I'm going to be moving in a few months and so some changes will made to the stereo. I plan to use the components of this current system (Nad C541i) for a two channel setup but I want to upgrade to an integrated amp from an older Kenwood receiver to something with better overall quality of sound. I'm not sure yet if I'm going to use my M22's for the two channel setup so I need to keep my options open, but I do plan to use my EP125 so I need a pre-out for the sub. I wanted to run these ideas by you all to get some feedback about the following options since I know that opinions on the boards are widely valued. Here's the integrated amp options:

1. Nad C370 - I've read a lot and know that Nad is well
known for lots of good power output so this would be
the most versatile option. Especially if I find a
really good deal on some Maggies (MG12's).

2. Antique Sound Lab AQ 1003 DT - I'm also curious about
tube amps and if it's truly a sound that I would
prefer to a good SS. I tend to listen to more mellow
music (classical, jazz, and mellow rock) when I'm
at home so I think that I might enjoy the warmth of a
good tube stereo setup. Plus I could always listen
to things in stereo on my planned multichannel setup.
The problem is that I don't know how much power i
really need. Especially if I'm might be powering
Maggies. I don't blast my music and I prefer levels
that are immersive and not shaking the walls. I know
that on my Kenwood the volume knob never goes above
10 o'clock. On the other hand I might end up using my
M22's since this would be in more of a bedroom setup
and the Maggies might be overkill in a room that small.

Anyway, I'm totally open to any other options that you might want to suggest and sorry if the post was too long.

Thanks,
SpockTheater

Hello SpockTheater

I've been thinking about your post for a while - since no one else has responded, here're my thoughts.

I don't know the NAD amp, but they're well thought of around here for solid state.

I had a 5 watt per channel Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT sourced by an Ah! 4000 CDP (tube output CDP). I used it with a pair of M3Tis and was absolutely floored by the goodness of this combination. I tried it with a pair of M22s and did not like it. At the time, I thought there was something wrong with the M22s, but since I've considered the possibility that the M22s just didn't get along with the low powered amp as well as the M3s did. I also used a pair of Michaura M55s which are similar to the M22s in that they have a pair of 5.25" drivers but use a 3/4" titanium tweeter instead of the 1" unit. The M55s sounded even better than the M3s (in most but not all ways - the M3s did a better job of reproducing Stan Getz's horn).

Brings me to the ASL AQ 1001 and 1003. I demoed one of them at Jeff's Sound Values down near San Diego with a pair of BC Acoustique Tibre speakers. Sounded like crap. Problem is, I don't know whether I was listening to a 1001 or a 1003. That's why I haven't replied until now.

Anyway, when I bought the MG S1 15DT from Jeffs, I auditioned that amp with the Acoustiques and the combination was incredibly good. I don't know if there was a problem with the amp (1001 or 1003) or whether the amp just didn't sound as good as the SET S1 15DT.

I just checked the ASL website and saw that the 1003 is not a SET design, so I thought maybe that was what I listened to most recently. In any event, I'd go with a SET design with 15 or more watts per channel if I were going to match it with the M22s. Bottom line, for me, I wouldn't get a solid state amp for 2 channel listening. I'd get a SET tube amp. OR I'd take a shot with a pure digital Flying Mole amp.

I was starting to wonder if anyone was going to reply since there's almost 100 views on this thread. Thanks for the tips. I'll admit that my knowledge of tube amps is somewhat limited. I've never actually heard one for stereo, but I've heard the difference between SS and tube guitar amps and there is DEFINATELY a difference in sound. Tubes just sound more relaxed and full. My only question is what makes the SET (Single Ended Triode for those who might be reading this thread) tube amps the best option. I would suspect maybe more efficiency, but I'm only guessing. Anyway, thanks for the advice and it will help when I decide what I'm going to do.

SpockTheater

I've had the pleasure of auditioning some pretty fancy amps including some tube amps which cost more than a nice car. Let me start by saying that I've heard some beautiful music reproduced by solid state amps, but certain tube amps sound better - my opinion, there are folks on this board who laugh at the idea. Anyway, I have no idea about how these things work, turn them on, wait a minute while the glass bottles start to glow and then music comes out the speakers. As to solid state, I have even less of an idea - so take what I say with much salt.

From my experience, SET amps and amps which use 300B type tubes sound the best. Price is not the determinative factor. I've heard sub $1000 amps which sound better than >$10,000 monoblocks. You may want to schlepp your speakers down to a snotty high end audio shop (probably better to ask first) and audition their tube stuff.

You may want to talk to the folks at Divertech http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html distributors of ASL magical amps in NA and ask them which amp is like the MG S1 15DT but puts out more power in SET mode.

You may consider contacting Kevin at Upscale Audio, knowledgeable and pleasant, he sells ASL and other stuff as well - loves music and loves his tube toys. He can give you some good advice. http://www.upscaleaudio.com/

Spock:

I use the NAD C540 and C370. They are fine sounding with the M80s, but could be a bit bright on the top end (I blame this on the amplifier section of the integrated). You can improve the sound of the amp quite a bit by replacing the factory jumpers that connects the pre-pro with proper interconnects (but that probably represents an additional outlay of a hundred dollars).

I tried M22s with the combo and it sounded very poor -- the speakers sounded small, weak and thin. A tube amp maybe a better solution in this case. However, if you are buying NAD beware of the QC problems.

Good luck!

I have seen some QC issues and the "cheap" jumpers come up on www.audioreview.com, but I guess that's what the warranty is for. Anyway, I'm curious to know if you are using a sub with the M80's. I'm expecting that you aren't. Also, when you tested the M22's and the C370, did you use a sub to fill in the lower bass? In my current setup, I'm using the M22's and an EP125 and even with an old Kenwood receiver they don't sound weak or thin, but they do need the sub.

I dont think there are many QC issues with the NAD amps, there have been issues with cd players in the past but those have since been resolved. And this is coming from someone who has had mine in for service but i would buy it again.

The cheap jumpers are no worse than any other things you would find on another brand. theyre just your basic U shaped metal jumpers. I dont believe that changing the jumpers will dramatically make the sound better, maybe a little if your lucky.

I would say that the main "flaws" in the amp are within the pre-amp section. I have recently stopped using the nad's preamp section and replaced it with a diy tube preamp,.. which cost me about $250 total. The sound has improved quite a bit and the upgrade was definetly worth it.

I have now heard that tube magic people always rave about and i too am hooked.

Bottom line is the NAD C370 is a great amp, its got more than enough power and sounds very good with the M80's.

Spock:

No sub with the M80s -- they are used strictly for 2 channel music in a smallish listening area, and I listen primarily to classical (that means I'm not a bass freak). The bass from the M80s are sufficient for pipeorgan or percussions from very large orchestral pieces.

I used a Deftech sub when I tried out the M22s. I believe I might have posted a review here somewhere. I don't know if "weak or thin" are the proper words to use, but the sound is definitely not "real". It feels like I'm listening to my MD player (inferior sound compared to CDs) through some cheap headphones ...

Maybe the M80s are THAT good!

Haoleb...I have a question for you. I am thinking that your suggestion of using a tube preamp is a good and affordable idea. I am just curious to how you have that combination connected. Also, is there any way that I could use my EP125 to fill in the low end that the M22's don't reach? Thanks guys for all of your help.

to seperate the preamp and power amp sections of the NAD all you have to do is take out the jumpers in the back.

As it stands now i have the interconnects from my cdp going into the tube preamp (along with my two other sources) and then the preamp output from the tube deal going into the power amp inputs of the NAD.


If you wanted to get something like the Foreplay, which is a kit that you have to build yourself, you would need to add a second set of outputs for the sub. Just as long as you have TWO sets of outputs from your preamp you can hook the sub up.

Hopefully that wasnt too confusing. If you owned the nad you would know exactly what im talking about. Now of course if you were really serious about using a tube pre, then you would want to buy the C270 since its just a power amp and can be had for a bit cheaper.

I see. Does that also mean that all of your volume control is done from the tube preamp? Or can you still use the remote for your C370? Also, you now have me interested in those tube kits. How difficult are they to put together and how expensive would one with TWO outs be? Do you have a link you can point me to? Oh and yes, I've thought about the C270 option, but I don't know if I want to give up the luxury of a remote control. I guess we're all spoiled by those things. Sorry for all the questions, but you really sparked my interest in a tube preamp.

when you bypass the NAD's preamp you give up everything except the a and b speaker switching. I too thought i would hate not having the remote anymore but really, its not that bad. you find a volume level and keep it there.

The kit i built is called the Foreplay put out by the Bottlehead company, the stock kit costs 150 dollars but if you want to do any of the upgrades (which you should) its more. They are fairly simple to build if you have a basic electronics knowledge and can solder, and have patience.

If you want two outputs you would just have to do some modding to the original circuit and drill a couple more holes and stuff, all the instructions are on bottleheads website. Go to their forums and browse around etc..

It IS a nice option of having a preamp available, which makes the 370 a very nice amp, even if your not plannng to use the pre section.

Heres the link to Bottleheads website.

www.bottlehead.com

In reply to:

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www.bottlehead.com

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/engage Crocodile Dundee voice

"That's not a link. THIS -- http://www.bottlehead.com -- is a link!"

Aaa! You forgot to disengage! Noe woe'll aull bae talkin' loike Austraalians!'