I just purchased an Outlaw Audio amp (200 watts per channel) and will be using (2) Outlaw LFM-1 EX subs in my new home theater. I have narrowed my short list of speakers down to Axiom and Aperion. Anyone care to comment?

I'm looking for rich warm sound that I can crank up without worries. Thanks.

What particular models of speakers are you looking at... I mean you can't compare one brand's bookshelves to another brand's towers...

Look for auditions for different models.

Have specific sets of speakers in mind? Order both. Return one. That's why they have return policies! No amount of internet chatter will surpass that for letting you know which one you'll prefer.

Sorry, I guess I should have mentioned the speakers I'm looking at. Here's what I currently have and/or what's on the way:

Outlaw 990 pre/pro
Outlaw 7500 5 channel amp (200 watts per channel)
(2) Outlaw LFM-1 EX subs
Velodyne SMS-1 parametric sub equalizer
ViP722 HD-DVR (Dish Network)
Samsung BD-P1400 Blu-Ray
Epson 1080 UB projector

I'm looking at the M80's, VP150, QS8's. As far as Aperion is concerned, I'm looking at the new 6TD Hybrid XD system (minus the sub). http://www.aperionaudio.com

In response to the other replies, you're right, I should just go ahead and order both and see what works better for me. Thanks for your help.

Scott

Obviously around here you are going to get you should buy the Axioms, but the Aperions look to be a good speaker as well. I am not overly optimistic about the waveform it has, there is quite the bump in the 50-60hz range and then a drop and then another increase in the very upper end, which I don't think would really affect much as very little is played up in that range.

As was mentioned and it seems you are willing to do, buy both and go with the ones you like best. You may want to buy just the towers first as it would be much cheaper to ship only the one set back.

Have you looked at the hearing things forum to see if there is anyone around you that could give you an audition of some Axioms? If there is no one nearby then send Amie a PM as she might be able to contact someone for you.

Good luck

Skubic,

I haven't heard the Aperion speakers. I have to admit though that I am not fond of their surround speaker design. I had direct radiating surround speakers which I thought delivered great surround until I got the QS8s. The room really "opened up" and the diffuse effects lend a very eerie quality.

I don't expect the Aperion fronts to have the involving mid-range that the M80s have but I could be wrong. That centre speaker looks very promising though. Maybe you'll find that you should mix and match Aperions with Axioms.

We're looking forward to your comparison between the Aperions and the Axioms.

Jason, where did you find the frequency response plot for the Aperion fronts?

Thanks Jason. Both very good suggestions. I think I might post an audition request. I did see a few proud owners in my area. Also, strickly by the numbers/specs, it looks like Axiom wins, but I guess it all really boils down to what I think sounds better.

Aperion's 30-day audition period includes free return shipping too, so what I'm thinking I may do is go ahead and order the Aperions, listen to them for a little while and then go take a listen to one of the local Axiom owners and see which one I like better. If I like the Axioms better, I'll send the Aperions back free of charge.

Mojo,

I agree with you. I really like the Axiom quad-pole (or at least the idea of the quad-pole). Particularly since, due to my room layout, I may not be able to place the surrounds exactly across from one another. I've read that the QS8's are much more forgiving in that respect. I think the Aperion di/bi-poles require you manually switch them on the speaker, which is kind of annoying.

If the Aperions had a quad-pole surround, I think I would go with them without much thought. From what I've read, the build quality on the Aperion's is top-notch. Not sure if the same can be said about Axiom.

Absolutely! Now, you won't get wood finish unless you pay extra for it, but there you are. The less final cost that goes into the finish, the more final cost that goes into the sound reproduction.

I'd have to see the Aperions in order to compare build quality. The only complaint I have about the Axioms is the possibility of damaging the vinyl on the corners if they are moved around a lot. This isn't a concern for most but if you plan on moving them from one place to another for auditions, expect some cosmetic damage. I would expect this to be the case for all vinyl-finished speakers.

As for the 1" HDF, this is not necessarily better. HDF is more dense than MDF and hence it has a higher resonant frequency. The ear is less sensitive to distortion at lower frequencies than higher.

Ultimately, graphs and listening tests are the best way to compare. Where are the graphs for the Aperions?

Now, of course I'm biased, but my general impression of the Aperions (just from reading other people's impressions) is that they're not quite up to the same audio standard as Axiom or Ascend. Never hear much about Ascend any more around these parts... Curtis, where art thou?

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my comment about build quality. that certainly wasn't my intention. Anyway, I agree with kcarlile, that I'd rather put my money into sound reproduction than fit and finish. Perhaps the Aperion folks continue to fall back on the build quality because they are secretly dissatisfied with the sound...but it sure is a nice piece of furniture.

As a group, I've found people here aren't too easily offended. I think you're safe.

In my case, I'd (selfishly) vote for you to buy the Aperions, do an Axiom audition to compare, and then write up a grand comparison review that we could all enjoy.

Hearing an opinion of someone who has done a direct comparison is always very interesting. The only downside to that plan is that if you're like me, I would so loathe packing up & sending back the speakers that once I had them, there would have to be a massive difference for me to consider any other option. (but that might just be me... I'm lazy like that)

On build quality and general appearance, if you like high gloss finishes, I'd recommend you do some searches in this forum for high gloss cherry. (or follow the link in my signature). I can tell you that appearance wise, these are some of the most beautiful speakers I've ever seen. WAF is off the charts.

Good luck with your comparisons. I'm sure we all look forward to hearing what you decide.

Jason

By the way, where do you live? (I didn't see a post in the audition area yet...)

Sound & Vision did a review of the Aperion system in July of last year... I found some graphs here.

The full review is here.

When I read this review compared to the Axiom review from S&V in November of 2007, it seems that the Aperions received more reserved praise than did the Axioms (though in general Aperion still got good marks). Admittedly, this was two different reviewers and not an A/B comparison, but I think it's worth reading both reviews to see what pros/cons are mentioned about both systems.

Note also that the Axiom Epic 80:500 picked up the Editor's Choice award for last year (if that kind of thing holds any sway over you)

Sorry if this sounds biased... I honestly tried not to be, but I just can't help it, I love my Axioms. Enjoy the reviews, please keep us posted on your decision process.

Nice HT setup Jason. I live in Frederick, MD and I haven't placed a post for an audition yet. I'll wait until I get the Aperions, if that's how I decide I want to go. I, like you, am not sure if I have the intestinal fortitude to rebox speakers and send them back. Plus, the Aperions I would want are on backorder and wouldn't ship until 4/14.

I have heard some in the Aperion forum (that I am actively participating in right now also) say they listened to the Axioms and found them to be to "bright." I'm new to this arena so I'm not sure I know how to fully interpret that [I equate "bright" with harsh or tinny], but I'm looking for a speaker system with a nice warm sound. Do you believe the Axioms would fit that bill?

Part of me knows the only way I'll ever know for sure which I like better is to try both. But, the other part just wants to buy speakers and move on and not have to worry about sending one set back. For me, the quad-pole surrounds just might be what sends me completely over the fence into Axiom's back yard. What are your impressions of the QS8's?

Lastly, I see you have the Epson 1080 UB pro. How do you like it. I was planning to buy the 1080 UB (no pro version). How's the picture quality? I would presume when watching HD content either via DVD or satellite/cable, the picture is great, right? What about non-HD content?

Thanks.

I was also considering Aperion when I decided I needed new speakers. The free shipping both ways, CNET reviews, aesthetics, snazzy website, and the fact that they're based in the US were compelling details, but in the end, it seemed like Axiom was more serious about audio science and had the background to prove it. I never got around to hearing the Aperions, even though I have a friend who lives in Portland. I would still like to sometime. Anyway, I like supporting Axiom's philosophy, and I've been very happy with the performance.

As I suspected from Jason's graph post above, the mid-range appears to be depressed on the Aperions. What this translates to is a more "laid back" sound. This means that the vocals will tend to sound like they are behind the plane of the speakers rather than in the plane or slightly in front.

Judging by the graphs, the Aperions will give you a "warmer" sound but it will be grossly inaccurate compared to the 80s and won't give you the large soundstage that the 80s will which extends well beyond the speaker boundaries with the right placement and the right recordings.

I prefer my sound to be more forward and correct. Warm and laid back is fine for background listening.

Lets us know what you think. I personally love my 80s and my wife, who is musically inclined but couldn't really care less about speakers, prefers them to all others that we've auditioned in blind testing.

Jason,

Interesting that you mention the 11/2007 S&V review of the Axiom Epic 80 system. I subscribe to S&V and it was that review that got me interested in Axiom in the first place. Prior to that I was thinking I'd buy Aperion; thus, the mental conflict.

I am glad that forums like this exist though. It's nice to talk to other audio enthusiasts. Whenever I even mention the word speaker to my wife, her eyes immediately start to glaze over. She's perfectly happy with the little paper cones they call speakers in our TV upstairs.

Thank you CV for your opinion. Good points.

Also, thank you Mojo, that was an excellent way to describe why the Aperions might sound "warm." Being a novice to this arena, I appreciate you explaining it in terms I can understand and what you said makes complete sense.

Re: fit and finish.

If you look at pro reviewer comments on finish for various speaker manufacturers you will see that Axiom is always in the top tier. Excellent fit and finish.

I had the pleasure of spending time in the Axiom factory looking at various different speakers in various stages of completeness. They were all flawless. I put my face inches from the top edge of several sets of real wood M80s in unfinished wood and could not find a single nick, gap, seam or any other flaw. If you have done any work with veneers at all, you will appreciate the skill involved.

I think a lot of people that criticize the finish are really commenting on the look of real wood vs. vinyl.

There is no question that a good wood finish is nicer. I think it comes at a price. For me, I would rather spend my money on better sound. For others, that choice may be different. Neither is better or right.

As for bright and harsh, I would put it differently. The M80 is capable of reproducing ALL the sound on any given recording. Poorly recorded material will sound poor. Excellently recorded material will souund absolutely stunning!!

I listened to Dire Straits Live at the BBC, an excellent recording, with both in sterio and 5.1. In stereo it was excellent. In 5.1 it was jaw droppingly amazing. It was like a live performance.

Now, if you put a pair of M80s into a small, completely unfurnished apartment and crank it, no doubt they will sound harsh. Yes, someone on another board actually did this and to this day insists the M80 is bright. (insert several rolleyes here)

Sorry for the rant like post. FWIW, one of the things I really like about this forum is that people seem to take the time to think out what they post and provide reasonably balanced opinions, even if the bias is towards Axiom.

If you go to Aperions website and click the resources link in the bottom tabs you can find Aperions own graphs.

link

You have to download the PDF file to view them. It was these graphs that I based my response on.

So far as the whole Axiom bright issue, I think it comes down to the way the upper end is presented giving the listener a more forward vocal/upper frequency. Funny thing is I have recently read a thread in which the poster referred to the M3s as being too laid back/warm for his tastes, meaning he felt the lower/mid bass ranges were too emphasized for him, which goes to show we all have a different idea of what we want in a speaker.

The audition route is the best way, especially when you are talking the floorstanders, as it wouldn't cost much to ship bookshelves back in comparison to the floorstanders.

But which do you love more?!?

Thanks Fred for sharing your very unique perspective (visiting the Axiom factory). Sound is definitely more important to me than fit and finish. I only brought the issue up because it seems that all of the Aperion folks seem to fall back on that. And, I couldn't agree with you or jakewash more that essentially the best sound is in the ear of the beholder.

BTW, I also saw the vinyl hg cherry next to the real thing. At any distance more than a couple of feet, they look the same. If I could stretch my budget just a little more, I would go for the HG cherry vinyl.

Well, my wife "let me buy" the 80s so I guess she gets a lot of points .

There are so many jokes in that line my brain hurts, like, she doesn't need points, she got the trump card for marrying you

3000 posts Mojo, congrats!

Posts don't feed the family .

New marketing slogan.



"We Don't Feed the Family"

.

Good one!

My wife talked me into going for the M80s, talked me into buying the EP350v3, and bought the VP100 herself.

I like how people brag about their wives here.

In two words, "he** yes"

Seriously, as I write this, I'm sitting in the HT with my wife watching the Dave Matthews Band Live Concert BluRay with my wife. She has literally been marveling at the sound all day. We watched the first hour this afternoon and she was practically begging me to get back in here all day long to listen to the rest. My wife has to this point in life been TOTALLY disinterested in audio. The sounds of the guitar that come through the Axioms in this recording are just unbelievable.

Since we've gotten the Axiom setup in our HT, she's as eager to get in here and listen/watch as I am. (she's a huge DMB fan as well, which doesn't hurt)

Enough about my wife and back to your question... is it a nice warm sound? To me, it is nice,warm, beautiful (pick your adjective). Admittedly, my ears are not "professional grade," but I can tell you that with your stated goal above, I'm 99.9% certain that you'll be ecstatic with the Axioms and never think about sending them back.

Honestly, you might be happy with the Aperions too, I can't say anything bad about them other than about the manual switching required for the surrounds - that would be a total PITA in my book and I don't think it'd be worth it to me to have to go through that when switching audio sources. Even if audio quality was exactly the same between the two, this drawback would be enough to push me to Axiom too (back to the issue of my laziness) By the way, you asked how I like the QS8s... try a search on the forum to get some historical much more detailed reviews as well, but my quick response is that I find them to provide great envelopment for surround material. I also occasionally play my 2-channel audio in 7-channel stereo mode which really brings out the impressive sound of the QS8s.


I'll forward you a PM about the 1080UB so you can stay on topic here. I just wrote some info up for another member here and can pass the same message along.

Have fun shopping, feel free to hit me/us up with more questions.

Because I like their internet-direct approach and they are located in Portland, I've often considered trying out some Aperion speakers.

However, they've only been making speakers for a few years and have not produced tower speakers even that long. Also, a fairly high percentage of their manufacturing takes place overseas. This may not matter to you, of course.

By comparison, Axiom is an R&D company that has been in business for about 20 years, and has been refining both their designs and their Canadian manufacturing facility that entire time. I think that probably counts for something.

Axiom's been in business 27 years.

In my research for high value (i.e. internet-direct) high quality speakers, I often come down to Aperion vs. Axiom. In the end I end up agreeing w/ CV above.



I tell you, though, I don't see any change at all with Aperion's new line of speakers. As a matter of fact, they're not a new line - the 633T and the 634-VAC just changed names. The towers went up by a whopping $200 per speaker, and the center by $100 per speaker. Everything, and I mean everything else is the same. The type (2-way for the tower), size of drivers, even the descriptions on the website are the same. There isn't even anything saying why the new 6T is better, or any other justification for the price hike. I mean I know inflation is an issue (don't even get my wife goin' on the price of eggs), but this was a 40% price increase. At least their new Bravus line of subwoofers has a larger amp, and seems to try to go head to head against the EP-500. I don't know, seems weird to me.

This doesn't sound very appealing .

"Intimus 533-PT Powered Tower Speaker $599.00

Prepare to have your inner ear turned into an erogenous zone."

Ow.

Hey idboy,

The new 6 series uses completely different drivers than the old one. The tweeter has been redesigned to handle more power so it won't distort at extrememly high volumes. The woofers are now a fiberglass weave as opposed to the old carbonfiber woofers and are more expensive for us to produce.

The speakers have also been revoiced for a more full and open sound, and before the final prototypes were approved we all had to agree that it was an improvement on the previous model.

Sure inflation played a role in the decision to raise our prices, since Aperion had not raised prices ever over the course of our eight year history. However, this new line is absolutely an improvement over the old speakers and we still feel that we offer a great value compared to other brands in our price bracket and even those that are still a bit more pricey.

While I haven't heard the 6 series since we voiced them a few months ago, the new 5 series speakers totally blow the old ones out of the water and when our inital shipment of 6 series product arrives I fully expect them to be a similar step up in sound quality.

Nice to see that folks are having friendly open minded discussions of Aperion product here, seems to be a very cool community.

Sounds like they might be worth a listen.

Well what a pleasant surprise! I respect a company that monitors the competition's boards and posts when they see a discrepancy. Thank you for your candid and timely response. My apologies for assuming. I had noticed the difference in description of the composition of the drivers, but had written it off, apparently mistakenly. I also respect your recognition of the issues of inflation - to which we are all susceptible.

When I get down to updating the audio side of my theater setup (first step - projector and screen), I will keep Aperion as well as Axiom in my sights.

Hey! how'd he get past the big hairy gorrillas at the door??

Who are you calling a gorilla?

My Mom used to tell me stories of how she fell in love with my Dad at the Zoo. Then she felt sorry for him being trapped there, so she helped him escape, shaved his back, and brought him home.

For all the good traits I got from my Dad, I'd trade a couple in if I could also trade in a hairy back.

What traits? Banana loving or the other "kind" of monkey traits? If it is the latter, I now understand why you have 15 minutes in between patients!

That explains a lot!

This all just makes me suspicious and uncomfortable.

If anybody is to be commended here, it's Axiom.

Yes, Axiom should be commended but Mr. Hicks should also be commended for not over hyping his product on someone else's forum, although I think a PM to idboy might have been slightly more respectful to Axiom or would that been seen as underhanded, hmmm, just gotta love ethics.

You know, I do peel bananas from the non-stem end, just like apes do. It's easier that way.

And my wife and I have quite the grooming rituals going on. We comment that we're such apes.

Thanks for the kind words guys.

Sure I could have PM'd idboy, but I felt like everyone on the board deserved to have the opportunity to know what we are trying to accomplish with our new line of speakers.

I certainly don't know the etiquette in this situation, but there's nothing to be suspicious about. Although I realize that all you have to go on is my word. All that being said I'm happy to hire my services out to both Aperion and Axiom and serve as an A/B reviewer.

Hey, we're talking primates, here! What gives with this interruption and hijacking this thread to talk about loudspeakers! Well, I never!

Loudspeakers, indeed. Where do they think we are, anywa ----

~ ~ ~

Like I said Jason, you were in a no win situation coming onto another speaker companies forum. It might have seemed underhanded to send a PM to idboy, in that you were trying to solicit him, while posting on the board was possibly disrespectful. I think you did ok, except for the link to the home page, that's a bit in bad taste.

http://settle.down.jakewash

link does not work

CNN is reporting today that certain HTTP tunnels are closed for maintenance.

Oh, the tubes must have gotten clogged from all those trucks that people keep dumping stuff on. Wait, that's not it. The internet is not just something that you dump something on; it's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes!

Lost? Google "Ted Stevens" tubes.

If you have to explain your own joke, I guess you have to work harder on the next one. Wait, work hard? Hmmm...

not a big deal to me.

The link, the internet tubes, or working hard?

All of the above!!


Oh, wait, that was for Randy.

Just wait till I get going!.......now, where was I?