OK, so I finally bit the bullet and bought a full set of Axiom speakers and a refurbished Denon 6.1 receiver. Last night for the 3rd night I was on my hands and knees trying to wire/figure out/setup this monolith of modern technology. I even had a friend over to help. We have gotten minimal functionality out of it (still can't get it to talk to the surround (rear) speakers, but at least the rest is making sounds. But this whole process is way beyond my capabilities. Especially if I was to do it RIGHT, and incoporate my Dish Network feed, the DVD, VCR, and CD player as I had once hoped.

My question is, there must be people who you can hire to come to your home that know what they are doing and can set this up as is was INTENDED to be set up, and maybe not have wires running every which way. How would I go about finding such a person/business? How much might I expect to spend on this? I live in the north end of Orange County in California.

you could save yourself some money, and just take take your time, everything is labeled, plug the output from the cd player to the imput labeled cd on the receiver (2xrca: red and white), then for the dvd player you would want to get an optical or digital coax which carries all 6 channels of sound to the receiver, and then hook up the dvd player with either component or s-video cables to the receiver where it is labeled "dvd", and then plug in the component cables that connect to the tv that are labeled "monitor" on the back of the receiver, if this is still too confusing, just read the manuals, they usually explain how to hook everything up

I agree with Darren, this is not like rebuilding an engine, which I can't do

Do you have a manual, it should show clearly where all the appropriate plugs go. For speaker wire you have the + and - that should match for that receiver.

For surround speakers, you will not always hear anything from them, only if the movie has surround decoding. What receiver do you have?

papajim- glad you finally got you some Axioms..

while set-up can be confusing, its certanly not anything you would want to waste money with paying someone to do. there are many denon owners on here, so i am sure you will find someone that can take you thru the process fairly painlessly. it seems super hard at first, but once you get a concept of what you are trying to do, it all just starts to fall into place.

as far as no sound going to the rears.. you might just have a setting on the receiver a certian way that doesnt send sound to the rears.. try and set to an "ALL CHANNEL" mode, or one of the DSP modes. if you have speakers wires connected properly, it should be getting powers to the rears.

and read the manual. i have heard the denon manual can be a little complicated, but its has lots of usefull info, so dive into it, and make it make sense.

good luck, and i hope some denon people get on here to help you trouble shoot the problems's.

bigjohn

It's got to be that stupid Denon. I have one, and will tell you that it is a marvelous, reliable, and thoroughly unintelligible box of switches. Whoever programmed that thing thinks differently than I do.

Which model(s) of things do you have?

We've got to have some local forum member that you could feed that would help out. spiffnme and curtis are both in the LA area, I think.

You can do this, Jim. I'm sure people here will help as best we can.

Tom likes to travel also

Randy

60's 150 350 4-Qs8's
Denon 2805

I should have known you guys would go all "sensible" on me. ;-) You are forcing me to relive the painful (I mean that literally as being old and fat and on your knees for hours with a flashlight and a manual can make you sore!) experience of the last few nights. But I suppose it would be easier to commiserate with you all, than to explain it all to a "surround trauma therapist". So here goes.

The Receiver model is AVR-1705. Everyone is always interested in those numbers so I wrote it down.

I suppose all of my problems could be boiled down into 2 categories: 1) No rear sound 2) Running video signals through the Denon

I was at my drummer's house in Seattle a few weeks ago and it seemed like every source of audio he had was somehow channelled through all the speakers. There was never a source that he pulled up and the rear speakers were silent. I thought that the system would "simulate" surround even if it had no actual surround signal. Here's the weird thing: When I press the "test tone" button, it doesn't event TRY to send a sound to the rear speakers. That makes me think that somewhere the thing has been told that I don't have them. Maybe a setting in the configuration of the box? I've read through the manual about 3 times now, and even though it's apparent that it was either 1) translated from another language or 2) written by someone that got a "C" in high school english, I am able to understand most of it. I am still however somewhat intimidated by all the "modes" and what they are supposed to do. But I figure I'll learn that over time. So why no rear channel?

The second issue of video: At first I followed the wiring schematic taking the video out and component out from the DVD and mapped them as indicated. I could not ever get a PICTURE to show up on my TV. So in frustration last night, I wired the DVD video directly into the TV as it has always been, and routed only the audio through the Denon. This provided my first glimpse of daylight as I actually saw a picture and heard sounds that appeared to be from the same source!!! But I fear that by doing it this way I am giving up some sort of functionality. I just had to have SOME kind of victory last night or I was going to hurt myself.

My friend pointed out that I really needed a digital optical cable to run from my DVD to the Denon. I plan to get one of those today on the way home from work (radio shack knows me on a first name basis now). He seemed to think that would kick in those rear speakers. He may be right. But again, I wired my Dish network regular TV stereo into the amp, and it plays it in stereo through the FL and FR speakers, but now the Center and rear sit quietly. I was hoping for more.

Thanks for your patience and help everyone. Please forgive my sarcasm and attempts at humor!

"I was at my drummer's house in Seattle a few weeks ago and it seemed like every source of audio he had was somehow channelled through all the speakers. There was never a source that he pulled up and the rear speakers were silent. I thought that the system would "simulate" surround even if it had no actual surround signal. Here's the weird thing: When I press the "test tone" button, it doesn't event TRY to send a sound to the rear speakers. That makes me think that somewhere the thing has been told that I don't have them. Maybe a setting in the configuration of the box? I've read through the manual about 3 times now, and even though it's apparent that it was either 1) translated from another language or 2) written by someone that got a "C" in high school english, I am able to understand most of it. I am still however somewhat intimidated by all the "modes" and what they are supposed to do. But I figure I'll learn that over time. So why no rear channel?"

I had this problem with my HK receiver, but I believe the solution is universal. You have to tell your receiver that you are running rear speakers. Go to the speaker setup or configuration and there should be an "on" switch for the rears.

EDITED TO SAY: Check pages 43-45 in your manual, I think that should answer your question.

Jim,

If you do not have any other video sources just leave your DVD player hooked to the T.V.

Just occured to me. Are you running component video cables? If the Denon is anything like my HK, I do not see the receiver on-screen menu through the component video input. Instead I use the s video connection to see the onscreen menu. Hmm, just trying to help. I know how frustrating it is when things don't work.

As darren700 said, you will need a digital coax or an optical cable to handle the sound to all your speakers. If you are just using analog connections (usually the red and white connectors) you will just get stereo playback.

Good luck.

Edit--sorry, just read that you have multiple video sources. Disregard my opening statement.

We're gonna get this fixed. Without you having to pay my airfare or pour me a beer or anything

How do you have the Denon connected to your TV (what kind of cable and which jacks, what kind of TV do you have, does it have multiple inputs, etc.)?

You have to connect the Denon to the TV using either composite, S-Video (the multi-pin thing - better) or component (the three RCA cable - best) from one of the jacks marked "Monitor" on the back of the Denon.

Here is a link to a picture we can refer to together

1705 back

If the Denon isn't even trying to send a test to the surrounds, you might have them set to "none" in the speaker setup. Go to pages 19-20 in the manual and run through that again. If you are running 5.1 you want Surr. either large or small (probably small) and the S. Back set to none.

Here is the manual in case anybody needs it:

1705 Manual

Hook up the DVD audio using Digital optical input 1.

After that, you should be able to mess with the surround settings and get what you want. I think you'll be MUCH happier in the long run if you run your video sources (Dish, DVD, etc.) through the Denon rather than having to switch the inputs on the TV and the Receiver all the time.

You need Ray. Ray, please come in. RU there? PapaJim, the set up can be thought of as a step by step process. Grab the owners manual and go through the setup process one step at a time and all will be well.

I agree with Tom on this one. It sounds like you don't have your surrounds turned on in the receiver SETUP menu. On my Denon 2805, there is a Setup menu where I can turn on my surrounds or rears channels.

Just chiming in for my 2 cents.

When you think you have everything setup you can just grab any Star Wars dvd (everyone has at least one, right?) and go to the THX menu setup and run through the speaker tests. It will pitch sound to each speaker and show you at the same time on the screen which speaker should be getting sound.

At least this way you'll know you have all the speakers setup correctly, as long as you are using a digital coax or optical wire from your dvd player to your receiver.

And I guarantee you when you get everything setup yourself, you will not let anyone else touch it.

Hiya Jim,

Congrats on the Denon - you really will enjoy it when you get it all hooked up. Let’s see if we can get you started.

SPEAKERS FIRST.
Look at the back panel in Tom’s post. On the bottom, just right of center are a series of red & black connectors. Since you don’t have a “zone 2”, you want to be connected as follows:

FRONTS - R & L for “A”

CENTER - Only one choice

REAR SURROUNDS - Top & bottom Surround R&L (NOT “Surround Back”)

Here’s the fun part - you need to go into the Setup Menu. See page 8 of your manual and look at the remote. On the left side, about 60% down is a key titled “Setup”. If you press this key, the setup menu will appear, item by item, on your receiver screen (you don’t have the “On Screen Display” feature for use with the TV).

Now, go to page 18 in the manual. This table shows what shows up and in what order. See the picture of the remote to learn how to use the buttons to navigate. Unless you have a subwoofer, set all of your speakers to Large.

Here is your frustrating problem - Page 19 of the manual shows how to set your speakers. On page 20, item 4 (4. S, Back) set your surround speakers to “SMALL”. I suspect they are currently SET TO “OFF”.

COAX OR OPTICAL
If you are going to use a COAX or Optical for connecting one of your devices (TV, DVD, etc.), you will need to “assign” it in the Setup menu. We’re back on page 18 of the manual in the table. See the box titled “Digital In Assignment”. The defaults are shown. For simplicity, I’d suggest you just plug the Optical from the DVD into “Optical 1. It should work without any further tweaking. If it doesn’t scroll through the Setup Menu and when you get to the Digital In Assignment, click on the device to the right until “DVD/VDP” shows up - that’s how you “assign” it. See page 26 of the manual - you can assign the Coax or Optical to any of your devices here.

NOTE - if you are not using COAX or Optical, you will need to run red & white audio cables form the device to the red & white connectors on the left side of the Denon (second set of connectors in titled “Audio”). This is where you will connect your CD Player (unless you are using Coax or Optical)

VIDEO INTO the DENON
I’ll assume you are connecting your DVD and SAT (Dish) using component cables. Look at Tom’s picture again. Just above the black & red speaker connections is a box called “Component Video” with sets of green/blue/red connectors. Use these as your video IN to get all of it into the Denon.

DVD - come from your DVD player with the green/blue and red component cables and plug them in here.

DISH receiver - from the Dish receiver into the set named TV/DBS (DBS is shorthand for satellite).

VCR - same thing.

NOTE - if for some reason you are using Svideo instead of component, for some or all of your devices, run the Svidoe (instead of component) to the Svideo connecter on the Denon. These are in a vertical column below and a few inches to the left of the Component connectors.

VIDEO OUT of the Denon and Into the TV
Back to the “Component Video” on the back of the Denon. Connect a set of component cables running from the Denon (from the connections in the checker board design) to the TV. Again, if you are using Svideo (I strongly recommend the Component cables so you get the video upconversion), run an Svideo from the checkerboard Svideo connector to the TV.

IMPORTANT - GO TO PAGE 27 OF THE MANUAL. ONCE AGAIN YOU WILL NEED TO TWEAK THE SETTINGS. SET EVERYTHING TO “AUTO” AND THIS WILL ALLOW THE DENON TO SWITCH EVERYTHING AUTOMATICALLY TO WHATEVER DEVICE YOU ARE WATCHING.

Final point. Go to page 35 of the manual. This page explains how to set everything to AUTO. This is what you want - it makes everything just work.

Once all of this is done, open a beer, call the wife in and look smug like only an electronics whiz can as you change devices and the Denon makes you a hero..

You see Jim, I told you good ole Ray would come to the rescue.

Now we just need good ole Jim to show up again to see if any of it helps him.

Through some manual reading and some experimentation I have gotten limited functionality out of the system. All the speakers are making noise now except when I use the DVD which only uses two of the speakers like stereo. It was enough to get me past the first bout of frustration and at least feel like I hadn't blown a wad of money for nothing. But now my patience has returned and with the most generous help of Ray's step by step, I will sit down one night this week or this weekend and try to get everything hooked up RIGHT. I can't tell you how helpful this is. I promise to report in with my progress!

He came back, he came back!

An update...

I finally sat down with the step by step from above and now everything is working great. I get great sound from the dish network signal, great sound when I play a CD through my DVD player, BUT... a DVD (yesterday I watched The Aviator) actually sounds really weak. If I set it on SIX CHANNEL stereo it sounds nice and full, but there seems to be no "surround" in the sound. Even the TV (Dish) has the good surround sound, but not the DVDs.

The other annoying thing that I can't seem to figure out is when I change from DVD to TV as the source, I have to walk to the box and actually change the DIAL to get the right input source. I can't seem to figure out how to do it from the remote control. I've read through the manual 3 or 4 times now, and I can't figure that one out.

PJ,

I'll try to help and hope you have a remote like mine. I have the RC-921. About halfway done on my remote there is a backlight button. To the right of that button are some buttons labeled in blue, such as Dolby/DTS surround, cinema and music. I'm sure you want to press the DTS button and you can pick either Neo6 or DPL2 there if you wish. I don't think there is such a thing as 6 channel stereo, only 5 channel or 7 channel.

Also,

Go back into the setup menu ansd set your mode to "auto".

Yeah, what he said.

OK, I've had some time now to get intimate with my system, and I've found it's "sweet spots". I've got everything working (almost) and have figured out what sounds best for what. I have to say that I'm very pleased with it overall.

I am a little disappointed actually with the actual AXOIM speakers though. I don't mean to piss anyone off, and I know they host this site. But I spent about $1600 on speakers (which seemed like a LOT to me) and I guess I expected a lot more. The one's I got for the front (1 Pair Millennia M3ti Bookshelves in Black Oak finish for 300.00 USD) have barely a discernable difference from the old pair of JBL bookshelfs I've been using with a regular stereo for TV sound for about 10 years. I bought those for $49 each. Both of these (probably ALL bookshelfs) have no "ooomph" on the low end, and since about 75% of my DVD collection is Concert DVD's just having the Sub-W making the low bass noises just didn't fill the room like I wanted it to. So I ended up rewiring my old Yamaha regular stereo speakers (these are from my college days, over 20 years old!) into the B channel, and I set the Axiom bookshelfs right on top of those. That gives a hugely improved sound to music. Obviously, the speaking parts in video don't really need that type of support, but for the music DVD's and just playing CD's it made the difference of night and day. But I'm happy in all with the current configuration.

There is still one thing I haven't figured out. LittleB was right about those blue buttons controlling the sound type selection, and that was a major breakthrough for me, for which I am grateful. But I still haven't figured out how to change the audio source from the remote. IE: If I'm playing a CD (CD IN) and now I want to watch Television (TV/DBS IN) I still have to get up and walk to the Denon and rotate the big dial on the left until it points at the right input source. I have to believe there's a way to do that most fundamental of changes through the remote, and I'm sure I'll feel like an IDGIT when someone fills me in, but HOW DO YOU DO THAT???

Thanks everyone for your help!

Check out the circular shaped buttons labeled 1-9, 0, TV-VCR, and +10. You will notice that they are also labeled other things in yellow lettering.

I don't think you are going to find a bookshelf speaker that will give you the low end you are looking for. It's kind of difficult to do it all in such a small box. I find most old time speakers will give you muffled bass, but lack in clarity. When I upgraded from an old pair of technics floorstanders to the m22s I lost quite of bit of bass, but gained the detail and clarity I was looking for. Considering that, the loss of 'low end' didn't mean much.

YOU RAWWWK DUDE!!!

And I was right... I feel like an eeeediotttttt. :-/

Papajim-
Good to have you on board. First off, good to see that you set up your own system. When I was reading your request about paying someone I remember the day when I asked that same question. The great things about doing it yourself is, once you learn a little, you can tweek it and still be able to fix what you have played with. Also, should you move or something needs upgrading (don't fool yourself, you will upgrade) you will know how to do it.

50% of the time I still get turned around and a lot of the mumbo, jumbo talk on this (and other) sites is well over my head. Heck, I had to call Ray to have him walk me through, step by step, set up on my Denon 3803. So, take you time, I know it is hard when you throw down $1600 but in the end it will pay off.

Now, onto your M3ti fronts. I am sorry, I have not heard these speakers but please make sure that in your setup options on your Denon you have then set to "Small". I made this mistake once and I paid for it dearly as I really looked like an ass (no comments please all). Also, could you please let us know what the rest of your set up is, ie your rears and sub. Also, what size room do you have this set up in. It may be that you are asking a little too much out of the M3ti's

Anyway, if push comes to shove, I live in N. San Diego and would be willing (with a beer incentive) to drive up to help you out.

From my order:

1 VP150 Center in Black Oak finish
1 Pair Millennia M3ti Bookshelves in Black Oak finish
1 Pair QS4 Surrounds in Black Oak finish
1 Pair FMSQS Stands in Black finish
1 Single QS4 Surround Speaker in Black Oak finish
1 Single FMSQS Stand in Black finish

The setup is in my living room, about 25' x 20'.

Wow! That'sa big room for those lil speakers!

I had M3s in a 12x28 room with no problems, but a move to a 16.5x27 proved disasterous!

That's a M80 size room.

And just when I was starting to feel good about things!!!

So what you're saying is I really needed to spend $3,000. Based on what I read from you addicts, I think it's safe to say I WILL, eventually.

I am just saying your room is awful big for the M3s,or any bookshelf for that matter.

Exactly! "For once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will!"

See what I mean....you will upgrade. I did not see a sub listed there. Do you have one?

Sorry to say, I think the guys are right when they say you may want to move up a step or so. I am not sure you need the M80's as I think the M60's will do a good job for you. If you return the M3ti's for some M60's you are looking at another $600.00. If you do not have a sub, get one. A good sub, paired with the M60's will give you the bang you are looking for (there is a set of M60's on www.audiogon for $500.00). You can get a great one for about $500 (check audiogon from time to time as they come up sometimes for about $350.00). I have the outlaw audio sub in about the same size room as you and it is amazing(www.outlawaudio.com).

So, all in all, to get that bang you will need to spend about another $1100.00. I hope that I have not let you down by telling you that you need other then what you have but in the end you will be very happy with the overall sound vs what you have.



Craig

Check my sig... seems we have something in common (speakers).

I want/have always wanted floorstanding speakers but let me tell you... these M3's are pretty amazing for lil 'bookshelfs'. I don't want to say everyone wrong about small speakers in a big room, but I have my setup in a ~20x28x7 room and it can get pretty damn loud and sounds perfect while doing it. Music, movies its all pretty impressive to me.

Inane, good to hear from someone that has the M3ti's. Again, I am not sure about his room vs st up but from all that I have heard here, to get the punch he wants he may want to move up a little. Also, I am still not sure about his sub or lack of one so that may be the punch he is missing.

For all newcomers that have issues like this, Axiom is very givnig of there time. Give them a call, explain the room and what you do have and they can help better then (sometimes) us.

I have M3s tooand absolutely love them!! So much so, that when it became time to upgrade due to being in a larger room where the M3s "seemed" a bit strained on the louder passages, I made the obvious choice and went with the M50s.

I agree, a bookshelf would probably not be enough for such a large room. I would suggest having a look at M60s at least. My room is almost the size of yours too (maybe a little smaller).

OK, for the record I DO have a nice sub. I bought it because my old DVD player had a line out for a sub, and it made a huge difference. I kept it, and it's really strong.

Ok then; let's see:

So you've already got a good sub, and a VP150 center....good start

You don't care much for the sound of the M3s; that's cool, lots of other folks(other than ME, don't either!!) So you may want to take a look at the M60s at that! The M50s sound like the M3s, but the M60s sound like your new VP150, so that's good match!!

It also sounds like your room is border-line in size for being either too large or not too large, so perhaps M22s would work as well! And they would also match up well with your VP150.

Good to hear you have a sub. You may want to change the sub line out to your reciever line out.

After thought: This is a critical question for me because I am about to add Axiom center and rear speakers IF the 3803 setup problem is my error and not an amp problem. Thanks again.