Subwoofer Advice

Posted by: rdwarn

Subwoofer Advice - 01/20/04 12:31 PM

I've read enough on the Axiom boards to know that many highly recommend the HSU subs. I've been to their site and saw that they have their STF-1 on sale for $299 which seems really good. Anyone have a STF-1?
Would a HSU sub sound significantly better then a KLH sub? I also found a KLH E-10 sub for a really good price.
*Subs are going to be matched with a pair of M60's
Posted by: spiffnme

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/20/04 01:20 PM

The Hsu will soundly trounce any sub made by KLH.
Posted by: ravi_singh

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/22/04 10:35 PM

KLH or HSU...

you don't even have to think about that. It's like deciding between Mercedes or Toyota

Take the HSU
Posted by: spiffnme

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 09:27 AM

Audi vs Geo...
Posted by: FordPrefect

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 10:37 AM

SVS
Posted by: spiffnme

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 02:46 PM

Yeah, SVS would kill the KLH as well. I still prefer Hsu though.
Posted by: WhatFurrer

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 03:09 PM

The SVS 20-39 PC+ I have now scared the sub that came with the HTIB I have so severely that it now resides across the street...

Seriously, the difference between the two was like DAY and NIGHT...

I'm sold on SVS...

WhatFurrer
Posted by: rdwarn

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 03:14 PM

Because of my limited budget and lack of patience to save money I'm going to buy a HSU STF-1. I'm buying the sub primarily for music...I listed music vs. HT 75:25. From what I've read, even though the STF-1 is small it's still fairly potent and should blend in well with my M60's. Would anybody agree with my logic? Does anyone have any experience with the STF-1?
Posted by: rdwarn

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 03:58 PM

Hey! I have a Toyota...but I would much prefer a Mercedes!
Posted by: curtis

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 04:17 PM

I have heard the STF-1...and for a little guy it is potent.

In its operating frequency range, I am told, that it is almost as loud as the STF-2/VTF-2.

Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 05:40 PM

Just out of curiosity, why do you prefer the Hsus? Have you heard the SVSs? Not to start a flame war or anything, just curious.
Posted by: spiffnme

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 06:22 PM

It's mostly the way the companies handle themselves online. I've read to many things written by SVS badmouthing their competition. Hsu has always stayed above the fray and let their subs do the talking. (In my experience anyway. I've by no means read every thread on every board regarding subs.)

One other thing that kinda bugs me (and honestly it really shouldn't) is that SVS seems to simply take Hsu design ideas, make a bigger version, and then brag that their is bigger. Like I said, why should I care?

Finally, I know of only two instances in which someone has done a side-by-side comparison, and in both cases the Hsu was preferred. Alas, I've not had the chance to do my own side-by-side comparison. You'd have to do some digging, but an Axiom board member some time ago posted a quick note about their own experience.

This by NO means is to say SVS doesn't make a great sub! Compared to most subs out there I'm sure SVS blows them away. I think the point is that SVS and Hsu both are so far ahead of the competion, there's really no reason to buy something else. Most people who swear by "their" sub, whether it be SVS or Hsu, can only compare it to what they had before. And regardless of what that was, their new SVS or Hsu is going to kick it's butt.

Does that make any sense?
Posted by: willscary

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 06:52 PM

Spiff, I usually enjoy reading your posts, and generally agree with you. Here, however, I do not.

I have heard Hsu subs, and for the same price, prefer the SVS. The Hsu subs are great, but as I said, at the same price point, my feeling is that the SVS outperforms it. We all have our own opinions, and although mine may be right for me, it may not be for you. You may indeed find the Hsu to be better, and that is fine. When you say that Tom or Ron take pot shots at other subs, cutting them down, I disagree. They will tell you that there are other great subs out there, but at a price point they feel they have a better product. Then they cite extension, output, and distortion figures to support their claims. The funny thing is, many others agree. John Johnson says there is NO better sub other than DIY subs for the price of an SVS 25-31PCi.

As for SVS taking the Hsu design...I remember when Hsu first introduced the cylinder sub. It was considered a huge development. It is a naturally strong, yet inexpensive enclosure. That is why many, many DIY subs are created using this design. The guys at SVS are DIY guys who decided that they could make money with their "home builts" and did so. The problem is, if you create a product at a certain price point, and it is inferior to a well-known brand, who is going to buy it? They have to be bigger, louder, deeper than Hsu at the same price, or they wouldn't be competitive.

This isn't a flame war, and as I said, I almost always like your posts. I only want to voice my opinion that SVS is not the corrupt blaspheming company who spreads lies and untruths about your beloved Hsu. While you may disagree with their assessment of competing products, I am quite sure they are honest about what theirs will do. The reason I believe this? Impartial reviews from Nousaine and Johnson, along with my own measurements between my buddies Hsu and my 16-46PCi. We both like both subs, and we both agree that the SVS is slightly deeper. As for being strained or unmusical, they both sound very good at our listening levels. He is very happy with his, as I am with mine.
Posted by: Raindance

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 06:58 PM

I think they're both great companies- albeit both their message boards have a sort of 'slant' that I don't see at Axiom's.

It'd be great if they aknowledged each other, but that runs into the prisoner's dillemma.
Posted by: spiffnme

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 07:07 PM

No flames intended on my part either. I tried to go out of my way to say that SVS makes a great sub.

In reply to:

...along with my own measurements between my buddies Hsu and my 16-46PCi




I'm curious which Hsu you compared to.

In reply to:

I only want to voice my opinion that SVS is not the corrupt blaspheming company who spreads lies and untruths about your beloved Hsu.




If it seemed that I was suggesting that, I appologize. The things I've read were simply more along the lines of "Ours is better, theirs sucks" type of things. No outright lies, and such. Just some, what I'd consider, juvenile behavior.

The bottom line is, if you need a new sub, you're not likely to be disapointed in either SVS or Hsu.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 07:39 PM

I'm shopping for a sub. Like most such endeavours, price is a factor. I'm settled on a down-firing, box sub. I had been tending toward a STF-2 or VTF-2, mostly because they are $100-200 less than the PB1-ISD.

But now, I'm not so sure. I've heard none of these products, so I am clearly just talking out my vortex port here.

The recent and (IMO) significant problems Hsu has had launching the STF line are really giving me pause. QA has been poor, customer service (from the looks of the boards there) has been marginal. They seem to be bungling the whole business, while blaming the production problems on the factory in China. Plus, they always seem to have inventory problems. They obviously have relationship issues with CompUSA, and they are in joint development with BIC - not exactly impressive company to me. The overall impression, to me, is one of wasting technological prowess by business ineptitude.

Now, please understand, I don't want to bash Hsu. I don't own one, and Hsu owners like Craig always provide compelling, impassioned reviews - opinions that I believe and trust. But I am beginning to wonder whether it would be a prudent investment for me to spend a little more on the SVS to get a larger woofer and more powerful amp from a more vertically-integrated company.

Does anybody here have experience with the SVS box subs?


Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 07:43 PM

Peter's got one. I'm pretty impressed with the thing from what I've heard of it, and it blends really well with his M22s.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 08:04 PM

tom,

My SVS PS1-ISD is an incredible sub. Everything you can reasponably ask a sub to do is there in spades: depth, punch, speed, wow-factor, musicality, knick-knack-knocking, etc.

If you care about this sort of thing, SVS subs are designed and built in the US (Ohio, to be precise). The drivers are built according to SVS spec by TC Sounds in San Diego.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 08:19 PM

Thank you, Peter. That is helpful.

You probably know I already care about that stuff. Periodically, I try to temper my made-in-USA, I-belong-to-and-work-for-a-labor-union diatribes for the international and PC among us.

How does the dog feel about the sub?
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 10:26 PM

She doesn't seem to mind it all that much with most of the music I play, but when I was playing Medeski, Martin & Wood's Uninvisible the other day, she got the nervous shakes when Retirement Song (track 6) came on. It contains copious amounts of deep bass. She snuck off the couch and hid in the bedroom until I was finished.
Posted by: willscary

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 10:35 PM

Spiff, I'd have to call him and check, but I believe his Hsu is a 1225HO. Does that sound correct? He told me he paid $579 and I think he bought it in 2000. The only reason I remember the price is that I paid $20 more for my 16-46PCi in the summer of 2002 ($599 during the summer sale).

His is skinny compared to mine. He bought it with a factory amp. It was either 150 watts or 200 watts. His sounded very good but did not measure as deep and definitely not as loud. It was very musical, as is my SVS.

As for the "ours is great, theirs sucks" deal...I guess I have heard that only when some goof comes onto a forum cutting SVS and saying that their $300 Asian 100w sub runs circles around muddy, boomy SVS subs.

Either brand will be great, and I know you will give the nod to Hsu, but I definitely lean to SVS.



Posted by: willscary

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 10:37 PM

By the way, I have heard very good things about the SVS box subs, but I have only heard the cylinders.
Posted by: spiffnme

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 10:47 PM

Yep, it was probably the TN-1225. That model is now discontinued.

The TN-1220 is now their only cylinder model. (And more closely comparable to the SVS 16-46PCi)

Yes...in the end, you really can't go wrong with either company.
Posted by: willscary

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 11:05 PM

yup, that looks like it. The other thing with it was the driver. I think it was on top instead of the bottom, because when he brought it in the house and I grabbed it, it struck me as strange. I was worried it would be top heavy and fall over (it didn't!)
Posted by: willscary

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 11:07 PM

As far as comparable I go back to my original context. Can the newer model be had for the same price as the 16-46PCi? And is it powered for that price? (my biddy's had a seperate amp)(from Hsu)
Posted by: curtis

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 11:09 PM

Both great sub companies. It will come down to what you expect from a sub.

When I bought a 20-39PC+ to compare to my VTF-3, it was pretty clear that the Hsu was cleaner, tighter and more articulate. For HT, the SVS had more boom.

I would like to see what the new VTF-3MKII can do with the more powerful.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/23/04 11:19 PM

sushi would whip us all into shape by telling us about the mysterious "q" factor
Posted by: jasonw1701

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/24/04 12:43 AM

spiffnme wrote:
"I've read to many things written by SVS badmouthing their competition."

I'm assuming you have some proof to back up this statement.

Jason
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/24/04 02:28 AM

Tom
If my experience can lend any solice to you, i suggest the following:
Buy a product tried and true, one that has been tested.
Weigh that along with "overall" customer service and product performance, then decide.
Yes the newer Hsu subs have had issues, but other models have been proven solid.
Don't give up so easily.
Debate debate.

Debate out loud so we can all hear your thoughts through the process. It helps so many others to decide along the way.
Never neglect the Axiom route though people.
They do still make a solid subwoofer in a PLETHORA of finishes.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/24/04 02:38 AM

Medeski, Martin and Woods.
My wife loves it.
Had it over dinner at our wedding.
Just thought i'd throw that in there.
Posted by: chesseroo

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/24/04 02:45 AM

In reply to:

When I bought a 20-39PC+ to compare to my VTF-3, it was pretty clear that the Hsu was cleaner, tighter and more articulate.
For HT, the SVS had more boom.


Is this to be expected from a cylindrical vs. a box design?
Acoustics of a long tube vs. a confined box?
Internal areas?
Venting?
Sound dispersion characteristics given the physics of the 2 different enclosures?
Posted by: spiffnme

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/24/04 02:49 AM

Nope...the 1225 may have been comparable price wise, but the 1220HO is indeed more expensive. Though I still have to admit, my dream setup is dual 1220's in a dedicated HT room. *sigh* ...someday.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Subwoofer Advice - 01/24/04 02:26 PM

In reply to:

Just thought i'd throw that in there.


Again?