Honey, I need a little space

Posted by: oz350z

Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 10:20 AM

As most of you already know from earlier posts I am interested in setting up a stereo only listening room. If i should go with Axioms I am on the fence between M60's which I recently auditioned and the M80's. I would prefer not to have to add a sub to the system if I can get away with out it. When I listened to the M60's I thought the bass was pretty good. But since I want to avoid adding a sub if I can, I want every bit of bass I can get. This would suggest the 80's. I listen to all kinds of music. I know with my room size I can go with either model. I need some help from all you M80 owners. My main concern with the m80's are posts I have read about them .being difficult to place. I have heard contrasting stories from 8 inches from the wall to 4 ft. If you could just describe you experiences on your set up. Your room size and description / characteristics (bright or flat)?
Your distance off the wall?
Did you find them problematic?
Do you think the amount of extra bass was worth it?
I know some of this information is out there. I have done many searches but the search engine seems a little squirrely and the information semms scattered about many different threads. Please keep in mind that I would like your personal experiences not here say. I know my room and my electronics would be fine with either set. I just don't want them 4 ft into the room.
Thanks
oz
Posted by: audiofan

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 01:29 PM

First, how big is your room.

Mine is 12'x14'. I have M60 and it has more than enough bass, unless you want to have very heavy bass.

I place M60 2' from back wall and 1.5' from side wall. Both speakers are 9' apart. Since my room is almost square,i have to treat my room with bass trap and acoustic panel. My system also connected to power conditioner. THe whole thing makes M60 sings. The bass is tight and strong for most of types of music i'm listening (jazz, classical, pop, dance...)

If you have a bigger room, then M80 is better, even though i haven't listened to it , but based on the spec, M80 will be louder than M60.
Posted by: oz350z

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 01:59 PM

My room is bigger. 13 or 14 x 20, open on 2 sides to other areas of the house, and 2 stories high. I liked the 60's but I might want that little bit more bass. If it is noticable enough.
oz
Posted by: alan

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 02:09 PM

Hi oz350z,

Placement of any large floorstanding speaker capable of extended deep bass output is always trickier than a bookshelf speaker. The latter are easy because 1)they don't have deep bass output 2) by virtue of their size, they are usually on stands or shelves, which keeps the woofers well away from the floor, so boundary reinforcement is minimized.

The M80 does have greater bass extension, and more bass output overall than the M60s, as you would expect from a larger and deeper enclosure. A floorstanding speaker by virtue of its deeper bass extension will be influenced by boundary reinforcement from the floor and the walls behind. So with the M80, it depends on your room's dimensions and where you are planning to put them. You do need to experiment to find the location that will result in smooth, deep bass output that isn't excessive. My own M80ti's are about 10 inches out from the wall behind and well away from corners. In my 19 x 13 x 9.5 ft living room, the bass is smooth and deep and perhaps a bit stronger than I want, but the setup isn't ideal (I have other Axioms on a switcher in the same room).

I'd suggest keeping them a foot or more away from the wall behind and certainly away from corners. But that's advice I'd given anyone on placing any decent floorstanding speaker capable of extended deep bass output.

Regards,
Posted by: alan

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 02:14 PM

Hi,

The increased bass output of the M80s over the M60s is immediately noticeable on A/B comparisons. It goes a bit lower and there's more of it. And of course, the extra two drivers give it huge power handling--very clean sound at extremely high SPLs--if you want to drive them with a big 250 watt-per-channel power amp.

I'd describe my room as "normally furnished"--upholstered furniture, area rugs, bookcases, no draperies. Neither too absorptive nor too reflective.

Regards,
Posted by: oz350z

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 02:39 PM

Hi Alan
Thanks for the reply. My room is about 13 x 20 but open on two sides to other areas and two stories high. One of the things I was curious about after looking at the specs on the two speakers was why the bass response was better on the 80 since they both have 2 6.5 woofers. I thought how different
could it be. The additional drivers would be in the mid and the extra tweeter. But if I understand you post correctly it is the cabinet volume that produces the increased bass? It that true or is there some crossover magic going on?

10 to 14 inches seems reasonable I could probably live with that. I have no problem keeping them off the side walls. I probably could provide 2 or 2 1/2 ft. Let me ask you this. The speakers may end up on a wall with each speaker standing in front of windows. The windows have medium wheight drapes which
could be closed when listening. Do windows cause any problems? Other than the usual UV and heat factor that is?
Posted by: alan

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 04:01 PM

Hi Oz,

Yep, you can't get around the laws of physics. No magic is involved. If you keep the driver diameter constant and increase the internal cabinet volume, then you get deeper bass extension. In a ported (bass-reflex) system, you can "tune" the system and adjust the port size for greater extension. I'm simplifying here because there are many different trade-offs in getting deep bass extension. However, that's a given: You have to increase the enclosure volume to get deeper bass.

I noticed you have two-storey ceilings. I'd absolutely recommend you get the M80ti's. The greater internal volume of your room should simplify placement somewhat. The drapes (open or closed) would increase or decrease, respectively, the "liveness" (reflection or absorption) of the room.

Regards,
Posted by: michael_d

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 04:47 PM

Oz,

I like bass, and lots of it. When I’m in the mood to hear some loud and obnoxious metal, I want to “feel” the bass. That being said, when I first got the 80’s, I was running them off the HK 7200. I just couldn’t shake this nagging feeling that I needed more bass, so I bought the LF-1. Problem was solved. Then I bought the Rotels, and the bass was almost too much. I’m not imagining this either. I could immediately tell a difference is SQ and bass extension, right along with more clarity throughout the highs, mids and lows. So to experiment further, I turned the sub off and didn’t feel as if anything was missing. I then turned the tone controls to the L1 position and definitely negated the need for the sub. I’ve since then been running the tone controls flat, and have the sub running a very low crossover of 45. The volume is also down from 7, to 5. I could easily live without it, but keep it, well, because I have it. And it does add to the overall sound some, but not enough to make me feel the need for it anymore.

For placement, I screwed around with the 80’s and moved them back and forth, in and out and toed in / out for a day. While I could detect some minor differences, they went back to where they looked natural in the room. They’re about 10” away for the fireplace, 2’ or so away from any corners, and 8’ apart. My living area is 28’ X 32’ with vaulted ceilings, 22’ high. Everything is wood, with lots of big windows. I wouldn’t fret over placement or whether the 80s have enough bass. You’ll be a happy camper.

Posted by: oz350z

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 06:27 PM

Thanks Mike, that is the kind of information I need. My room is a little smaller but open to kitchen /breakfast room on one side and foyer entry on the other side. My fire place is 2 story stone all the way up with windows flanking either side of the fireplace. I was think of the speakers in front of the windows and flanking the fireplace. I wasn't worried about if the 80's would have bass. I was worried about them having too much presence in the room if they had to be out as far as some people here have implied. WAF in the main thing there. For me I wouldn't care if they were 6 ft Avant Garde horns in the corner. Music is everything.

I also appreciate your reply in the other thread. I did respond to that and at the end asked if you wouldn't mind looking for this thread and giving some feedback. Looks like that other reply didn't go out somehow. (user error) No longer have any concerns about the ssss problem. Unless the M80 are dramatically different from the M60's which after reading you post sounds like it is not a major issue. Sounds like we have very similar taste in music. Love jazz and blues and classical but I relly listen to everything. Thanks again for taking the time.


I know there are a lot of other M80 owners out there. Please feel free to chime in here with your experience.
Posted by: Wid

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 06:52 PM

Oz,

I have the M80s in a similar size room as yours but the ceiling height is only 7.5'.My 80s are 18" from the back wall 2.5' from the side walls and toed in just slightly.I Listen to classic rock,blues and a little jazz here and there,and imo the 80s sound just great in this setup.

I do believe you will be pleasently suprised just how much bass you get from them.You could defintly get by without a sub,for music only.Even though they have a high sensitivty rating they really do like the power put to them.I too run them with a Rotel RB 1080 @ 300 watts @ 4 ohm.Looking at how you will have them set up I see no problems with placement.
Posted by: bugbitten

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 08:46 PM

My 80s are about 9 inches from the wall toed in and 15 feet apart. 2 foot from closest corner. 13.5 x 28 x 8 room with speakers on the long wall. No placement problems. Great sound, highs to lows.
Posted by: Wid

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 09:21 PM


I forgot to mention I have mine 8 ft. apart.
Posted by: oz350z

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 10:07 PM

wid and Doug
Thanks for posting. It's looking like I can get away with the 60 or the 80. Alan recommends the 80's because of the 2 story ceiling height. I have been taking some measurements and it looks like they will be 9 or 10 feet apart without getting too close to the corners. Also 10 feet out to the listening area will work with room asthetics. Looks like I'll have to save a while longer to get my speakers. Maybe the speaker showdown will happen by then. I don't want to wait till November but if I have to it will make a nice birthday present.
Thanks again
oz
Posted by: bugbitten

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/05/05 11:29 PM

My Show Down
Posted by: oz350z

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/06/05 08:00 AM

Doug

Thanks for the link to your show down. Very good information. I had run across that in my searches. As a matter of fact that is one of the posts that made me think they would be the right speaker for a music only system like I'm planning.
later,
oz
Posted by: bridgman

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/06/05 08:07 AM

One thing worth mentioning... when people complain about the M80s being difficult to place, the main issue is that if you have them too close to the wall you can get too much bass because of the wall reinforcement.

If you are looking for bass then I don't think you are going to have a problem. With my M40s and M60s I find that moving them towards and away from the wall almost act like a bass control -- 8" away from the wall gives more bass than I like, 24" away from the wall gives less bass than I like, and somewhere in between is "just right". Then again, I'm one of those people who gets bugged by having too much bass. Other people -- same speakers, same room -- would push them in so they are 6" from the wall and say "well, the bass is still kinda weak but... ".

Then again, these are the same people whose car stereos announce their arrival from a block away
Posted by: oz350z

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/06/05 08:36 AM

John

Good point. I noticed that when I borrowd my friends Vienna Acoustic Bach's. This is a small two way floorstanding speaker. When I first set them up I had them to far away from the rear wall. So I pushed them in to about 8 inches from the wall and all of a sudden they came to life. It was not a bad little speaker. Pricey for what you get and they still could use a sub to support the bottom end. Pretty cabinets though.
oz
Posted by: alan

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/06/05 10:03 AM

Bridgman, Oz,

Nice explanation--"almost like a bass control". Exactly, and the distances away from the wall that you cite parallel my own experience with the M80s.

Oz: When I say that the difference in deep bass extension and output is "immedately audible" on A/B comparisons, it is--but it is not a "dramatic" difference. I just think your big room volume could nicely accommodate the M80ti's output, and that you'd really appreciate the deep bass.

Regards,
Posted by: newf

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/08/05 08:49 AM

I would have to agree with alan, get the 80's for that room. I have the 80's on a carver power amp, and in a temp room while I'm fighting with plaster/drywall in the media room to be. The temp room is small, only 14 wide my 11 long, but it is open to the kitchen, hall etc. MY 80's are about 10"-12" away from the wall in all directions. The bass amazed me the 1st time I heard them, and I was used to hearing cerwin vega d9's, 350watt and good ole 15"woofers.

Well, the vega's are going up for sale as soon as I can afford another set of 80's or 60's to go in that room because I am not missing anything from them. I have a hsu vtf3 sub, I bought it thinking that the 80's wouldn't have enough bass for music compared to the cv's. Of course, I ordered the sub before I had the 80's. Well, ironically, the 80's showed up at the house first, and while I love the vtf3 for movies, I turn it off most times for music. The 80's are just fine without a sub.

My only compplaint about them, and it isn't really even a compliant, is that you need to get a good 4 ohm amp to drive them. MY cv's were 4 ohm as well, so I'm used to it, but nowadays, good cheap and new 4 ohm amps aren't everywhere.

I'll add this as well. Get the 80's as far apart as you can. The imaging really opens up.


btw, nice car



Posted by: F107plus5

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/08/05 10:06 AM

This brings up an interesting question:

When talking about distances to a wall changing the bass; is it a Mountain and Muhammad sort of thing?

I mean, is it conceivable to make a movable but large and inert baffle to place behind the speaker to simulate the proper distance to a wall?

My speakers are pretty well "locked" in position about 26" from the wall and(horrors)inside of cabinets!! But if I can fool the speakers into thinking they were closer.....


Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/08/05 11:51 AM

Let me put it this way--my wife noticed a huge difference when we adjusted the position of the speakers. Hell, she noticed more of a difference than me. Of course, this all could be placebo. That's an interesting thought....
Posted by: F107plus5

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/08/05 12:21 PM

I notice a bit of a difference when I pull the speakers foreward a few inches, but that puts them even Farther from the wall......!!!

I get fewer "Fireplace Effects" when they're out, and a bit better imaging. But the bass is, of course, still anemic since I've got them, at that point, almost three feet from the wall

I also wonder what constitutes "The Wall"? Is it a massive area behind the speaker, or just a few port diameters of inert "something" immediately(X inches)behind the port?

I also wonder if it's better reflective or absorptive?

Yeah, kinda interesting indeed! Gotta do some research and 'sperimenting
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/08/05 08:24 PM

Since I got my new M40s, I disassembled the stands for my MA GR-10s and put them on top of the M40s. My stands were 24" high and the M40s are 33.5" high, so I took the rubber feet from the pre-pack and placed one under each MA to angle it down toward the listening position. When the MAs were on the stands I used a port plug to control the way boomy bass, but I moved the port plugs to the M40s. The MAs are still about 17" away from the wall but slightly angled, but the shift caused by the little rubber feet has been amazing. Now I get a much more even bass response. It's still a little overpowering at certain frequencies but I have the dreaded square room syndrome.

On the other hand, since I have been listening to my M40s which offer a lot more slam in the bass, maybe I'm just hearing the same thing out of the MAs, but with a slightly different reference point? I'll play around with it a little more.

Point is, I haven't come across such a perceived change in sound from such a little tweak. Pretty cool.
Posted by: oldskoolboarder

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/08/05 08:33 PM

Sean, don't know if this is "fair" or not, but how would you compare the MA's to the Axiom's? The golds were the first speakers I demo'ed a few years back and I LOVED 'em. But alas, it was way outta my price range at the time.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/09/05 03:05 AM

I'll send you a PM.
Posted by: F107plus5

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/09/05 03:42 PM

Actually, I think that most of us understand that there "might" be a little difference between our Axioms and the truly "High Priced Spread"

With that in mind, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the majority of us would truly look foreward to an honest comparrison of the two!!

No holds barred, lay it on the line, right between the eyes!!



(Well......I'd like to know, anyway, and I'd bet: so would a few others)
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/10/05 01:53 AM

F107plus5,

If oldskoolboarder still has my PM maybe he could post it up in the thread. I didn't save it!

If not, no worries. I'll write up another comparison.


Posted by: F107plus5

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/10/05 12:15 PM

Great!!.....Honest, straight foreward comparrisons submitted without malliceare always appreciated around here!!

I think we have a pretty good handle on where Axiom resides in the universe, but it always helps to get even better bearings!!

The efforts ARE appreciated!!!

Posted by: oldskoolboarder

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/11/05 04:10 PM

Here you go:
It was a tough choice between the Monitor Audio GR 10s and MA Silver S2s. I spent a good one and a half to two hours in the store listening to both. Very similar in sound, but I felt the GR 10s offered more of a 3D sound with a touch more detail.

The GRs really have a great depth of sound and clearly delineates each instrument. They are bright, yes, with a forward midrange, but it is extremely clear (which I think is often misnamed as brightness). Also, the GRs have respectable bass for a bookshelf. They are rated to play down to 40 Hz, but I think they roll off more around 50 or 45 Hz. They play deep, but not with the impact of a floorstander. This week I've been switching between running them with a sub and without (thanks to the 6 channel dvd audio and direct analogue channels on my HK) and I've been prefering the speakers by themselves. Like the rest of the frequency response, the bass is very tight with sharp decay. Subsequently, when I added the integrated tube amp to these speakers the sound was awesome. Took just a tad of the bite off the edge of the sound to make it a bit more inviting. I'm sure your Sophia can do the same for your M22s.

The Axiom M40s are a very different speaker. Rated to go down to 40 Hz like the GR 10s, the M40s do it with much more authority. I can feel the bass with these guys. When I read that the M40s were more laid back then the rest of the line, I thought that would also include a lack of detail. Not so. I am really surprised at the amount of musical information they convey. I've heard other so-called "laid back" speakers and felt that not all of the sound was presented. I am pleasantly surprised by the M40s. I guess I'd say the sound is more lush with the Axioms. A bit more blended together, not mushy, but just in comparison with the GR 10s. Pianos sound fuller, with more body, compared to the Monitor Audios. Imaging is not quite on par with the GR 10s, but the M40s surprise me every once in a while.

Well, Cesar, I don't know what else to say. These are the things that have stood out to me over the past couple of weeks. The Axiom M60s are often compared to the Monitor Audio Silver 6 and 8s. The Gold Reference series is the next step up in detail and imaging. I really don't know if the difference in sound is worth the difference in price, though. For me, the GR bookshelves are still in the realm of affordable. The floorstanders are way too pricey. Just my opinion. Everyone has different tastes and budgets.

The GR 10s and M40s have their own characteristics, but both are very enjoyable for different reasons. If you have any specific questions don't hesitate to ask. I am no expert, but I will try to convey my thoughts and opinions as best as possible.
Posted by: F107plus5

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/11/05 10:00 PM

Thanks for posting the comparison! Very helpfull

I have a hiden agenda of sorts.....gotta find out where my M50s fit!! Your words on the M40 are most welcome indeed! Helps to put the entire Axiom line in perspective, as well as where Axiom lives in the audio community.

Like I said though; I know other folks are interested in hearing thoughts on other speakers' offerings as much as I am, so thanks again for the good words!! Very much appreciated

Rich.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/12/05 02:01 AM

Thanks for the kind words, F107plus5. And thanks to oldskoolboarder for taking the time to post my PM.


Posted by: BruceH

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/21/05 04:02 PM

My personal experience (FWIW) as far as Monitor Audio speakers was to compare the Silver series with the Gold series. I found that the Silver series does not have the same imaging presence that the Gold series have. My former speakers were Mirage M3-si which were phenomenal sounding speakers. However, I had to concede with my significant other that they were just too darned big (135 lbs each). Also, I eventually felt that they were more suited to stereo listening (or stereo movie listening) than HT listening. For HT the "mirage bipolar sound" is very diffuse and not very directional. I decided to go to a conventional direct radiating speaker as I find they "work better" in portraying the type of audible information intended by the movie makers.
When I first auditioned the GR-10s, I was very impressed. The imaging was excellent and as far as the lack of bass (which can be compensated by placing closer to the wall), I still have my Mirage BPSS-210 "audiophile" subwoofer. Unfortunately the sub was discontinued due to people preference for a more powerful subwoofer. Anyway I had come across a deal for a pair of GR-60s (MA's flagship model and befoer I found out about Axiom) that I could not pass up. They are smaller than the M3-si at about 61 lbs each and driver-wise similar to an Axiom M60ti. I had played back some live recordings I had made on a mini-disc recorder and have to say that it was as if I was close to being back in the live setting (I say close because I am only using a HK AVR-320). I know that once I go to separates that it will really come alive, however I am not going to tri-wire them. That is a lot of amps for HT.
The difficulty for me now is that I have to spend the extra money on the axiom center and surround speakers to match the GR-60's cherry finish. I know the wife will want it that way, though .
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/21/05 05:01 PM

BruceH, I had the warm cherrywood sample sent to me a while back from Axiom. It matched well enough in tone with MA cherry, but lacked the depth and contrast of grain. To me, the Sorrel Pear and Cinnamon Beech offer a more visually pleasing look. But that's just me.

You can request numerous samples and use the money spent on those towards your future purchase. Really a risk free way of comparing finishes. The MA Cherry and Rosemah are some of the finest finishes I have come across. I wonder how Axiom's high gloss finishes are? Anyone have those?

Oh, and the MA GR center channel is very pricey. Another reason I almost went with the Silver Series. Building in stages isn't so bad, except I had a Klipsch center running with the Monitors for many months.
Posted by: BruceH

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/21/05 05:32 PM

Thanks for the heads-up. I will have to order some samples and see what the wife likes. I just want them to sound good . Agreed on the MA center channel. I was even more floored with the Paradigm Reference center channel. I'm sure the Axiom will be a great compliment to the MA GR-60s. Heck, they both use metal drivers.
Posted by: Rock_Head

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/21/05 05:52 PM

I love the look of my M60's and VP100 in the Cinnamon Beech finish. I don't think that there are very many Axiom owners with this finish? When I get around to ordering the sub and QS8's, they will be in the same finish.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/21/05 06:42 PM

The Cinnamon Beech is very nice. I like the contrast of the Sorrl Pear a bit more, but there is an odd out-of-focus quality to the grain that I don't like. Someday I will get around to ordering my custom speakers. Maybe I should look into that layaway program. . .hmm.
Posted by: Rock_Head

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/21/05 06:54 PM

Get Axiom to send you some finish samples. It is the best way to determine what the finish actually looks like. Brent recommended this when I was trying to decide on the finish for my M60's.
Good Luck!
Shaun
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/21/05 06:59 PM

I'm sittin' on four samples now.

1. Cinnamon Beech
2. Sorrel Pear
3. Warm Cherrywood
4. Russian Maple

Oh, and I have the little port cut out of Boston Cherry.
Plus, the M40s are in Mansfield Beech.

I'll probably order a few more before I decide.
Posted by: Rock_Head

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/21/05 07:20 PM

Oh, I didn't realize you were looking at the samples. The four samples you have are very similar to what my wife and I looked at. We took about a week to decide....
Posted by: audiofan

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/22/05 04:07 PM

I think one of the most important factor that listener forget is to do room accoustic. I have M60 driven by Rotel amp. I have recently added acoustic panel and bass trap to the room of 12x14 . THe sound is much much better now. Good imaging, soundstage. Bass is tight and not boomy anymore. So far i'm happy.
Posted by: BruceH

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/22/05 06:14 PM

In reply to:

I think one of the most important factor that listener forget is to do room accoustic.



You hit one big nail on the head with that one. Room treatment is paramount to get the "best" sound you can get. The ideal is a custom designed room with the ideal dimensions based on a few of those Excel programs out there as well as room treatments. Another is placement of the seating postion relative to the speakers.

Even placement of your speakers in a room can make a serious impact. I'm not talking about toe-ing in the speakers and height above floor, etc., I mean to take your entire setup and rotate it 30 to 45 degrees within the room. This has a drastic effect on reflections of sound and can minimize the amount of room treatment that is required. Instead of third, fourth, and fifth, etc reflections bouncing back and forth, they can be isolated to one part of the room before coming back to the other side. As the number of reflections increases, you of course get a reduced energy of the reflection. Thus it is important to try and contain those first few reflections.

The biggest problem with this if you do not have a dedicated media room is the WAF.
Posted by: F107plus5

Re: Honey, I need a little space - 07/22/05 06:38 PM

Yeah....I know.....tell me 'bout it

If I could only take out the fireplace and put the entertainment system right "there"....the surrounds"there"......the sub"there"....however.......WAF......