Room will be app. 30 foot x 40 foot, with 12 foot ceiling height, so we would have 14,400 cubic feet of air to move, maybe a little less. Looking at the following Axiom gear to do this:

4 x M22 for front (2 x left + 2 x right)
2 x VP150 for center (2 x center)
4 x QS8 for surround (2 x surround + 2 x rear surround)
1 x EP600 for bass.

Seating for 48 souls. Screen size is 14 foot x 7 foot. I want to mount the front speakers on the wall. They could all be behind the screen (if using perforated) or top/bottom for center and to the side for left/right, if going with standard non-perf material. Screen will be curved to radius of throw distance (app. 40 feet).

QUESTIONS:

(a) Is the above listed Axiom speaker-line up sufficient for the size of this large room? Each speaker would be powered by 200 Watts of OUTLAW amp.

(b) If not sufficient, how would you change the line-up?

(c) Tower speakers, they have to remain on the ground, right? I mean, they should not be mounted by bracket to the wall?

(d) Any other brand of preamp/processor/amp other than OUTLAW I should look into, to get similar price/performance rewards as with the Axiom loudspeakers?

Thanks!

Others will jump in here, but I think I would be looking at (3) M80s across the front if a perf screen is workable and you don't object to floorstanders. Personally, I don't think there are many bookshelves that would be up to the task of filling that room with that many people!

Not to hijack a thread so early, but has anyone ever "podiumized" a floorstander (like thus):

to allow for better reach in a room with as many people as he's looking at?

Yes. I have a pair of Michaura M665s (very much like the M60) on marble 24" hex shaped pillar things in my office. If the pillar things were 12" tall it would put the tweeters closer to ear level. They sound great, but I'm not sure that mounting towers on stands is the thing to do for your application. It might be better to mount them low and tip them up.

BTW, I have a friend who also has a pair of Michaura M665s driven by some Outlaw 200w monoblocks (and a pair of M22 like M55s in the back). I don't like the sound quality of these amps with these speakers (these speakers use the same drivers as Axiom speakers, but instead of the 1" titanium tweeter, they use the Axiom 3/4" tweeter which was previously used in the M2s, and some other Axiom speakers. It's a great tweeter. My friend also is disappointed with the Outlaw 200w monoblocks. Don't know if the problem is his room, or the Outlaw processor.

I have another friend who uses the same compliment (M665s, M55s, VP100), driven by a Parasound Halo amp, and it sounds great.

Hi Feribaba,

Forget using four M22s for a room that enormous. Get a pair of M80ti's, a couple of VP150s above and below the screen and figure on very possibly adding a second subwoofer.

Don't put the speakers behind the screen unless you are prepared to do equalization to compensate for the losses of the perforated screen. As Mark says, you could mount the M80s on a podium or riser if necessary.

Regards,

Well, I was afraid of that. Of course, a "tower" would work best, but since these are labeled as "floorstanding," I am not at all sure that affixing them to the wall via a pair of Axiom's own FULL METAL BRACKETS, for example, is a doable idea.

A "shelf" speaker is insufficient by itself, and I am not sure if doubling (or even tripling) one of these M22s and VP150s is really the way to go here.

Incidentally, initilly I wanted all front speakers be the in-wall (recessed) type, but I just learned that this way they cannot be directed individually towards the portion of the room & audience where you want them to be directed. Not only that, I would assumke that an individually cabineted speaker of the ame specification will sound 'better' than one of the in-wall type?

I really donlt think that having the speakers sitting on the floor is the way to go for us, though. That is why I am looking to have them (a) wall mounted or (b) recessed in-wall.

RBH has some monster 500 Watt front speakers (also in-wall designs with the same power specs), but I suppose you really should have more than 200 Watts per channel amplificiation to propel one of those, right?

Incidentally, I am looking at pofessional cinema (movie theater) speakers as well for this room by QSC and Pioneer. But these are really "consumer grade" when it comes to sound quality, not to mention the movie threater-grade amps that drive them.

Feribaba,

Using big cinema horns is certainly an option. That's what's used exclusively in evensmall commercial cinemas, because you can get very high SPLs, great dynamics, and you can do it without having to use monster amplifiers. BUT, you have to use careful equalization or the horns will take your ears off. Big EQ'd horn systems can sound really good if the person setting it up knows anything about good sound quality. And that's a big IF.

Most in-wall speakers that are flush to the wall are quite inferior to well designed tower speakers if you're after neutral, uncolored sound. And they are not efficient (sensitive) so you have to use really huge amplifiers.

I don't understand your resistance to using floorstanding main speakers up front.

Regards,

I'll toss in my expieriance, I have about 10,000 cubic feet of air, I would go with three 80s for the front, and dual EP500 or EP600 for subs. If you forsee vvolume levels of 90db and above, I would be checking into seperate amps for the front 80s. When I started pushing five M80s at high levels, I learned I could put multi channel amps into heat protection within 12-18 minutes.
As for the M80s, they are rated at 400 watts each at 4ohms, so they are happy and only sound better with additioanl power for them. This is my opinion from my expieriance with my equipment.

So, here's a Michaura M665 atop a marble stand, a Klipsch LF10 (1648 watt 10" sub with 2 passive subwoofers) atop a Dahlquist PDQ1500 15" sub




My Frankenstein center - Merak with 2 Axiom 6.5" drivers and a de Capo Reference 3a mm silk dome tweeter and cross-over with heavily modified super tweeter. In the rack a Sony TA E9000ES processor, swapped a Pioneer DV 578A SP DVD player in place of the Philips SACD1000 which is out for mods, Anthem PVA 5 amp on bottom shelf of rack.



A second gorgeous Michaura M665 atop marble ped.

2x6spds, I'm not getting the last two pictures. By the way, what finish is on the M665?

High gloss faux Rosewood ... beautiful aren't they?

I think the pix are fixed, let me know if you're not getting them now.

2X6:
What prompted the pedestals?

Without the pedestals the 2x6.5" drivers fire from below desk level. Figured I'd get them up a bit.

I can see the pics now. You're right, that is a beautiful finish.

At the Axiom factory there are two M80s hanging from the wall about 8 feet off the ground and angled down slightly. Typical listening distance is about 30 feet and they sound great.

Another vote for 2 M80s, 1 or 2 VP150s, QS8s and 2 EP500s.

I was going to point that out as well John, and I think there are even more than two, perhaps Amie will read this and give us the exact inventory

Need your house painted 2x6? I am an arteest!

I also have a really long ladder, telescopic pole and various accoutrements to aid in pigment application.

I have a room, 30ft x 30ft x 9ft ceilings combined with a front projector Sanyo Z2 with a 2.35 screen, 51" x 120". Speakers as follows:

2 M60ti's
1 vp150
1 EP500
4 Qs8's

Feribaba, just build a stage below your screen to raise your speakers, not sure why you think you need bookshelves.

Big Will, I am an artist with the steak on the grill ! I look forward to seeing you, I hope soon. Bring your favorite music. Bring your favorite book shelf speakers. Rib eye, bone in, mesquite coals, Webber, beer, French Bread, Onion gravy. Whaddya say?

"Forget using four M22s for a room that enormous. Get a pair of M80ti's, a couple of VP150s above and below the screen and figure on very possibly adding a second subwoofer.
Don't put the speakers behind the screen unless you are prepared to do equalization to compensate for the losses of the perforated screen. As Mark says, you could mount the M80s on a podium or riser if necessary."

Well, first off, I don't really want four speakers doing one single task. Like being a front center speaker. I'd rather get one (or max. two) 400 or 500 Watt ones, and that would be that.

Doubling up the subs would mean a pecuniary outlay of over $3,500, a tad pricey IMHO for some sub-80Hz lows in the room.

Also, I am still not sure if a "floorstanding" speaker can be attached to the wall by metal brackets, or hung from the ceiling, or what? It's not going to be standing on the floor, that's for sure.

In some of the theaters where I listened to sound diseminating from behind perforated screens, I could actually hear the dialog and music fine. Of course, the trade off is that with a perf screen, the dialog comes exactly where the speaking actors are onscreen. With a non-perforated screen, the dialog comes from all other directions (left, right, top, bottom), except for where it is supposed to come from -- exactly behind the actors depicted on the screen.

"Using big cinema horns is certainly an option. That's what's used exclusively in evensmall commercial cinemas, because you can get very high SPLs, great dynamics, and you can do it without having to use monster amplifiers. BUT, you have to use careful equalization or the horns will take your ears off. Big EQ'd horn systems can sound really good if the person setting it up knows anything about good sound quality. And that's a big IF."

Well, I don't even know how to set up "proper equalization," so that, as they say, appears to be that. Also, whereas I should probably know what "SPLs" are, in fact I do not. ;-))

"Most in-wall speakers that are flush to the wall are quite inferior to well designed tower speakers if you're after neutral, uncolored sound. And they are not efficient (sensitive) so you have to use really huge amplifiers."

Except for th Axiom variety, right? Still, you cannot direct these up-down left-right with something like a FULL METRAL BRACKET, right? Well, without listening to speakers first and deciding on which types to get later, there may not be a purchase answer/solution here at all.

"I don't understand your resistance to using floorstanding main speakers up front."

Well, to be honest with you, I have never seen any speakers sitting, laying, or standing on a theater/screening room floor, except for in smaller home theaters. I believe in a cinema setting, even the subs are elevated. But there is one posibility for placement that I just of thought of, Alan, and wanted to run it by you!

And that would be to have the screen a short distance mounted, and then the front edges of the (curved) screen would be extended vertically from side to side and top to bottom by speaker cloth fabric. This way, there could be "floorstanding" speakers mounted on a podium, but this would not be visible from the room, hidden behind the speaker cloth "wall." Similarly, the center speker(s) would alos be hidden from sight, mounted to the wall just behind this black speaker fabric that would stretch basically from the four edges of the screen to the four edges of the front wall of the room.

Do you follow me here, or should I try to give it another jab?

"I would go with three 80s for the front, and dual EP500 or EP600 for subs. If you forsee vvolume levels of 90db and above, I would be checking into seperate amps for the front 80s. When I started pushing five M80s at high levels, I learned I could put multi channel amps into heat protection within 12-18 minutes.

As for the M80s, they are rated at 400 watts each at 4ohms, so they are happy and only sound better with additioanl power for them."

Thank you for that insight, Tharkun. Couple of Qs for ya': is there a small hand-held meter instrument to measure volume in dB in a room? Is that the same as measuring the volume of air that is being pushed from a speaker, or is that something else entirely?

Now, these Axiom 80s, they are front/left FRONT SIDE speakers, or can one (or two) of these be used for FRONT CENTER as well without compromising anything?

Also, I figured there is some difference between "200 Watts/8 Ohms" and "400 Watts/4 Ohms," just could no figure out what yet. But someone did "warn" me to use 8 Ohm or 6 Ohm resistance speakers, but not to "mess" with the 4 Ohm variety. What do you think?

To propel these larger "floorstanding" Axiom 80s, would 200 Watts per channel be enough, or would I need a beefier amp? Also, are you suggesting the use of individual (mono or stereo) amplifiers instead of a "bundled" 5.1 or 7.1 type of amp, like the OUTLAW #7700, to ward off overheating?

Also, there must be something one can do in a separate projection booth to appply direct cooling to these poor amps. Perhaps some sort of "liquid cooling" circulation, as per the tower PC variety?

Thanks!

"At the Axiom factory there are two M80s hanging from the wall about 8 feet off the ground and angled down slightly. Typical listening distance is about 30 feet and they sound great. Another vote for 2 M80s, 1 or 2 VP150s, QS8s and 2 EP500s."

Okay, but read on, bitte:

"I have a room, 30ft x 30ft x 9ft ceilings combined with a front projector Sanyo Z2 with a 2.35 screen, 51" x 120". Speakers as follows:

2 M60ti's
1 vp150
1 EP500
4 Qs8's

Feribaba, just build a stage below your screen to raise your speakers, not sure why you think you need bookshelves."

Okay, why do I think need a "bookshelf" speaker? Someone (at Axiom) might have suggested this to me last week? ;-)) This room size, as noted beforehand, is too large for HT and too small for movie theater, so it is often classified as a "post production screening room." We are talking only seating size here/room capacity, of course, not necessarily application/intended use.

Also, even though I am seeing tons of kind responses, I am still not sure how a "floorstanding" speaker can be "hung" between the floor and the ceiling? Or even if it should be.

In a cinema, the speakers are usually behind the screen, but some could be left/right/bottom as well. And they are either affixed to the back wall, or else (less frequently) mounted on a podium behind the screen. Either way, the idea is "OUT OF SIGHT."

Actually, I had thought, apparently naively, then there even could be some simple formula to calculate total and perhaps individual channel wattage requirements based on room size and room volume (app. 14.4k cu.ft. in this instance). Apparently, there is not, it is mostly a "hit or miss" game.

Perhaps there is some volume or similar handheld meter that I can get (Radio Shack??) that would give me a quick training. For example, by going to the local cinema and doing some measurements at various seats of the auditorium. Like footlambert mesaurement via a spot meter for getting that magic 16-20-25 ft.L. number prescribed by SMPTE.

Hopefully, I would not be tossed out for intellectual copyright violation in doing such a "live" measurement! ;-))

You have several questions and I'll be happy to give you my experience with my system, I do have a few questions that may aid me in a reply, would appreciate your answers.

1) Is this system for a room in your house, or is this more of a commercial application ? (48 people has me courious)

2) Do you have a ball park estimate or budget amount you are working with ?

3) You seem to be very knowledgeable on parts, but some of the basic stuff like SPL meters and wattage/ohm specifications of amps/speakers you seem to be lacking expierance with that. Do you have experience with trying to put a system together for such a large area ?

Dennis

No offense intended, as I said, I will gladly help in any way I can, but having more information from you will be of help. As I'm a bit confused as to exactly what you are attempting to put together here.

>>Okay, why do I think need a "bookshelf" speaker? Someone (at Axiom) might have suggested this to me last week? ;-))

>>Also, even though I am seeing tons of kind responses, I am still not sure how a "floorstanding" speaker can be "hung" between the floor and the ceiling? Or even if it should be.

There's a big difference between what is commonly called a "floorstanding speaker" (a generic term meaning "a big speaker, big enough that it doesn't need a stand in most applications") and "a speaker placed on the floor". You have a bigger room and a higher audience so raising the speakers seems appropriate, but they would still be referred to as "floorstanding speakers" by many even if they were floating 3 feet in the air suspended by pixie dust

>>This room size, as noted beforehand, is too large for HT and too small for movie theater, so it is often classified as a "post production screening room." We are talking only seating size here/room capacity, of course, not necessarily application/intended use.

We would call it a "big-ass home theater"

Seriously, there are a number of 30x40 home theaters with fairly large seating capacity. No problem there...

>>In a cinema, the speakers are usually behind the screen, but some could be left/right/bottom as well. And they are either affixed to the back wall, or else (less frequently) mounted on a podium behind the screen. Either way, the idea is "OUT OF SIGHT."

Out of sight is certainly doable -- placing the speakers behind an acoustically transparent curtain is not unusual, although these days most people just leave the speakers exposed 'cause they look nice and are fun to show off.

>>Actually, I had thought, apparently naively, then there even could be some simple formula to calculate total and perhaps individual channel wattage requirements based on room size and room volume (app. 14.4k cu.ft. in this instance). Apparently, there is not, it is mostly a "hit or miss" game.

There are formulas but (a) they get pretty complex, (b) they have to also include speaker sensitivity (how loud they play with a 1 watt input), room dimensions (not just volume; reflections of walls make a big difference), room construction (what the walls, floor and ceiling are made of; how they are angled, what is behind the covering), the range of angles you need to cover (function of seating layout), content (how loud the peaks are relative to normal volumes in the movies you will be showing, are you compressing or expanding the audio levels (making peaks quieter or louder respectively) etc...

>>Perhaps there is some volume or similar handheld meter that I can get (Radio Shack??) that would give me a quick training. For example, by going to the local cinema and doing some measurements at various seats of the auditorium. Like footlambert mesaurement via a spot meter for getting that magic 16-20-25 ft.L. number prescribed by SMPTE.

Yep, that's an SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter. About $40 at Radio Shack -- that's where we normally go. If you are in Canada we're not sure if they are still available since RS has become The Source.

>>Hopefully, I would not be tossed out for intellectual copyright violation in doing such a "live" measurement! ;-))

No, but if you run into a brain-dead usher who doesn't know the difference between an SPL meter and a video camera you might have a difficult time

Screening rooms are normally painted black, right?

Black speakers will almost disappear into that sort of background, and with the lights off, no one is the wiser.

I also am inquisitive, is this for a commercial setup?