Hi
I am new here and very interested in buying the M60ti. I want to know of your experiences with Factory Outlet buying. Is there a chance I may get second rate quality or is it only cosmetic?
Also, how is the bass with these speakers? I am not looking for a boom box but I do want to eliminate my sub from music listening as I have a NAD 320bee and NAD 521CD along with PSB Image 2b and Subsonic sub. Works very well but I want more sound and the little NAD could blow them all easily as it is very powerful and clean for a small amp.
danman
i bought all my speakers from the factory outlet and i'd swear Axiom sent me A models and just gave me a discount. you will NEVER get sub par sounding speakers out of there. In fact, often, finding the flaw can become a struggle.
the bass on M60's is nice and tight but not low like a sub. I'd recommend you get a sub to fully exploit low frequency sounds
I echo Ravi. Axiom states there will be no sonic flaws of any kind, so they will perform like A models. Flaws, if any, would be cosmetic, and very slight. I Got M22tis and a VP150 from the outlet. I haven't taken a magnifying glass to them, but I've not found any flaw at all. I'm "changing" (Happy Chess?
) from the 22tis to the M60s, and I'm getting those from the Outlet also. I don't think you need be concerned at all.
In reply to:
I'm "changing" (Happy Chess?
Absolutely!
Hey, "switching", "swapping", "trading", "exchanging" are all good too. More politically correct (or to make up a whole new word, more "terminologically" correct) than that "u" word.
It provokes the question,
"Why are you trading them in for that other model?"
rather than suggesting to the reader the immediate thought,
"He says he is upgrading so therefore the Axiom M{tower} must be better than the Axiom M{bookshelf}"
(insert words as you please to fit the general model of the sentence)
Those discussions involving the words '
better than' always get so snooty and emotional.
By the way, thanks for the links to the smileys page. They are much more fun than the llimited forum options.
Highly commendable choice of terminology, Jack. We can all get along if things such as the "B word", the "M word", and now the "U word" aren't resorted to.
And I thought I hated emoticons before... ;-)
more "terminologically" correct than that "u" word."
Not necessarily. Question. Is there any circumstance where, in your mind, "changing" from one speaker to another could possibly be an "upgrade"? What if you paid $100 for a speaker that you found more sonically pleasing than your current $200 speaker? Is that an upgrade? If so, then the word "upgrade has a valid use.
I understand what you are objecting to, but, as is the case with most "politically correct" terminology, it becomes tyrannical in it's application. All too often the term upgrade is used, as you object to, to imply more expensive is more better. That is a misuse of the word. But, if a person obtains a new speaker that he/she feels is "better." for whatever reason, then, in his/her opinion it is, and can be correctly termed, an UPGRADE. So, in that context I will continue to, as accurately as possible, use the word "upgrade" when I feel it is appropriate. I will not allow you to "politically correct" me out of my right to use the English language in a reasonable manner. You are also free to do as you please. END OF RANT!
Apologies for hijacking the thread, but I just asked if he was happy. He started the dissertation.
Nice of you to say so, JohnK. Hope the above post hasn't ruined my image.
I kind of like Jack's take on this.
Some things really ARE "better" than others. Don't misunderstand me - I think that precise use of the language should be encouraged, and that people should be deliberate about what they say and how they say it. But I will not deny "Quality" as part of life, nor will I tolerate the notion that "having good judgement" is a bad thing.
I freely admit that a lot of what makes some things "better" than others is subjective. I don't think we should willy-nilly constantly imply that the tower speakers are necessarily an "upgrade" from other speakers; for a particular room or particular use, they could be a MUCH worse choice. But some things really ARE "better". Some ideas really ARE "stupid".
It's kind of like that "Receivers" thread that is simmering right now. Frankly, I don't CARE if different receivers "sound" differently. I'll leave it to the scientists and philosophers to figure that out. What matters to me is that my current system gives me joy, and it does. I feel blessed that I do not so easily succumb to equipment envy to such a degree that I can no longer enjoy the "now". There are too many environmental and content-related factors that impact my listening pleasure for me to worry about the subtleties of sideways electrons.
I'm reminded of Alan's comment about "similarly good". Whose signature line is "Enjoy the music"? Snippy?
Oh yeah, the factory outlet speakers are just fine. At least mine were.
This has been quite a week for stream-of-consciousness threads.
Ajax,
I had a long reply coming, but it may have been lost.
RE:I will not allow you to "politically correct" me out of my right to use the English language in a reasonable manner.
The notion that someone has stepped on your freedom of speech is ridiculous. Please no more flag waving.
Picking one's words so they convey an idea that is ACCURATE is important, but that is not what occurs on the forums. The term "upgrade" is way over used and sometimes used descriptively even BEFORE the person receives their new upgrades!!
Upgrade now essentially = larger $$ model because newbies usually do not distinguish it from a poster's statements as they have no frame of reference (e.g. like having read earlier posts on the subject in which your upgrades were discussed, before AND after audition opinions heard and reported).
It is just like the term "terrorist".
Everyone is a terrorist.
It has lost all meaning.
Now everything may as well be an upgrade.
Maybe just for fun i should start using the word "downgrade" to describe some decisions for speaker buyers and see how some of the newbies react eh?
By the way, nice emoticon upgrade chess!
Some good points, Tom, and thanks for the support.
Yes, some things ARE "better" than others. But, the thing we have to keep in mind about the word "better" is that that term is COMPLETELY subjective. The problem comes when one tries to make "better" an objective, or absolute, term. You can't measure better or demon state it with numbers. It's an opinion.
If you find speaker A "better" than speaker B, and I find B "better' than A, neither of us is wrong, and neither should be offended. Speaker A IS better than speaker B....to you. And that is a completely valid opinion.
Rather than saying nobody should say something is "better" than something else, thereby restricting free speech and the right to have and express an opinion, it seems to me, we should accept that it is only an opinion being expressed. And, having and expressing an opinion is both reasonable, valid, and permissible. If your opinion differs from the one expressed, that is also reasonable, valid, and permissible. And remember, opinions are not arguable. Opinions are neither right nor wrong. They just are an opinion.
OK! OK! I apologize, again. Save money with the Outlet!
ummm...
I know we've had some silly arguments around here in the past. (wires, amps, receivers, etc...) but this much emotion being put into the use of the word "upgrade" seems to put all our other threads to shame. At least those rants were about electronics.
Switch to decaf guys.
In reply to:
By the way, nice emoticon upgrade chess!
Ok, that's it Ray. That tears it.
Where do you live? We need to have a serious outdoor chat.
Chess, I think we should stop here. Aside from hijacking this poor guys thread, we see the issue differently, and if we continue it will just turn into a "but you said," "no, I said" thing.
I have great respect for you and all the regulars here on the Axiom forum. You have helped me a number of times and, in all sincerity, I'm grateful. I will continue to use the words "upgrade" and 'better" when I deem it reasonable, and accurate. You are free to do as you please.
Lets just agree to disagree.
Thanks.
In reply to:
Switch to decaf guys.
Don't you mean
downgrade to decaf?
Boy! First I'm told what I can or cannot say. Now I'm told what to drink. Pushy! Pushy! Pushy!
Don't take him up, Ray! I assume that chess is picturing himself on that Browning M2 .50 cal. You'd have no shot with those two puny pistols.
Can't we all just get along? :-)
John, I believe you are correct. Before I stood an even chance, I would need to...... (wait for it)...... upgrade my weaponry.
I need to lie down in the dark for awhile and see if I can bring my "too much fun" twitch under control. I also need to wipe my eyes. I'm sitting here in a quiet den all by myself laughing out loud as I type and tears are running down my face. My wife just mentioned something about going to get "the special smoking jacket with the really long sleeves that wrap around me".
In reply to:
Lets just agree to disagree
There is no disagreement here Ajax.
I understand what you are saying and i agree. Your usage of the word is certainly correct and one cannot stop using a word, especially one like... {earmuffs, earmuffs}....OF.
All i pointed out (even so long ago when chatting with Spiff) was the context in which the "u" word was being abused (in general by many posters, in volumes more recently) and misunderstood by those who had no frame of reference for it, then offered some alternatives. I believe not so long ago there was a discussion about actual grammar and spelling as a pet peeve on the forums. Oddly enough, i wasn't involved in that debate at all. Things only get real ugly when someone gets called a jackass. We were far from such a state.
You can use the "u", "b", "m" and "f" words as often as you like.
My grandmother does it every other sentence and she doesn't even have Tourette's or Axioms.
In reply to:
Don't you mean downgrade to decaf?
Since i don't drink coffee, i have no frame of reference, so really for me, i would have to start drinking coffee first. Would this be an upgrade or a downgrade?
Hmm, a poll is in the coming future.
In reply to:
Can't we all just get along? :-)
I think i hear Bren calling for another round of Kumbaya.
![]("http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/hug1.gif")
![]("http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage10/9.gif")
OH YA, BUY FACTORY OUTLET!!
danman,
Let's get back on topic for you. The M60s provide excellent bass. They will not, however, provide the level of LFE that a good sub will provide. I'm pretty sure I would be hard pressed to take my sub out of the mix ( I have the M60s and an SVS 20-39PCi) now that I have everything calibrated and working together.
If you want to go with the bass on the M60s (rather than the sub) for music, you have some options and would still be able to have the sub available for movies. you could :
1) Turn the sub off for music. You would need to set the front speakers to large.
2) You could control the sub dB level with your remote or receiver and effectively turn it to the minus side such that it doesn't have any volume.
3) Reach behind the sub and adjust the gain up or down to add or remove LFE.
Probably other ideas, but you get the idea.
As far as the quality of the Outlet stock goes, my (pretty extensive) research here on the message board indicates that, without exception, the speakers show up 1) in excellent playing shape and 2) the imperfections are imperceptible or non-existent to the naked eye.
Please consider these speakers because they are excellent. The manner in which this thread was twisted out of shape is uncommon and may have you a bit tweaked. All in good fun and that's one of the reasons I like to wander in here and play in the sandbox. Order with confidence.
Thanks for all the strange comments but I am not sure if anyone really answered the question or not!!
I listened to JMLab 716s this week end and was very impressed. Does anyone know how they compare to the M60's?
I would like to get rid of my subwoofer for music as I do not like having too much bass that is not realistic in music. I have never heard anything from Axiom but I am very impressed by all the comments here and everywhere. I guess I need reassurance that this will be a good speaker for me.
politically correct language is stressed...and then we sink to the depths of animated gun play??
Precisely why I have all but abandoned this board......
BBIBH,
We're fresh out of soapboxes here...
BBIBH,
I've read your comments with interest and your most recent comment indicates that your intent would be to move on to other pursuits rather than continuing to add your insights here. I took the time to review some of your historical postings and I would be personally disappointed to see you terminate your relationship with this forum.
I appreciate your comments regarding my experiences.
However, if you read the thread, apparently there is room to correct inconsistencies with wording - as dictated by board members, but something that I feel is not "politcally correct" is not allowed.
This echoes the post I made recently......
I'd just like to go on record to say that I've been here well before the board became as popular as it is today (back then five posts a day was considered hectic) and BBIBH was one of the reasons why I stayed on.
His input is interesting and informative.
I'll respect what ever you do but IMO I'd rather you stay and contribute.
How did I get so tall????
...oh ......it's the box I'm standing on.
I'd like to echo Ford and Ray's comments.
More smart people are better than fewer smart people.
BBIBH, I want to encourage you to "stay" and participate to what ever degree and on what ever topics feel right to you. I really think this is a fun board and that there is room for all of us.
Chalk up another for for you staying...I too have enjoyed reading your contributions to these boards.
This thread got beyond ridiculous. I hope you can agree that that is not the "norm" around here.
OK, I'm getting on my soapbox here. This is nuts! We all know we disagree on things (right, BigWill? :-), but the amount of people getting up and saying they're leaving or upset or we have a majority tyranny because someone said something they don't like and they don't feel they can say anything back seems to me to be overreacting. Sure, we've got heated discussions. But they're just that, discussions. There's a back and forth. Maybe we just all need to tone down the rhetoric a bit and cool it on the personal insults. (Yes, I mean you, everyone. Incuding me).
That said, I'd rather everyone stuck around. It makes things more interesting and fun around here.
Amen to that!
Ken's right, I think everyone should probably relax a little bit. This is supposed to be a fun hobby and I think this is one of the best boards going. Everyone just gets a little too excited about some of the audio
grenades. Bottom line is that this board is a better place for having all the different opinions, whether you agree with them or not! Let's not lose that.
Thanks for saying that more coherently than I could.
Ken
Do you all think that we could stay on topic here as I am trying to find out information not about peoples ego problems! I am new here and not really impressed so far with the responses concerning the topic at hand.
Please go back and read what I asked in the first place or refer me to a simular topic instead of discussing things that are not important! Will someone at AXIOM respond please. I want to buy speakers not see a psychologist!
I refer you to 3 postings in this thread:
" danman
i bought all my speakers from the factory outlet and i'd swear Axiom sent me A models and just gave me a discount. you will NEVER get sub par sounding speakers out of there. In fact, often, finding the flaw can become a struggle.
the bass on M60's is nice and tight but not low like a sub. I'd recommend you get a sub to fully exploit low frequency sounds"
ravi singh
" I echo Ravi. Axiom states there will be no sonic flaws of any kind, so they will perform like A models. Flaws, if any, would be cosmetic, and very slight. I Got M22tis and a VP150 from the outlet. I haven't taken a magnifying glass to them, but I've not found any flaw at all. I'm "changing" (Happy Chess?) from the 22tis to the M60s, and I'm getting those from the Outlet also. I don't think you need be concerned at all."
Ajax
" danman,
Let's get back on topic for you. The M60s provide excellent bass. They will not, however, provide the level of LFE that a good sub will provide. I'm pretty sure I would be hard pressed to take my sub out of the mix ( I have the M60s and an SVS 20-39PCi) now that I have everything calibrated and working together.
If you want to go with the bass on the M60s (rather than the sub) for music, you have some options and would still be able to have the sub available for movies. you could :
1) Turn the sub off for music. You would need to set the front speakers to large.
2) You could control the sub dB level with your remote or receiver and effectively turn it to the minus side such that it doesn't have any volume.
3) Reach behind the sub and adjust the gain up or down to add or remove LFE.
Probably other ideas, but you get the idea.
As far as the quality of the Outlet stock goes, my (pretty extensive) research here on the message board indicates that, without exception, the speakers show up 1) in excellent playing shape and 2) the imperfections are imperceptible or non-existent to the naked eye.
Please consider these speakers because they are excellent. The manner in which this thread was twisted out of shape is uncommon and may have you a bit tweaked. All in good fun and that's one of the reasons I like to wander in here and play in the sandbox. Order with confidence."
Ray3
which answer some of your questions.
If you want to hear from someone at Axiom directly, it's best to email or call them. This forum is mostly for owners, soon-to-be-owners, etc. And yes, we get sidetracked.
Thank you for getting back on track. My goal is to eliminate my sub from music only as I find it annoying sometimes when it goes too low and becomes un-natural. Music in reality does not go that low in real recordings. However, I do enjoy it with DVD's as it makes the effects become more alive.
I realize that the M60's are not going to go as low as any sub for music but their frequency response seems to indicate they are capable of good strong bass and that is what I am looking for. My only concern is that I have never heard them and am a little worried about buying factory outlet models.
I do not like boominess in music so that is what I am getting at I guess. I have been researching Axiom for quite some time now and have yet to read anything truely negative but it is always hard to buy when you can't listen first and I live in an area where there is no way to try them BUT I see that there is also a 30 day return policy that is interesting. I guess I have a lot to think about.
You'll not get any 'boominess' from a pair of Axiom M60's. But when you say
In reply to:
"I find it annoying sometimes when it goes too low and becomes un-natural. Music in reality does not go that low in real recordings.
I have to disagree. Sounds to me like you've just been using a really crap subwoofer. A good subwoofer is not going to create anything that wasn't there on the CD to begin with. The problem is that so many subwoofers are poorly made, and distort the heck out of that low signal, which creates that horrible boominess you dislike so much. A
good subwoofer will recreate those low signals smoothly, and cleanly. Don't short change your listening enjoyment. Get a really good subwoofer, and properly calibrate it. Hsu and SVS are the subwoofer leaders - you can't go wrong with a sub from them.
As far as buying from Axiom's outlet - go for it. I bought nearly all my Axiom's from the outlet and couldn't be happier.
I have been using a PSB subzero it is an 8" woofer and seemed quite good to me and considering all its good reviews I bought it. I did not want something too big since I had the Axioms in mind. You maybe right, but I play a lot of instruments and in reality, drums and bass guitars are drier than what you hear on coloured systems.
As I said, I am not looking for a tower speaker that spits out boominess and I am hoping that the M60 will eliminate a use of a sub for music ONLY!
How do the Axiom subs rate? I do not hear much about them!
Sounds like the M60's are the speakers for you. Nice tight bass. "Dry" as you call it.
I still think you'd be surprised what a Hsu or SVS would do for your music though.
what is the hsu website......for whatever reason I can't get on it only reviews ans stuff like that
Thanks. Checked it out and was amazed by the prices! Only problem is that they don't ship to Canada right now only at a later undetermined date!
Are they really that good? What about the Axiom's? How do they rate?
Also if I compare the JmLab Chorus 716S to the M60's how would I fare?
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subwoofers.htm
Better choices. PB1-ISD or 25-31 PCI.
Hsu and SVS are definately the two companies to look at. I wouldn't even bother looking anywhere else unless you've simply got more money than you could possibly know what to do with.
As the conversation has turned slightly towards discussin subs - I have a quick question.
Everybody, and it seems, only everybody, recommends either the Hsu or the SVS. I understand the great value that they present. But -- will it defeat the purpose of getting some great Axioms (M50s, Qs8s, VP100) if I go with a cheaper subwooofer? Will it be unbalanced, or will it discolor the sound? Will it just sound crappy comparatively? I'm not a huge bass enthusiast for my music, and do mostly TV and HT watching. I just want to know if going with a $200 SONY (there's a dual 10-inch push pull sub that's pretty inexpensive on the market right now) would be foolish.
I would look at a HSU STF-1. Its flat down to 32 Hz and it sounds good with music (according to reviews).
Sasha says that the people at CES were really wowed by it.
I agree...get the STF-1 before getting a cheap/bad sub.
If your music sounds unnatural with the sub, it is probably of poor quality or not properly calibrated. That being said, most receivers have a "direct audio" mode for stereo listening that eliminates all signal processing and takes the sub out of the loop. My Onkyo has it (called "pure audio"), and your receiver may have it as well.
Mark
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the H/K line has that? All I see is stereo, which could be equivalent, I suppose.
I have a H/K 630. It has a direct mode.
If you hit the "Stereo" button on the remote while listening to an analog input, it will cycle through 3 choices:
"Surround Off" (this IS the direct mode)
"Surround Off" with "DSP" indicator lit (uses bass management)
"5 Ch Stereo"
Hitting the "Stereo" button while playing a digital input will cycle through the last 2 choices only.