer is yes, but it isn't clear when or what. Alan has commented that an old NRC response graph shown in a SoundStage test isn't valid for current production, but he didn't go into detail. I'd guess that the crossover has been modified to lower the level to the tweeters. Note Ian's and Alan's replies here .