Ok just did the latest Denon 3808 update and reset the processor, Audyysey shows nothing set up.

LFE XO=60(for all tests) 31.5hz tone(for all tests)

Fronts=small, LFE - In stereo mode there was a sub and the crossover is active. In Pure Direct and direct there was no sub.

Fronts=small, LFE+Mains - same as above no sub for PD nor D and sub with crossover for stereo mode

Speakers=large, LFE - Nothing to sub

Speakers=large, LFE+Mains - all modes have sub and no crossover.

There is a separate setting for xo and sub for 2 channel mode. Go to the advanced playback menu, then 2 channel mode, then turn it on and set xo and LFE.

You have to turn on the sub manually in PD. Put the AVR in PD, and press the "CH Sel/Enter" button on the AVR (it's the center button of the directional buttons). Scroll down to SW, and turn it on to the level you like.

As you said, advanced mode in 2 channel setup, if it's in basic mode it defaults to the same settings as the rest. The advanced mode appears to simply allow a different crossover for 2 channel if it is preferred, compared to the usual setting.

Never realized that in PD or D the sub would have to be turned on manually.

Yeah, too bad you can't turn on the subwoofer when listening to network audio because the center button is a FRIGGIN PAUSE BUTTON... gee I hate that!

Anyway- if you can turn the sub on for direct mode that is pretty neat I guess

Guys,

I found this thread over at AVS forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=39c3c77292dbf118ad49baeb8d2619f3&t=687600

It's a long one, but some people seemed to have this discussion 2 years ago. It's a very interesting read, and the founder and CTO of Audessey Labs even posts to clear some stuff up!

Two of his quotes (this is from the man himself):

"The simple solution is to make the bass management mode (under Subwoofer mode in the setup menu) to be "LFE+Main". In retrospect, I believe this should be the default mode for the receiver, but in any case this is a simple thing to check. Putting the system in this mode allows "Large" speakers to be bass managed at the crossover frequency found by MultEQ (you can see what this is in the crossover set up menu once you switch to LFE+Main."

and:

"The simplest way to think of it is: Large will not be bass managed and Small will. If you ar lucky to have a true Large speaker that has a –3 dB cutoff of 20 Hz then this is not a problem. If you don't then you have to make sure that the bass below the actual cutoff is sent to the subwoofer. That can only happen if you set the subwoofer mode to LFE+Main.

LFE+Main will send bass to the sub and the mains as you say. This is not as bad as you think because the main speakers are actually crossed over to the sub at the frequency that was determined to be optimal. For example, if that happens to be 60 Hz, then anything below that goes to the sub and anything above it goes to the satellites (even if they were found to be Large)."

SO my crossover isn't working right then? I have output through the mains at 40 hz but XO is 60. When the speakers are in small/stereo(LFE,LFE+Main) mode, the XO is working. The 40hz tone barely moves the driver on the M80, but when in large(LFE+Main), the driver on the M80 moves alot, indicating no crossover. And Audyysey hasn't been run, so it shouldn't have affected anything.

Another interesting quote from that link:

"First, regarding the "Large" vs "Small" issue. This is purely a matter of definition. In the Denon receivers (following the spec set by Tom Holman for THX--note Tom is an Audyssey co-founder) a speaker is called "Large" if it can reproduce frequencies below 80 Hz. You can argue with this, but it happens to a matter of definition. That means, that in the default bass management mode of the receiver, ALL bass below 80 Hz will be lost. Yikes!"

So even my M22s would classify as a large speaker and it certainly explains why the VP150 gets listed as large.


Found one more quote from the link, from Roger from Dolby labs:

"The question is only whether or not bass management is being applied. Bass management cannot happen at any frequency unless the speaker is set for small, just as Chris stated in his last definition."

Which is what I show.

Jason,

As I said in the other post, that is the anomaly. This is how Denon AVRs work:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=207338#Post207338

I am using small with LFE and everything seems to be working like it should... crossover is set to 40hz, sometimes 60 for music.

Crossover is set to 60 hz for movies. (on mains only- higher on vp150 and qs8's)

If it's an anomaly, I'm a member of the affected class. Mine do the same thing with the 3808.

Speakers set to large, with sub at main + LFE and XO to the speakers seems to be ignored. Speakers set to small, the rest the same, and the XO is engaged.

I made a mistake in my posting on the first page where it states:

"Speakers=large, LFE+Mains - all modes have sub and no crossover"

The crossover is active you just have full range mains. The crossover does not filter out below the XO point, a doubling of the bass as Ken mentioned in the other thread.

My testing also proves that my statement from the other thread of small speaker setting with LFE or LFE+mains makes no difference, as the xo is active for both settings, so all below the XO and LFE is sent to the sub making the LFE or LFE+ setting not necessary when speakers are set to small.

The correct setting for the subwoofer can be either LFE or LFE+Mains, when mains are set to small it makes no difference, as proven in my tests. If the mains are set to large then it is individual taste as LFE+Mains gives you full range mains and an active sub from the XO down or just LFE and take the sub out of the equation.

Thats what I thought from the beginning :).

I think everything is workintg exactly like denon wanted it to.. makes perfect sense to me really.