Possible upgrade m22 to v60

Posted by: sheburon

Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/12/12 02:57 PM

Hello everyone, just wanted to get your thoughts on a potential upgrade here. I currently have the M22 v3 bookshelf speakers in my 14' x 15' listening space (the room itself is 14' x 22', but the furniture is 14' x 15') and I think they're fantastic. The detail is wonderful and I love their colorless presentation. I'm looking to upgrade though, particularly to achieve more soundstage. I have a great subwoofer already, so I am not very concerned about bass below 60 Hz. I would, however, enjoy a cleaner crossover (right now it's hard to ignore the jump from the M22s to the sub). I don't have a ton of room to vary speaker placement. My M22s are about 6' apart and about 10' from the listening position. They are about 12" from the wall. I could go at most about 1' in either direction sideways and not much further away from the wall. I'm looking at the M60 v3 as a candidate. Can anyone comment on this potential upgrade?
Posted by: 2x6spds

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/12/12 05:21 PM

Sheburon, I think you'll find that a book shelf speaker will give you better imaging and sound stage than a floor stander with a more complicated cross-over.

M22s and a good sub are a tough to top combination.

My office system has a pair of Michaura M665s (same 6.5" and 5.25" drivers as the M60/M80 and same 0.75" titanium tweeter as the old M1 and M0 speakers), VP150 center, Dahlquist 15" subwoofer, a pair of Mission 77ds side surround speakers. My office is pretty small, about 14 x 17. That system pressurizes my office pretty spectacularly.

So, if it is a matter of volume and bass slam which appears to be coming from a wall of sound in front or side surrounds, then go with the M60s.

Bottom line, M60s are bigger and will make you feel better. But, a pair of bookshelf speakers and a good sub may be better for 2 channel (2.1) music.
Posted by: Wid

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/12/12 05:40 PM


How do you have them set up and what sub do you run?
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/12/12 09:35 PM

I will add this question, do you have the M22s and sub properly calibrated? I have compared my M22s w/ PB13 Ultra sub compared with M60s and thre is very little difference. I suspect your soundstage issue might be due to the 6' spacing between the M22s and your listening position of 10'. The speakers should be spaced apart as close to the same distance you are listening to them. You could also try adjusting the toe-in or out of the M22s to see if that helps.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/12/12 10:12 PM

Sheb,welcome. There's no good reason to expect "more soundstage" from the M60. The same mid-range and tweeters are used and the dispersion in the directional mid and upper frequencies would be essentially identical. For a somewhat wider soundstage you should separate the speakers wider, to at least the 8' you mention as being possible.

As to the sub/M22 crossover, if you have a "great" sub there should certainly be no "jump" with an 80Hz crossover. There's none with my M22s and EP500; the crossover is entirely smooth. The M22s are strong to below 80Hz and any decent sub would be good to above 80Hz.

So, there doesn't appear to be anything supporting the M60s as an actual "upgrade" from what you've described.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/12/12 10:21 PM

Hmmm. I guess my VP160 didn't add anything into the equation when I added it to my M22's. WRONG! I now hear more of the mid bass that I was missing in certain concerts, like Police Certifiable, especially when I have the cross-over set to 50hz.

Theoretically it shouldn't make a difference, but my ears say otherwise. Small differences do make a difference.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/13/12 08:18 AM

Hey Brian, I believe they were talking about a strictly stereo plus sub environment. I don't see where anyone said that adding a center would or would not change things for him. That would be a whole other discussion. A good discussion, but different.

I would also be curious to know what sub you are using and how hot it is running. My EP500 does blend nicely with my M60s but from the specs and what I have heard of M22s, I see no reason why it would not blend equally as well with those.

Now in contrast, I tried using an old Sony HTIB subwoofer that I had left over with a second set of M60s in another room. Even though it was less powerful, by the time you turned it up loud enough to make a difference in this large room with M60s, it sounded way too boomy. Although it could play loud enough for this very large space, it was far from musically satisfying and I removed it altogether.

I could see how a similar scenario might lead you to believe that there is a "gap" between the two. It may not be a gap. It may just be that you need to calibrate your sub to match or that it plays a bit more 'boomy' than the detailed M22s.
Posted by: sheburon

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/13/12 08:35 AM

Thanks for the replies. I have the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus and have my crossover set to 60 Hz. I think part of the reason I notice the crossover is not because of a different in volume or tone, but because of a difference in SPL. If I turn the sub up any more the pressure becomes a tad too high for my taste and if I turn it down more I lose volume. This is most evident on jazz recordings where the double bass player makes runs up and down. The transition of the actual tone and volume is fantastic, but I think with larger woofer drivers from a floorstanding speaker, the difference in SPL will be more smooth as well.

I've experimented a little with the placement of the M22s in the past, and toeing them in did help. I will try to place them wider and see what I find.

Thanks!
Posted by: alan

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/13/12 09:20 AM

Hi sheburon,

With the M22s, you should be using an 80-Hz crossover frequency to the subwoofer; 60 Hz is too low a setting.

Regards,

Alan
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/13/12 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Murph
Hey Brian, I believe they were talking about a strictly stereo plus sub environment. I don't see where anyone said that adding a center would or would not change things for him. That would be a whole other discussion. A good discussion, but different.


Not upgraded from a stereo environment, but from 3.1 to 3.1. My last center channel was a VP150. Sub is EP350. EDIT: My prior point, but, unstressed, was if I experienced a change by swapping the VP150 for a VP160, then it would stand to reason that you would also hear a similar change by swapping the M22's for M60's.

Sonically, 80hz sounds the best, but I like the added bass effect sometimes by lowering it to 50hz. 2 examples is the movie Tron Legacy, and the concert Police Certifiable.

Pioneer with it's 6 storage areas for sound doesn't store the crossover point. You have to choose one of the 6 and a crossover. Too bad they didn't make it easy to have, say, #1 as 80hz, and #2 as 50hz, etc. The way it is, you have to dig several layers deep in the menus just to find and change it.
Posted by: Wid

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/13/12 10:11 AM


Has the system been calibrated?
Posted by: FireGuy

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/13/12 08:28 PM

Alan - I run the same sub (Outlaw LFM1 +)with my M22's and have found after multiple crossover experiments the 60Hz works best for my environment. I have always read to go ahead and test your setting parameters and finalize on the ones that you feel are optimum. Is there an element I've missed that would dictate a move back to the 80Hz?
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/13/12 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: FireGuy
Alan - I run the same sub (Outlaw LFM1 +)with my M22's and have found after multiple crossover experiments the 60Hz works best for my environment.

That's likely the key.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/13/12 11:41 PM

Sheb, a difference in SPL is a difference in volume. If by "jump" you meant a notable volume variance, then by definition the speaker/sub levels aren't properly calibrated. If you've been attempting to do this by ear to "taste", it wouldn't be surprising; our ears are great for enjoying music, but for measuring they suck.

Proper calibration can best be done with one of the auto-calibration systems many modern HT receivers have. A second possibility would be using an SPL meter such as the digital RadioShack unit. The most common problem is setting the sub level too loud. The sub shouldn't be heard as a separate entity, but rather that it isn't there and the speakers are putting out more bass. I'd hazard a guess that the point where you say that you "lose volume" is closer to the correct one.
Posted by: 2x6spds

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 12:03 AM

I set the cross-over at 100Hz for my M22s. Big Velodyne. Love the combo.
Posted by: Wid

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 12:20 AM


I think with a higher crossover point and making sure the system is calibrated the OP would be pleased with his existing system.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 10:06 PM

Me, I remember the cube amp. I always liked the idea of Carver.

Bob Carver, it seemed, had that ability to look at a problem and find a path to a solution that no one else had traveled.

Might we be looking at the same thing here with the new M100?
Posted by: Wid

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 10:19 PM


Mark, wrong thread ?
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 10:31 PM

Mark posts from another dimension anyway. . . .
Posted by: Wid

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 10:32 PM


It must be his room LOL
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 10:40 PM

LOL!!
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 11:29 PM

Mark's room isn't a square, it's a hypercube.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/14/12 11:55 PM

No. It's timecube.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/15/12 05:02 AM

Yeah. Wrong thread. Just apply whatever I posted after whatever YOU posted about Carver, Rick. I think. grin
Posted by: sheburon

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/15/12 08:42 AM

Thanks all.

I did not know that volume and SPL were inseparable. You're probably right then, I may just be setting my sub a bit too high. It doesn't help that on many recordings the bass is at absurdly high levels. I can re-evaluate the crossover then, too.

It's not that the soundstage is bad with the M22s, I was just wondering if moving to a more expensive model would increase it, that's all. I figured that extra money had to go to something smile I was just curious if it was more than bass extension.

Thanks again.
Posted by: alan

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 03/15/12 02:07 PM

Hi FireGuy,

The 80-Hz suggestion for a crossover frequency for the M22s to the subwoofer is a guideline; however, the rationale for that frequency is to avoid a "hole" (suck-out) in the bass response as it transitions from the M22 to the subwoofer. If you look carefully at the NRC measurements of the M22's bass output in the anechoic chamber here. . .
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/axiom_m22ti_se/

... you'll note that the bass output remains quite linear to 80 Hz then drops dramatically so it's more than 12 dB down at 60 Hz (that means the bass output is about "half as loud" as the output at 80 Hz). By using the 80-Hz setting for the M22s, you can be reasonably certain that your subwoofer's response will be reasonably linear to 80 Hz and higher, hence the slope of the subwoofer's bass output will coincide nicely with the M22's response at 80 Hz.

That's the theory. Of course, if you figure in some room gain and allow for subwoofer placement and standing waves, you may find using a lower or higher crossover frequency for the M22s will work better in your situation.

Regards,
Alan
Posted by: wilwom

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 05/17/12 06:43 PM

Raising the crossover to 80Hz will take stress off the M22s and thus should improve their soundstage.

Originally Posted By: sheburon
Thanks all.

It's not that the soundstage is bad with the M22s, I was just wondering if moving to a more expensive model would increase it, that's all. I figured that extra money had to go to something smile I was just curious if it was more than bass extension.

Thanks again.

Posted by: JLJ

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 05/17/12 09:45 PM

I went from M22's to M60's for music listening and what a difference! 22's for movies where great but wait until the 60's and you know you made the right choice.
Posted by: axiom_man

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 10/02/12 09:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Murph
Hey Brian, I believe they were talking about a strictly stereo plus sub environment. I don't see where anyone said that adding a center would or would not change things for him. That would be a whole other discussion. A good discussion, but different.

I would also be curious to know what sub you are using and how hot it is running. My EP500 does blend nicely with my M60s but from the specs and what I have heard of M22s, I see no reason why it would not blend equally as well with those.

Now in contrast, I tried using an old Sony HTIB subwoofer that I had left over with a second set of M60s in another room. Even though it was less powerful, by the time you turned it up loud enough to make a difference in this large room with M60s, it sounded way too boomy. Although it could play loud enough for this very large space, it was far from musically satisfying and I removed it altogether.

I could see how a similar scenario might lead you to believe that there is a "gap" between the two. It may not be a gap. It may just be that you need to calibrate your sub to match or that it plays a bit more 'boomy' than the detailed M22s.


Geez, what version of the M60's do you have ?

I may have to take a trip over to the Island with my M22 and we can do some comparison's. wink
Posted by: Murph

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 10/02/12 09:59 AM

Not sure I understand why you mentioned the "Geez." My comments were not really targeting the M60s. I was inferring that the smaller Sony sub could not play 'cleanly' at levels that matched the M60s for the room size. Not if you needed any significant volume anyway. It's just a 10" HTIB sub. It sounded decent in my old cottage when I sat 6' from it but it wasn't made for the space I tried it in above.

To answer though, I think they are ver. 2.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 10/02/12 10:03 AM

Whoops,

I just read another thread where you are just now trying out the M22s. I now realize that is probably what you are talking about.

And yes, a comparison would be fun.
Posted by: axiom_man

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 10/02/12 12:50 PM

Just wondering what Ver. I want to hear the M60's see how much of a difference it would be. I am planing a trip to Ontario this summer, may just venture north before I buy or upgrade.

Wasn't really referring to anything you posted other than your a 5 hr drive away
Posted by: Murph

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 10/03/12 07:31 AM

Well, you are certainly welcome to come hear them any time.

I have pair in a 5.1 setup in a basic movie room and another in a larger cathedral style living area. There is quiet a difference in sound between the two areas. I've come to enjoy sitting in the sweet spot in the big open room the most for serious music listening. The room shape just seems to add a little something. Although I'll move downstairs to work the surrounds & the EP500 if watching a concert DVD.
Posted by: axiom_man

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60 - 10/04/12 08:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Murph
Whoops,

I just read another thread where you are just now trying out the M22s. I now realize that is probably what you are talking about.

And yes, a comparison would be fun.


Yes, wasn't being critical or sarcastic.