Hi ... There will be some of you that already know me as Craigsub from AVS or Home Theater SPot... Rijax suggested I might do a comparison of the Axiom M22's and a pair of Rocket bookshelf speakers.
I bought the M22's in December, and also have the VDP 150 center channel.
I have the facilities to handle blind testing, and can also match the SPL levels of the speakers within 0.01 db using pink noise.
If this comparison happens, it will be done strictly through blind tests, with measurements done ... and hopefully it will be fun...
Thanks - Craig
We'd love to see the results. Keep us "posted"
That would be fantastic! Are you the same guy that did the comparison between the HSU and SVS subs?
Wow...we're in for a treat of Craigsub does this. His work with the sub shootouts was top notch.
Which Rocket are you going to put the M22ti up against? I heard the RS250 and the M22ti and the Ascend 170 quite awhile back. Though not blind testing, you certainly didn't need to be blindfolded to tell the difference. I don't think two speakers can sound any more different than the RS250 and M22ti.
Really looking forward to hearing your impressions.
Spiffnme... Thanks for the compliment... much appreciated ! ... and yes, I am the same guy who did the Hsu/SVS tests...
After 150 pound subwoofers, bookshelf speakers seem SO reasonable... hee hee
i never saw/heard about the sub review.
who won?
spiff...it was the RS150 you heard.
The "sub tests" were great! Very informative and well thought out and just damn fun to read. I ended up with the HSU VTF-3 and I love it but after reading your sub tests, I think I would have been just as happy with the SVS. I look forward to the Axiom/Rocket duel.
Are you gonna be comparing the veneers on the bookshelf's too, or just the sound?
Just curious......not that anyone really cares about veneers, right guys.
ooops.
RS150 then.
Craig, welcome and thanks for this interesting shoot out. I've read your posts elswhere with much interest, especially the shoot out and you are partially responsible for me discovering the world of good LFE (SVS 20-39 PCi).
What are your thoughts on the Axiom subs? The questuion comes up alot here.
OH OH! Don't trust this Craigsub bum.. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
Craig is a regular over at the av123 forum, as well as many others, and I just wanted to live up to our reputation over there.
I've followed Craig's work from nasty attacks on the HSU forum (Curtis, keep away from your keyboard
); through an agonizingly painful thread at the AVS forum (how he stood it, I'll never know); to an informative and educational experience over at the HomeTheaterSpot. For those who are unaware, he has been conducting shootouts between a number of subwoofer makes and models.
Keeping in mind that there is no such thing as a completely unbiased opinion,
NOBODY could do a better job than Craig has done, and under very difficult circumstances. He has been accused of being a shill for various companies, but I've yet to see any hard evidence to prove those accusations. If he is a shill, he's got me fooled. (of course, I'm easily fooled)
I cannot speak for anyone else here at the forum, and I certainly can't speak for Axiom, but I'd love it if Craig would do some comparisons of Axioms and Rockets.
You may notice that he types in kind of a high, shrill voice (witness "hee hee" rather than "hah hah") That's what happens when you carry around 250 pound subwoofers a lot.
And he's a relatively old guy, too.
Keep us posted please, Craig. And please stick around and comment. You would be a welcome addition here.
I think it was the one on
eCoustics.com. Nice review (must have read it about 10 times) although it didn't really make my sub decision this week that much easier!
oops! perhaps I'm wrong on that..just noticed the name at the bottom of the comparison I linked to. Sorry about that.
Yeah that has review has nothing to do with Craigsub.
But, read some of it anyway. Holy Cats! And the folks over at av123 think WE have a vitriolic forum. Whew! 'Scuse me. I gotta go put out my clothing which is in flames.
craig, after the comparisons, you might need to change your handle to "craigbooks"
so where can I find craigsub's review? I just spent an agonizing 2 weeks trying to decide which sub to buy. My Axiom's might arrive today (fedex has them on the truck) so I am anxious to get it all together. The sub I ordered (Outlaw LM-1, designed with help from Dr. Hsu), OTOH, is gonna be another week
I think I found it on hometheaterspot.com
I see this forum is warped... a goof thing !! ...
As for my hee hees... I sing bass, so my hee hees are scarier than the average guy's haa haa ....
And Rijax, I am 43... barely out of puberty...
Ok... Let's see what happens over the next couple of days...
Alas, but BigWill arrived too late to participate in that moribund HT thread that ruffled so many feathers. I have had the opportunity, however, to peruse the board at AV123. Those guys have some very beautiful HT setups!
Craig,
I know you have a lot on your plate, but here are a couple of relatively short threads that will introduce us.
Are you brave enough to reveal your face?
Here, you'll even find a photo of Curtis, with two of the cutest kids you'll ever see (Page 8. I'm there too, with my babies
).
What Do You Do?
Yeah, and we should be clear on one important point - MOST of the warpage is centered in Ohio. Near Cleveland. At Jack's house.
Oh I don't know. There's a fair amount in Rochester.
Hello Craig. Welcome aboard.
I've also enjoyed reading your shootout on the Spot very much. Great work, thank you.
Hey Craig, do you think you could add some other brand bookshelfs to the test? Like maybe some comparably priced Klipschs, Monitor Audios, etc...? It would be really interesting to hear how the internet brands compare with the retail brands.
Michael, Mike, and Jack... Cool pictures... and nice "what do you do" threads...
You guys are a good group ... we will see where this bookshelf testing takes us.
Mark Shifter is also a nice man, and we are talking next week what speakers he wants tested, it may be some new towers of theirs.
If nothing else, tis is a friendly place...
I know Tony G has stirred up some stuff here, but he is also a good guy... and he had a round of sh** with Markotran of AVS fame that was pure entertainment...
and you guys have not lived until you have had Marlo after you... Jack can attest to that.
As for Axiom subwoofers, I am not familiar with them ... other than reading specs... maybe in the fall ...
Hello Craig,
I followed your sub shootout and am looking forward to your newest adventure. I have to say you are more unbiased than about 80% of the reviews I read on the 'net.
Keep up the good work.
Does that mean 20 % are less biased than I am ? I know you wre complimenting me... but one of the reasons I started this shootout stuff is that it seems most guys start a review having decided what they want the results to be... THEN they prove it. If you could point me towards a more un-biased review, send me a link... I love to learn !
Bias means you are not open to "your" choice losing.
For example, when I agreed to test the Rocket UFW-10, my opinion was that it would get creamed by the Hsu subwoofer... but my ears told me different, and that is what I reported. If I had bias, I would have found a way for the UFW-10 to sound bad.
One thing I try to do is describe the differences in sound of the speakers... for example... the Hsu VTF-3 Mark
II has a fairly warm, almost tubish sound... some guys like that warm sound... others like a leaner sound...
I also like the review process to be interactive... trying different music... etc... getting feedback from people.
One thing I am pretty adamant about... These are speakers, not cancer curing miracle devices... so I won't take things too seriously... especially my reviewing acumen...
By the Way, the only part of this forum I don't like... Where are the emoticons... ???
Oh... and if this bookshelf test does get started, it will be posted on the spot, and if someone wants to link it here, that would be good.
paul is allowing you to post a link to another site? thought that was a no no.
dan
He has been allowing this for the comparison tests... I think he has discovered that being more open brings more people in... which is a good thing !
In reply to:
I know Tony G has stirred up some stuff here,..... and he had a round of sh** with Markotran of AVS fame that was pure entertainment...
I think it is a sad state of our society for those who find entertainment in such things and that the source of such occurrences comes from the same people across multiple forums.
Chesseroo ... In this case Tony was defending a product he did not even own (SVS), and Markotran is legendary in his hating SVS products... and it was entertaining to read.
Did you read it ?
Also, I appreciated the PM from you regarding my methodologies in testing... did you by chance read the text from the original shootout ?
As i said craig, i do not find two people arguing for the sake of arguing anymore entertaining than having to watch the violence already fed to me via the daily news on wars across our globe. It proves nothing more than two people who like conflict or perhaps have no other place to resolve their personal anger problems in an anonymous way.
I did not read the text from the original shootout. Please post the link. I would be interested in perusing it.
Since you did not read it, I find your statement that it was arguing for the sake of arguing to lack credibility.
If someone attacks a quality product in a forum, and another person defends that product, I consider that to be proper behavior. That is precisely what Tony did in that example. For example, If I saw where someone went after Axiom, I would definitely defend their products... we really like the M-22's
I thought Rijax had posted a link already...
As an aside... I am also looking at the M80Ti's ... the custom finish idea is pretty compelling...
This could also end up a floorstanding shootout...
Craig;
I am one of those who read your subwoofer shootout and was quite impressed. Though I was rooting for the Hsu (as a Hsu owner), you validated the prevailing opinion that Hsu and SVS subs are both excellent, and I am still very happy with my Hsu despite the fact that SVS came out on top in your shootout.
If you are going to do a floorstander shootout, I would humbly suggest that you test the M60's. As an M60 owner, naturally I am somewhat biased toward that speaker, but there are other reasons to consider testing the M60. The M60's and M80's are reputed to have very similar sound, with the M80's playing somewhat louder and able to fill a larger room. The M80's are a 4 ohm load, and therefore not everybody's electronics can drive them. The M80's are reported to be much more finicky as regards placement, meaning that you might have to do several hours of experimentation with placement before starting the testing. I would also guess that the M60 is far and away the best selling floorstander in the Axiom line, so a review of the M60 would have more applicability to prospective customers.
Whatever you decide, I am sure it will be a very high quality shootout, and I will be looking forward to it.
Mark
Mark... Thanks, and in regards to the VTF-3 Mark II, there will be some follow up on the original review... when I posted the original, that was with about 50 hours of listening to each subwoofer... now we are up to about 200 hours.
The VTF-3 is a great all purpose subwoofer... it should be a fairly good read.
I will look at the M-60's also... and may review them on their own... or against a Rocket product and some B&M speakers
One interesting by-product of the original shootout is that some guys who were always arguing between SVS and Hsu became friendly... hopefully that will happen here as well.
Personally, it looks to me like both Axiom and Rocket have superior value to brands like Paradigm, PSB, and other B&M type of speakers... I love it when a guy PM's that he almost bought a $2000 Velodyne, but opted for a $700 Hsu because it sounded as good... and he thanks me introducing him to the product... THAT is what makes this review process worth the time it takes...:)
Craig,
I don't think Chess said that the Tony vs. Marko thing was arguing for the sake of arguing, but it could be inferred from the way he said what he said. It seemed to me he was referring more to Marko who, I assume you'll agree, does like to argue.
I have not read the thread either. However, with Marko involved, how could it be anything else but arguing for arguing's sake
. I gotta respect (and at the same time, question the sanity) of anyone who gets into it with Marko. It's a dead end street and will inevitably become a "you said, " no, I said, then you said," "no, I didn't say that," kinda thing. Chess understandably finds that offensive. Strangely, so do I though I plead guilty to getting caught up in it, as Tony, and Chess, for that matter (apologies Chess) can attest.
I posted links to the two shootouts on the SPOT. I haven't been following for a couple of weeks as I told you. Are you saying that Marko showed up at the SPOT? PLEASE tell me he didn't. Either way, can you point us in the direction of the Marko vs. Tony debate?
Glad you like the 22s. Floor standing shootout would be cool. Many of us here own the M60s and M80s, and of those who don't, many own the 22s .
Emoticons are a do it yourself project here.
This will show you how to do them. A bit more complicated than the other forums, but it gets the job done. I copied the HTML section, pasted it into Word, and printed it so I wouldn't have to refer to the web page while typing a reply. While you're there, you might take a quick peek at the rest of the FAQ. They explain a lot.
Hey Ray! Turn Craig on to your emoticons.
Jack - Thanks for the clarification ...
Chess... Sorry for mis-representing you then...:)
Marko was almost like a train wreck for me... You know... looking is in poor taste, but you just cannot help it... He was so obtuse, I could not let it go....
Oh... and AVS actually deleted the thread where Marko and Tony went at it... and no, Marko has not gotten to the SPot... THAT would be interesting....
In reply to:
and no, Marko has not gotten to the SPot... THAT would be interesting....
Oh thank heaven! I can breathe now. Whew!
Jack... for kicks, someday I may buy Marko an SVS subwoofer ...
Craig,
Ajax has it correct.
I was being more general and not specific to that exact AVS post. As you noted though, there is a reason why those posts get deleted by moderators and i applaud it when it happens. Axiom is a bit more frugal in the post deletion but any complaints to Amie are reviewed and she has recently just clipped some of the posts from the most recent controversial discussion where insults were coming in every second line.
It is pure human nature to enjoy watching conflict.
Have you ever seen a nature show that only had 8 hours of a lion sitting in the grass lazing all day? That is the reality of it. But of course, humans find it boring.
Can you imagine how many hours/miles of wildlife photography needs to actually be taken to piece together even 20 minutes of video to keep a human viewer interested in such content?
I guess i'm just getting tired of reading/hearing/seeing people fight. It is petty and depressing. My cynical side (and scientifically informed opinion) says we are still on course to destroy our own planet rather effectively within the next 150 years.
Enjoy your speakers while you've got them! Your grandkids may not get the chance.
Chess... The lion looks pretty bored, too ...
As for the end of the world stuff... we boring humans tend to find a way to make things better.
In reply to:
for kicks, someday I may buy Marko an SVS subwoofer ...
ROTFLMAO! The ultimate comeuppance! Hey! While you're at it, I'll take a 20-39 PCi, thank you very much.
(Do NOT interpret that as dissatisfaction with my HSU. It's purely a mercenary attempt to get something for nothing)
For those not in the know, Marko, aka Markotran, aka Bob, is a notorious poster on many forums. I think he means well, but there is something a little funny in his brain, that won't let him allow anyone to disagree with his point of view. And, any colloquy with him quickly degenerates in the abyss of argument. Climbing out of that abyss is an impossibility. If I'm correct he's even been banned from several forums. Anyway, he IS a piece of work.
Jack ... You are right that the actual wasting of $$$$ on him would be pretty dumb...
And it looks like the review will consist of the M22's and a new Rocket ELT Cse bookshelf...
I looked for the ELT Cse on the av123 web site but couldn't find it. I found the ELT speakers, but could find no "Cse," so I have no idea about it's specs or cost.
I'll go look again.
Jack, It is a new speaker for them. I am not sure of the cost, drivers, or anything else... My guess is that it is an upgrade from the ELT bookshelf for $249...
Thanks Craig. Let us know when we can get more information about it, will ya?
Craig - thanks for being a breath of fresh air. It will be interesting to see the results. I was also intrigued by your comment on the M60s. Both spiffnme and I think the M60s face off very evenly with the B&W 703s. At the end of the day, I'll guess that the Axioms and Rockets both prove to be good solid speaker choices. The one overriding comment I see time after time is that your own ears are the determining factor in choosing.
As said before, I have a little trouble seeing how some folks get wrapped around the axle with speakers and subs. It's JUST not that important in the overall sceme of things.
Anyhow, thanks again. The silliness we just experienced looks to have fostered a positive outcome.
Ray
Ray, Thanks for the nice words... when I mentioned the M60's against B&M speakers, that was not a typo... it stands for Brick and Mortar... as in the usual stuff you see in a stereo store...
And one thing I try to do is have fun with thus stuff... the low cost items are more fun to test than the big buck gear... I just got a Hsu STF-1 in for testing... $299 subwoofer. Early listening says it is pretty decent...
I appreciate everyone making me feel welcome...
In reply to:
I appreciate everyone making me feel welcome...
Craig.
Everyone is always heartily welcomed, unless of course you call Axiom's tinny in your first post (or something to that effect).
...(they use aluminum drivers...get it?)
Ok bad (and old) joke.
Welcome to the Axiom forums.
I have told worse jokes than that today... I did get a message from Mark Schifter, the ELT Cse's are a 4 driver three way bookshelf... I don't have the msrp yet... but will by mid-week.
craig, wait 'til the honeymoon is over, we'll jump all over you then.
I appreciate everyone making me feel welcome...
dan
Hey Craig,
Try to get specs, too, such as frequency response.
Forgive my lack of technical expertise, but doesn't a 4 driver, 3 way speaker have an inherent advantage over a 3 driver, 2 way speaker?
Gets kinda quiet around her on the weekends, don't it?
Hope your boy, und der frau, are doing well. I think about him now and then, and wish him well. Happy Easter!
"Oh... and AVS actually deleted the thread where Marko and Tony went at it... and no, Marko has not gotten to the SPot... THAT would be interesting...."
Hey Craig:
Actually Paul banned him when he was Bob after about 3 posts. It was as they say, swift and onerous action.
Paul has little tolerance for Bob's type. BTW, have you noticed he's been away from AVS for a week. I think he gets banned on a week by week basis.
Jack, Actually, in an inexpensive speaker, in many cases the two way has the advantage, the crossover is a much simpler animal. I was surprised to see it would be a 3 way.
I wil be able to post frequency response sweeps, and a lot of other data, too. The TrueRTA software I bought is pretty good...
Tony... I did notice Marko was missing... I actually feel kinda sorry for him... If I run into him again, I may arrange a field trip to a singles bar... and show him what girls are...
Jack... Thanks for the kindness towards my son... he is on the insulin pump now and growing like a horse ... he is 12 and as tall as his mother... 5 feet 7 inches...
Good news is most welcome!
In reply to:
Good news is most welcome!
It just occured to me that the above statement is a tad ambiguous. It referred to how well your son is doing, which is indeed good news.
Thanks pal... and you can find the specs on the ELT Cse... it has the same drivers/crossover as the ELT center channel... but is done in Rosewood... for comparison, look at the M22's in a high gloss finish...
Thanks for the info. I'll check it out over at av123.
Sent you a brief PM, but it occured to me you might not recognize the meaning of the little flashing envelope next to "Main Index" in the menu above the posts on each page. Click on it, and you should be led to your message page.
Just curious... whats the time frame before we'd hear some initial impressions?
Inane.. Great name.... I think the ELT's will be brand new, so, doing the timeline, they are scheduled to ship today... arrive by week's end... a couple of break in weeks... probably about the first of May.... Possibly earlier if the speakers break in sooner...
OH OH. Be nice fellas.
There is a general opinion at this forum, though there are dissenters, that speakers don't really "break in." Those who subscribe to that theory (and I hope I get this right), feel that what's happening is your brain is acclimating to the sound of the speakers. I'm on the fence. I simply don't know.
I do feel the M22s I've been listening to for a couple of months sound a better (different?) to me now. I haven't the foggiest idea what (if anything) has changed. But, I do believe, whether it's my speakers or my brain, SOMETHING has changed.
Ajax,
During Axiom's in-house, blind testing of 'broken' in speakers vs. a pair right off the line, they could not discern between the two. Very few (if any) others have done similar tests with the vast majority of reports on break-in coming only from a consumer standpoint, one that is easily explained by our neural behaviour.
For obvious reasons, testing this this would harder to do at home, unless you have the cash to order a brand new speaker pair just for fun as well as the time to properly setup and conduct an honest blind test. I think companies post more about breaking in components as a marketing tool since it is a highly accepted concept. It is blasphemy if you say otherwise as the owner of Mcintosh Labs once found out.
Alan can tell you more about this although he has already posted such thoughts in the past. If i have time to find the link i will post it again.
Thanks Chess. Do post Alan's comments if you can find them. I remember that he's talked about this subject a number of times, but I can't, for the life of me, find them.
One thing I try to do during testing speakers is to get insight from the manufacturer regarding things like placement... etc.... Break in is one of those items. AV123 recommends a fairly long break in time... but not while you are listening to them. You fire them up, leave them on, and come back in a few days. If the noise is a problem, just run a mono pink noise section, put them nose to nose, and wire them out of phase. But since you don't listen much during the break in time, it is not one's ears that are being "acclimated" in this case.
And this may sound harsh, but I don't care who wins this... if there even is a winner. I e-mailed to AV123 the results of the subwoofer shootout so they could post it, Home Theater SPot does not accept Word files... but if you get a chance, read it... it will give you a flavor for what I look for in a speaker.
In reply to:
And this may sound harsh, but I don't care who wins this... if there even is a winner.
I certainly do not think that statement is harsh at all.
Athough rankings are useful for individuals trying to decide between 2 items, or for companies working on new designs, etc. i personally prefer the reviews that actually discuss speakers/equipment qualities without ranking them. I think it is more useful for someone to read that Rockets may be more laid back while Axioms may be more forward sounding, as opposed to Rockets model BB scoring 9.7 and Axioms model YY scoring 9.4 therefore the Rockets "win".
Consumers should choose their 'winner' based on sound preference rather than an arbitrary number scale which inevitably will vary by personal preferences anyway.
Many of these sound qualities should become evident as more and more consumer reviews, especially those done as well as craigsub's, are posted for reading.
Chess... Thanks. Very well said. One side effect of all the subwoofer shootouts is that I have recommended every subwoofer tested to different people for different rooms, listening preferences... etc... Some guys here have already stated that hearing the differences between the ELT's and the M22's will be really easy, but blind testing will be done anyway... and hopefully two good companies will get a bit of a boost from this...:)
I still want to try a deaf listening test though... THAT would be a page turner !
Between the ELT Cse and the M22, I think the difference between the two will by much less than if you compare either with the RS150.
This is good... thanks Curtis... and he has already done deaf listening tests.... hee hee
Well...I have heard all three.
Just teasing you, Curtis... who knows... maybe a pair of Ascends down the road... ???
Yeah? I thought the RS150 would have been a better choice because it is the same price as the M22s. Or, though more expensive, even the RS250. The extra expense could be chalked up to the finish, and it has the same 3 driver, 2 way configuration. But, We haven't heard the price of the Cse yet. It too may be in the same range.
Curtis,
What differences did you hear in the 3 speakers? And, being an Ascend guy, which did you prefer, and why?. We won't bite you. Promise.
Guy's lets make nice to Curtis if he's courageous enough to post his opinions.
While I'm asking questions.
What is the difference between the RS150 and the RS250? They seem to have roughly the same frequency response. Is the effect of 2 woofers the ability to play louder and thus fill larger spaces, and is that the only advantage to having two woofers?
Jack - It looks like the ELT Cse is $499 for the pair - which seems pretty close to the Axioms if you add the High Gloss finish...
Aside from my "met**lic" comment I made many moons ago
, and the fact that I have not heard the ELT center in a vertical orientation, I'd say tough call.
From reading the AV123 board though, the ELT Cse is going to be $500/pr. Can you confirm that Craig?
I guess you already did.
Jack... The extra bass driver will give it more SPl's... 6 db more in its operating range in an anechoic setting, and about 4-5 in room...
Curtis... thought you would like that...:)
Oh Curtis you're such a diplomat.
Nobody's gonna pin you to a wall for finding speakers "met**lic" sounding. What am I gonna say, "No you didn't find them "met**lic" sounding"? All I could say is that they didn't sound "met**lic" to me. Hearing is pretty subjective, and one's hearing changes with age and exposure to noise, which complicates the whole issue anyway. I'm not offended if you don't like the speakers that I do. You don't have to be wrong in order for me to be right and vice versa. Can't speak for others here, but I value your thoughts and opinions, whether or not I agree with you.
So, basically, all other things being equal, the only thing an additional driver adds is the ability to play louder. It doesn't alter the timber (timbre?) or "color" of the speaker. So the RS150 and the RS250 would sound about the same, even though the cabinets are slightly different sizes?
Jack, I think the bass driver on the 150 is 5.25 inches, vs. 6.5 on the 250... That would suggest deeper extension... two equal drivers will increase output over one, with minimal effect on sound...
You are absolutely correct. I don't know where I got the idea that the 250 had 2 woofers. DUH! Chalk it up to age. Although, the av123 web site does list the frequency response for the 150 and the 250 as the same 48 to 20k Hz.
Hello Craig,
Been following many of your posts, in regards to this bookshelf comparison you plan on doing, it might help to know what you think of the M22's right now, before you even hear the ELT's. Something to consider.
I like the M22's a lot... though they are not in what anyone would consider to be ideal an listening position... they are in an entertainment center
Is there a way to directly post a picture here ? I do have one of the Axioms in their current home...
I opened a new thread on Home Theater SPot in the same forum the subs are in ... and posted two pics of the main part of the system...
No offense here Craig, but was hoping for something more than "I like them a lot". Maybe some strenghts and weaknesses. How they compare to some of the other speakers you may have had.
Johnny, If you go take a look at the pics I just posted on the SPot, you will see why I made that comment, No real critical listening has been done yet... they have lived in that cabinet the whole time, and are being driven by a kid friendly Onkyo Receiver DVD combo ($500) ... they will have the Benefit of a $4600 McIntosh Amp and a modded Denon 2900 Universal player for this test...and will be on stands, and treated as a high end component..
... a good thing !
Just saw the picture. How could you listen to them that way? The resonating from the rear port into that enclosed cabinet must sound terrible. On top of that, the baffle the rest of the cabinet creates is not good either.
Those WERE accurate speakers until you got ahold of them.
Ok, I understand now, just thought you would have done some critical listening with the M22's already.
You can post photos, but they have to be hosted somewhere else.
Some of use a great, FREE, service called
Photobucket. It's pretty easy to use. Once your photo is hosted somewhere (Photobucket), you just follow the instructions on the FAQ page for adding an image to your post. Not difficult.
Great... Now a moderator at the Ascend Forum is busting my Ba**s here...
A review for those who do not know... I have a dedicated room... strictly for two channel listening (where the test will take place) ... then we have the high end theater room with a 120 in screen... then this is the kid's TV room ... the little darlins have to survive with a 65 in TV and Axioms....
Thanks Jack... Hey Curtis... notice how Jack's info was USEFUL ? ... now where the He** is the :naner: when you need it ?
In reply to:
Just saw the picture. How could you listen to them that way? The resonating from the rear port into that enclosed cabinet must sound terrible. On top of that, the baffle the rest of the cabinet creates is not good either.
Those WERE accurate speakers until you got ahold of them.
And on top of that, you've got them on their side (GASP!
) and with the tweeter on the outside edge rather than the inside edge. No wonder you couldn't comment!
They must sound like drek!
Here's the :naner:
You just type [ tongue ], but without the spaces.
How to do this, and other fun stull like posting images, etc., can be found
here.
For those of you who have NOT met my children... I could put Legacy Whispers with Krell equipment in the family room, and it would be pointless...
Since everyone wants to play abuse the reviewer... any of you geniuses care to recommend a stand for these speakers ?
Don't know the height you need, but here are a couple of good places to start looking.
RacksandStands
StandsandMounts
If you're in a hurry, check BB or CC to see what they carry.
Abusing the reviewer is our favorite game around here.
(that one is [ wink ] without the spaces.
)
that was fast.. remind me to never post I need an escort service...
Hey sailor! Wanna party?
(That one is [ laugh ] sans spaces.)
Hey Jack ... You make me nervous sometimes ...[fliphimthebird] ...
The bird flip did not work ...
http://www.nightflight.com/escort-service/Pennsylvania/Erie-escort-service.htm
Here u go Craig, enjoy! Hehehe.
I can only imagine what an escort service would look like here... [shock] ... thanks for the thought though
Hey! Didn't you go look at the the pictures of the posters here?
Here's the list:
[ blush ]
[ cool ]
[ crazy ]
[ frown ]
[ laugh ]
[ mad ]
[ shocked ]
[ smile ]
[ tongue ]
[ wink ]
Timing is everything...hehehe... guess who had just logged onto that site when the wife walks into the room....
OH OH! Caught inflagrante delicto. Wish I could've heard THAT explanation.
It was easy ... I just showed her Johnny's post... she laughed. She also informed me I cannot afford an escort... somehow I don't think she was talking about the $200 ...
TOTAL EDIT ... We did actually discuss speakers at some point... didn't we ?
Hi Craigsub
Here're some speaker stands for ya!
Problem is they're more expensive than a pair of M50Tis.
Mapleshade.
Pretty cool.... possibly overkill...
... so I take it you guys are not going to get anal about speaker stands ?
Hmmm... Now where would the LP be with the speakers pointed up and out (or in) like that?
Looks like you would need to hang chairs up in the corners of the room. You can listen to the left track, switch chairs, and hit replay to hear the right track.
I won't be using LP's ...
...
They will be on stands, I just don't want to get done with thr review and have cries of "You didn't use the Acme dual drive, sand filled, exactly 31 inch high speaker stands, which means you could not have gotten optimum performance" ...
In reply to:
... so I take it you guys are not going to get anal about speaker stands ?
Nah! If the 22s don't fare well, we'll just blame it on your lousy choice of speaker stands.
Seriously, just be sure you isolate the speakers from the stands. Many stands come with small isolation pads.
I got a good deal on
this soundproofing mat. I got one linear foot (they actually sent me 16") by 48" wide, of their half inch thick mat for $24 shipped. It was pretty easy to cut. Just score the surface with a sharp implement (I used a box cutter), and use a good pair of scissors to cut it the rest of the way through. It does a good job.
Ok... I may stop by Best Buy and grab 4 stands this week... and a pair of cheap speakers since I am heisting the kid's so I can torture the 22's and ELT's ...
Another thing I will do is to pair them with a subwoofer...
What? No $500+ Mapleshade time corrected speaker stands?
I wondered if you were going to test them with a subwoofer. Do you have a subwoofer?
No Mapleshade stands... besides, they are too short...
...
Ah, but that's the idea. Mounted low and titled back, aiming the drivers up at the listener - with the tweeter further back than the drivers - correcting the problem caused by the higher frequencies otherwise arriving at the listener before the lower frequencies.
I find a martini also fixes that effect... and is much more enjoyable...
Only if you're stretched out on the carpet at an angle to the speakers so that your head is further from the tweets than the drivers.
This could be good... bookshelf speaker testing and yoga instruction...
We ARE a full service forum.
It is reassuring to see such devotion...
This thread is like reading text of a phone conversation.
In reply to:
so I take it you guys are not going to get anal about speaker stands ?
Highly unlikely on this forum craig.
Speaker stands, wire brands,
green hands, it doesn't matter.
Craig, I have my M22s raised about 18" above floor level, but among the experiments I tried was putting them directly on the floor and tilting them slightly back to have the tweeters pointing to ear level. I'd agree with 2x6 that they sounded fine, although I don't necessarily think that moving the tweeter back was the significant factor.
In reply to:
I find a martini also fixes that effect... and is much more enjoyable...
indeed!
Or some good scotch, or Guinness, or ...
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the RS150, just to confirm whether or not Curtis and I are nuts.
I also think if you're going to add another pair of speakers, the Ascend 340's really need to be part of this "bookshelf shootout".
dare we mention interconnects??
In reply to:
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the RS150, just to confirm whether or not Curtis and I are nuts.
In reply to:
LOL! Some people already think we are! But I have read enough about the RS150 and RS250 from others, combined with what we heard, I am pretty sure they are just very far from our liking.
As long as they're all the same -- to minimize any possible variation in sound -- the interconnects shouldn't matter.
For interconnects, I use Better Cables with the "bullet" connectors. AV123 has some stands they are sending me for the test, one pair for each speaker pair.
Mark Schifter is pretty enthused about this comparison... does anyone from Axiom ever peruse the sight ?
And Curtis, I would be happy to try a pair of Ascends in this... if they are interested !
An update... The ELT's have shipped, and are due Monday ...
Once everything is set up, I will post pics, so you guys will know the Axioms are not in the wood rack...he he
I'm sure everything will be on the up-and-up, but it does remind me of a personal watercraft shootout a magazine performed using manufacturer-supplied skis. Everybody sent factory spec skis - except Yamaha. Turned out later that Yamaha had souped up their entries (which, of course, smoked all the others in top speed and acceleration tests).
I think the Rocket is supposed to arrive today. He's running a thread over at the
HomeTheaterSpot, but nothing has been posted since the 14th.
Jack is right. And the speaker arrived today, and were set up tonight. Thanks to Mark Schifter for sending stands for both speakers. Right now I am playing songs from the Foutplay "Between the Sheets" Cd... lots everything... brass, guitar and bass guitar, drums...
These are both pretty darn good... no subwoofer hooked up now...
Craignosub!
I'm confused too Jack.
Craig - by my count you have at least 37 subs at your home. I'm guessing that sometime during this test, a sub may find it's way into the mix!
Yes, There are subs all over... though only 8 are here, not 37... I was actually going to ask you guys... more tests with or without subwoofers ?
The general consensus here is that bookshelf speakers should be used with a sub. But, that doesn't mean you can't do some measuring without a sub. I would think you'd want to do some tests without a sub. But then, I don't know what the shazbat I'm talking about.
Is shazbat sort of like shinola?
Jack... How hard do you really think it will be to convince me to fire a subwoofer up ?
Oh you young people!
Shazbat is an expletive that the character Mork (played by Robin Williams) used on the old TV show
Mork and Mindy I can't speak for others, but I always interpreted it as an uncensorable substitute for kaka. (Don't ask, Peter)
Oh I think it would be about as difficult as...........................................Jeez! I can't think of ANYTHING that easy.
How about Madonna in 8th grade... THAT is easy
ROTFLMAO! Did you know her in 8th grade? Interpret the word "know" as you choose.
Did not know her... in either meaning... but the concept of her being easy did not seem too far fetched...
Agreed. Wish I'd thought of it.
So... Which sub.. the Rocket ? PB2+ ? VTF 3 ? ...
I vote either the PB2+ or the VTF-3, but heck, it's up to you.
Jack... VTF-3 ... After I thought about it... a $1200 sub with $400 speakers...
Whatever! Wanna come to Cleveland and pickup my STF-2?
That would be a $400 speaker with a $400 sub.
If I come to Cleveland, we are drinking, my friend... You know... I do have an STF-1 from Hsu here... duh ! And I promised them a review...
That is the perfect match !
By Jove! I think he's got it! (I hope I don't catch it
) Pass the beer!
I understand that... there is some thought within the Catholic Church that hell is actually being forced to be me for 24 hours... it will feel like an eternity...
I think the STF-1 would be a great choice. What do you think Curtis?
He is pretty sure it will sound metallic...
JohnK and I have already established that, for anyone with any appreciation for quality music reproduction, hell is being locked in a small, reverberant, cement-walled cell with a Bose Wave Radio blaring Muzak.
Thought about... and yes... that sucks more than being me...
HEY, my dad loves his $400 dollar bose wave radio.. of course, he really loves tapioca pudding, and he thinks paul harvey is a god..
and he never really thought the whole, pre-sliced bread thing, was ever gonna work.. so he has been wrong, at least a couple of times in his life.
bigjohn
Eiicch.
This ten word max conversation is reading like phone tap text again.
We have the Big Acoustic Wave for the patio... it is ok... but for biz travel I have a Cambridge Soundworks Model 12... of course it has a real subwoofer... it is one kick ass little set up...
Man! You carry your own sound system when you travel? You are an audio junkie.
In reply to:
Chess...Martini...now
You buying?
Craig, as a relative newcomer here you may not be aware of the horrible punishment which Peter referred to and which the Pope has advised me is also one of the torments of purgatory.
This thread illustrates an application that I made of it. Incidentally, speaking of cruel punishment, I beg you to be more judicious in deciding whether to use the M-word, even when quoting others. Please understand that many of us react to it in a way similar to that of the Monty Python characters to the Knights Who Say Ni.
I've got a bottle of Beefeater's, some dry vermouth, and a jar of olives.
Well superb then.
I will give you my Paypal account and you can just hit the 'send money' option...and i will get right on top of that martini like that whole Madonna thing you were discussing earlier.
All over it.
Paul Harvey isn't a god?
My mother-in-law thinks so too. Is your dad married?
See ? Even if my review sucks... we have a burgeoning romance... Chess, this is even seventeen words.
Ok, I get it now: Paul HARVEY. For some reason I was thinking you meant Paul REUBENS.
It's threads like these that cry out for a live chat option...
In reply to:
I've got a bottle of Beefeater's, some dry vermouth, and a jar of olives.
Now your talkin'! The thought of it gives me goose bumps. BTW, the quote above sounds like the makings of a good country and western song.
Romance?
I don't think my wife would approve, but you can keep trying Craig.
It will take a heckuva alot more than 17 words though.
I hear there is a good state lottery happening this week...
In reply to:
the quote above sounds like the makings of a good country and western song.
You crazy Texans.
Chess... I was talking about Big John's Dad and MWC's Mom-in-Law ...
This entire thread is populated by alchys. (alkies? alchies?) Boozers!
Paul Rubens isn't a god?
Jack... I think the term you are looking for is Brown's fans...
I'm going to be in an office full of Texans tomorrow and the day after. Wish me luck. I'll use it to slip out to mwc's house for a "two non-conservatives in Texas" party.
In reply to:
I think the term you are looking for is Brown's fans...
If you weren't a Brown's fan also, I'd take offense at that. Even if you ARE correct.
In a Jag' no less. You lucky dog. I've never ridden in a Jaguar You might have to give me a ride in it...at least around the block.
In reply to:
Chess... I was talking about Big John's Dad and MWC's Mom-in-Law ...
Oh sure Craig, try to back out of it now eh?
Wow, did i ever get lost in all that posting.
Hell, it's a rental (2004 Jag X-type w/AWD and only around 350 miles on it), so if you're not a crazy maniac, I'll let you drive it.
Will that suffice instead of a bottle of wine?
Hmmm. Let me weigh the options: Drive a Jag or bottle O' wine. The scale is tipping heavily towards the Jag.
Define "crazy maniac"
I thought that in Texas it was legal to have open liquor in a vehicle. If that is true, drink the wine IN the Jag, well whoever is not driving that is.
It is a tradeoff. They both get to ride in the car but only the passenger can drink.
Sounds fair to me.
Good point. Wine cleans off of leather pretty easily, but it will stain the stitching.
Whasshat? Gimme drinksh...
In reply to:
I thought that in Texas it was legal to have open liquor in a vehicle.
Nope. We have "Open container" laws here. You go directly to jail without passing go if caught.
You mean you can have open containers in a car in Texas?
Heck, we can have open containers in Canada too. Would you get charged if the container held beans?
no chess, the 'open container' law states that you CANT have an open container in the vehicle.. its a new law, well, about 3 years old. used to, the people in fromnt could just pass the beer to the people in the back, not any more. and if you get an a$$hole cop, they can even give you a ticket if you have empty beer cans in the bed of your truck.. its still considered an 'open' container, and the bed of your truck is still considered 'in your vehicle'.. its a load of crap, but hey, what are ya gonna do.
mwc- sorry, my old man found him a new bride.. my folks got divorced 3 years ago, and my dad moved to arkansas and found him a mississippi river girl. they got married on top of an old school bus that has been converted into a bbq pig smoker.. then they had funnel cake, as their wedding cake, and retired to his 30 ft 5th wheel trailer for their honeymoon.. talk about hill-billy.. i swear, my family is a few beers and a phone call away from being on the springer show!!
and it is official, paul harvey is NOT god..
bigjohn
So, how does a guy recycle his beer cans in Texas? Rent a trailer?
You guys had me excited for a second. 61 new posts in one night...I thought maybe some speaker listening had happened. I should have known better. Craig's sub thread tend to end up like this as well. 1,000 posts of fun chatter with about 3 posts about the subs. (Three
good posts though.
Spiff - that is why lowroller is around... to summarize 12 thousand posts into something coherent...
We have decided to use the Hsu STF-1 for a subwoofer... tonight listening starts in a serious fashion. Results will be posted on the SPot...
I look forward to hearing your thoughts. What was the final showdown. Just the M22ti and the Rockets? I would love to have heard your thoughts on the Ascend 340's as well.
Spiff - I asked Curtis ... It would be great if they want to send a pair for review. I will try to get a pic up on the SPot tonight of the set up... the only problem with that site is the 50k size limit... pics are not very good there... grrrrrrrr...
will-
like i was saying, its only the 'small man syndrome' cops that will give the ticket for empties in the tailbed. unfortunately for me, i found him. but, to his credit, it was just a warning, but stupid rule just the same.
i havent recycled cans 'myself' in like 20 years. my dad would throw me into the dumpsters behind the college dorms and military barracks to get the goods.. i smelled like holy hell for about 4 months, but ended up with enough money to buy a new bike. a mongoose with red spider rims.. it was the bomb. coolest bike in the neighborhood, for at least a few weeks!!
geez, i hate when i end up hijacking like this.. i really dont mean to.. i am loking forward to the review also.. ya'll need to put the URL for this 'spot' place everyone keeps talkin about. this is the only forum that i go to..
bigjohn
Did you ask me about the Ascends? Even so....I do not own the company.
Oh Ford! He's from Texas. He'd never be able to find his way to the correct thread.
Here 'tis, y'all!
muchias gracias senor, te agradesco por tu tiempo..
tex/mex translation-- thank you very much sir.. i appreciate your time.
see you at the spot
bigjohn
As I had said before on the Spot...I'll gladly host some pics for you. Just send them to me, and I'll post them for you. (I'll resize, color correct, etc as well)
Curtis - Since you have "A moderator of tha Asend forum " .... etc... in your Sig, I figured you had some contacts...
Yeah...but the forum gets nothing from Ascend but some posts from them. Owned a operated by two owners of Ascend speakers...me and Smokey. All I do is moderate...Smokey does the hard stuff.
The only thing I ever got was to bring a pair CMT-340's to a shootout...but that is because I live close to their offices. There are many folks on the various forums that get "loaner" or discounted equipment to help promote them.....I am not one of them. It is obviously a nice perk though.
Heck...spiff just one a contest on the Ascend forum!
Oh...and my sig is there on those forums so people know of my possible bias.
Look up a thread on AVS about disclosure.....that is some good reading.
Ok... I will be totally inappropriate and mention the speakers here. So far, lots of Pink Floyd/Roger Waters, Stanley Clarke, David Sanborne, Steely Dan, and my son's video games... and these bookshelf pairs are damn good...
Last night, while listening to the SACD of "DOGS" (Roger water's SACD version) ... The canine barking was almost eerie... Not even the Klipsch match these two for clarity there...
When everything is done by the end of next week, I will post the whole review on the SPot... and someoone can link it over...
Waiting with bated breath!
Where you been? Thought you'd thrown us over for your wife and family. Silly me!
You know, I'm starting to not believe Spiff about the Rockets... From the lastest 2 reviews on them, they sound like they're pretty accurate.
To spiff's defense, the ELT CSe that Craig has are much different than the RS150 that spiff and I heard.
There IS the possibility that Spiff is right and I am tone-deaf...;)
After having your ears SUBjected to all that LFE, I wouldn't doubt it. WHAT? Speak up!
Hehhehheh... For max spl's, we do where hearing protection... in fact, one thing I have measured while watching movies... the typical SPL at the listening position is 70-75 dB, with 105 dB peaks... during effects
All,
I had listened to the original ELT's as well as the RS150's, RS250's, and RS550's in my original speaker quest. The ELT (even the original) sound very much different from the other Rocket lines. From what I can remember, the ELT does not use the Vifa (sp?) tweeter. My acoustic memory (although not the best) remembers lots of midrange but a blanket over the highs. The ELT sound more like what I was looking for but did not have as much midrange as I was needing...especially coming from NONE in the HTIB speaker set I had previously.
I am interested in the comparison as well although comparing the M22 to the RS150 (at a minimum) better yet the RS250 would be more apples to apples in my opinion as the ELT were specifically designed for HT use (again if memory serves me right).
Craigsub...enquiring minds want to know...
WhatFurrer
What... According to Mark Schifter, these ELT Cse'e have several changes from the older design, and they are planning on selling them as both home audio and home theater speakers...
Speaking of "Cse." Do you pronounce each individual letter, i.e. See Ess Eee, or is it one word like Hsu=sue; Cse=See.
This is starting to sound like an old Jack Benny/Mel Brooks routine.
Jack: Do you have a sister?
Mel(in a sombrero): Si!
Jack: What's her name?
Mel: Sue
From what I understand, the ELT CSe is the center channel from the current ELT system, turned on end, and in a rosewood cabinet. Is that correct Craig?
Close ... same drivers, but the speaker stays horizontal... making the mid and tweeter a vertical alignment
Really? So it is meant to be short and wide...not tall and skinny? Are you sure? That is not how I interpreted it from the AV123 board.
That would take up a lot of space on a sheff.....or even on stands if you had to maneuver around them, easier to knock off of stands.
I do think aligning the mid and tweet vertically is a better idea though.
Sounds like Bose 301s. NO! Not "SOUNDS" like Bose 301s. Sounds like it LOOKS like Bose 301s; short and wide. I'M sounding like Bose 301's; muddy and confused. No breakfast; low blood sugar.
Mark actually was adamant about that, he called me to make sure I had them laying down... Spiff has pictures of the layout, including both bookshelf speakers on stands, the STD-1, VTF-3, and the UFW-10 next to each other, and a picture of me standing next to the Onix Ref 3... THAT one should ruin appetites
oh no!!! Not an STD!!!
Now Curtis. Don't pick on the reviewer 'til AFTER the review. You know he meant STF not STD. (It was funny though, wasn't it)
I meant STD .... the little bitch gave me the clap when I put my arm in her port hole...
thought you had the THERE ... eh Curtis ?
Especially coming from the guy whose picture... oh, never mind.
Well....now you need STD-2 and 3.
Craig...this is the
thread that has pictures of the ELT Cse all vertical. So it is a bit confusing.
I'll get those pictures posted as soon as I can. I'm CRAZY busy right now!
Spiff - No hurry... being busy is a good thing ...
Curtis... No need to be confused... You saw what Steve posted before Mark decided they should be horizontal, I assumed that too... until he called.
Nice fell, by the way.
Yes...I recently had the chance to talk to Mark on the phone...very nice man.
It has been a couple of days... I have been posting on the SPot... These are two fantastic values !
Figured you were spending time with your family. I assume you do that once or twice a year.
Ok Wise guy... I even set up the kids with one of the Hsu subs in the family room today... They are now happy watching Titan AE there, too ! How many Dads do THAT ?
Hey guys - where is the thread on the Spot where this comparison is being done?
Well! That's above and beyond the call of duty. I mean, I'd tell 'em to get their own sub!
Ray3...Jack provided a link here earlier ... it is under forums, the SPot for you, The Review SPot...
Jack - My kids are spoiled... When I was a kid, if you wanted a subwoofer, you had to build one ...:)
Ray!
Here ya go.
Craig: Oh sure! And I suppose you walked 5 miles to school every day...........uphill.............BOTH WAYS!
Thanks for the link guys. BTW Craig, in reading your post, I came across the part where your wife measured the distance of your ears from the ground. Rather than getting into a techno babble discussion about ear specs and their impact on SACDs, I was wondering if the ear measuring thing is something I should work into my calibration process with my SPL meter. {smile}
Aside from that, I never had my wife measure my ears from the floor. Is this something that an older guy might find, shall swe say, scintillating and worhty of a test run?
BTW - Somewhere in my wanderings, I seem to remember that you may be located in Erie. If so, Jack and I have you sandwiched with a couple of other garden spots (Cleveland and Rocehster). I mention this because walking uphill both ways to school would have included "through 2 feet of snow".
Ray, and also don't forget that we were too poor to afford shoes.
Don't forget to tell them about going to school so hungry you had to eat glue when you got there...
Did we have wheels back then?
It is official, The Axiom forum is warped... and guys, My ears are the only thing I have guts enough to let my wife near with a tape measurer...
Rochester... neat town. I lived on the Pittsford/Perinton border in the late 80's... right off Rte 31...
Cleveland has... well... ummmmmmm... the Barons ?
and I happen to LIKE glue !
The review is done... Jack has a link posted here...
Here is a link to the last page of Craig's thread which has his review at the bottom of the page.
Craig's Review
I liked the review, but don't really agree with the description of the M22's soundstage. I don't doubt that that's what Craig heard in his room, but in my room (13'x12', sitting about 8' away from speakers that are toed-in slightly), the soundstage easily reaches out to the walls with some material. Often the soundstage is so wide and deep, that it sounds like my surrounds are playing even though I'm listening in Stereo mode.
Just nitpicking.
I don't honestly remember the width of the soundstage of my M22ti's, but certainly the M60's are like that. Nearly every single person who has ever come over for a listen walks up to the QS8's and checks to see if they're on.
In reply to:
"Often the soundstage is so wide and deep, that it sounds like my surrounds are playing even though I'm listening in Stereo mode."
I have experienced the same phenomenon with both M22s and my current M60s. Though I don't have the answer, I've always wondered if I wasn't getting reflections off the side walls.
I do that every time I go over to Peter's and he's listening in 2 channel. Damn, but those speakers are good!
Maybe, if Craig had his 22s closer to the side walls, he would've experienced a wider sound stage as we do. Maybe not.
I have no doubt that room reflections have something to do with it. To be fair, though, I once propped big pillows on the walls where the primary reflections would bounce and still heard the enveloping effect.
Nah, if you've seen Peter's setup, he's got them pretty much in the middle of the room (between the walls.) I'd say they're about 6 ft away from the side walls.
Rats! Wrong again!
Could be any number of things in the room. Maybe he didn't have them pulled out far enough or something.
Ken, the room is only 12' wide. They're about 3 to 3.5' away from the side walls.
I've never been good at estimating...Probably why I hated linear algebra and multivariable calculus!
Good thing I didn't say 6-8 ft, eh?
This is why I get the big bucks guys... now think this through...
1. I said the soundstage stayed within the speakers.
2. I also said there was no hole in the soundstage.
3. This means that, of course, if you move the speakers wider, the soundstage will follow suit (smiley face goes here) ...
Eh, we're just nitpicking. It was a great review. Good points, though...
Yeah, but what we're saying here is that, in our rooms, it has been our experience that the sound stage extends OUTSIDE the speakers. For example: speakers 6 feet apart; soundstage 8 feet wide.
Actually (and Jack can confirm this...hehheh), after my first experience on the Hsu forum... nothing seems bad.
This is at least tied for first for being the funniest forum...
Jack... I just thought of something, I had the M22i's toed in a bit... that added to the depth of the soundstage... it may have narrowed it a bit, too.
Actually, as long as we are on the Axiom forum, I will tell you the biggest problem I see with the M22i's... anyone game ?
You know that nobody here is pickin' on you. Your experience in your room is absolutely valid as is your opinion.
And I would remind all that though you preferred the Cses, you had good things to say about the Axioms. What are gonna say, "No Craig. You didn't prefer the Cses"?
You are right. The HSU forum was a toughie, but the AVS was brutal.
Can't speak for others here but as far as I'm concerned fire away. I'd rather hear you honest opinions, than be schmoozed with BS.
LMAO ... AVS made going to work seem like a relief...
My biggest weakness with the M22i... If I was not going to put them in an entertainment center (per the wife's orders) ... instead of $400 for speakers, $150 for stands, and $500 for a decent sub... I would go for the M-80's...especially for music...
I would (being redundant here) also likely prefer the Axioms with a softer amp... If I had one here, I would use it...
Craig,
Your Pittsford/Perinton location is about 3 miles from me. Small world.
Ray - Do you know where The Oaks sub-division is ? about 1/4 mile east of 490 on 31 ?
Good point. There are a few here who have the M80s without any sub or surrounds for just that purpose (music alone). The only reason to go the other way is the versatility for home theater, and room (space) constraints.
You betcha. We actually looked in there before deciding to build a home off Ayrault near the high school (1988).
Interesting comment, craigsub. I use a pair of M22 like Michaura M55s, with a 5 wpc integrated SET tube amp and a Titanic Vance Dickason 10" sub. These speakers use the same 5.25" drivers as the M22s but instead of a 1" titanium tweeter, use a 3/4" titanium tweeter, much like the one on the previous generation M2Ti. Soundstage? Enormous! High, wide and deep. (Bigger than with the M3Tis which are no slouches).
Of course, I attribute these qualities to the tube output CDP (AH!) and the Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix Plus speaker wires. Just kidding, but about the high, wide and deep - not kidding. I think, the room plays as much a part in this effect as anything else. Anyway, if you're in Southern California, bring your stuff over here and try it out with some nice tube gear and a room blessed with great acoustical properties.
Ray - That Wegman's at the intersection of 31 and 250 was my savior... I was single then, and am a terrible cook... they had everything...
Jack... One thing that makes the M-80's so compelling... if Axiom can do this will for $400.... in something this small... what must the 80's be like... If I get the chance, somewhere around here, I have a ten year old NAD receiver.... I may fire up the M22i's with it just for fun...
2x6 ... If you can say the name of those cables three times fast, do you get a prize ?
That system sounds pretty cool... I got out of tubes last year when I bought the McIntosh... once the kids get past the stage where I need bulletproof stuff... Tubes will return.
Well I have the M60s, which are generally considered to sound basically the same as the 80s, but won't play as loud. to see what I think of my 60s read my first post on
this page. It's not long. And don't forget, I'm biased
No cracks about my misspelling
FOURPLAY. I've already been abused for it
Jack... Well written post and mini review... Have you notice the title song on Between The Sheets is the worst on the disc...? GREAT disc though.
And you are not biased... Bias means a preconceived notion or idea you have and that nothing will change your mind....
Didn't notice. I was so amazed at how well mastered the CD was, I was too busy floating around the room.
That is an image.... Jack floating...
Old guys float just like young guys.
Craig;
Great review. Even though I am sure some here are disappointed that the Rockets came out on top in your review, you did state what all of us here believe...that Axioms are among the best speaker values on the planet.
I have never heard M22's, but I must also strongly assert that the soundstage on my M60's at times, with well recorded material, seems to be a 180 degree arc. I have had the same experience as others here of having to get up and make sure the surrounds were off. This was especially evident with the new high resolution release of Alan Parsons' "I Robot".
Craig, would it be possible for you to experiment with the positioning of the M22's and see if you can find a speaker position that results in a wider soundstage?
Mark
Mark - I would not necessarily say that either speaker came out on top, as much as I would say the ELT's are more of what I prefer in a speaker, in this room, with this system.
I will try the Axioms in a more open room, and can tell you they had every bit as wide a soundstage as did the Infinities, in fact, the ELT Cse's were the first speaker in this room to throw as wide a stage...
I would also wager that the owners/designers of each speaker would largely concur with the review... afterall, the M22i is intended for home theater, or at least that is what I was told when buying them... and they are really good at handling movie soundtracks.
I would like it if someoone from Axiom WOULD comment on the review... feedback is good.
And I am still holding out hope that Axiom will make an ultimate speaker... for the floorstander shootout as spiffnme suggested on the SPot
In reply to:
I am still holding out hope that Axiom will make an ultimate speaker...
They do...It's called the M-60Ti
Mark
Just representin' my Axioms
How about the odd shape of the CSE ET? Where is it supposed to go with a shape like that? I understand it is a new product, have they actually sold any of those?
I've never heard the M22, but I did hear 2x6's Michaura M55s and they are sweet! Maybe the powers-that-be at Axiom need to fatten up the M22s?
You can stand the ELT on end and it keeps most of the performance... and is about the same size and shape as the M22i ... And for the ultimate speaker... If Axiom can make the M-80 for $1100... imagine what their $2500 speaker would be ?
In reply to:
imagine what their $2500 speaker would be?
out of my price range, for one.
I think making a $2500 speaker would run contrary to Axiom's mission...that is to make the finest speakers possible at an affordable price point. One could argue that Axiom already makes a fine $2500 speaker...it's called the M-80, but since middlemen don't get rich off of it, it only costs $1100. I'm not sure that throwing more money at a speaker design would appreciably improve the sound.
Mark
$1000 worth of veneers would put it at $2100.
One other thing about the Axiom/Rocket comparison: craigsub could not have picked a worse artist than Alannis Morissette to demo Axioms. I never loved her on my old stuff (wife has her first CD), but on my Denon/Axiom system she is absolutely unlistenable. I took her CD out of the magachanger it's so bad. So shrill, so brittle, so angry.
Who wants to pay thousands of dollars to hear an angry, man-hating woman's voice amplified throughout the house? I can get that effect for free any time I want.
I'm on the floor Mark.
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Mark - I totally agree that the M-80 is a nice $2500 speaker for $1100... This means they can also build a nice $6000 speaker for my $2500... Just because I can afford the $2500 does not mean I don't want a bargain ... hehheh
Jack... Last night you were floating, now you are on the floor ? Are you ok ?
Well, like everyone else, I have my ups and downs.
YOU MEAN TO TELL ME ... You had them 8 feet apart and you say 13 feet away ... AND toed them in ???
Well that explains it!!!
You were getting a gross over of sound from the left speaker to your right ear and vice versa . No wonder the soundstage stayed between the speakers . You were hearing everything in reverse
Petre, to put your musician's mind at rest... I even read the "pro" reviews on the M22's ... In both cases, the reviewer agreed with you in that the width of the soundstage was wider than the speakers, they also said that the depth was disappointing and shallow.
By using a slight toe-in, I achieved an excellent balance between width and depth. If you note, I was very positive about the depth of the speaker. They also noted the speakers were tilted up in the treble, and likely to get harsh in a large room (their words, not mine). I have a large room.
Also, while I admire the fact you are a musician, there is something no musician will seem to acknowledge... you have NO idea what the music sounds like when you are on on stage. That is why orchestras have conductors and Rock and large Jazz bands sound engineers (I was one for years)... We make you guys sound GOOD to the people listening.
I treat a speaker or subwoofer the same way I do a singer... get the best sound possible from that component or individual...
I agree that the depth is "shallower" than some , but not much. I get a very wide sound stage and a 3 dimensionality that's forward (as you saw) and extends to the back wall .(I keep them about 3 feet from the back wall .)
I still say you'd have benefited greatly by spacing them further apart. 8 feet apart 13 feet away is just too tight IMO. I personally think the triangle should be more equilateral . I also think these speakers sound better facing forward , not toed in. Just my opinion though.
As a musician ... I can fully understand that we don't know how it sounds from the audience perspective . That's what the mixing/sound engineer is for. But I do know the audience perspective too ... as do you . I also know what live instruments sound like.
So when I hear a speaker that makes lets say ... a triangle (Which should really ring) or Chimes (Which should sparkle) sound lightly muffled ... it's off my list right then and there.
You hear people cry bright when cymbals CRASH ... and I think to myself ... that's what they do ... you want them to hit the cymbals with a pillow ?!?
Isn't the whole debate on what something (live intruments) sounds like really 'relative' to where/what/when/why/blah anyway, its jsut always going to be different. This greyness continues into the realm of speakers and actually throughout life as we know it.
Inane - You are quite correct. Somewhere in the 200 posts I did between these two speakers, I did say the Axioms are more of a "You are in the front row" sound, vs. the ELT's being in the "You are in the 15th row" sound.. Which is also why I did not declare a "winner", but rather said I prefer the ELT's and why... and also said the Axioms would also be a great choice, especially for those who want a more forward sound.
I'm suprised this comparison was not posted in the Rockets forum .
I just demoed the M-22's to a great guy... He bought a PB2+ from me, and has Martin Logan mains, and wants to upgrade his surrounds... He should be registering here... I think, for 6 channel surround, he should look at the M3i's for the surround channels.
Jack - He lives in Cleveland, so I told him a bit about you ...
Petre, It was posted on the Rocket site... and HTF, HTS ... and I have also had three PM's from guys looking at Axiom speakers... all 3 ordered...
In reply to:
I just demoed the M-22's to a great guy... He bought a PB2+ from me, and has Martin Logan mains, and wants to upgrade his surrounds... He should be registering here... I think, for 6 channel surround, he should look at the M3i's for the surround channels.
Craig, If you demo your Axioms for someone, and he/she orders, Axiom will send you a check. I don't know how the procedure works, since I've never done it. But, I would suppose that the buyer would have to confirm that you demoed your speakers. Nor, am I sure of the check amount, but I think it's 5% of the speaker price. Don't hold me to that though. Maybe someone who has demoed, and had a sale, will chip in.
In reply to:
Jack - He lives in Cleveland, so I told him a bit about you ...
Good! I hope he introduces himself as the fellow you demoed for, so we know.
Jack - I saw the affiliate program, and if he does order the Axioms, I will see about getting the 5% and sending it to him (I will check to see if they would allow him the 5% as a discount)... His name is George... he is 30 years old, and a really nice fella... I appreciate any help you guys can give him...
Just encourage him to say hello, and ask away. We'll be glad to help as much as we can. Did he drive over to Erie from Cleveland to hear your speakers?
He was coming up to pick up the subwoofer... and we got to talking about his surrounds... and what he was looking for in surrounds... so I fired up the Axioms...
By the way... they sound amazingly good in the entertainment center with the VTF-3 on bass...
I'm stunned that they sound good on their sides, and inside an EC. Ya learn something new......