Good Afternoon,
I have made the decision that as soon as I can sell my HItachi 57T500 or as soon as I come up with some extra money, I am going to put in a front projector in my basement. I am asking this forum for some advice because It seems that the best advice I receive in regards to what I have purchased in the past has come from this forum. The best example was last year when I decided to upgrade my DVD player. I was currently using a Denon 910 hooked up to my Hitachi via component cables. I went into a local retailer and saw a 2900 sitting next to the 2910. The salesman asked me about my TV and told me that the 2910 was newer model and would be a MUCH better choice over the 2900 because it had a DVI connection. As it turns out, the 2900 ended up being the better player for me and this forum is what led me to hunt one down and get rid of the 2910.
Anyways, back to my question.
My room is 18 x 11 with a 7ft ceiling.
I will probably be able to either ceiling mount the projector or bulid a shelf in the back of the room to sit it on.
I watch about 80 % DVD's and the rest is a mixture of HD programming and standard television.
I enjoy how dark the blacks get with the current set so I am interested in one of the players that has the new DLP pj with the dark chip. This has lead me to the 4805 and the Optoma H31. Their prices seem great and I have read alot of the reviews on this forum.
Based on my room dimensions, would either of these two work nicely in my room?
What size and what type of screen should I consider?
If I decided to increase my budget for the projector to 2500, are there some other players that I should look at, or is the H31 and 4805 the best bang for the buck going?
Any advice would be helpful and I would appreciate it very much.
Thanks,
JEFF
if you are looking for a projector there are tons of stuff you have to figure out. firts how far are you going to be from the screen. you have to figure that out first so you can figure out your screen size. i think you could have probaly about 100inch diagonal screen with those projecters. sanyo z3 is also a nice projector in that price range. as far as good black levels they are all supose to be decent but remeber the bigger the screen the less contrast you'll get. for another 1000 bucks there are some real nice projectors with better black levels and contrast. look at the optama h57 or the mitsubshi hc900u both are excelllent projectors that'll blow the ones your looking at out of the water. they run for about 3 grand. you have to take into consideration the contol over light in your room also lighter rooms require more lumens. so bright rooms need more lumen output controlled rooms you can get away with very little with a good projector. i bought the mitsubishi hc900u and couldn't be happier. hope that helps you out a bit.
I've got a Z3 and love it. I was looking at what would be the benefits of adding about $1000 to my budget, but the additional cost wasn't worth the slight increase in features for the projectors that I was looking at. I has a little limited in the I have about 11 feet from the front of the projector to the screen and I wanted around 104" 1.78:1 (HD screen ratio). Some projectors need to be further back than 11 feet to get that picture, others were not HD, some had bad reviews, so on and so forth.
Of course the Z3 is LCD, not DLP, but I saw the infamous rainbow effect with DLP. I have always been able to see imperfections in things related to what I would call "refresh rates" of lights. I can see flickering monitor screens when others can't, and I can even tell when a flourescent light is flickering when others can't. People say that some DLPs are better than others, but to get one that should work for me, I was at around $5000+ which was too much. Not that I think that the Z3 is a "last choice." I think that for the price it is the best thing out there. Good luck.
the z3 is a good machine but come on.its going a little bit overboard comparing it to projector's in the 3 grand range. go to projector central or the avs forum. put the z3 against mitsubishi hc900u benq 7700 or the optoma h57 its not even close. the z3 is an entry level projector for home theater. also lcd is no longer the front runner in front projectors dlp is just as good if not better in a lot of cases. rainbows can be a downfall with dlp but that was a problem mabey two years ago. the panasonic au700 is a good machine and an lcd like the z3 but both have many problems with screen door effects. all in all its a good projector but with a few more bucks there are better. go check out reveiws on these projectors mentioned you'll see what i'm talkin about.
Thanks for all the input so far. I have seen a demo of the Z3 and it was good but nothing that completely blew me away. I am having a hard time finding any dealers in my area that have front projectors in a showroom for demo. I have been in contact with somebody that is about 2 hours away that has a 4805 hooked up. So, I might plan a trip up later this week.
{Taking the rude slap to the face and turning the other check...)
This was a reply to smokey's post, but is not limited to smokey in what I am posting.
Actually I DID compare it to projectors around the $3000 range, but no where did I say that before now, so your assumption that I did was unfounded. I was able to buy my Z3 from an authorized Sanyo reseller that price matched a "questionable" reseller out of NY. I got it for right around $1500, so REALLY I was talking around the $2500 price range, and believe me, 2 months ago, $2500 did not be me much more than what I was getting with the Z3.
Also, recall that I told you about my "dilemma" with DLP projectors and rainbow... It is like your comment about screen door effect, although I have read several professional reviews about the Z3 that say that screen door effect does not exist at normal viewing distances, and I could prove it (at my house, of course). If you sit too close (remember I am at about 11' away from 104" screen, so that is pretty close, and I would call about 9' just too close, unless you are the type that likes to sit in the first few rows in a movie theater and move your head back and forth to see all of the action on the screen), than you will see screen door on an LCD. Vertical banding is also an issue for many projectors in that price range, some are worse than others. I do not have it, but mileage will vary. I have tweaked my Z3 quite a bit so that may be why I like the image, and with the screen combo I have, I do not get great blacks, but the image really "pops" and to me is impressive.
As for smokey's comments about Projector Central and AVS, I've been there. I've been in the $3500 and under digital projector forum on AVS, and I've read the reviews on the major projector review sites including Projector Central, and you know what, they like the Z3 (and others, obviously). And they even point out that DLP HAVE gotten better as a whole, but there are, just like in LCD, a lot of lemons out there. You are correct that DLP technology is pretty cool, kind of like when plasma TVs came out. It was really cool that they could offer a good picture in such a thin package, but plasma is flawed too. And DLP has many advantages, but as you mention the Z3 (and similar AU700) ARE entry level HD projectors (note the HD, there are many that are not), but for the $2500 that COACH2369 is talking about, we ARE looking at entry level, including entry level DLP that do not all have the color wheel (rainbow effect) problem fixed. Are there good DLP for $2500, you bet. But that is only if he CAN increase his budget to $2500. Is the Z3 the greatest thing since sliced bread, heck no, and I never said that it was. I only said that I needed a certain zoom range to get the image size I wanted, and DLP in the price range was not rainbow free (newer DLP technology, for a newer technology price, is supposed to be better or even rainbow free, but not in my price range under the zoom limitation I had).
I also just said that I really liked mine and not to discount it (or, I guess you implied, LCD technology). DLP costs more, but is not always better.
If someone gave me $4000 to spend today (or probably even $3000 and I did some really hard price shopping) I would probably go DLP as long as I could demo it and ensure that the rainbows were not in those models (again, not everyone sees them, so this is not a problem for everyone).
When I upgrade from my Z3 (whenever that will be) it will most likely (since I can not predict the future) be DLP, but will be something similar to the 4K lineups (4000+ lines, not $4000) that are super crazy in price right now, and that will be when those are in the $3000 price range. Until then, I am happy with what I have.
Smokey, now that I am off of my soap box, I want to let you know that while I was insulted by your comments, I still respect you as a member of the Axiom Audio boards, for whatever value you give that. Rarely does this board have "spats" like this and I feel that some how by my responding to your message, I am turning people off to this board, so I apologize for that to anyone (un)fortunate enough to read this.
Check out the $3500 and under projector threads at AVS, go to Projector Central, read reviews, look at your zoom, brightness, contrast, screen size needs, and make your best educated purchase and be happy with it. Everyone likes something different. I own a minivan and a slightly modified Ford Contour, Smokey might drive something like a Lexus or BMW, I have what I need to get to work and haul the family around, and maybe he is at a point where he can spend more money and get a nicer car. Each gets from point a to point b but do it is uniquely different manners. Just like Axiom, you love them or hate them. Most people here are passionate about them, and like Smokey and I, that passion flows into other areas as well.
(Can I possibly ramble on any longer?)
If you take nothing else out of this odd, long post, take my last bit of advice and do your homework. I didn't have any local dealers with anything under $5000 to look at, except for one over priced place that sold $800 projectors for $3000, so I had to rely a lot on internet information and traveling to other cities to see things in action. Make your own assessment.
I'm dropping out of this thread, and won't even read it moving forward. I hope that others will offer their opinions (as requested) and provide even more helpful tips.
Good luck!
I'm with Nick on this one, I would not call the Z2 or the Z3 an entry level projector. Also, they don't have any screendoor issues as Smokey implies. Actually DLP's can have screendoor also. With LCD you can get into the higher resolutions, even HD much cheaper than DLP. DLP's are coming down in price, but you still have to pay a lot more to get HD true HD resolution (720p, 1080i)
To the thread starter, welcome to the world of front projection. If you have not already, check out
www.projectorcentral.com There you will find great articles on both technologies, and unbiased reviews of various projectors. You will note that the Z2 and Z3 are one of the highest rated projectors out there. Contrast ratings on LCD have come a long ways over the past few years, granted, they are still a bit lagging from DLP's, but nothing that can't be resolved with proper room adjustments.
Yes Nick, I'll have pictures soon....just started painting my ceiling and side walls with Eddie Bauer Dark Navy Blue Flat paint, and will start on the back wall soon with "Black Leather" from Valspar.
The best thing to do is try to demo both LCD and DLP. You would hate to get home and find out you suffer from Rainbows with DLP, as I do.....good luck
Randy
well i have to say i'm quite baffled why you took my comments so personal. no where in my reply did i attack you personally. all i was sayin was that you overstated the qualitiy. if you felt as if it were a personal attack that was not my intent. i look at it this way theres a 1000 dollar difference at most between the z3 and and midrange projectors. i'd personally would spend the 3 grand on something that would have more flexibility if i was moving to a bigger room. spending some extra money to began with might save you some in the long run. as to the comments that what i drive has anything to do about with what i said about the sanyo z3 is beyond me. also if you read the post to which i replyed to i reccomended the z3 and said it was a good projector. but if he could to look at some better ones for a little more. you say your sensitive to rainbows. well i'm just saying for the guys sake whos interested in buying a projector dlps are very good now,some do have problems but like i said some have issues with lcds. i tryed to explain my position. by being critical of a projector is by no means personal. critics do it everyday.
one of the best projectors for the money in my opinion is the benq 6200, thats what I have and love it picture is wonderful, don’t have HD service, but when watching dvd's over composite video the quality is theater like quality... sure it could be better, but not very much better, I will probably not be buying another projector for a very long time as i am so happy with the quality of my current projector. no rainbows or anything of that nature, if you get a little dirty power, there is some scrolling lines, but they are only evident if you are looking for them, if you are just sitting and watching a movie you wont even notice them, and I’m sure that any other projector would have the same issue, as we have very little control over the power we receive at out houses...
H30 in action. Over a year and still great picture.
http://www.spacelofts.com/h30/
Just curious if anyone here has heard of the DIY LCD projectors. You basically rip apart an LCD monitor, install it in a box, use a fresnel lens, and a halide bulb. Here is the
link and I will warn you they charge for the directions. I am in no way affiliated with them, my friend found them and made his own pj. The results were REALLY nice and we watched some HD content and played Unreal Tourney 2k4. He did it all for under $600. Think of this as a cool science experiment, granted you have the time. I've been meaning to do this but haven't had much free time (read: lazy
)
Since it is an LCD monitor there are no problems with 1080i or even 1080p! So check out the site and their forum members have many pics of their setups. This can be done REALLY cheap and [bold]might[/bold] have better or equivalent picture quality to the expensive pj's you guys are referring to. NoTE: I did say might...not trying to start a flamewar.
Let me know what ya guys think...
Hash
Well... not quite no problem with 1080. You'd have to have a HUGE panel that you're willing to tear apart to do that... 1900x1080. That's a 23" widescreen or above, which usually go for, oh, say, at least $1500. The 20" widescreens are (only-hah!) 1600x1024 or thereabouts. And that's still at least $500--if you get a good deal.
And having to build your own container for it, with a way of focusing the fresnel, and a light source that won't vignette, and keeping the whole thing cool and the fact that it wouldn't be CSA approved, meaning if your house burns down due to it, your insurance would be all but void...
There's a bunch of drawbacks in the first 3 seconds I thought of it.
Believe me, I'm pro-DIY projects (I built my own arcade cabinet) but... a projector out of a monitor... I dunno...
Bren R.
I agree with you Bren, for me a DIY screen, theater stage, elevated seating, oh yeah and a 12" Dobsonian telescope are one thing, but a projector? I've heard a lot of people on AVS talk about this skeem, and most of them have been very unhappy with the results. I'll guarantee ya they will never put out an image as nice as my Z2.
I have seen the 4805 and H31. IMO, the H31 is readily the better of the two. Colors and blacks are significantly better. I am currently saving for it and a 100" fixed screen.
My friend and I both eyed the H31 for some time and hoped for the day when one would be in our homes. Well, he beat me to the punch (as usual) and picked one up a few weeks ago. He paid $1200 for his H31 from a local dealer who agreed to match COSTCO's price (originally quoted $1400). By the way, if you don't have an Optoma dealer near you, but do have a COSTCO nearby; it might be something to consider. Even though you have to buy the H31 from COSTCO online; you can drop the unit off at any COSTCO retail store to arrange any warranty work etc. in the event something goes bad.
At $1200, the H31 is very hard to beat, IMO.
I have heard alot of good things about the H31 since I started this post. I noticed that the 4805 is available at Circuit City online for 999 after rebate. That is why it looked so good. I think I have narrowed it down to the H31 or even the H57. It is going to depend if I am able to sell my Hitachi and whether I decide to spend that much extra on my first projector.
Thanks for all the input, and I welcome even more!
if you can get a good deal on the h57 go for it. the h31 is good also but if the h57 is in your reach it would be the one to get.
Hi,
Just a modest correction here: DLP does not have "screen-door effects". The latter is intrinsic to LCD front and rear projection because the grid of wires that fire each LCD pixel runs between all the pixels on an LCD device. In other words, the LCD pixels cannot be placed as close together as a DLP because of the wire grid. The density of the pixels is inherently greater with the TI micro-mirror devices.
It depends on how sensitive you are (and how close you sit) as to whether the screen door effect bothers you. It always bothers me, but not everyone. No such grid exists with a DLP chip.
You can also sit too close to a DLP image and begin to see various artifacts, but it isn't a "screen-door effect".
All single-chip DLP devices except for the three-chip projectors (very expensive) will exhibit rainbow effects. For most viewers, including myself, they are only occasionally visible and a minor distraction in what otherwise can be a stunning image that has very satisfying "pop" and contrast with excellent blacks.
Other viewers who are sensitive to rainbow effects my find they simply cannot use a DLP projector.
I have to intentionally look for rainbow effects by quickly averting my gaze away from the screen and back to see them. I also see them after hours of viewing with pinpoint lights in an image.
Let me clarify, the term I should have used is "pixelation". Many in the front projection community, refer to screendoor/pixelation as meaning the same.
The screendoor effect is caused by the space between the pixels, known as the inter-pixel gap. In older LCD's from a few years ago, the screendoor effect and pixelation were much more of an issue.
However, in today's LCD projectors, the inter-pixel gaps on LCD panels have been reduced and physical resolution--the number of pixels on the screen--has been increased. Many of today's LCD widescreen format projectors use either 1280x720 or 1366x768 resolution displays. So, visible pixelation and the screendoor effect have been reduced dramatically. At these new pixel densities, visible pixelation is usually eliminated at normal viewing distances.
In addition, the Inter-Pixel gaps have also been reduced a lot in SVGA and above resolutions, so screendoor is not really an issue anymore. For my Sanyo Z2, with a 110" diag. screen, you have to get within 4ft. to even see a hint of screendoor, and I have 20/15 vision, not that that makes a difference.
DLP technology creates a pixel by reflecting light from a tiny mirror, its edge definition is softer and less well-defined than LCD. So for the most part, at any given resolution, DLP still holds a slight advantage over LCD in visible pixelation, however, LCD is narrowing the gap.
Sorry for any confusion.
oh, some good advice here, and some misleading advice as well.
projector central is a good "start". But, some of their views and opinions have been questionable. So like anything on the web, read it with an open mind.
www.avsforum.com is another good spot to read. Out of all the sections on that forum, I liked the under 3500 projector section the most. There is a lot of good people there that ccan help.
Now, personally, I got the infocus 4805. I started late December into looking to make a room dedicated to a front pj. I also work at a university in the tech dept so we do all of the projector work on campus. So, I have had a chance to use quite a few projectors over the years as we go through quite a few of them. But, home theater is a different beats, and there is a lot to take into account that I have learned over the last few months since. I'm still learning.
Support is something you need to take into consideration. Projectors can be reliable, but can also be a nightmare, and getting prompt service done is critical.
Panasonic makes the ae700. I almost bought this. It is an LCD. It's a good 720p pj, but more importantly, it's lens can be used in a wide variety of rooms and is very easy to setup. Because of this, you have more options as to where you can mount it...up close to the screen, far away and so on. But Panasonic Canada is worthless. They are known for their pathetic customer support. they just don't seem to care. And their pricing in canada is nuts. that being said,the ae700 has dropped in price lately, and if you can find one, take a look as it's a highly regarded pj. It has a problem with dust spots though, something you might want to read up on.
The LCD vs DLP debate is way overblown. So is the vertical banding and rainbow debate. I've yet to have anyone in my house that can see rainbow on my 4805. We use mostly all LCD's at work, and vertical banding is also a non issue. These are things that video enthusiast tend to blow out of proportion. It's not that they don't exist, but not to the degree that some make them out to be. Personally, I was used to seeing LCD's. But, when I seen the 4805, the colors were without a doubt much better. Blacks were also clearly better. We have dozens of infocus pj's, and they are reliable, and the service in Canada is great. the infocus screenplay 5000 is also a great LCD pj, with 720p support, and brighter then the ae700. It's often overlooked though for some reason, shame because it is a nice pj for a bit less $$$
Also don't buy a business projector to watch movies. The colors are just horrible in comparison. only reason why you should go with a business one is if your playing games on it that use 4:3, or using a computer through it. Keep in mind all the new consoles will be 16:9 anyways. And most xbox games already support 16:9.
This is a very very lengthy topic, and has no clear answer. You really need to start reading up on stuff. I was overwhelmed with which one to buy and I was used to picking out pj for work.
fyi, I have a 4805, 11x17 room, 110 inch screen. I don't like to use Zoom unless I have to,so the pj is 17' back. Seating is 16' and 12'. But, I am using high gain M2500 screen. The 4805 is bright, actually brighter then the ae700, but at that distance I like to use a high gain screen as I like images have that extra pop. The 4805 isn't technically a HDTV pj, which is why I almost got the AE700/5000 instead, but I plan to upgrade wo 1080i anyways so I saved some money to get some axioms and got the 4805 instead. Surprisingly, the 4805 does an amazing job of scaling down 1080/720 to 480p and I challenge anyone to see a major difference in it compared to a lcd at 720p.
How much light in the room is there? Look at replacement bulb costs. The infocus lasts 3000-4000 hours, and cost about $380 for another bulb.
anyways, I got to go.
Does anyone have a short list of some of the three chip projectors?
Recommendations?
I'm starting to research the front projector idea.
Projector Central is already on my list of website stops for further reading.
well screendoor is an issue still with a lot of lcd projectors. but thats besides the point. there are a lot of good lcd projectors and dlp projectors. i personally prefer dlp. after demoing a fair share of both i took dlp. the contrast for me at least was no contest. black levels are much better. each to his own i guess.
Thanks for all the input and helping me decide on what projector to purchase. I pulled the trigger this afternoon and ordered the H31. I got a pretty awesome deal on it, so I am pleased. Now, I just have to pick out a screen and find a stand for my center channel.
Not according to most reviews, if you read them. Have you actually demoed many LCD's? Just like my Axioms, I wanted to find out for myself, and not really rely on comments from people, who most likely had never veiwed LCD technology, just hearsay. Anyway, I demoed about 5 LCD models and 4 DLP's. For me DLP rainbow's were an issue, I even demoed a higher end InFocus with a 6x wheel, still a no go for me on the rainbow issue. Granted, most people do not suffer from rainbows, and Alan claims he trained himself to not see them, hmmmmm. SDE was a big issue a few years ago, but with the higher HD resolutions, it is not an issue unless you get very close to the screen, which is insane. To get into the same resolution on DLP's you normally have to spend a lot more green. In regards to Contrast, DLP does still have a slight edge in this category, but that is not a huge issue. With the proper treatments to your room and masking techniques, the blacks look wonderful. I few months back, a buddy and I had a blind shoot out on projectors. He has an Infocus 5700 DLP and I have the Sanyo Z2 LCD. We invited 10 friends to his house one Friday night, and the same 10 to my house Saturday night. We watched the same 2 movies, Star Wars VI and Gladiator. These 10 people are not into Front Projection, and had no idea of the technologies used. We had 10 questions for them to answer after the movie, and also had them pay close attention to Blacks, Color Saturation, and any artifacts at various distances from the screen. After compiling everyone's information, my Z2 had a very good turn out. Actually almost 60% of the information favored my LCD technology. Only one person mentioned something to do with noticing the screen effect, after he stood 1ft away, who does that....Anyway, the Infocus did very well also, especially in the richness of colors and blacks, it edged me out, but not enough to say the Z2 was bad.
Oh yeah, at the time I didn't even have good light control, which would have benefited my Z2, since the lumens are lower than the Infocus.
By the way, they loved my Axioms
In reply to:
Granted, most people do not suffer from rainbows, and Alan claims he trained himself to not see them
You know, I honestly hadn't thought of rainbows now for several months, and I've had my Samsung DLP since Thanksgiving or so.
When I first got it, I saw them a few times an hour when turning my head or under "white text on black background" situations. But I honestly don't think I've seen any in a few months.... I have no idea why that is.
Aaaahhh... the monitor is "broken in"!
the electo magnetic field your Axiom's has created on your brain since they broke in, chuckle chuckle, has affected your vision