Help! Sorry if this is answered in previous posts, but I want to know how to get subs in stereo? I've got two Hsu VTF-2 currently. Please let me know how to do this. Also, will this effect my home theater set-up? Thanks for your suggestions.
Hello
There are 2 ways to get stereo output from your subs:
1. Buy a receiver/processor which has stereo pre-outs for the subs;
2. Buy an Outlaw ICBM-1 bass management module which allows you to set the cross over frequencies for each of your speaker positions - center, front L/R, Surround L/R, Back and gives you stereo pre outs for your subs.
I just ordered a second Vtf-2 and will be hooking it up with an ICBM.My question is where is the best location for the second sub.I thought I read somewhere about stacking them.This is 2 channel only
You could try to stand your speakers atop your subs.
what the heck.. go ahead and put your receiver on top of them also.
it must be nice to have 2 HSU's, when some of us are still trying to get our first.
bigjohn
In reply to:
You could try to stand your speakers atop your subs.
For a time, I had my M22s on top of dual NHT slave subs. It worked great! In fact, although I have an all together different system in the main listening room, I'm holding on to the M22s and the NHTs for perhaps a future application because they sounded so sweet together.
wid,
Dr. Hsu recommends co-locating the subs to avoid bass cancellation issues.
For you guys that have two subs, why not just one bigger sub? Do you really want that "stereo" effect with the low notes? With bass below 100hz....localization is tough.
Co-locating? I got my subs a year apart from one another.Instead of selling the one vtf-2 I got another.Plus I did talk to Dr. Hsu he gave me a relly good deal on the second one.It is the older vtf(b stock)model like the one I already have.As far as putting my speakers atop the subs I really dont think that will work I have M 80's.
Co-locating = putting them both in the same corner either next to or on top of each other. Minimizes cancellation issues, maximizes output (6db increase compared to one sub).
I have 2 subs stacked. I don't care to have stereo subs for 2 reasons:
cancellations
I use a 60hz crossover for movies, 40 hz for music
Stacking works better than side-by-side placement also.
OK, ,so maybe stereo subs aren't advisable. Yes?
Now another question please. I currently stack both subs. Should both of the Hsu VTF-2 be tuned identical? Currently, I have them as one of each. My thought was one would be good for HT and the other for music, Is this true? Thanks for your input.
So do you turn one off for music and vice versa? If not, I think you'd be better off tuning them the same as you want them to "sing" in unison.
I am also going to stack the 2 vtf'2s.Have you listen to one sub then both right after?If so which way sounds best to you.If running 2 subs is such a bad idea why then does Hsu offer the dual powered TN1220 subs, would'nt make much sense would it .I am going to use both for music.Seeing I am using an Outlaw ICBM it does have 2 sub outs and a mono or stereo switch for doing just that.
Question.
Why would two stereo subs located at roughly the same location as my mains cancel each other any more then the woofers in my mains would cancel each other?
I have not noticed any cancellation in the main speaker woofers?
Just a thought
I was thinking the same thing.
Sinusoidal sound wave (actually any sinusoidal wave) is fully described by 3 parameters - amplitude, frequency and phase angle. When two sound waves of same frequency combine we use vector addition. The magnitude of each vector is the amplitude and angle between the two is the phase angle difference. A sound wave in the room will get reflected by different surfaces many times and combine with itself many times, and each time it will be a vector (phase-dependent) sum. For example when bass leaves the speaker half of it goes back and half forward, the part going back gets reflected by the wall and recombined with the other half of itself but with a phase delay. At least for some frequency this phase delay will exactly equal half wavelength (that is 180 degrees, that is inverse amplitude in-phase) and this will cause near-complete cancellation (for complete cancellation the two waves would have to be EXACTLY of same amplitude) or a NULL, at that frequency. For all other frequencies whether the reflected wave will add or subtract from the direct one will depend on relative phase angle, which will be different for all frequencies because different frequencies have different wavelengths and the physical distance from your speaker to wall is a constant. You can see then that bass response can be nothing but a rollercoaster.
This is a good time to take a break and think about why we do not have this problem with other frequency ranges such as midrange or treble? The reason is that at those frequencies the distance from speaker to the wall cannot really be expressed in terms of phase angle. The wavelength are so short that for any different point on the wall the small change in distance (distance to speaker, or to your ear) will result in large phase difference, so the phase angle of the reflected sound is going to be different for different parts of the wall and on the average the response thus will be smooth. The trouble begins at about 150 - 200 hertz and below.
It is bad enough that you have all the walls and floor and ceiling and sound reflected from each of these surfaces combines vectorially with direct sound, but in fact the situation is much worse. After the sound is reflected once, and reaches another surface it will get reflected again, and again and again and again. Thus at some frequencies you will get "standing waves." Standing waves are waves endlessly reflected back upon itself but in the opposite direction - note I did not say opposite phase, but opposite direction. You CANNOT in fact define relative phase of two waves at all points if they're not traveling in the same direction - what you get instead (in a standing wave) is that the relative phase of the waves traveling back and forth is different for any different point in space, but constant with time. Thus you get regions of reinforcement (nodes) and regions of cancellation (antinodes) spread all over your room. Why does this make the situation so much worse? Because it becomes impossible to equalize bass response flat for more than a single point in the room. You can place a microphone at a certain point, measure the response and equalize it flat, then you can take two steps in any direction and response there will be nowhere near flat again.
Lets summarize briefly then. We have anomalies due to reflection of back wall and such which determine how well the speaker couples at a certain frequency to the room; these effects will be felt across entire room, they can be equalized successfully if you're equipped for the job. But then you also have the standing waves that affect different points in the room differently and you can only equalize them for a single location, such as where your head is.
There are even more problems though. Standing waves store energy. Energy storage "smears" signal in time domain, so basically a transient that was supposed to be short and sharp can become long and not even a transient at all but an oscillation. And then it gets worse yet again. By equalizing these standing waves you can achieve flat response of the total of stored and direct sound energy, but because energy is not stored at all frequencies you will in fact create hills and valleys in the response of both direct and stored energy when they are considered separately.
Now you should understand why people use bass traps. Bass traps try to fight the standing waves. We will not discuss bass traps here though, because this topic is too large.
Finally walls, floor and ceiling all flex from the bass and thus both store and absorb bass energy, not just reflect it - but the effects of reflection are stronger.
You should have guessed by now that it is impossible to predict room gain with any degree of accuracy, its best to just use parametric EQ after the speaker is built. Graphic equalizer, even 31 band, is not well suited for this job. The fear of equalizers in signal path that most people have is not founded in anything - the signal is fed through an equalizer many times during mixing and mastering of the recording anyway; maybe in a few years the studios will be equipped to perform all operations and transfer data losslessly, strictly in digital domain, but it has not happened yet.
Many people will give you advices such as "in a small room use sealed speaker." They thus assume that they can guess at room transfer function and have the speaker match its inverse; you should see this logic is flawed.
Dipole and Cardioid speakers interact with room differently, but this topic is already treated on another website, namely linkwitzlab.com. The only thing I want to add to the treatment given there is that Linkwitz is a little biased towards dipoles; he has not convinced me that dipoles are much better than cardioids for example.
Would they not only cancel each other out if they are out of phase?
Not if they're all in the same phase but out of phase from what the receiver expects.