M60's or M80's

Posted by: gpspolice

M60's or M80's - 04/09/08 08:23 PM

Here is my dilema:

I LOVE the look of Real Maple finished speakers (M60's) but feel like my room size (16' x 20' x 9') will make the M80's a better fit for the room. I can't afford the M80's in Real Maple finish. SO the question of oppinion is to owners.

kick ass finish M60's
cheaper finish M80's

????
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/09/08 08:41 PM

Save up until you can afford M80s...in the finish that satisfies your desires.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/09/08 08:44 PM

My room is much bigger than yours and I owned 60's for over 2 years and they performed great and rocked the room. I do own 80's now, but I would get what you want if finish is important. Or, save up and get the 80's in that finish....
Posted by: jakewash

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/09/08 09:15 PM

The bigger question isn't so much the total room size but how far away you plan on being from the speakers. I will guess not the full 20' nor 16'. So M60s or M80s would work equally as well.

The next question is how loud do you see yourself playing them? In my experience with the 2 speakers in question the M60s at louder volumes sound very similar to the M80s, it is at lower volumes that the M80s have the advantage, lots of detail and still good bass.

If you are at all inclined to any upgradeitis, then the M80s in a custom finish is the way to go. This way there is no upgrade possible, except for thousands of dollars more.
Posted by: Wid

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/09/08 09:44 PM


M80s \:\)
Posted by: OmahaBlu

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/09/08 10:02 PM

I had the 60s briefly and loved them. However, I found myself always coming back here to just gaze at the 80s. I ended up upgraded to the 80s, just finally got them today. I think you know yourself best. If you know that sometime down the road you are going to be wishing you got the 80s, I say get the 80s fancy finish or not.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/09/08 10:41 PM

Try playing m60's or m80's in a small room, say 150 sq ft or less, then jump to 900 sq ft, and there is a difference. It is not all about how far you are away from the speakers.

Room reinforcement, acoustics, room characteristics, etc., all play a role in the outcome of what you hear.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/09/08 10:48 PM

I think you'll do fine with M60s.

Says the owner of M50s and M80s.
Posted by: fredk

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/10/08 07:03 PM

Don't listen to that kcarlisle guy. He's a 1/2 watt shy of a full load! ;\)
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/10/08 10:35 PM

... and apparently one letter more than a correct last name.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/15/08 10:44 AM

The M80's are 4 ohm, though, IIRC, so going with them may well require a heftier amp.

I'm occasionally tempted by the M80's for my upcoming purchase but would rather not have to buy twice the amp -- currently looking at the Yamaha RX-V663 (wish the 863's price delta weren't so big) with 2xM60+VP150+2xQS8



Posted by: jakewash

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/15/08 01:13 PM

Not really, a number of us run the Denon 3808 and I ran my M80s for a while with a Denon 1804, So you don't have to buy a heftier amp, just one that is well built. I would be very surprised if the newer Yamahas you are looking at couldn't run the M80s.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/15/08 01:22 PM

My Denon 2805 had no issues with my 80's at very loud levels, prior to me getting my Odyssey monoblocks. \:\)
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 04:17 AM

 Originally Posted By: jakewash
Not really, a number of us run the Denon 3808 and I ran my M80s for a while with a Denon 1804, So you don't have to buy a heftier amp, just one that is well built. I would be very surprised if the newer Yamahas you are looking at couldn't run the M80s.

Well, the Denon 3808 at $1000-ish and 130 wpc x 7 and 39 lbs would seem to be heftier than a Yamaha RX-V663 at $410-ish and 26 lbs, no? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to understand what does/doesn't work, and to make a decision to stick with M60/RX-V668 or go M60/3808 or M80/3808.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 05:26 AM

or M80 RX-V663, I think it should be possible.My Denon 1804 was only about 26lbs. I wasn't thinking about weight/costs in relation to the heftier comment. I was thinking more in terms of power quality (seperates) for some reason.

Let's put it this way if you can afford the more expensive price tag, then why not? It isn't wasted money as the higher end AVR's have more power and extra features/connections the lower ones do not. For me the network connectivity is what sold me on the 3808.

Go for the combination that will work best for your needs, If the 663 has everything that you want, go ahead and get it, if the M80s sound like the speakers you really want, get them. You can always add 2 monoblocks to the system if you find the 663 just doesn't quite meet your power needs for the M80s.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 01:31 PM

Well, no, my wife probably wouldn't let me spend more in the future (or add more boxes to the installation), especially once our baby hatches, so I feel that I need to plan a surgical strike in my window of opportunity ;). On the more-expensive price tag issue, I haven't talked $ with her yet but I'm sure that the higher I go the more resistance I'll get. She's already not all that happy about my 61" being in the living room and kinda wanted me to sell it so we could just use her 20" CRT/VHS/DVD combo unit -- so you see what I'm up against here :-/

I'm planning 5.0 or 5.1 -- seating will pretty much be against the back wall so the value of rear surrounds would seem to be especially limited -- and the value of diffuse QS4/8's to be high.

2xM60+VP150+2xQS8 from the outlet + RX-V663 = USD ~2100. At the other extreme, 2xM80+VP150+2xQS8+EP350 in real wood with a Denon 3808 would be USD ~4800. Accounts here seem to be that Axiom's vinyl is of high quality, so I'm thinking that I'll regretfully skip the substantial added cost for real wood veneer -- hopefully Axiom's "Boston Cherry" vinyl will more or less match the "Brazilian Cherry" flooring in the new room (she's already surprised me by saying that vinyl would be okay). Probably on the realistic high end I'd be looking at a 3808+outlet(2xM80,VP150,2xQS4) for USD ~3000, with the added cost of the M80's and 3808 making it difficult to justify Axiom's spendy EP350 sub.

As you can tell, I can be maddeningly indecisive when presented with more than one tradeoff axis. On one hand, the guy in me wants more power and more whizzy features on general principles, but on the other hand, my dead brother's 2.0 Bose 501 Series IV's driven by a late-80's Sony 70w stereo rcvr have seemed fine for me so far, in a room of roughly the same dimensions. Most of what I've read seems to indicate that driving a 4 ohm load like the M80's with a modest Yamaha receiver wouldn't be a good idea.

So, I need to try to predict in advance if the M60's with the high-value-at-the-price-point Yamaha RX-V663 would be enough in the new room. I have a feeling they would be, given that my existing Sony + Bose setup in a similar but carpeted room rarely goes above 3/10 volume.

I initially didn't care about the network connectivity, as it's easy enough to plug an iPod dock into any receiver. Then I read that Denon's network audio streaming only works with an MS-DOS machine, so it'd only be useful for downloading firmware updates.

I'd be happy with a receiver that didn't do video at all - my Samsung TV has 2x HDMI, 2x component, 2x S-video. 99+% of the time I'm just using the HDMI's -- one for my Oppo, the other for ITMS TV shows via laptop. Having to push two buttons on two remotes instead of one to switch sources is no big deal for me. I should think that sometime in the next year or two Oppo will come out with a BD/DVD combo unit that I'd upgrade to. The only other HDMI I can envision would potentially be an HD Dish or cable (spit) STB. Mainly what I'm after here is surround effects for DVDs and the odd TV show that has them, and the idea of an automated level/EQ setup (YPAO or Audessy) has a certain appeal.

Freedom is slavery :-/
Posted by: Hutzal

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 03:44 PM

I have a 5.1 system in Boston Cherry. MY house is up for sale right now and I am expecting a buyer to want to purchase the whole shabang with the Axiom system and 92" screen (with projector).

That being said, I will not go back to boston cherry, I will be opting for Rosewood next time around. The boston cherry is a nice vinyl, but it is by no means real wood. If anything, at least swing a High Gloss boston cherry, or get a custm vinyl. If you really want the real wood, just go with it man. Go with the real wood and the RX-V663.
Posted by: JasonC

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 06:40 PM

Anthony, you're all over the place...reminds me of where I was at last November \:\) So many choices, so many things to think about. I had an old Sony receiver, 50w I think, and some even older Kenwood speakers that worked fine for me for years. The only reason I was looking at upgrading was because I was looking at a new TV and didn't think my crappy old audio equipment would do the new TV justice.

I ended up throwing my budget out the window and got the Epic 60-600 system along with a Denon 3808. I couldn't be more pleased.

Anyways, on to your situation...

2xM60 + VP150 + 2xQS8 + RX-V663 (config you listed)
Not bad. I love my M60s, they produce more bass than I thought they would, but without a sub it's still not enough for my liking.

M60 + VP150 + QS8 + EP350 + RX-V663
I think this would sound much better than the above config.

M22 + VP100 + QS4 + EP175 + RX-V663
If budget is a big concern, this setup is worth considering.

2xM80 + VP150 + 2xQS4 + 3808 (config you listed)
This doesn't look bad, but if you are going to spend this much money you might as well spend the extra $150 and upgrade to the QS8.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 06:49 PM

Are you saying that the Boston Cherry looks cheesy? Not sure that I could justify a 25% premium for custom vinyl or 50% for custom wood :-(
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 07:11 PM

I don't think the EP350 is "spendy". At all.

If you have a good place to put it, don't discount the notion of getting a VP100 instead of a VP150 to save a little coin.

I'd get the Yamaha, real wood 60's and a sub. You might not need real wood for the other speakers, depending upon where they are located and what your decorating scheme is like.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 07:24 PM

 Originally Posted By: JasonC
Anthony, you're all over the place...reminds me of where I was at last November \:\) So many choices, so many things to think about.

Indeed. Heck, I started out just wanting to add surrounds and a center to my existing Bose beasts, was looking at Atlantic Technology bookshelves. Then the Polk RtiA8's looked good, and now I find myself here
 Quote:
The only reason I was looking at upgrading was because I was looking at a new TV and didn't think my crappy old audio equipment would do the new TV justice.

There's some of that for me, too. Sometimes I'll be watching a show with a high-quality soundtrack (eg. Supernatural) and will find myself wondering what'd be coming out of those extra 3/4 speakers that I don't have next to my 61".
 Quote:
I ended up throwing my budget out the window and got the Epic 60-600 system along with a Denon 3808. I couldn't be more pleased.

Holy subsonics Batman! I have to admit that even the EP350 sub smells like overkill at this point to me.
 Quote:
Anyways, on to your situation...

Some of the below configs are just the Epic [68]0 350's from the web site. I started out aiming for the VP100 center but the Axiom advisor guy kinda upsold me to the VP150. Sigh. Looks like the CLD-99's not going to fit in the stand any more -- not that it gets much use any more..
 Quote:
M60 + VP150 + QS8 + EP350 + RX-V663
I think this would sound much better than the above config.

2xM80 + VP150 + 2xQS4 + 3808 (config you listed)
This doesn't look bad, but if you are going to spend this much money you might as well spend the extra $150 and upgrade to the QS8.

WTF did I write QS4 in there? I meant QS8. 1948.45 outlet + 1000 or so for the Denon beast to drive them all.

Any thoughts on 2xM80 + VP150 + 2xQS8 + 3808 (~$3000) without a sub vs. 2x M60 + VP150 + 2x QS8 + EP350 + RX-V663 (~$2700)? I'm guessing that the extra woofer in the M80 wouldn't really make up for not having a sub -- but I could be out of my vulcanmind. In the end, though, I'm sure that any of these configs will be way better than what I have now.

Just for gins, my old room (moving in 9 days -- sigh) and the new room (the staging stuff isn't staying).









Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 07:46 PM

What a cool house!

If you watch a lot of movies, you'll want a sub. You can always get it later, of course.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 08:34 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
What a cool house!

The old one? Yep, I love it a lot, but being on the outskirts of Monroe is kind of inconvenient, especially for my fiance' and incipient rugrat. The new place is a duplex townhouse (@#$@# Microcult millionaires have inflated the housing market) but fairly nice for its ilk. There's a CAT5e+coax run to a panel in the alcove, which will be very convenient. I haven't even thought about what to do with the wires for the surrounds (or where to place a sub if I get one) - hopefully I can find some sort of decent-looking raceway to lay on the floor rather than paying someone big bucks to fish it through the wall.
 Quote:
If you watch a lot of movies, you'll want a sub. You can always get it later, of course.

Yep, we do watch lots of movies and TV shows (the latter mostly on DVD) but I suspect that truly enjoyable volume levels will seldom be feasible once the baby hatches :-/. There's the WAF factor for add-on purchases, though, and it might be tough for me to float a ~$650 EP350 purchase later. The kid's room (gotta call it a room tho it's the size of the closets in my old place) of course is conveniently riiiiight underneath the TV alcove.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/16/08 09:10 PM

 Originally Posted By: anthony11
Any thoughts on 2xM80 + VP150 + 2xQS8 + 3808 (~$3000) without a sub vs. 2x M60 + VP150 + 2x QS8 + EP350 + RX-V663 (~$2700)? I'm guessing that the extra woofer in the M80 wouldn't really make up for not having a sub -- but I could be out of my vulcanmind. In the end, though, I'm sure that any of these configs will be way better than what I have now.


You are between a rock and a hard place. You are right either one will sound much better than the old set up. I would still go for the M80s but drop the VP150 to the VP100 and then add the sub. The drop from the 150 to the 100 is hardly noticable to me(I own both if I haven't mentioned it before) and the benfits of a sub outweigh any benfit the 150 could give. I now it is still adding to the overall cost but it sounds like this could be the only chance you have for the best HT setup allowable for the near and distant future.
Posted by: SRoode

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/17/08 07:35 AM

From the picture it looks like your old mains are Bose 501s? If so, I think even the M50s would sound better ;\)

I would seriously go with the 2xM80 + VP150 + 2xQS8 for now. The M80s are really good down to about 30Hz or so. Without the sub, you'd be losing the 20-30Hz "kick". For music it's not so much of a loss, but you would miss it in movies. If you feel down the road that you need more bass, you can always add the sub. Trading up mains is more of a hassle.

I bought 2 EP500s last month, and I'm still tweaking things. But in my theater (18.5'x16'x8.5'), I only have them set at the 6:30pm position and I'm peaking at 82db in the 20-30Hz range! If I were to do it over, I may have gone with 1 EP600 instead.
Posted by: Hutzal

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/17/08 09:46 AM

 Originally Posted By: anthony11
Are you saying that the Boston Cherry looks cheesy? Not sure that I could justify a 25% premium for custom vinyl or 50% for custom wood :-(




I am not saying that the boston cherry's are cheesy by any means. But if you think they will match your floor, I would order a sample first to see if the finish will match. The cost of a sample is deducted from your final order.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/17/08 11:59 AM

 Originally Posted By: SRoode
From the picture it looks like your old mains are Bose 501s? If so, I think even the M50s would sound better ;\)

Yep, Series IV's. My late brother's pride and joy. If I can make this Axiom purchase I'll need to figure out what to do with them.
Posted by: LT61

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/17/08 11:37 PM

M60's
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 12:44 AM

I have the 601 series IIs from 1984. It took me years and years to set them up optimally but when I did, the soundstage was superb. Then I got the M80s and realized I was missing 80% of the sound spectrum with the 601s.

Save up for an extra month and buy the 80s. You won't regret it.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 05:12 PM

It's not really a question of saving up -- in the USA tradition, anything I buy will rack up interest on a credit card -- but rather the inverse correlation between system cost and WAF when the time comes to order (hopefully next month!).

It's not just the $300 difference between outlet M60's and M80's, but also the need for a more powerful amp to handle the 4-ohm M80's, which makes it more like a $900 difference.

On a tangent, I wonder what makes the M60 with three big drivers 8-ohm but the VP150 with three big drivers 6-ohm. One would think they'd both be the same. Or are these impedance ratings kinda rounded?
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 05:13 PM

It would depend on the crossover, I would think.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 05:27 PM

 Originally Posted By: Mojo
I have the 601 series IIs from 1984. It took me years and years to set them up optimally but when I did, the soundstage was superb.

My 501sIV's are from .... hmmmm ... 1987 or so I think. What sort of things did you do to optimize their setup? I may end up sticking them in the tiny bedroom I'll be using for my office if/when I can score me some Axiom love. One day if I finish off all or part of the ground-floor garage for an office / media room the Axiom setup might migrate there and I'd use the Bose/Sony just for music upstairs. My brother is no longer with us so they have sentimental value. MAN I wish the artist who built the place had run conduit for speaker wires...

 Quote:
It would depend on the crossover, I would think.

OIC.
Posted by: NDinUSA

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 05:29 PM

Elope and go for the M80s. Money better spent. I hope my wife doesn't see this.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 05:32 PM

 Originally Posted By: NDinUSA
Elope and go for the M80s. Money better spent. I hope my wife doesn't see this.

\:D I hear you. We definitely have different priorities wrt the wedding stuff.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 06:15 PM

Here are the things I did:

- Speakers usually benefit from the golden triangle rule which says to make an equilateral triangle between you and your speakers. I found that the 601s didn't work this way. I had to space them considerably further apart than the distance I sat away from them. In my set-up, they were 10 feet apart and I was 6 feet away. This works out to be a ratio of 1.67:1 instead of the golden 1:1.

- I moved the backs of the enclosures 2 feet away from the wall I faced. This made a huuuuuuge improvement in soundstage depth.

- Toed them in 30 degrees from the normal. This focused the centre image which otherwise was too big.

- Kept them equidistant from sidewalls. This tremendously improved the imaging.

- Crossed them over at 100Hz.

- Turned up the treble half-way from 0.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 06:26 PM

You turned up the treble?!

Obviously we have different ways of listening to speakers. ;\)
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 06:33 PM

I keep tone controls set to flat with the M80s. It's a different story with the Boses.
Posted by: St_PatGuy

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 06:39 PM

 Originally Posted By: Mojo
It's a different story with the Boses.


That's Bosi.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 06:56 PM

Oh, missed that bit. Nemmind...

I thought it was Bozos.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 08:03 PM

Ah. These 501's have no external controls.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 08:53 PM

I was referring to the controls on my integrated receiver.

Mine also have a single post on the back with a red tag that reads "Do not connect. Intended for a future sonic virtualizer.". This post has no internal connection...oops! \:\)
Posted by: jakewash

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 09:08 PM

So they followed their own advice and didn't connect.!
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 09:41 PM

Bosen. It's bosen. In German, you'd just add an umluat to make it Böse, which translates to any of the following: devil, evil, diabolical, annoyed, angry, exasperated, pissed off.... You get the picture. \:\)
Posted by: JohnK

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/18/08 10:06 PM

Anthony, assuming a "need for a more powerful amp" if you get the M80s may lack any factual basis. Since the M80s have a slightly above average sensitivity(requiring less power than the M60s, for example)they and other 4 ohm rated speakers of similar sensitivity have been operated for years with modest receivers without difficulty. You appear to more concerned with the rated impedances of speakers than the power they actually require in typical home operation.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 01:06 AM

 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Anthony, assuming a "need for a more powerful amp" if you get the M80s may lack any factual basis. Since the M80s have a slightly above average sensitivity(requiring less power than the M60s, for example)they and other 4 ohm rated speakers of similar sensitivity have been operated for years with modest receivers without difficulty. You appear to more concerned with the rated impedances of speakers than the power they actually require in typical home operation.


I'm just concerned by the conventional wisdom that plugging 4 ohm speakers into an amp that's nominally rated for 8 can result in the amp getting very hot, shutting down, clipping, etc. I don't have any firsthand knowledge in this arena and want to be sure that if I plunk down $500+ for an AVR that I'm getting what I need, and won't damage my shiny new Axiom investment.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 11:41 AM

You won't damage the Axioms, as you said it is the amp that gets hotter etc but only if you drive the speakers hard. You will still only need 1 watt to achieve 91-95db depending on the room. That 91-95 is about as loud as most people go, the rest of the power/watts the amp has is used for peaks in the material you are listening to.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 12:11 PM

I dunno... you could induce clipping if you turn it up too high, which ain't good for speakers.

That said, I'm using an H/K 525, rated at 85WPC for 4 ohm loads to drive my M80s.
Posted by: Argon

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 12:33 PM

I am woefully ignorant of the technical details of how much power is required to drive the 90-95 db sound level or how hard a receiver must work to drive the M80's. Most of the posts I read in here state that receivers like the Denon 3800 or 2800 series or the Yamaha 1800 and up. I just bought the Yamaha RX V663 AVR as a means to pick up HDMI for a future Blue Ray and to pick up the latest Dolby capability. The 663 is rated at 95 wpc for 5.1 - I know that this type question gets asked ad nauseum - but would the 663 drive the M80's?..........Rob
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 12:37 PM

How loud are you going to play them?
Posted by: Murph

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 12:39 PM

Every room is a bit different but you can use this calculator as a guide to estimating wattage required. It's near the bottom of the page after nice explanation of the terminology used.

Allegtro - Amplifier Power calculator
Posted by: Argon

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 12:50 PM

Well...I will not be playing them all that loudly - which I know is a relative statement. The loudest would be during movies - which the majority of the time I would be watching with my wife. So the volume would be at a nice, sane level. Having said that, with this receiver, would I need to be concerned with the volume in relation to the M80s? I misspoke slightly, the amp is rated at 95 WPC for 7.1. I thought that I had made up my mind that the M60s were more than I would ever need.....but then I keep coming back and reading these posts and....well you know how it goes......Rob
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 12:52 PM

Eh, you'll probably be fine, then. You can always add an outboard amp later (pending WAF...)
Posted by: jakewash

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 01:28 PM

I had my M80s hooked up to my Denon 1804 which had 95WPC and it was fine and went plenty loud, I remember about 100db before I could hear some distortion.

Like Ken said you will be fine.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 01:37 PM

If it was me I would give the 60's some real thought. Yes, that Yammy will drive 80's, however, historically Axiom has not had Yamaha on the list of recommended AVR's as lab tests showed they would over heat and shut down. Never models may be beefier, not sure. Rest assured you would not have any concerns with the 60's, and sonically they are very similar to 80's.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 04:17 PM

 Originally Posted By: Argon
Well...I will not be playing them all that loudly - which I know is a relative statement. The loudest would be during movies - which the majority of the time I would be watching with my wife. So the volume would be at a nice, sane level. Having said that, with this receiver, would I need to be concerned with the volume in relation to the M80s? I misspoke slightly, the amp is rated at 95 WPC for 7.1. I thought that I had made up my mind that the M60s were more than I would ever need.....but then I keep coming back and reading these posts and....well you know how it goes......Rob

In the immortal words of Bart Simpson, "It's like you're readin' my mind, man!"

This is exactly where I am. Started out wanting to add a center and surrounds to my existing Bose 501's in my spacious existing area and was looking at Atlantic Technology 920/1200 bookshelves based on some recommendations at AVS. Then I came across people praising the gospel according to Axiom, and the bit about the QS4/8 working better when placed close to the listeners caught my attention - new place has a different layout and I wouldn't be able to place the surrounds that far back. So I poked around and thought that 2xM60+VP100+2xQS4 would do me. I asked the Axiom advisor and sent photos of the new space and he suggested upselling to the VP150 and QS8's. Then I was happy with that idea and maybe a sub, when I started reading people talking about the M80's being orgasmically better especially in a room my size, but then also it seemed that the RX-V663 I was eyeing might not be up to the task of the M80's so then I started looking at the Denon 3808. Where does it end? Sigh. I in theory have WAF approval but don't know that she understands how much $ we're talking here.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 04:18 PM

 Originally Posted By: Murph
Every room is a bit different but you can use this calculator as a guide to estimating wattage required. It's near the bottom of the page after nice explanation of the terminology used. Allegtro - Amplifier Power calculator


It seems to indicate that I need 250 wpc, which seems excessive.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 04:18 PM

It doesn't end.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 04:21 PM

How did you arrive at that value? What are your inputs?

Also, that is also a shop that sells amps, so they might just have a conflict of interest here....
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 04:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
It doesn't end.

Not what I wanted to hear
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 04:25 PM

 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
How did you arrive at that value? What are your inputs?

"To handle heavy metal/grunge, the amplifier's 4-Ohm power should be 2.5 x 100W or 250W continuous (RMS) per channel."

When I punch numbers into the form, which doesn't ask about impedance, it tells me 23 wpc.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 04:30 PM

But that's with a 100W continuous power rating. Which Axiom does not specify. I would guess that the lower rating is a tad closer. When I drop in my figures (75dB, 25dB headroom) I end up with ~40W. Bump it to 80dB (which is pretty loud, esp with 25dB of headroom), it's 127W.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 05:01 PM

Most metal grunge isn't going to need 25 db of headroom, try more around 10-15 max., 25 db is in the realm of classical and there is alot of classical pieces out there with that much dynamic range and more. Most recent metal/grunge/pop has very little dynamic range as it isn't good for play on the airwaves.

When you punch in the 10-15 db headroom the power requirements drop quite a bit, for most listening levels 80-95db, IIRC, it usually amounts to around 100WPC.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 05:19 PM

 Originally Posted By: jakewash
e. Most recent metal/grunge/pop has very little dynamic range as it isn't good for play on the airwaves.

Most recent metal/pop isn't worth listening to anyway. Bruce Springsteen's f**king it all up ;\)
Posted by: Mojo

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 05:20 PM

Metal grunge sounds like about 3dB of headroom to me \:\) .
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 05:23 PM

Warpigs! I headbang old-school (when I'm not grooving to October Project).
Posted by: Argon

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 10:13 PM

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
If it was me I would give the 60's some real thought. Yes, that Yammy will drive 80's, however, historically Axiom has not had Yamaha on the list of recommended AVR's as lab tests showed they would over heat and shut down. Never models may be beefier, not sure. Rest assured you would not have any concerns with the 60's, and sonically they are very similar to 80's.


Sirquack,
I have said several times that my current ragtag band of speakers is embarrasing - so I am sure that when I pull the trigger if it is to be the M60's, I will be blown out of the water anyway. Maybe I'll go with the 60's (sounds like a mortar - in keeping with the "blown away" analogy) and get one of the custom finishes. Does anyone have the Warm Cherrywood finish out there? What color grill?............Rob
Posted by: Ascension

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/21/08 11:07 PM

I have the warm cherrywood m60's w/ burnt sienna grilles. I love those speakers!
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/22/08 02:51 AM

I would *love* the real Cherry veneer with the Bordeaux finish - seems like it'd be the closest to matching my new floors. The economics may dictate staying with the vinyl, though :-/

Ascension, how big is the room you have those M60's in, and what are you driving them with?
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/22/08 09:33 AM

Anthony, my first Axiom setup consisted of m60's, I owned them for 2-3 years. My room is 900 Sq Ft and the 60's did a fine job.
Posted by: Ascension

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/22/08 11:03 PM

26l*17w*7h. It sounds REAL good Anthony. Personally, I don't see a reason for me to go w/ the 80's. Would I like to listen to them, Yes I would, but, I'm perfectly happy w/ my 60's. I'm just waiting for the rest of my system. I'm pushing them right now w/ a HK AVR247. They go way louder than I would ever want to push them.
Posted by: anthony11

Re: M60's or M80's - 04/23/08 10:35 AM

Sounds like I should just go with the M60's, and if they seem wanting, upgrade within 30 days.

2305.65 outlet vs. 3299.35 real wood. hmmmm.....