Epic 60 and a Yamaha

Posted by: cdy2179

Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 09:15 AM

I'm thinking avout diving into an Epic 60 package minus the sub, my question is i've heard they can be bright with some receivers, will a Yamaha 7 x 100 (probably 70 x7 watts in real life)be a good match (sound wise)?? Will it have enough power to drive this system well in a 14'x18'x9' room??, or will i need external amps to make it shine? This system is 95% home theater and xbox 360.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 09:18 AM

I really shouldn't hit send before I check my spelling!!!
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 10:17 AM

Axioms are not bright no matter what some AVSforum members will tell you.. Also, solid state receivers are designed to have a flat frequency response from 20hz - 20khz, so they won't make speakers sound bright. Now, if you have some special DSP or tone controls turned on in the receiver to alter the original sound, that could change the outcome.

That Yamaha will do just fine, Axiom speakers are very efficient and require very little wattage to drive to loud levels. In most situations your only going to be using 1-2 watts anyway.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 01:07 PM

Randy pretty much covered it. The source material maybe poorly recorded and thus sound bright/hollow/edgy, when you get a good recording playing through them they shine no matter what avr you have hooked up to them. The best part about Axioms is that you don't have to crank them up to hear the detail they offer. It seems many people prefer a more laid back sound with the highs, and to my ears vocals, a little more withdrawn from the music, Axioms play all the frequencies equally so you hear them more.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 01:41 PM

As Sirquack pointed out, I am a member of AVS. That's how i founds this website. And that's why i bought a Yamaha, Not the best of course, but it has been a solid receiver so far pushing my low budget paradigm Focus mains and 270 center. I've been curious about the M80's vs the 60, the 80 seem to be preferred here, does anyone know if Yamahas are ok with the 4 ohm load??

I really want a front stage that's in your face but clear and audible, i hate asking "what did he say" during a movie, I'm currently installing accoustic panels which should help alot. I'm looking for that movie theater sound, strong, audible, and in your face. my paradigms just aren't doing it.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 01:48 PM

In reality, any decent receiver should be able to drive a 4 ohm speaker, the receiver does not know what type of speaker it is hooked up to...the main issue is to what levels you drive the receiver before it protects itself because of the current draw.

Historically, Axiom has not recommended Yamaha in the past because of testing and shut down issues in lab tests. I think the newer models might have better luck.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 02:06 PM

Welcome aboard Cdy.

Which Yammie do you have? The 1800 and up seem to work well with 4 ohm loads from what I have seen.

The Axioms can do that, in your face feel, and the M60's are a great speaker, most of us have just come to the conclusion we get upgradeitis way to easily so we went for the M80s as the first or second Axiom purchase. I had the M60s for audition but I found them to lack the forwardness of my M22s(which appear to be more forward than the present M22v2) the M80s were a closer match so I ended up with them. You could always do as I did and try the M60s and if they are not what you are looking for return them and try the M80s, this 'upgrade' is free shipping as well, you only pay the price difference between the M60 and M80.

You may also want to check the Hearing things section to see if there is anybody nearby that could give you an audition.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 02:57 PM

The receiver is a HTR-5860, it's about 3 years old, it's a pretty heavy reciever, with a beefy amp for a low budget Home Theater. I think i remebemer the specs sheet having a lower ohm rating than eight on the front channel, but i'd trust real world result more than a spec sheet.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 04:07 PM

It was likely 6 Ohm, as most companies rate down to 6 ohms. I know it would work with the M80s whether or not it would hit the SPL you want is another story.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/05/09 10:35 PM

CDY, welcome. You appear to have picked up a few audio mythologies elsewhere on the internet. The Axioms aren't "bright"; it's the recording being accurately reproduced which may be. Neither the Yamaha nor any other competently designed receiver will add a sonic character of its own when operated within its designed power limits, so there's no need to be looking for a "match". The Yamaha will in fact provide at least the rated 100 watts in "real life", otherwise it would be in violation of the FTC amplifier power regulations. This should be ample in most cases in your size room, depending on the average sound level that you employ and the dynamic range of the program material. Unused maximum amplifier capacity can't make a speaker "shine".
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 09:07 AM

There is no way my Yamaha can dish out 100 watts per channel to all 7 channels as it claims, It only draws a max of ~570 watts from the wall, it's probably closer to 70 watts with all channels driven. Many manufacturers are known to spec their equipment out driving only the mains but don't list it that way. Sony is known to be really bad about this (Not Sony ES). Harmon Kardon is one company this is very good about giving specs with all channels driven, Their ratings look lower than other brands but they are actually much more acurate.

At this point i'm no longer worried about the sound, i'm sure they'll sound great, but as jakewash points out i'm not sure about the spl. I don't like it ear splitting 100db + or anything, but i don't want it to shut down when all of the other speakers are asked to kick in, (which did happen once on the matrix.... it was a lot louder than normal). I sent an email to Yamaha tech support, they'll probably won't recommend it. I was hoping someone on here may have a similar setup.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 09:21 AM

http://www.productwiki.com/harmon-kardon-avr-254/ This receiver has about the same power consuption as mine, it's listed specs probably are close to what mine can really deliver.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 10:30 AM

No speaker manufacturer, including Denon will recommend using a 4 ohm speaker for liability reasons.

I think that the ratings on receivers are loosely based on 2 channels driven. The problem with Yamaha is that, for the lower end stuff, they are hit and miss. This was covered in a recent post here when Alan loft pointed out that one of the 66x receivers delivered considerably less than the implied 100w. In contrast, when Audioholics bench tested (and their bench tests are comprehensive) the 559 it delivered more than the rated 100wpc 2 channels driven on a contiuous basis.

The M60 will go plenty loud. They may not fill up a factory with sound like the 80s, but they will go plenty loud in most average and larger rooms. When I a/b compared the 60 and 80 in a 20x12x8 room neither was playing at near even half power to deliver 85db at a listening position 10-12' from the speakers.

There are room calculators out there that will tell you how much power you will use to reach a given volume at a given distance. In my room, almost the same size as listed above, 65w gives me 12-15db of headroom at average lisening levels of 85db. What that means is that the speaker draw will be 65w ONLY for the 95-100db peaks, and at 85db I am using considerably less.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 10:35 AM

I agree Fred, my room is 30 x 31 x 9 and I had the 60's for 2-3 years before upgrading to the 80's. The 60's filled the cavern nicely with clean, loud music with plenty of room to spare. The only reason I got the 80's is pressure from Wid. \:\)
Posted by: Murph

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 10:38 AM

While your power computations might be correct and the manufacturer's insinuations might be in question, I am extremely doubtful that any sound track ever evenly demands 100 watts sent to all speakers equally. (unless of course you are already pushing well over a hundred, average, with your mains.)

I expect the workout for the surrounds is extremely light compared to the mains. The sub has it's own amp so is not a concern. I'm thinking that most times it's only the mains and sometimes the center that get pushed hard for anything more than a quick blip.

I guess one exception is if you are using a stereo or mono to all speakers mode on your amp. Most people don't have a need for this, but it's possible.

Our amp experts should verify or debunk my guesswork. I'm OK either way as I'll learn from it.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 10:42 AM

Thanks Fred. I'm thinking the M60 may be a better choice for me , i just don't want to loose a whole bunch of sound envolopment (I guess that's the word I'm looking for) during movies, my room isn't that big (18'x14') i only sit 13' from my mains, How was the sound comparison between the 60 and 80's when you compared them at 85db? Are they comparable in sound, or is the 80 superbly better?
Posted by: fredk

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 10:44 AM

I think you are right. I think the power calculators are based on 2 channel, so your power usage would be sligntly higher if listening 5.1.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 10:47 AM

Axiom states that the 60s sound very similar to the 80s but the 80s have just a little bit more bass extension and can go a bit louder. Many owners will tell you that that the 80s begin to have more clarity at lower volumes than the 60s. Many owners on this board will tell you that they are superbly better.

I can only repeat those commonly typed statements as I have 2 sets of 60s and have not heard 80s. As I always say, I can't imagine how my 60s could ever sound better than they do and I certainly have no need for louder as they play cleanly at levels only a deaf man could enjoy, but apparently, the 80s do present improvements according to our resident experts. Someday, I hope to find out for myself.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 10:52 AM

Yall are right, The surrounds don't get near the action the front stage does. I've never had a problem with over current other than once it shut down during a gun fight scene on the Matrix, everything was working hard during that scene and it was much louder than i normally have it, other than that i keep it pretty tame, the wife nor i like it really loud, however i do have to turn it up to hear what's being said at times, I blame that on room accoustics (hand clap test is painfull) and my 270 paradigm center. I'm currently building absorbers for my reflection points (ceiling included), and hopefully a big axiom 150 center, that should solve that problem.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 10:56 AM

Having done an a/b comparison of the 60s and 80s, I can tell you that you will not loose a whole bunch of sound. In an a/b comparison the M80s give more detail. I hate to use audiophile terms, but the upper end really is more transparent and gives slightly more detail on the M80 and there is noticably more bass. The upper end is a subtle effect though and a sub makes up for the bass.

IMO, for $300 it is a worthwhile upgrade. If you have to add another $700+ for a new receiver, I would stick with the 60s.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 11:18 AM

I may just get the 80's and if i have any problems i may just get a 3 channel amp to run the center and mains. I may be incorrect but i beleive if i get only a two channel amp for the mains it could slighlty change the timbre match between the mains and center. That's why i've been thinking 3 channel, or should i let my reciever run my center and just get an amp for the mains????
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 11:23 AM

There shouldn't be any difference in timbre... I'd get a two-channel. That'll free up the receiver's reserves quite a bit...
Posted by: Murph

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 11:26 AM

I agree with Mark.
All evidence seems to point out that unless you are into tube amps, a solid state amp, run within it's limits, does not color the sound.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 11:32 AM

so any special setting i use on the reciever "movie mode etc" will be passed on to the pre outs, it still runs through the equilizer circuitry it just bypasses the reciever's amp, correct???? I should have never started upgrading.....it's hard to stop!
Posted by: Wid

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 11:32 AM

 Originally Posted By: Murph
I agree with Mark.
All evidence seems to point out that unless you are into tube amps, a solid state amp, run within it's limits, does not color the sound.


Agreed.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 12:35 PM

In that room size you most likely will not be listening at levels that will require gobs of power and it won't take gobs of power to blow you out of the room. \:\) Don't rule the 60's out either, they used to fill my 900sq ft room just fine with the Denon alone and no extra amps.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 02:22 PM

Like I said, go for the 60s first, then if you are not happy get the 80s. The differences are there but only really noticeable when compared together. If you do end up with 80s try them as is and if you do experience shutdown with them then go for a seperate amp.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 04:01 PM

Yeah i think going with the 60 is the safer bet, I read a review on audioholics.com and the m80's were so powerful the 150 center had trouble keeping up, so he threw two 150 centers in the system, that would be awesome! My room isn't Huge so i'm sure the 60's along with the 150 will blow my paradigm system away, at least i hope they will. i haven't found any good reviews (professional) on the 60's like i have on the 80's.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 04:15 PM

The 60's can hold their own to their big brother. ;\) Not sure I understand the part about keeping up with the 150. The center channel is for movie dialog (voices). Unless the guy was playing in 5-7 stereo mode, the center channel is not designed to play like a full range loudspeaker, 60's or 80's, or 50's for that matter.

The 60's will rock your world.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 04:16 PM

Another option is to do an audition if someone lives near you, just check the audition thread.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 04:51 PM

The VP150 can keep upto the M80s to an extent, but for sheer volume it can't compete and this is what I believe that reviewer was talking about, the center became lost, to him, during loud passages. I think it was more a matter of it blended in too well and he lost where it was, a sign of a good center, IMO.

The 60s are a very good speaker and I actually prefer their look to the M80s full face grille, even without the grille, I still like the look of that extra bit of wood showing below the drivers.
Posted by: doormat

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/06/09 07:47 PM

 Originally Posted By: cdy2179
Yeah i think going with the 60 is the safer bet, I read a review on audioholics.com and the m80's were so powerful the 150 center had trouble keeping up, so he threw two 150 centers in the system, that would be awesome!



Well, I can tell you that an M60 center keeps up very nicely.
Posted by: HAY

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/07/09 01:07 AM

 Originally Posted By: cdy2179
so any special setting i use on the reciever "movie mode etc" will be passed on to the pre outs, it still runs through the equilizer circuitry it just bypasses the reciever's amp, correct???? I should have never started upgrading.....it's hard to stop!


Surprised no one commented on this yet, unless I read it wrong.

When are you using these special settings? Or do you mean Dolby Digital 5.1, Dolby True HD and so on?

If you're referring to DSP modes (movie, game, concert, etc) these are the types of things that will change the characteristics of the speakers sound. This is where you could get that bright sounding combination and such as the DSP changes the equalization or adds echo or other effects. Normally you would want to have no effects or changes so the speakers sound the way they were intended.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/07/09 02:32 AM

here ya go. Nice review.
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/08/09 09:07 AM

When watching movies I set my receiver to straight, on Xbox i set it to game, i was curious if when i do change it, will it output the same (altered) sound to the pre outs. I saw the review at goodsound.com, it was good, but the audioholics review seemed to blow the reviewer away using the 80's he did one on the 60's too, he liked them alot, but he seemed to be much more impressed with the 80's. I'm sure i'll love the 60's.

I installed 6 of my 10 acoustic panels last night, OMG they are awesome, clap test is great now, sound is so much better and cleaner, even my wife was amazed, It's like i have a new system, the back panel really helped, tonight i'll install the last four on the ceiling.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/08/09 11:03 AM

WOW, you managed to get your wife to agree to some panels, hang to her. As we have all said the 60's are a very good speaker, I am quite certain you will love them. Once you have them, you are obligated to post some pics and of the room as well, would like to see what you have done. \:\)
Posted by: cdy2179

Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha - 01/08/09 02:39 PM

Yeah, she not only agreed she's actually at home right now dying the brown covering black to wrap them (I hung them up last night with the insulation still showing, It's a dedicated HT room so along with the fake columns/ bass traps i'm putting in the corners it makes it feel more like a theater, and looks great so she's way into it. Now if i were trying to put these in the living room, aaaaa yeaahhhh right! No chance!

I got the idea from here http://www.4seating.com/images/contemp_01.jpg
although my absorbers are a little thicker and are set off the wall 1 1/2". Found the raw panels pretty cheap at ATSacoustic.com.