A while back I asked if anyone had heard the Boston Acoustics VRi 595 in-ceiling speakers because a friend of mine had just bought them (very heavy wife influence in speaker selection). He has a Denon 3805 and a Def Tech sub. I got the opportunity to listen to the system briefly yesterday - and while the sound from the individual speakers was pretty decent compared to my very average in-ceiling Proficent C610s, it was nowhere near the sound I get from my Axioms or Polks - plus it was all coming from up in a 10 foot ceiling so it sounded very directionally artificial (for lack of a better term). So this leads to my ultimate question - Is it possible to make an in-wall or in-ceiling speaker that comes close to what one can achieve with standard bookshelf or floorstanders? And what about outdoor speakers? And if it is possible, has anyone done it - because another friend of mine is considering putting a home theater in the new house he is building and his wife likes the in-ceiling, in-wall idea... Thanks.

Hi Foghorn,

To answer your question in a word, No. The wall or ceiling becomes, in effect, the front baffle of the speaker, and severely compromises sound quality. I've never heard any in-wall or in-ceiling models that are better than mediocre.

If Axiom finds a way to build high-quality in-wall speakers, we'll build them.

Regards,

I have two in-ceiling speakers for surrounds. This is paired with a set of BW 704s up front, no center and no sub. A HK AVR 430 does the signal processing and amplification.

In the future, I'll get a sub and BW ceilings -- in that order.

The ceiling speakers are not a well-known or great brand I'm sure but they came with the house. I was happy to get them calibrated to reference level which I was unable to do with a pair of JBL bookshelves I had laying around.

From an astethics point of view I like having them on the ceiling out of the way. This is a family room and not a home theater room so to speak. If I were building a true home theater for only that purpose I would not use ceiling mounted speakers.

I have no desire for 5 channel music -- so my surrounds are for movies and regular TV programming. For sporting events and your standard Dolby 2.0 broadcasts I enjoy the sound using Logic 7 Stereo or some form of 2->5 channel conversion.

I watched the Matrix yesterday on HBO (broadcast in DD 5.1) and I enjoyed what I was hearing.

If you want 5 channel music I don't recommend this setup. I like my music from the fronts only.

Comparing my setup to my parents which have a Sony HTIB application it isn't even close which I would rather listen to.

If you do get ceiling mount speakers I'd recommend an adjustable tweeter so you can give a bit of direction to adjust the sound.

If you've got someone you know who uses them go have a listen to your type of music/video.

Alan...just curious but have your heard either of these?

Snell in-wall
Veritas in-walls

I realize these are very pricey. But I just wonder if it's simply not possible to make a really great sounding in-wall speaker, or is it simply not possible to make one that's truly affordable.

Spiffnme, I couldn't find prices on those links. How much are they?

Also, if the house is wired for ceiling speakers, would a ceiling mounted (in other words speaker hanging down from the ceiling on a mounting bracket - the overall effect of which would leave a very negative aesthetic impression and may not meet WAF) Epic Master package have good enough sound to justify the trouble/looks?

Hi Spiff,

No, I haven't heard them, but the three engineers i know at Energy/Mirage/Athena are talented so there's a possiblility that if an in-ceiling/in-wall design were to sound better, it could come from one of them.

Regards,

Foghorn,

Sure, if you have a quality speaker and suspend it away from the ceiling with a bracket, it could be excellent. Some Axiom customers have used such a scheme to suspend QS8s or bookshelf models from the ceiling with a specialized bracket.

Regards,

Thanks Alan. That's what I figured. I guess we'll have to see what my friend's wife allows. Currently she likes the directionality and size of the Bose systems and since they have a Bose stereo system that they like very much it will be hard to get her to go to anything bigger....

When the AMC800 debuted in 2001 it was $2000/pair

The Veritas...$2250 per pair.

Ouch. They'd better sound amazing.

"Ouch. They'd better sound amazing."

No....sh...er...kidding

Spiff,

I can't believe those prices! I guess I better get together with Ian and see if we can't come up with something that sounds better at half the price or less. But the problem remains, if the speaker goes into the wall--not on it or protruding somewhat (to avoid the potential colorations added by the wall)--then the overall sound will be determined more by the area of the wall surrounding the in-wall speaker and the room than by the speaker itself. I think most of these manufacturers are bending to the demands of custom installers. Custom installation is a big (and very profitable) part of many retailers' businesses, so they pressure the speaker companies to produce an in-wall line.

Regards,

Hmmm.. sounds like there are plenty of opportunities for experimentation there Alan. i wonder if any of the companies that have tried this in the past have tried to remove the colorations by flush mounting the drivers, and using a molded face plate that could slightly deflect or refract the sound waves as they come out. I'm picturing a small (1/8" - 3/8" tall) "mountain range" type of arrangement encircling the driver on the face plate to "ease" the offending sound waves away from the wall in a controlled manner. There has to be something that can be done to alleviate the effect of the wall.

I wonder if anyone has tried making the entire face plate concave, (either rounded like a salad bowl, or flat like the inside of a funnel) and mounting the driver slightly behind the wall.

Alan, I'd just like to underscore Michael's point that Axiom seems well-positioned to use its expertise and reputation to broaden its product offerings in this area. If you built this type of product, many existing owners would find a use for it and prospective customers would be drawn by your established reviews in traditional speakers.

Michael, mounting the drivers behind the plane of the wall would probably sounds worse than mounting them a bit forward of the plance of the wall.

Here's a great java animation to give you a visual example.

To avoid the edge diffraction, you'd need to stand the drivers off the wall somewhat and provide some sort of contoured surface around each driver.

But I agree that great strides are just waiting to be made in this field. Visually and practically, there's little difference btw. a flush-mounted speaker and one that protrudes even up to an inch.

I know I'd likely buy a pair for our bedroom.

Hi,

PMBuko is correct. And using a concave arrangement, like a salad bowl, would gently horn-load all the drivers. I can tell you wouldn't like the coloration that results. I mean, you could accommodate it, but if you had neutral uncolored front speakers, you'd always notice the coloration in the surrounds and it would likely become increasingly annoying over time. That's my experience in the past.

Regards,

1) Many people seem to be going for in-wall or in-ceiling speaker for the fronts and center as well, so the relative coloration is a non-factor. The builders seem to be selling this to the wives (no offense to any women here) - so any advance in this area would be an improvement.

2) You're probably giving too much credit to the potential customers that would order in-wall or in-ceiling speakers. I figure if they could hear the difference, then they would have ordered "real speakers" in the first place...

While I'm sure a market for better in-walls exists, I don't believe in-walls fit with Axiom's engineering goals. Can you imagine the look on the faces of Axiom's staffers on the day they released a speaker that predictably resulted in colored sound? I think there'd be tears all around.

The animation Peter linked to is why I mentioned adding the raised "obstacles" to the face plate. We know that the sound waves experience refraction as they pass through the opening, and that they tend to hug the surface.

What I was suggesting was to design a faceplate that uses intentional refraction (and reflection as well) to correct the "natural" refraction. Place an obstacle on the exit side wall on each side of the opening. Design that obstacle in such a way that it reflects enough of the sound back to the "proper" direction to fill in a good bit of what is lost, and also to refract (or diffuse) the remaining sound energy away in a "diluted" fashion.

Another possibility is to change the shape of the opening. Beveled in, maybe? Before they get to the exit, relfect inwards the sounds that will be bent outwards as they exit the speaker. Come up with a way to produce the sound inside of the speaker in such a way that it needs the effects of refraction from the wall to sound right. Kinda like "folding" up sound, and letting refraction "unfold" it for you.

How about putting a disk in the center of the speaker? The edges of it would refract the sound waves inward towards the center. Maybe the outward refraction of the wall plate would undo the effect and it would end up sounding right.

Just pondering...