Alright,

So I have bought some M60's, VP150 and a brand new Denon 3808. I did the basic Audyssey setup with 6 points. I have a velodyn 10" subwoofer. I installed everything about 2 weeks ago or so. Not to impressed with the sound, but did not really have anything to compare it to. I had a customer of mine who went to Best Buy and purchased Definitve towers open box (half the price of what I paid), Denon 1908 receiver (Not even close to the Denon 3808 receiver that I have and 1/3 of the Price), Definitive center channel (Very small and again not close to the VP150), and Definitive small book shelf speakers for surrounds. He did not buy a sub as the towers have 8" sub in them. I also just performed the Audyssey setup right out of the box as I am the one who installed the system for him. I am just playing a simple song with 2.1 and his system just blows mine away. His is alot more acurate, cleaner sound, and you can hear all of the details when mine is very very flat. Doesn't make sense. My system should be a lot better sounding. I am just not happy with what I got. Any Ideas to improve what is going on. My sounds, sounds very flat. Highs seems good, but mids are just not there and lows are horrible too. Maybe my sub is not doing the job, but still I am expecting the M60's to really out perform on their own. What’s going on?? Any help is much appreciated. Just not to happy with all the money I have invested in this system.

Make sure the Audyssey Flat setting is not used. I did that once and it made everything sound one dimensional.

Thanks for the help!

I actually have turned the Audyssey setting to none, which sounds a bit better. But still not as impressive as the Definitive’s.

I've never heard Def Tech speakers and don't know what they're signature sound is (if there is such a thing). Come to think of it, I've never heard M60s either. I've owned Axiom M40s and M3s, which have a different sound than the rest of the line.

It may be that you just like the Def Techs better. Hopefully others will chime in with suggestions to try. Don't give up on the Axioms yet!

Yea - Something has to be wrong. I wonder if my Denon 3808 is just something wrong with it. As I have seen HTIB's sound better than my setup currently. Just fusterating when you have spent a lot of money and you are not happy with what you have got. To be honestly, if the Definitives where even just a little better, I dont think I would mind. But I am talking a hugh difference, that even a basic listner would be easy to tell the difference.

That makes me tend to believe something is wrong with the set up. Do you have another amplifier to hook up to the M60s? It's time to try trouble shooting and find out what the source of the problem is.

Double check the straps running from the bottom speaker connector to the top one is in straight and not sitting on top of the washers, as well as the wires not out of phase, although if you ran Audyssey it should have picked that up. I would also reset the processor in the 3808 and not run Audyssey until you have listened for awhile with out it then you can compare the sound differences.

If the Def tech's have an 8" driver it may just out do the M60s in the bass department and I know the M60s are a little more laid back than the M80s so you may just need to spend a few hundred more to achieve the sound you are looking for from Axiom, but by your description it does sound like something is not right.

Once you have reset the Denon run the M60s louder than you would normally and try to listen for a difference in mids and highs. I noticed the M60s were much more open and clear when ran loud than when at normal to low levels.

Those are all good suggestions. I have some alternative thoughts for you. Being pedantic in nature, I need to know everything about whatever it is I buy before committing.

I have spent countless hours pouring over posts about peoples perceptions about various speakers as well as reading articles about how we perceive sound.

First, the graphs of the Axiom line of speakers tell a consistent tale. One of a relatively even response across the spectrum and a relatively neutral, uncoloured sound.

On your comment about the midrange. From what I understand, a somewhat overemphasized midrange can result in a richer sound that may seem more pleasing in the short run. I have not seen any frequency graphs of the DefTechs so I don't know if this is the case, but it may well explain the difference in sound you hear.

The same goes for the bottom end. If you have a hump in the bass spectrum somewhere it will sound like more/better bass. A good Aziom example of this is the M3. It has a noticeable hump centered around 100Hz. You will often see people posting that the M3 has more bass. What it really has is louder bass in the 100Hz region.

I have seen the DefTech bass characterized as both over-emphasized and clean, so I don't know which it really is.

I have also seen it written in a number of places that at first a speaker with uncoloured sound will seem a little dryer or flatter. If you take the time to get used to that sound I believe what you get is more subtle detail and a more natural sound. You are trading off punch thump and zing for a more open transparent sound that is much closer to what you would get at a live performance.

What I would do is tweak your system to get the most out of it, and then have your friend bring over his speakers and do some a/b listening comparisons using the second zone on your receiver.

In the end, you have to go with what you like best.

Fred

Good comments, Fred.

Hi M60,

Couple of things. First, check to see how Audessey set your mains. My guess is it set them as large, since they are capable of -3db at 80Hz. If so, with the Subs set to "LFE" (default for the Denon), the subs will not get any bass. Play a song and see if the subs are active. If they are not (or moving VERY little), set the mains to "Small", and the crossover frequency at 80Hz to start with.

Also, I am a little confused when you say they sound "flat", but the highs are there and there is no mid. Typically, flat sounding speakers would have no highs and a lot of mid.

Welcome to the gang!

Edit: I also checked the Best Buy site. With those specs, your friend has the model 7006, which goes for $1300 a pair if not open box (compared to about $1000 a pair for the M60s). But you are right, the M60s should sound better (even though the 7006 really cost 30% more if you compare apples to apples). Seriously, check the main speaker setting

I would check all the connections with the drivers. Make sure they are internally connected, there may be some drivers that are not receiving power.

SRoode

If he has the mains set to large they will get all of the bass Regardless of what he has the sub set to (LFE or LFE+main)

Yes, the M60's would, not the sub.

A simple thing, but be certain the speakers are wired in phase. Try the THX setup tones for phase on any THX DVD (such as the Pixar DVDs).

okie dokie- thought you were talking about the mains not making bass.

I have heard the Definitives. I'm pretty sure that was the model but I'd have to verify.

It's possible you actually prefer their sound, and that's fine.
However, from a sound accuracy point of view, the M60s should be blowing them away. I didn't hear the Def's in the same room so it wasn't a direct comparison but to me, they sounded like when I play lower KB/s MP3s. Tone wise it sounded nice but I had trouble picking out out the separation of the different instruments.


Since I've gotten used to the way my M60s seem to create individual instruments instead of hearing all the sounds muddied together, I find I'm a bit pickier when listening to other peoples gear.

I agree, double check those settings but in the end though, only YOU have to like it or not. We don't matter. I don't like the show "Lost" so I'm a target for ridicule here at work myself.

Are they all rabid fans, wearing their "Get Lost" shirts on casual Friday?

Hi all,

Sorry I have been working late since I last posted and was not able to respond. I would first like to thank everyone for the feedback. I think this is one of the best forums that I have ever been apart of. I have not had time to perform all of the setting that where posted. However, I have tried some in the past when I got my speakers out of the box and was trying to adjust them, as I wasn’t already liking the sound. I never got my M60's sounding good at all. And a lot of the setting have to do with the base. But even if I turn the base off, shouldn't the M60's produce a least some decent base. Not as good as the Definitive cause they have a powered woofer in them, but something decent. And even having just the M60's play stereo alone, they should be just fine, but they are not. I really think I need to do a full blown out diagnostic. Start with just plugging in the M60's alone to another amp. I have a cheap old Onkyo hanging around that I will connect. If they sound better, I will know that its the Denon 3808 problem. I will let you guys know what I come up with. I will also try all the fine tuning and adjustments that this forum has requested. Please let me know if there are any other items I should add to be Diag list. And again thanks for all of the help.

P.S. Someone asked to reset the amp on the Denon 3808. Anyone with a Denon 3808 know what are the steps?

Like Jakewash said, double check to make sure the straps between the binding posts are connected. If you are getting no bass, that is a likely problem.

In fact, start out simple, and check all the connections first. Sometimes it's the small things that hold up the whole process.

I agree with Sean--it could very well be the straps.

Hi M60,

The M60s can produce bass, but they are not great at sub-bass. The response is only down to 37Hz at -3db. Your Velodyne has about 20% more surface area on the sub, and is amplified on top of that (as is the Definitive Tech Speaker). Some people like music with heavy bass, and since you had the Velodyne already, you may have become really accustomed to it.

If you had you mains on large, the sub was not doing anything. Just try setting the mains to small with an 80Hz crossover (it only takes 10 seconds to make the switch). See how you like that sound.

Hey Bud,
I have not read every single word in this thread so maybe someone suggested this already but why dont you grab a few of your favourite CDs/movies and find someone in your neighbourhood who has M60s. Play your CDs/movies on his system and see what they sound like? If the sound is better than your system (keeping in mind that speakers sound different in different setups) there is something wrong with your setup. Else, your ears just like the Def tech sound better (which is quite possible). I have a pair of M60s, a pair of QS8s and a VP150 and I just love the sound. M60s go fairly low but certainly not as low as a dedicated subwoofer. I dont have a sub hooked up at this time and I dont mind it. I like the sound of my speakers for both music and movies.

Guys, spoke with a friend who used to have the exact same model (BP 7006) and he just loved 'em. He now has upgraded to Def tech Mythos but back when he purchased his 7006, he too liked them better than Axiom. So it does sound like unless M60 owners' M60s are properly setup, they would be challenged to sound better than Def tech.

Ummm, no.

The bottom line is, to each his own.
Some people prefer DefTech, some Axioms.

Every speaker may have placement tweaks given the different rooms in which they are set. Ultimately some speakers will sound better in some rooms compared to others.
It is really just a big unsolvable puzzle of multi dimensional physics.

Axiom M60 Owner, after re-reading your original post I am somewhat sure the problem is the Audyysey settings, that and the fact you have only 1 10" sub, how big is your room?

Audyysey tends to set the subs output much lower than most of us would like. Bump up the subwoofer channel probably about 5-10 db and you could run your LFE setting as LFE+Main with the mains set to large to really boost the low end.