I felt it necessary to add a few comments for this product. I spend a great deal of time listening to various home theater gear. If I had an unlimited budget, I'd have no problem in exceeding it
But I am rather the reverse; I have a very limited budget for new gear and thus, I make careful decisions when I lay down my cash for new items.
Axiom Audio has earned my respect and won my hard earned dollars by offering high levels of performance and extremely high value together with excellent service. Many others have also found this to be true. Axiom's bookshelf, tower and especially their spectacular QS surround speakers have all found nearly universal praise.
But Axiom's center speakers have received more negativity. That negativity almost led me to purchase Ascend Acoustic speakers instead of Axioms. The fact of the matter is that I hold Ascend in the highest regard and wouldn't hesitate at all to recommend their speakers as they are excellent. I likely would have bought Ascend were it not for the costly shipping and brokerage fees I would have paid to have their speakers delivered to me in Canada. In the end, Axiom's free shipping saved me a sizable amount of money and was a deciding factor in my final purchase.
Based purely on sound, BOTH Axiom and Ascend speakers offer superb performance. A slight difference emerges though and the Ascend speakers reveal themselves to be extremely neutral, while the Axiom speakers are a tad more forward.
But let's move on to the point of this review. The VP150 has been criticized for having sibilance (over-pronounced "s", "sh" sounds,) a lack of bass and poor off-axis response with too great a degree of timbral change. The simple fact is that I can totally understand how people may have heard this from the VP150 speaker, but these are not inherent characteristics of the speaker itself.
The VP150 is an unforgiving speaker, not only of source material and the equipment upstream, but of room acoustics and placement as well. Axiom designs their speakers for flat frequency response in an anechoic environment, not an adjusted response for estimated room acoustics. What Axiom delivers with the VP150 is a technically and mathematically well designed speaker. But unlike Paradigm, Axiom has not adjusted the output to compensate for what they can only guess to be YOUR room's acoustics.
The result is simply this: if you have not treated your room acoustically with absorption and diffusion panels, you will likely find the VP150 sibilant, bright and/or harsh. Unlike most speaker companies, Axiom does not roll off the high end frequencies. Nor does Ascend, which is why both sound very detailed. But Ascend's cross-overs have been designed to partially compensate for room boundary reflections, leading to what sounds like a more spacious and even sound in most untreated rooms. That spaciousness actually collapses a little in a properly treated room and the CMT-340c and VP150 sound much the same.
As for the complaint of little bass from the VP150; I can only say that Axiom plainly states the -3 dB point at 85 Hz, which is JUST low enough to blend with a subwoofer crossed-over at the THX spec of 80 Hz.
And speaking of THX - there is indeed a reason why they include their own brand of processing on THX approved receivers and pre/pros. One of the key features is THX equalization, which largely reduces high frequency output. The reason for this is because movie theaters require boosted high frequency levels to overcome the damping of so many human bodies in the theater. When this boosted high frequency soundtrack is played at home, it is overbearing. BUT most speakers roll-off the high frequencies anyway! Many people have wondered why THX equalization even exists because they have never heard these boosted high frequencies. The VP150 plays these boosted high frequencies with no manufactured roll-off of their own, leading to the sibilance and brightness many people describe. Engaging THX equalization finally makes sense and the result is very pleasing.
Finally, poor off-axis response is also the result of an acoustically untreated room in most cases. Within a 30 degree window, each tweeter has no timbre change in a room without wall and ceiling reflections. Part of the problem is that the Axiom tweeter actually has a very wide cone of relatively flat frequency response, leading to cancellations and peaks in an untreated room.
All-in-all, this is a fabulous sounding speaker, but only in the proper environment. Given proper room treatment and placement, the VP150 delivers extremely clear and articulate sound with superior detail and even response within 15-20 degress to either side of the speaker.
Strengths:
Extremely accurate (to a fault - ie. no high frequency roll-off), detailed and clear. Efficient, dynamic and well made.
Weaknesses:
Unforgiving of poor room acoustics and placement. Absolutely requires acoustic room treatment and even THX equalization (or equivilant) to avoid sounding bright or even sibilant.
i am not saying i won't try out one...but... i have heard these kinds of complaints about the VP150 on various sites....not just this ONE...any thoughts???
Mike, this is a very well written review, which appears to be based on hearsay. In fact, there are a lot more positive reviews from credible AV sources that carry more weight than a few comments from places like AVSforum.
The same type of comments are found all over places like AVS about the M60's, M80's, and Qs8's. Most of them are from people that have never listened to Axiom, but for some reason like to bash Axiom with false claims.
Axiom's are actual neutral, not bright ( or a tad bit bright), by design, however, everyone's opinion is different. When I was first looking at speakers over a year ago, I was told to stay away from the M60's as they are to harsh, especially when teamed up with a Denon. Those trolls from AVS could not have been farther from the truth. The Denon/M60's combination is by far from harsh or bright. The tweeters/woofers on the vp150 are the same technology as the mains in the Axiom line.
In regards to Sibliance, that is not what most of us Axiom owners experience with their 150's, and I'm sure you won't either if you actually listen to them yourself instead of listening to others who are just trying to bash the Axiom name.
I too have sibilance issues.
We had Ascends here for over a year, they are nice speakers. They don't come close to the accuracy, dynamics, and clarity of the Axioms. For the $$$, the VP-150 is an amazing center channel.
It does, however, need a great front end. The Arcam AVR-300 is a nice choice - as is the NAD 773 and larger Harmon Kardons.
Cheap receivers will be eaten up by the 150.
well, that was not written on AVS...but an independent review i found online....i'll try one out soon enough i'm sure
If you find that review, please share.
Until you want to cite your source, this is worse than irrelevant. Casting anonymous, uninformed aspersions used to be called slander. Publishing somebody else's work without attributing it used to be called plagarism.
Look, some people like the VP150, some don't. As with all things in audio, a good portion of your level of satisfaction is purely subjective. I'm also fully ready to concede (even advance) the theory that The Room is the forgotten component, and makes a tremendous difference.
About two or three times a year, somebody vociferously forwards the idea that the VP150 is a piece of junk. To me, that notion simply does not pass the straight-face test. Axiom builds highly acclaimed main speakers (both bookshelves and towers) - how is it plausible that they continue to design, manufacture and sell center channels that are mysteriously sibilant while using the exact same tweeter?
Furthermore, the gist of the review is that the VP150 may be somewhat intolerant of the acoustics in certain rooms. Gee, there's a real stretch of the imagination. It's like saying that a Ferrari performs poorly in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Placement matters.
In a large room like yours, it seems extremely unlikely that you would experience the placement issues or nulls that others have found objectionable.
There are LOTS of happy VP150 owners, and an extremely vocal minority of people that have had trouble with it in their rooms. Given the risk-free trial period and overwhelming statistical evidence of customer satisfaction, there is a point at which I harken to wisdom dispensed in The Sweet Potato Queen's Big-Ass Cookbook and FInancial Planner - "get happy, don't get happy - it's the shuttin' up that counts"
I'm not sure what the point of posting this (?)review(?) was? If it's to assert that if the VP150 placed poorly in a unforgiving room does not sound very good then you could say that about many speakers. Personally my VP150 does very well in my room and strangely enough sits on top of of my RPTV in the centre with no issues. Strange that this would work so well.
that review is from audioreview.com
Link: http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/axiom-speaker-company/center-channels/PRD_125695_2743crx.aspx
This review is NOT from one of the editors at AudioReview, but from a person called "Terror Beast". So I don't put to much weight on this review since it is not from a credible source. Funny "Terror Beast" is very similar to "Pure Evil" on AVS.
hmmmm do I smell a troll.
I'm not sure I agree with Senor Terror Beast. My initial impression of ALL my Axioms was that they were a little bright/sibilant/harsh/etc. But having observed the forum for a couple of months before the buy, I let the speakers and my ears break in. Also, added an area rug(over hardwoods, needed it anyway) and tweaked placement. The area rug was my only sound suppression add. I don't have any traps/diffusers or such things. I also have good, middle of the road components. I actually for a day or two worried that the 150 was too boxy in the mids until I adjusted its position on the tv. Happy as a puppy with two peckers since. I don't know what the reviewers experience is, but from what I have read break in and position tweaking for a week or more is almost universally accepted as a standard tool for critical listening. I wonder if this person:
A)Had the 150 in his house for a week or more.
B)Listened to it at his friends house for 1/2 hour right out of the box.
C)Has heard one at all.
In reply to:
Until you want to cite your source, this is worse than irrelevant. Casting anonymous, uninformed aspersions used to be called slander. Publishing somebody else's work without attributing it used to be called plagarism.
Yep.
what's a troll? i found that on audio review...and i posted it just to see what your thoughts were...no other reason man...
...also...Pure-Evil is my other online name...i have no others.
I think the problems were (a) it was hard to tell where your comments ended and the third party review began, and (b) without a link pointing to (citing) the original review its hard to judge the credibility / source of the original material...
That's it...
Hey Michael (Jinx, Pure Evil)
I was just trying to be sarcastic, please don't take any offense. Dude you really need to take a lot of the crap you read on the internet with a grain of salt. I was like you about a year ago, all excited about this stuff, asking questions left/right, starting threads like I was going for a record to catch up to these old timers
Then I took a chill pill, and realized these guys around here will give you the straight scoop, trust them, learn from them, its all good man.
Peace Out from Iowa
ps: I'm off to listen to some Rush. The rest of their stuff does not suck, Moving Pictures is one of my favorites. Your mileage may vary, especially if you have a mini cooper.
thanks dude...and sorry..but the rest of rush..although Canadian...DOES in fact suck big donkey youknowwhat..sorry dude..but CARESS OF STEEL is the only decent album they ever made!!!
Hmm. Wasn't that their "Down the Tubes" tour ?
What is it that you think makes Caress of Steel a standout ? Any particular track, or the transitional nature of the album and the group at that time, or what ?
Don’t you guys think your being just a tad bit defensive? I don’t see what’s so bad about the review. It’s been discussed numerous times on this very board how important room treatment, speaker set up and placement is. That’s all the reviewer was stating. I’m looking into a HT system myself and Axiom is at the top of the list, but I’ve also heard from several members of this board that the VP’s are not of the same caliber as the towers and surrounds. I’ve read it enough to have reservations about buying one, and am planning to use three towers for that very reason.
Why is it that when someone posts anything other than Axiom praise, the cowboys come a running with guns blazing? Try having an open mind to differing opinions and discuss it without gunplay.
Mike, on a basic level, I agree with you that the actual content of the review is relatively even-handed and useful. However, it was not allowed to speak on its own merits without the editorial preamble interpreting it (incorrectly and uncharitably, IMO) as "very critical". Likewise, it was initially unattributed and is clearly just another user opinion, not a professional or scientific review. It's not the content of the review I object to, but the context in which it was presented.
As to being defensive, you likely have a point. And consider the circumstances; because of the nearly absolute latitude we enjoy here, it is easy to minimize what it means that this resource remains sponsored and subsidized by Axiom. The environment here is wonderful, casual, educational, helpful, etc. AND this is not a "neutral, public, free speech" zone. Since the forum remains completely unmoderated by its sponsor, I do feel some compunction to cry "bullsh*t" occasionally in return for my enjoyment of Axiom speakers and the Axiom forum.
On a real fundamental level, there is a big difference to me between "my experience was suboptimal. Here are my impressions. Here is the environment. Here are the potential causes" and "somebody said xyz sucks". I do not think it is intellectually honest to afford both of those positions the same deference.
And, like, what else would you expect any self-respecting posse to do?
truth be told...i don't know what exactly i love about that one album..i just find that i do not like most of their other music...maybe "fly by night" but that's really about it...sorry to offend..everyone has their own taste....i just find carress of steel to be an amazing album...front to back
Accurately, and articulately said, Tom.
If you don't want to offend, saying something "sucks ass" is not exactly the way to go about it. Especially when you say it twice.
In reply to:
Accurately, and articulately said, Tom
Does he ever say anything that's
not accurate and articulate? I think Tom is far and away our most articulate board member. I read his posts on threads I have little interest in just to enjoy his deft use of the English language.
Three cheers for Tom!
Yeah, Tom's a keeper. His wife and kids are lucky to have him.
!
I am lucky to have my family, and I feel fortunate and happy to have each of you in my life, also.
If you guys' opinions were only slightly more credible, I'd take them to my boss or my wife or something.
JohnK still rocks my cyberworld, especially when you consider concision and substance. I just like to type.
Your kind words are deeply appreciated. It is a pleasure to be in the company of good people.
JohnK is a very close second.
He's a bit more clinical, whereas you, are an artiste.
I guess it’s my nature or maybe too many dead brain cells, but I’m still failing to find any offence to the post or the way it was presented.
I also fail to see where anyone said the words “sucks ass” in regards to any speaker. And who really gives a rat’s ass if the review is from an acclaimed audiophile expert or not? I certainly don’t, they don’t have my ears. A review is nothing more than someone’s opinion based off how that person just happens to be feeling the moment they write it. This one has both pros and cons. Big whoopi….. my farts stink and I don’t mind it when I’m told they do. At least they’re noisy so everyone knows they’re coming and have the option to stay or leave. I appreciate reviews that present both bad and good and don’t pay much attention to them if they don’t present both sides.
I appreciate the way the ‘posse’ likes to police and keep things in check, but I’ve also been shot at and got the crap beat out of me by some of them for stating my opinion. So, from that perspective, it sucks not being able to state an opinion without fear of retaliation. And that’s what y’all are doing when you are too quick and too harsh with policing activities. It is for that reason that I no longer offer an opinion and stick to casual conversations. If I had not made a few friends on this board, whom I’d actually like to meet in person some day, I wouldn’t visit at all with the exception of asking specific questions. I’m pretty thick skinned and can take a lot of BS, so just imagine the calming effect that you posse members are having on others that happen to be more sensitive. Shoot the bad guys, not the settlers. And leave the Indians alone, they’ve been shot at enough.
OK, end of rant and I’m now stepping away fro the podium. Don’t shoot!!! I’m unarmed and can spare no more brain cells!!
I smoked a lot of, err… leafy vegetation listening to Rush in my teen years. Permanent Waves was my favorite, with a Farewell for Kings coming in second place.
I think the posse was more responding to the way the review was posted, i.e. the poster not citing the source, more than the substance of the review. Axiom owners or any other speaker brand owners see/hear negative or unfavorable reviews of the products they own almost everyday, everyone has different tastes in sound and they realize this. However, I think this Axiom board has the ability to take every review, whether good or bad, in stride and with a grain of salt. I think if this kind of review were posted on any other manufactures board it would be either deleted immediately or elicit a much more vicious response.
My reviews come from me, myself, and I....not from some post on a review website from an unknown source. Had it been from an Audioholics editor for ex., that is a different story. AVS and other forums are being taken over by trolls:A person that tries to leave a bad taste in other members mouths regarding a product they have no factual knowledge of, and in most cases, have never heard themselves. Just ask Ajax and Craigsub, they luv those AVS trolls
In reply to:
Does he ever say anything that's not accurate and articulate? I think Tom is far and away our most articulate board member. I read his posts on threads I have little interest in just to enjoy his deft use of the English language. Three cheers for Tom!
Ditto!
I have always enjoyed reading what Tom, Ajax and JohnK writes. All three of you guys are class acts!
Mike, I guess what bothers me about your post is that you are saying you, and others, have been "shot at and got the crap beat out of me" for expressing an opinion. I must disagree. There are TONS of opinions expressed on this forum, many preferring products other than Axioms, that are welcomed and accepted openly.
It's not the opinion that is resented, it is HOW the opinion is presented that brings objections. For example, I don't quite understand what opinion you are expressing with this.
"Big whoopi….. my farts stink and I don’t mind it when I’m told they do. At least they’re noisy so everyone knows they’re coming and have the option to stay or leave."
But, I find HOW you expressed that opinion in bad taste, offensive and unnecessary. Surely you would agree that if it's OK for you to express your opinion, then it must be OK for others to express their opinion on how you express yours.
You seem to be concerned about the sensitivity of those who are criticized when you say this.
"I’m pretty thick skinned and can take a lot of BS, so just imagine the calming effect that you posse members are having on others that happen to be more sensitive.
What about the sensitivity of those who are offended by HOW opinions are expressed? It seems to me that part of the burden of posting in a public forum is taking into consideration the feelings of others, and expressing your opinions with as much tact and consideration for opposing opinions as possible. But then, that's just MY opinion.
And a great opinion it is
>>Don’t you guys think your being just a tad bit defensive? I don’t see what’s so bad about the review.
Defensive ? He said Rush sucks Donkey **** !!
Oh, the VP150 stuff ? Whatever
I was going to reply in my "offensive" mannor, but screw it. It's just not worth it.
Cops will be cops. There's no reasoning with you.
I agree with you Drew. While the Axiom posse is very knowledgeable and usually understanding, they are a very stubborn bunch on certain occassions. I'm especially shocked because I usually agree with Spiff and Ajax more often than any other members but I happen to disagree with them on this one. To each his own, I guess.
My first wife always used to say:you're entitled to you're opinion no matter how wrong it may be.
Isn't it great how everyone's opinion is different and there's no absolute right or wrong? You gotta love this universe.
Guys... where is our sense of humor? I thought Mike's comments were very funny. I'm pretty sure that is the way he intended them to be read. I agree that some are too quick to pound the gavel to the lectern. If I don't like something or it offends (rarely)I move on to the next thread.
As far as the original topic I didn't find the review overly critical. Not only that it was just one persons opinion.
As for me I have only heard the 100 and it sounded just fine from where I was sitting.
peace
oz
Mike, I agree with you 100%.
Baby Gracie says, "Can't we all just sit back, crack open a bra, pound some boob, and chill?"
Peter... now really! Boob on a public forum? I'm outta here.
oz
Oh man that is some funny stuff
I like the way Baby Grace thinks.
In reply to:
I like the way Baby Grace thinks.
Bray I've been thinking like that for years....and years.
I wanted to let a few days go by, before I responded, to see what direction this discussion took, and to let my own thoughts coalesce. I know some will resent that I’m reviving a contentious thread they rather would disappear, but I feel the subject is an important one, and one worth exploring. If you are one of those has read this far with dread in your heart, I recommend following Oz’s advice and if you don’t like something, or it offends, move on to the next thread.”
I apologize for the length of this. In my old age, I’ve become verbose. But, I also was a communications major in college, and I have an inbred fear of miscommunication. So, I’d rather use too many words than use too few, thus running the risk of misunderstanding.
One of the most interesting things I found in the responses to my post was that, rather than address the point I was trying to make, most focused on the example I used to make it. I wished to see who else felt that the blanket statement “it sucks not being able to state an opinion without fear of retaliation” is accurate. I TOTALLY disagree with that. Even giving the benefit of the doubt by assuming he actually meant not being able to state a negative opinion of Axiom the company, or Axiom products without receiving retaliation” I would disagree, though I would concede that it does, occasionally, happen. This IS, after all, the Axiom forum. I would submit, however, that this occurs primarily when the poster is unwise with how the negative opinion is expressed. I have seen many more negative opinions expressed without incident, than with.
A similar incident just occurred on the av123 forum. Rather than delivering his criticism with tact (Gee, guys. I can’t figure out why I’m not hearing what I expected to hear, and I’m disappointed), the poster came off as saying “What the heck? This is piece of garbage. You guys conned me” (those are my, slightly exaggerated for effect, interpretations, NOT what he literally said). The staff, understandably, defended their honor, the initial poster got defensive, miscommunication and misunderstanding flourished, and we were off to the races (I did NOT participate in this thread).
My point is, if one is going to criticize a product or company on the forum operated by that company and populated by owners of that companies products, it would seem, to me, that being VERY careful how you phrase your criticism would be an exceptionally wise path. And, should one chose NOT to follow that path, one should not be outraged at receiving flak in return.
As to the specific example I cited in my post, I’m reminded of a conflict I had with neighbor years ago. We both agreed that living in an apartment meant making sacrifices. However, we disagreed on the nature of the sacrifice. He felt that one had to endure the behavior of other tenants. Among other habits, he would move his speakers out on the back porch which was literally 1 foot from my back porch, and crank his music for hours. This, on a courtyard with 4 townhouses along one side, 4 townhouses directly across the courtyard from the first 4, and, at one end of the courtyard, an apartment building with the windows of, perhaps, 15 apartments facing the courtyard. In fairness to him, had I done the same, he probably would’ve “endured” it without saying a word.
I, however, felt that, when one lives in an apartment one must, out of consideration for others, curb one’s behavior. Needless to say, we didn’t get along. I suspect we held differing points of view for the very same reason; it was how we were raised. If my father caught me stepping on someone else’s toes (literally or figuratively), I’d get a light crack on the back of the head, nothing abusive, just a little attention getter. He would then bend down and gently whisper into my ear “there are other people in the world besides you.” I’ve never forgotten the message.
We seem to have a similar situation here. On one side, there are those who seem to feel it’s acceptable to say anything, even in jest, expecting others to “endure” it or move on to another thread, while on the other side are those who feel it’s incumbent on us all to take into consideration the feelings of others. It’s obvious on which side of the argument I can be found. I’d be interested to hear on which side others can be found.
On the personal note, I ask that anyone who has stuck with this so far go back and reread my post. I tried (and feel I succeeded) to restrict my criticism to Mike’s POST. While indirectly that criticism reflects on Mike himself, at no time did I denigrate him personally or call him names. Yet, in return, I got “there is no reasoning with you,” which I found a particularly interesting conclusion since no attempt was made to reason with me. And then, of course, I was derogatorily referred to as a “cop.”
Oh, and Oz? Just so you don't misunderstand, it's not the words that offend me. I have a few years on you and was a musician all my life. You'd have to use the words about 20 times a minute to catch up to me. What bothers me is using the words in a public place without consideration for those who MIGHT be offended by them. It seems to me just another example of the selfish society in which we exist. You may feel you have the right to say anything you want anyplace, but what about the right of others to NOT hear the words. I have the right to swing my fist anywhere I want. But, my right to swing my fist ends at your nose.
I know that values and mores continue to change, but have we reached a point on this forum and in our society where tact and consideration for others, and the expectation of same, are not only disappearing, but now are considered a character flaw? Are there NO standards to which we must adhere?
>>Are there NO standards to which we must adhere?
Regrettably, no, unless those standards are codified as laws and someone is willing to make the effort to enforce those laws, by force if necessary, and to endure the risks and abuse which goes along with the job.
The problem is agreeing on what the right standards are, and leaving a door open for people who do not agree with the standards and can not live with the laws. This is not a problem for an Internet forum (if you don't like the rules and conventions, pi** off !!) but is a problem for states and countries as we all slide inexorably towards the PC abyss.
We are increasingly living in times where standards are felt to be discriminatory to anyone who chooses not to follow them, rather than being the foundations and plumbing of civilization like they used to be.
Mark my words -- within 10 years we are going to realize what a mess we have made and flip over to a very conservative mindset, at least up here in Canada. I just hope we do it under a Churchill and not a Hitler.
I don't think we're going to do it under a Harper (our current Conservative party head) -- we're still too naive and ignorant up here to vote for a quiet, smart leader.
In reply to:
we're still too naive and ignorant up here to vote for a quiet, smart leader.
Ditto down here. /OT comment
Ah, the Mom is busy with the baby envy syndrome rears it's ugly head.
In reply to:
Oh, and Oz? Just so you don't misunderstand, it's not the words that offend me. I have a few years on you and was a musician all my life. You'd have to use the words about 20 times a minute to catch up to me. What bothers me is using the words in a public place without consideration for those who MIGHT be offended by them. It seems to me just another example of the selfish society in which we exist. You may feel you have the right to say anything you want anyplace, but what about the right of others to NOT hear the words. I have the right to swing my fist anywhere I want. But, my right to swing my fist ends at your nose.
Jack
First let me say that I enjoyed your above post as I have enjoyed all of your posts since joining the group. They are always well thought out and articulate. I wish the words would roll of my keyboard and easily as they appear to do for you. Writing was never my strength and I admire people who can effectively use the power of the “pen” so to speak. I also want to assure you that I agree with much that you say. We do live in an increasingly “selfish society”. I also agree with John when he says we will do a 180 degree turn in the near future. History tends to repeat itself. John made two other very important points.
1) [quote john]“The problem is agreeing on what the right standards are”
Who do I want to make those decisions for me? Is that selfish of me to care?
2) [quote john]“This is not a problem for an Internet forum (if you don't like the rules and conventions, pi** off !!)”
This is basically what I said in my first post. If something offends, I move on to the next thread.
I have always made it a point to try to steer clear of posts that are dealing with the hot topics. The two main reasons for that are: a) it’s not what I come here for and 2) like you I want to make sure I communicate my thoughts carefully to avoid being misunderstood, which as you know, takes many carefully chosen words and frankly I’m not that fast on the keyboard But here I am trying to explain myself, hopefully to avoid bad “bits” between the two of us.
It’s amazing how quickly a thread can come so far a field. That is the direction it seems to have been taken. The things you seem to take issue with come down to matters of freedom of expression. It doesn’t matter if it is the words, or as you say, the use of the words in a public place. Either way it is the same thing. Fortunately, for “all” of us the First Amendment of the Constitution guarantees protection of free speech. That freedom has been abused and therefore challenged many times in our history. A few recent cases I’m sure you’ll remember.
Professor Ward Churchill’s abrasive and polarizing comments on the victims of 9/11
Professor Jonathan Katz’s statements on gays and aids
Howard Stern opinion’s on every subject imaginable.
John Rocker on New York Mets fans
And most recently Mdrew’s comments about smelly farts (Sorry Mike I don’t really think you’ve quite made this group yet) Emphasis on YET
The comments these people made run the gamut of reprehensibility. Their statements were hateful, sexist, racist, polarizing, inaccurate and just plain wrong. Do I agree with what they say? It doesn’t matter if I do, but for the record in most cases I don’t. However, as it has been said many times before “I will defend their right to say it.” I think we all would agree that if we deny one person this right, then none of us are free. I don’t believe in censorship of any kind. However I do believe in using good judgment. I try to be sensitive to other people’s sensitivities. This is a personal choice I make. Like you, I live my life to achieve a “personal” standard. But that’s my standard, not Ward Churchill’s or Jonathan Katz or for that matter Ajax’s from Cleveland Ohio. Look Jack, I think we’re a lot more alike than you might want to believe. I just don’t think we can expect to enforce our standards on others. In the end they will be judged in the harsh light of public opinion and that is the best we can expect. Is it a perfect system? Maybe not, but I’m not willing to give up my freedom to test the alternatives. Now before I wrap this up I just want to address a few specific items that may or may not have been directed my way.
[quote jack]
“We seem to have a similar situation here. On one side, there are those who seem to feel it’s acceptable to say anything, even in jest, expecting others to “endure” it or move on to another thread, while on the other side are those who feel it’s incumbent on us all to take into consideration the feelings of others. It’s obvious on which side of the argument I can be found. I’d be interested to hear on which side others can be found.
I think it is a huge leap to say that my comments on Mike’s fart story means I feel it’s acceptable to say “anything” and expect others to endure it. He wasn’t ranting. He didn’t use any profanity and personally I didn’t find what he said particularly offensive. Now if he was in my presence and gave a literal demonstration I might have been.
Would I have said it this way? Absolutely not…but that just me. It’s not the measure by which I choose to be judged in that harsh light of public opinion. I also support your right to retort.
[quote jack]
“I suspect we held differing points of view for the very same reason; it was how we were raised. If my father caught me stepping on someone else’s toes (literally or figuratively), I’d get a light crack on the back of the head, nothing abusive, just a little attention getter. He would then bend down and gently whisper into my ear “there are other people in the world besides you.” I’ve never forgotten the message.”
I especially loved this part of your post. It reminded me of my own father. I would always get a light cuff on the back of the head to get my attention. Then he would deliver the words of wisdom. The words to think about and grow on. I think your father was a very bright man. Things were definitely different back in our father’s day. The world was a bit simpler then. I’m a photographer. My world is not black and white. There are also many shades of grey. I think if your father were around these days he might give you a cuff on the back of the head and say “there are other people in the world besides you and they may not think the same as you”. Please don’t take offense, I really mean no disrespect.
I would like to end my verbosity or atrocity depending on your view
with a quote from Troy W. Pierce in his examination of C.G. Jung’s work investigating polar opposites. Dark/Light, Good/Evil etc. etc.
[quote Troy W. Pierce]
Each of us has experienced the weight of another's Shadow upon us and have resented it, just as each of us is responsible for casting our own Shadow on others. This is especially true of religion. As individuals, we must find our own spiritual path. But, as soon as an individual finds the source of their own light, they hold it close, and their shadow ends up being cast out on everything else. The stronger the light, and the closer we hold it, the larger and darker the shadow looms, until everything but your own light seems like darkness.
[quote jack]
“Are there NO standards to which we must adhere?”
reply oz
I think maybe:
Standards = Shadows = Shades of Grey. Consider diversity and hold onto your freedom. There are no simple answers. Jack, you asked people to post what side of the issue they were on. Well there you have it. I hope we are good. I have the highest regard for you and I certainly would not want to jepordize our frienship.
Peace
oz
Wow! After all that typing I'm thirsty. Hey Peter... tell baby Grace to pass that boob my way
On second thought I think I'll have a beer.
Well stated, Oz. This thread got ugly quickly. Let's hope cooler heads prevail. I enjoy reading everyone's posts and don't like it when things get personal. Differing points of view aren't inherently bad, but in how we deal with opposing or different views do things get sticky.
A very articulate and well thought out post, Oz. I believe heartily in my signature. Disagreement and argument are fine. Quarreling is not. I bear no ill will toward you OR Mike.
Your name came into play in my second post ONLY because you said "Peter... now really! Boob on a public forum? I'm outta here" which I interpreted as implying that I was offended by the words, which, I hope I've made clear, is not the case.
Somehow I'm not getting my point across.
In reply to:
The things you seem to take issue with come down to matters of freedom of expression. It doesn’t matter if it is the words, or as you say, the use of the words in a public place.
My objection was not to the words, or even the "use of the words in a public place." What I object to, and I know this will seem like splitting hairs (but, think about it), is the lack of consideration for others demonstrated by using the words in a place where Amie and Sonicfox, and who knows how many other women and/or children might come across them. Now, for all we know (please excuse me Amie), Amie uses more graphic bodily function terminology every two minutes, and wouldn't be offended in the least. But the point is, we don't know HOW she might feel, do we?
Oz, would you go back to my first post and quote any parts where I said, or implied, that I wished to restrict anyone's freedom of expression, or where, as you implied later, I attempted to "enforce my standards on others"? To reiterate, I was NOT offended by the words. I was offended by the lack of tact and consideration for others, which always offends me. My post was a plea for those values, and NOT a call for rules and regulations to restrict freedom of speech. I am not now, nor have I ever been, in favor of the restriction of free speech.
I refer you to quote from one of my favorite movie speeches which happens to be from the movie
The American President.
"
"You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil who is standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours."
Let me use "political correctness" as an example. I find political correctness, in general, loathsome. I view political correctness as a demand, with failure to comply resulting in punishment. I view tact and consideration of others as a gift graciously bestowed by an individual. To demand it, or effect it's application through rules and regulations sorta defeats the idea of the whole thing. I can't even think how would would word a rule demanding tact.
Oz, I'm nearly 60. I know the world isn't black and white. There are, however, some things which fall into that category. I'm having a little trouble finding the gray area when it comes to tact and consideration for others.
Returning to Mike's "Why is it that when someone posts anything other than Axiom praise, the cowboys come a running with guns blazing"? and your "I agree that some are too quick to pound the gavel to the lectern," I would submit again that "It's not the opinion that is resented, it is HOW the opinion is presented that brings objections." In no way do I "demand" tact and consideration for others. I do, however, recommend their usage. And, should one opt to forgo them, an event that happens now and then on this forum, I am mystified when that person is outraged by unfriendly and angry responses, and issues accusations of overreaction to those who object to that lack of tact and consideration.
In reply to:
10/22
"What bothers me is using the words in a public place without consideration for those who MIGHT be offended by them"
In reply to:
10/23
"My objection was not to the words, or even the "use of the words in a public place.""
I guess I read this wrong. Anyway I stand corrected.
You see I knew you would see we are a lot more like each other than you think. As long as we are not telling someone what they can say or how they should say it then we are in the same camp.
As for the statement about not enforcing our own personal standard on others I wasn't singling you out or implying you were doing that. I was simply completing my thought process on how I feel about censorship and and what I believe to be inalienable rights. I said " I just don't think we can enforce "our" (as in the collective sense) own personal standard on someone else" I meant not you, not me, not tomtuttle or anyone else for that matter.
Once again I will say that I agree with nearly everything you say. I just feel it is not a perfect world (far from it) and not everyone will rise to the higher standard.That doesn't mean you don't have the right to wish they would or even to call them out when they don't. Hey go for it! You have every right. However, if it were me I would choose my battles and make it count. There again we are talking about personal standards and personal tolerances toward what we percieve as transgressions. I just don't see it here in this case. Once again this is just IMHO
I'm sorry I did not see that movie and the quote as it stands does not reveal anything to me.I guess I'm dense. If you only wanted to point out the irony or the conundrum of the free speech issue, I got that. That was the point I was trying to make with the list of people who have tested the extreme limits of those freedoms. So I guess here too we are in agreement unless there was something more I'm missing.Out of the context of the movie I'm just not sure.
As for my post about "boob on a public forum? I'm outta here" I was afraid you might take that as a personal attack.It apppears you did. I apoligize, I was being sarcastic and it's not the first time my sarcasim has gotten me in trouble. I was attempting to keep things light. I was also intrigued by the timing of Peter's post and his use of the term so I couldn't resist. You see I consider the term boob as risque or as innocent (either/or) as the term fart. I wouldn't bat an eye at hearing either term coming from a 8 or 10 year old boy or girl no less on an adult internet forum. That is the "only" reason I said some are too quick to pound the gavel on the lecturn. Let's face it neither of these words are on George Carlins list of words you can never say on TV.
Well I think that covers all your points. I also think we have bored other readers to tears. At this point I can't think of anything more to say on the subject. I hope all is well with us. I view you with the highest regard and enjoy our exchanges.
oz
Jack,
Just got back from a week long conference in St Louis today, and was surprised to see this thing still alive (unfortunately). Seams I’ve stirred it up again!!
My apologies for my tactless response. I didn’t even think twice that it would (or could be) taken that way by anyone. BTW….My father just turned 85, so I suspect that we were raised with similar values. I still open doors for women and carry them over mud puddles. I’m also the first one to offer a stranded motorist a jump or lift.
But I was also a sailor and have been running construction crews and roughnecks for years. If you think what I said earlier was foul or tackles, don’t ever drink with me. Funny thing about communication, the words that offend you, are respected from others. If I were to politely ask a hand to continue with his assignment as soon it was convenient for him to leave the smoke shake, I’d get no respect and laughed at. But when I tell him to get the F*** off his lazy ass and get back to work or pick up his last paycheck on his way off the job sight……well guess what? I get respect not only from him, but all his piers and the smoke break abuse stops. That’s my world Jack, and again, sorry for offending you, or anyone else for that matter. Don’t take it personal, that’s just me. If I mean to offend, their will be no room for doubt, I can be down right nasty when I mean to.
I also did not mean to personally call you out as a cop, but was referring to all self proclaimed vigilantes that pack heat on this forum. I really don’t know, or care who those might be, or if you are one of them. Really, I don’t, and don’t have a file with names on it. I live in the now, not the past.
Your quote:
“Returning to Mike's "Why is it that when someone posts anything other than Axiom praise, the cowboys come a running with guns blazing"? And your "I agree that some are too quick to pound the gavel to the lectern," I would submit again that "It's not the opinion that is resented, it is HOW the opinion is presented that brings objections."
I agree with you, completely. We’re good on that point. That is also the point that I was trying to make when I first opened my big mouth. This string was not started out in any other way, than a simple question. Jinx stumbled across a review that gave him troubles; he posted it here and asked for feedback. Can’t you see that??? I’ve read it over and over again, and I still do not see where Jinx did anything deserving of the treatment he got. That is what I had issue with. People were ready to shoot without actually “hearing” the question asked. And it happens time and time again.
That’s when I stepped in. I do not like bullies and have been confronting them my whole life. Call them forum cops, the “posse”, whatever. The name fits on all feet. When they start attacking, I will call BS. Someone posted an excellent Axiom speaker review a while back. The only negative thing he pointed out was that the grills could stand a little improvement. What did the “posse” do??? They started shooting and making comments like “well how often do you really need to move your speakers?” What a bunch of BS….. I agree, the grills are flimsy.
Well besides coming back from St Louis a little richer with some culture, I’ve got pneumonia. I’m done with this, and again, sorry to offend you or anyone else. That was not my intent.
Graciously said, Mike. As I said, I bear no one ill will. My post was meant as a plea for consideration for the feelings of others, NOT a demand for forum censorship.
If you find the behavior of the "posse" objectionable, whether I agree with you or not, I support your right to complain about it. I would simply request that you temper you complaints with tact and consideration.
I understand that your world is one of rough necks and construction crews. But, I'm a believer in the doctrine of "time and place." I am a Viet Nam vet, and was a musician all my life. I would not behave the same here - a place with at least two two female members, and unknown numbers of female and children visitors - as I did in those worlds. This forum is a different "time and place."
Mike, do NOT mess around with pneumonia. It can get very serious, very quickly. Take care of yourself and do what the doctor says.
By the way, I have confirmed that Amie does NOT, repeat -
NOT, use more graphic bodily function terminology every two minutes
.