recommended WPC for M60 v2 - Axiom Message Boards

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Hello all, I am brand spanking new to this forum but have been reading about Axioms for a long time now. I am seriously considering purchasing within the next few weeks 2 M60, 1 VP150, and 2 QS8 setup (don't have the budget for a sub just yet). I was wondering what current owners recommended for a minimum WPC from a receiver. I'm looking at several different models (Pioneer vsx-82tsx, denon 3806, just to name a couple) but would like to consider less expensinve models with lower ratings (say 100-110 WPC) if they will drive this current setup. I appreciate your input in advance. Oh, my space is a 14'x18'x8' room with 1/3 of one side wall opening up to the kitchen and hallway, with 80/20 HT to music. Thank you for your help and I look forward to becoming a member of the Axiom family soon!

Allen:
Welcome and Happy Birthday!
Unless a person has a very large room or listens at deafening levels, 100 watts would be great.... The M60's are very efficient and many are happy with lower WPC ratings. There's only a very tiny volume difference between, say, 100 and 150 watts. It's not 50% louder as some would think!

Go with a lesser-receiver and put the money towards a sub since so much of your use will be HT. Others will recommend specific receivers!

Here is a couple of good articles to read.

Happy Birthday!

This Yamaha 2500 on Ubid would work.

Allen, another welcome/Happy Birthday! The amount of power needed depends on several factors: the sensitivity of the speakers, the size of the listening room, the distance of the listener, the average listening level used, the dynamic range of the material being played, etc. These speakers will use about 1 watt at a comfortably loud average level and brief split-second peaks would of course use much more. In the vast majority of cases any of the receivers having ratings in the 100 watt area would be fine. Keep in mind that power ratings are logarithmic, not linear. This means that the difference between 100 watts and 200 watts is exactly the same rather small 3dB difference in sound level as is the difference between 1 and 2 watts or 10 and 20 watts. The difference between the 130-140watt and 100-110 watt ratings you may be considering is only a dB or so in maximum sound level and is unlikely to be significant in real-world use. Base your decision on features and price, rather than power ratings.

Welcome,

Don't forget to check the THD specs.
For some reason, many A/V receivers, (some expensive one's too) have fairly high THD levels....(some approaching 1%)
Try to get the lowest THD you can.....0.05THD, or less for clean power.

Thanks to everyone for all the great information! There are a lot of things to consider when looking into receivers but luckily the Axioms are such awesome speakers (hopefully I will find out for myself in a couple weeks) that most of the newer receivers will work fine. How do you guys feel about the Pioneer Elite receivers? I've always liked Pioneer for their quality.

I have used a Pioneer Elite for several years powering M22ti's and the VP150 center. I'm quite happy with it. I'm sure it would be just fine for powering the M60's. At the risk of starting a flame war, sometimes you will hear Axiom's described as slightly 'bright'. Sometimes you will hear that Pioneer Elite receivers are slightly 'warm'. Well, those two aspects should cancel each other out, and I can say that my m22's sound delightful powered by my P/E. YMMV.

However, the Elite's are only rated for speakers down to 6 ohms, so driving 4-ohm M80's might be a problem. I can't say for sure. Some folks say it isn't a problem and others say it is. You want M60's, so that's a non-issue. It is something to think about if you're prone to 'upgrade-itis'. I am, and considering M80's, so it's a wee bit of a concern.

Do check out your local stores, as occasionally you can get really good deals on Pioneer Elite stuff. If your local Best Buy has a 'Magnolia' center, they carry Pioneer Elite stuff. My receiver was like $999 MSRP and I bought mine for about $600, brand new at a local HT store (not Best Buy).

Quote:

For some reason, many A/V receivers, (some expensive one's too) have fairly high THD levels....(some approaching 1%)
Try to get the lowest THD you can.....0.05THD, or less for clean power.

When a manufacturer show really high THD levels, it's usually so they can pump up the spec for power (watts). The amp may be clean at 40WPC @ 0.05% THD... but they can show that you can get 200WPC if you allow 0.75% THD for instance... kind of like those 200W PMPO computer speakers you used to see everywhere... RMS power they were maybe 1W, but Potential Maximum Power Output, they could be listed as 200W... so awesome.

Bren R.

Computer speakers cheat way more I think.

0.75% THD is less noticeable than the 10% I saw one set of old computer speakers rated for. 10%.. I shudder to think what that sounds like.

The old integrated amp I now use is rated to, 30 wpc at 0.5% THD, and it sounds great. I can't notice a difference from my adcom, or HK, both with lower distortion and higher power ratings.

There's a lot of tricks manufacturers use. Receivers actually saying they're "not compatible" with 4 ohm speakers. That's like saying I'm "not compatible" with benchpressing 330 lbs. It has nothing to do with compatibility - I don't have the strength to do it. "incomaptible with 4 ohms" is the market friendly way of saying "we stuck too many amps into a small, cheap package so the quality took a nosedive" There's blatant lying on power ratings, since a lot of modern 5.1 receivers rate at low THD, and RMS, but give ratings of power that with a 32 lbs box, are very questionable.

I think brand reputation is a bit more important than specs now, because a lot of manufacturers treat specsheets like something they can lie on and get away with. Not that you should go out and buy a parasound halo or krell, but it doesn't hurt to buy a refurbished nad/rotel/HK, or from a company that'll always work with a 4 ohm load that doesn't lie about their power rating.

Back to the original topic.. how much wattage do you need? I guess it depends on that manufacturer's math. My amp is 30 wpc @ 8 ohms. This is with Marantz circa 1971 math, and it works well for me. A used 5.1 yamaha I had, rated at over 75 per channel, would go into current limiting and die with my thiels driving only two channels. That's with Yamaha, circa early 2000s math.

Modern power amps, rarely seem to lie about power. Some even rate conservatively, even cheaper ones, even 5 or 7 channel ones. The only place I can find where you get burned on specsheets is consumer level 5.1 receivers. The math used on modern consumer level 5.1 receivers is bunk for a large portion of them.

Math doesn't change much over time, besides audio electronics.