ok. my pioneer 1015tx...which is the top o the line before you get into the overpriced (scam i think) elite stuff....and it is supposed to be 120 watts per channel...and i should get more power running just 2 channel stereo right? so my question is...what is the "real" power output per channel in both stereo and 7 channel? it can't actually be 120 watts could it? how do i find out? or is this a losing pursuit? TIA

Michael, the advertised power ratings for receiver/amplifiers are one of the few things advertised in audio that we can rely on to be true. The FTC has specific regulations for measuring power and any receiver/amplifier advertised for sale in the U.S. has to comply. Unless the manufacturer specifically includes an all channels driven rating, the rating shown is measured with two channels being driven simultaneously at the full rated power for at least five minutes continuously. So the way that you find out the "real" power is to simply read the manufacturer's specs. I've noticed that one review of the 1015 measured 130 watts with two channels driven. As far as 7 channels driven simultaneously at full power for five minutes, this is a lab torture test that would never be duplicated in home use, so it's unrealistic and shouldn't be given much weight. If that type of rating is advertised then it has to be met; most manufacturers don't advertise such a rating and it might be anywhere from about 1/4 to 3/4s of the two channel rating.

Michael,

I was the owner of a Pioneer 1014tx, the predecesor of the 1015. I was trying to replace an older Yamaha. I wanted to give DPL2 a try, and felt the 1014 was an economical way of doing this. I may be the only person who did not like this receiver, judging from the many positive reviews that appeared at many message boards. When I adjusted the channel levels upwards, the sound distrorted badly. I ended up with a Denon AVR 1083, the cousin of the 3803, which I judged to be better. I still yearn for my Yammy, though. I definitely didn't miss the Pioneer. I couldn't get it back in the box and out the door fast enough. It's my opinion, that you could get a low end Yamaha for close of the cost of the Pioneer, which would best it by a large margin. It could have been that only the one I had was broken, and yours is a fine example of Pioneer electronics.

It seems as though most manufacturers lie about their power ratings. Here is a link to a previous discussion.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=HT&Number=26012&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=2&vc=1

Here's a site which reports the actual vs. rated output of receivers:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm

you'll notice that most do not match their rated output.

The Elite line is not a Scam, just compare the weight of the units. Do you think they just throw a few bricks in them to make them heavier.

Just took a look at the ratesvac site test results and found a few items I found very interesting:

1. Panasonic SA XR 25 puts out 82 watts per channel (x6) interesting because this digital amp has caused quite the stir because of its high sound quality.
2. Sony STRDB 1070 is rated at 100w x 6 channels actually puts out 31 watts per channel (wpc) I had one of these and am not surprised by this result;
3. All Harman Kardon receivers (AVR 330, 510, 7000 and 8000) have greater actual output than rated output;
4. All Onkyo receivers have actual outputs less than rated;
5. TX NR 901 is rated at 110 wpc x 7 but puts out only 50 wpc;
6. Yamaha RXV1 puts out 99 wpc without stabilized power supply and 104 wpc with stabilized powerline voltage;

Headscratcher:

MARANTZ SR5400 90w x 6 0.05% 103 0.03%/0.04% 4 ohms -73.9 dB
MARANTZ SR7200 105w x 6 0.05% 29 (27 x6) 0.077% -66.3 dB

The Marantz SR5400 puts out 103 wpc though rated at 90 wpc, actual distortion less than rated; the Marantz SR7200, on the other hand, is rated at 105 wpc and only puts out 27 wpc all channels driven, 29 wpc into 2 channels.

Go figure.

Michael, it's ironic that some audiophiles who're willing to take seriously the most bizarre claims which have no factual basis view with suspicion the one area which has a relatively strict set of standards which have to be followed. Published power ratings have to be accurate and there's no excuse not to study the regulations and be more in touch with reality on this point.

John

Once again, your commitment to theory and your contempt for experimental results leads to an absurd conclusion on your part.

You say "published power ratings have to be accurate," in the face of test results and personal experiences which strongly suggest otherwise. It's nice that you trust.

You believe that any amp or CDP of similar rated specs will produce audio output which is indistinguishable from units of similar published specifications.

Wow, find out that the published specs are not accurate and your world is rocked.

I have a theory. You believe that any solid state amp is essentially indistinguishable as to sound quality from any other solid state amp of similar rated output.

You also believe that any CD player or DVD player is indistinguishable from any other as to sound quality. May I guess therefore that you have chosent he cheapest receiver, CDP and DVD player you could find?

I think that your theory is a bit brittle about the edges, and fails on the first test.

2x6, if you had bothered to do even the most cursory search of JohnK's posting history, you would know that he is a proponent of the "features first" shopping method. Naturally, shopping for features often leads one away -- sometimes far away -- from the cheapest of components.

I think that your retort is a bit brittle around the edges, and fails on the first test.

This is how many manufacturers get away with telling consumers their receivers are 100x5.

"The FTC requirement is based entirely on measurements derived from an 8-ohm resistive load, with only two "adjacent" channels driven. To further undermine the issue of real amplifier performance, manufacturers are only mandated to sample their measurements at an easy 1 kHz frequency- no distortion specification required."

http://www.hometoys.com/wrap.php4?/htinews/oct02/articles/nad/defuria.htm

Gotta agree with 2X6 here. No matter how much John knows and how much he trusts corporate America (I'm not insulting him because its obvious he knows a lot, but some people can be too trusting), Not every amplifier manufacturer is gonna be perfectly compliant with (super strict) FTC rules. A Sony rated at 100 channel is not the same as a Denon, or HK. Plain and simple. Whether or not you need 100 continous watts to seven channels for five minutes within rated distortion is not the point. The point is some manufactures accurately and honestly advertise power ratings and some push the envelope. Anyone who is familiar with accounting or finance practices knows what I'm talking about.

Guys, it's unwise to attempt to discuss this area without at least studying the basic(mandatory)regulations for amplifier power ratings, which apparently has not been done in some cases. This has been cited here before, but just to begin, the FTC regulations and rule notice re driven channels should be studied. Comments published by those obviously not familiar with the facts shouldn't be relied on.

To repeat, this is the one area in audio(generally swimming in hogwash)where there are relatively specific regulations which have to be complied with. Power ratings, including frequency range and distortion, are available and independent reviews(e.g. S&V, etc.)confirm that they've been met. No undocumented "trust" is necessary(and I'm hardly the trustful sort after dealing with hundreds of criminals). Learn the facts and save your distrust for those who make baseless claims about players, amplifiers, and even pieces of wire.

so again i have to ask, how do i find out how much power i am really gettin outta my receiver???

One more off-topic post:

I'd pay big bucks to see a court case where JohnK and 2x6 were on opposite sides of the aisle.

Count me in.

Lets get ready to ruuuuuuuuuuumble.......

Can we use this guy as the judge?