You might remember I had been complaining a bit about the room layout in the basement (HT) area. The original setup sounded pretty good but only worked for one person... and when I rearranged to make it more people friendly the sound sucked.

I'm posting because I was astounded how much improvement was gained from a relatively small room change. I know I shouldn't have been surprised but I was anyways.

The "before" layout had the speakers at one end of the room, a couple feet from the far wall, over to one side of the room and angled slightly towards the centerline of the room. The furniture (sofa and love seat) were arranged in an L, with the love seat opposite to the speakers and the sofa running between speakers and love seat offset to the other side of the room. Normal seating position was on the sofa with my head twisted towards the screen; love seat was too far away.

The "after" layout basically discarded the love seat, moved the sofa to where the love seat used to be but centered in the room and a couple of feet closer to the screen. The TV and speakers were also centered in the room and pulled a few more feet from the far wall. The new layout is not quite a classic "thirds" floor plan but pretty close, perhaps 1/4, 1/2, 1/4 down the long axis of the room.

I also moved the QS8s so that they were both roughly at ear level with similar orientation and distance, although I did keep the soup cans 'cause I couldn't find the T bracket.

The only settings I changed were to remove a slight boost I had added to one main (2dB) and center (1dB) to reflect the fact that the other main was by a wall while these speakers were "out in the open" by comparison. New settings are 0dB all round except for the sub.

I knew that imaging etc.. would improve a bit (and it did), but two other changes surprised me more. The sound was much more "open", presumably because I didn't have the big sofa right in front of one of the M60s, and the difference in deep bass was astounding. I hadn't realized it, but the old seating position was in the middle of the long axis and close to the middle of the short axis. Since the subwoofer was in the corner that meant I was seated in a big fat null.

Wow... now I know why people babble on about high end subs. I played through the juicy scenes from movies I had played in the last couple of weeks, and the difference in LF effects was huge. The factory scene in Minority Report had never impressed me... in fact I had never really heard the bass that everyone talked about. Now I can feel the bass.

In the "Burly Brawl" from the 2nd Matrix movie there are low frequency "slams" where the sofa comes up and kicks you in the butt and you can almost "see" the bass hit moving across the floor from the speakers to the back of the room.

Fixing up the QS8 location also greatly improved the surround effects. Guess I'll have to go listen to 5 channel music again as well.

One other interesting thing is that the sub is pretty much invisible when listening to music but kicks REALLY hard when watching movies. That either means I have a response hole in the mid-bass or (hopefully) it means that I'm finally hearing decently flat response without mid-bass peaks making the music sound boomy. Going from the PSB sub to the SVS (in the same location) allowed me to greatly reduce the tweaking when going between music and movies; now I don't have to tweak at all

Anyways, I thought the system was pretty good before but now I'm just blown away. Let this be a lesson to everyone re: how much difference the room and placement can really make.... and remember that I always thought this was a crappy room.

What, no pictures or diagrams? Bah, I say. BAH!

Yeah, you're right. OK, here you go :

Original layout (sub not shown but same location) :



New layout :

John, I'm glad to hear you've found such an improvement. Your revalation sounds similar to the one I just had moving into my new house. One thing you said really struck me:

In reply to:

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One other interesting thing is that the sub is pretty much invisible when listening to music but kicks REALLY hard when watching movies. That either means I have a response hole in the mid-bass or (hopefully) it means that I'm finally hearing decently flat response without mid-bass peaks making the music sound boomy.

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This is exactly what's going on in my place right now, and it's really making me want a BFD to tune it just so and make it as perfect as possible. I've read the setup guide, and while it looks tedious it doesn't seem that difficult. Is anyone here familiar with using one of these properly? Is it something that's not for the faint of heart, or can a relatively inept person such as myself tackle a project like this?

congrats John on your new setup, looks awesome. I like the Bar area

That will be my next project for my basement.

If you haven't read this thread, take a look. This describes "doing it just right", with before-and-after frequency response plots, optimized sets of filters and just-so tuning. I don't think most people are so lucky :

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=HT&Number=90033&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

As long as you have a CD or DVD with test tones on it (the realtraps site offers a free download that several people have burned onto CDs) and don't mind plotting a few points in a spreadsheet or on paper you should be able to make a big improvement with some relatively minor adjustments.

If you live anywhere near another audio nut it gets much easier, of course.

One thing I should mention is that I regard my current situation (sub is invisible on music and hits hard on movies) as pretty much ideal. I am getting good, deep bass on the music but there is no hint of overpowering bass. With a less favorable setup you end up having to turn the sub up for movies and down for music, which I hated...

>>I like the Bar area

That's somethingn I'm going to have to figure out for the new house. I might have to go with one of those freestanding bars you see in hotel conventions...

... or it can be some kind of phase II build-in when I add the bass traps and surface treatments I am undoubtedly going to need as a result of having a triangular room.

Hello John,

Delighted you've kept one of the QS8s supported by the Habitant soup cans (Lentil?). It adds that Canadian touch.

Thanks for the great diagrams. I never cease to be amazed by the degree to which slight changes in speaker and listener locations alter the perception of fidelity, soundstage and, of course, bass.

Regards,

I can certainly see why the new floor plan sounds better. I think what I would do is replace the love seat with two comfortable club chairs or tub chairs with casters on the other side of the coffee table or to either side of the table to creat a conversation pit and then when you play movies they swing around easily for viewing. My current setup has the entertainment center angled like your first diagram and I too find it difficult to get a good surround set up for all or even most seating positions. The reality of real living quarters versus dedicated HT rooms.
oz

Thanks for linking that thread bridgman. The setup is a bit tedious since there's a lot of trial and error to it. Somtimes you set the bandwidth too wide and end up filtering too large a frequency range. Sometimes it's too narrow and doesn't do much. While tedious, it's not really difficult once you get the button pressing sequences down.

The BFD is an amazingly good bargain for what it can do.

It took John almost a HALF HOUR to post those diagrams.

Service around here is going all to heck.



Cool.

Have you seen the size of him? I'm amazed he can hit one key at a time
Now that we met at the picnic I feel I can take a few shots at ya

I just rearranged some furniture in my living room, well moved it all in a little closer to the TV. I cant buy a bigger TV for awhile so I thought moving closer would help a little. Damn neighbor bought a new 42" Samsung DLP, and now I dont even want to watch movies at my house. Anyway, I had to put the sub on the other side of the TV now because it would no longer fit where it was at, I lost about half my bass volume from the sub. I need a longer cable for the sub to try the only other place I could put it. I wanted to just move the furniture back where it was but the wifey really likes the furniture where it is now...

If you want to post a diagram we might be able to find another good spot. It's not just "finding the best spot for the sub", it's "finding the best spot for the sub and where you happen to be sitting" ;(

Excellent and informative thread.

Looking at everybody moving their speakers I tried to move the fronts way forward and into the niches on the sides. I did not expect good effect as I thought I tried it before and it was too far away from the screen plane. Something however clicked this time. I used to get the sweet spot only in the back elevated row but now it seems like the surround finally penetrated the front row. The sound is now much more "floating" and not "grounded". This is probably due to some reflection from the side walls. It often feels that the sound is localized in the corners where there are NO SPEAKERS. This is true even when listening in direct stereo. Not bad for 10 minutes effort. Great side effect is that the speakers don't obscure the corners of the screen anymore for all 6 occupants.
Thanks to this forum for motivation to experiment.


M60 x 2
QS8 x 4
VP150
HSU STF2
Panasonic LT500U
Marantz 7400
Panasonic DVD-F87 (used for CD / Stereo)
Pioneer DV-578 (DVD-A / SACD)
Axiom Setup

Digital camera is broken, but I think I can get it to work for one or two pics. I found that by sitting on the other sofa the bass sounds like it used too, and as an added bonus the cushions are'nt worn out either. I'll try to take some pics tonight and post them...Thanks.

This is a picture from the staircase looking down into the living room. As you can see there are no other places to place the subwoofer. Directly to the right of the subwoofer is the front entrance. On the other side is the fireplace. On the bottom right of the picture is the entrance to the dining room. To my left is the back door. There are no corners in this room. It is 19' x 19'.

This picture is from the bottom of the stairs in front of the back door. Note the high dollar speaker stands. Not many places the sub will fit in this room. I might have to get rid of the chair or love seat. This is about as clean as I have ever seen this room.

Set up for the time being....

Right side.

Of course the resident rug rat had to get in a photo or two...First time I have posted pictures of my set up. I don't think there is much I can do without getting rid of some furniture, and I don't think the wifey will go for that. Good excuse to post pictures anyway. If anyone sees anything glaringly obviously wrong let me know or if you see something that would improve the set up. It does sound pretty good the way it is now. The sub was on the other side of the TV between the M80, and everything was shifted to the right about 2 feet.The only problem I have is I lost about half my bass when sitting on the couch directly in front of the TV. I will now be sitting on the love seat to the left of the main couch. Bass sounds damn good over there. The only other problem I have is with reflections off the tile around the fireplace from the front left speaker, but that is only at really high volume with higher pitched passages.
I would like to move everything to the wall behind the main couch, but there are not enough electrical outletson that wall and it would be really hard to run a cable line to that wall( the stairs are behind it and another room on the other side of it, this is a 2 story house, so running wire is beyond my experience with such matters).
If I had my way the fireplace would be ripped out and sheetrocked over so I could have a damn corner. I would also run the speaker wires and cables even if I had to rip out the sheetrock to do it, but money/time/wife considerations will prevent that from happening anytime soon.

That is a huge subwoofer. It dwarfs your beautiful daughter...you'er probably right about it being the only place to put it - although I did see a corner in between the couches where it might double as a coffee table (rumble feature at no additional cost).

I would just note that your right speaker appears to be toed in quite drastically - is this accomodate for the left couch?

ANyway, thanks for the pics.

I have the same sub only in Cherry...I am trying to find a location where it does not rattle the glass and metal front on the front of a similar fireplace configuration...

Forget what we were watching the other night but the glass and metal front vibration on the fireplace had me thinking "that is an unusual sound effect" for the type of movie we were watching...until I figured out what it was...

It is although currently not in its final position...I have to finish the armoire that the TV and A/V equipment will be housed in...stained to closely match my Warm Cherrywood Axioms...

The Thunder Reigns Supreme!

WhatFurrer

It was toed in a little too much, I straightened everything back where it should be. After the hurricane Rita scare, stuff was kinda shuffled around everywhere. Still putting stuff back where it belongs. I was going to evacuate but there was too much traffic and it was too goddamn hot!!! It was over a 100 everyday that week. It was still pretty hot today too, when I got home and opened the garage door the thermometer read 100 even. Supposed to cool off tomorow but I will believe it when I see it... I might move the sub over into the corner of the two couches where the ottoman is right now, I just need a longer cable.

Its funny. To the right of the Sub is the door and a closet. I have to open the door on the closet when we are watching movies, it vibrates hellaciously. I opened the door and stood in the closet during the Darla scene and it was insane, I have never felt bass like that except in car audio systems. I just need to figure out a way to watch the TV from the closet now.. I still want to add another sub someday for that insane bass without having to be in the closet.

Have you done a sub crawl yet ? Sub in the listening position, crawl around until you hear the bass you want... then put the sub in that spot. I have never gotten around to doing this myself but I really enjoy making other people feel lazy

Maybe the sub should go in the closet so all the bass would be out in the room ?

After I moved the sub I did crawl around just to see how it sounded. Thats how I found that the bass was stronger by the loveseat. I need a longer cable that would reach the listening position, I think they are regular RCA cables, Give me something to think about. I just want to finish the install of everything. I am tired of wires sticking out and and the surround speakers sitting on makeshift stands. I want it to look good in there, for once. I need a little closure with the HT stuff for awhile.