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Posted By: a-rone Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/23/09 11:56 PM
Hello all,
I am an av123 forum regular and am looking to upgrade speakers soon and am leaning toward av123's Rocket speakers. I have never listened to the Rocket speaker line. I currently own the X series (x-cs, x-mtm's and x-ls) and an MFW-15 subwoofer for a full 5.1 setup. I am intrigued by axiom with the price that includes shipping.

I would go with the following if I went the axiom route:
M80's
V150
QS8's

for around $2200

If I went with av123's Rockets I would go with:
RS850's
RS450's
RSC200

With the a sale price of $1999 + shipping it would come in around $2300 (just a guess)

The questions I have are as follows:

Does anyone on this forum have experience with both these setups?

What in your opinion are the highlights of axiom's sound vs. that of the Rocket speakers?

Is the vinyl cheap looking in comparison to the wood veneer of the Rockets?

Thanks
Aaron
Posted By: nickbuol Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:00 AM
I am sure someone will chime in about the audio quality, as for the vinyl, if someone didn't tell you it was vinyl, and as long as you weren't a woodworking craftsman, you'd probably never know it wasn't a real wood veneer. I know that others have said that not just here, but on other 3rd party web sites where they reviewed Axiom speakers. The quality is amazing.


Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:07 AM
I've heard the RS850s (I think? Perhaps it was the 1000s) as well as the Bigfoot center and some Rocket surrounds, and I own M80s, VP100 and QS4s (yes, it's strange...). Overall, I prefer the sound of the Axioms, particularly when you involve the Bigfoot. It's heresy, but I was really not impressed with that unit. Now, the VP100 certainly isn't the top line center, but it also isn't audibly obtrusive like I found the Bigfoot to be (even after calibration). Hopefully I'm not insulting the very nice person who owns this setup...

The M80s are perhaps some of the best speakers I've heard. The RS series was very nice, but doesn't stand out in my mind like M80s or the Magnepans and Revels I've heard. Given that Paradigm Studio 100s don't stand out in my mind either may point out that my judgement may be somewhat suspect. ;\)

The Rocket finish is certainly lovely and better looking than the stock Axiom finish. However, if you can get ahold of Axiom's high gloss vinyl finish, that's probably pretty close in appearance to the Rockets. Of course, real wood is always better.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:13 AM
Nick - Thanks for the info.

Calvin - What didn't you like about the Bigfoot?
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:15 AM
\:D \:D
Posted By: turbo16v Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:15 AM
when i was in the market for speakers the two sets you are looking at were exactly what i was looking at. I ended up going for the axiom's due to cheaper price and WAY more reviews. However i must say the real wood veneer on the rockets is Absolutely beautiful and obviously is a step above axiom's vinyl. I ended up getting axiom high gloss cherry on one of their sales and am very happy with it though. I still wonder how the 850's sound....but its hard to imagine anything sounding better than the 80's for the price...or maybe double...
What i am interested in is the new LS speaker line the LS6 and LS9 look great!! and a well executed line array speaker is supposed to be amazing....better be for the price \:o
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:19 AM
No, I'm not going to change my sig... Calvin's the one who said the qu--oh forget it.


aaaaanyway... the Bigfoot just sounded kinda artificial. Hard to describe it. Perhaps the midbass was overemphasized. I'm not really sure.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:24 AM
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
No, I'm not going to change my sig... Calvin's the one who said the qu--oh forget it.


That's to funny. Thanks for the info anyway.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:24 AM
Look at these M80's and the VP150 in high gloss cherry. They are beautiful :). Some pics without grills and some with a custom grill. Grills made by turbo16v. Stunning!!

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthre...&gonew=1#UNREAD

\:\) \:\) \:\)
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 01:14 AM
The Rocket 850's was one of the first towers I was looking into once I decided I wanted towers. I measured out the footprint and the height. Those are huge speakers. And heavy. I thought the shipping was high. The return shipping was high if I was to return them. The problems they were having with their subs concerned me but the defending attitude on the forum itself turned me off. There was almost a worshipping attitude there. No matter how bad things seemed to be people were defending like crazy almost blindly.

Of course this is just my opinion but something seemed weird. Someone mentioned Axiom on another forum I was on and I asked a million questions. (still have a couple more) Look for the thread titled "Why Axiom" for some thoughts.

btw if anyone thinks I should delete this post let me know.
Posted By: HomeDad Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 01:24 AM
We don't delete posts here, particularly someones honest opinion. Just stay away from religion and politics. \:\)
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 01:53 AM
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
No, I'm not going to change my sig... Calvin's the one who said the qu--oh forget it.

A name change perhaps? ;\)
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 03:06 AM
 Originally Posted By: HomeDad
We don't delete posts here, particularly someones honest opinion. Just stay away from religion and politics. \:\)


I love politics and religion!
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:27 AM
Heretic!
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:33 AM
bob/335 - I am a daily forum member at av123's forum and I in no way think your post should be deleted. Thanks for your thoughts.
Posted By: grunt Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:47 AM
 Originally Posted By: a-rone
bob/335 - I am a daily forum member at av123's forum and I in no way think your post should be deleted. Thanks for your thoughts.


a-rone I lurk around the av123 forum from time to time but not enough to get a feel for the regulars. When they had the temporary shutdown I noticed a few of people claming to be longtime members posting in other forums about how they weren’t going back when it came back up. I was just wondering how the forum has bounced back as it looks like they’ve been getting other things under control.

Cheers,
Dean
Posted By: jakewash Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 10:26 AM
It appears av123 forum is alive and well, not sure on how many regulars stopped going to it. I was amazed to read that MLS wanted to shut down the forum because he wasn't going to have time to over see it as he wanted to spend more time on more important matters, ie. production isssues to get ironed out, luckily he was talked out of it by Craig and a couple others.

a-rone, the other thing to think about with av123 is the wait time for the system, Mark appears to have his hands full with production issues, while Axiom has them ready and waiting for you, or you can wait for some Factory Outlet speakers 2-4 weeks depending on the stock finish, saving 10% plus another 5% for a HT discount of 5 or more items. Or you could go a little higher on the budget for a real wood veneer from Axiom.

Just wondering how you came up with the price for the Rockets, are you thinking about the black friday/christmas sale prices? I am not seeing any sale prices on their web site right now so the total for the Rocket setup is $3097 plus shipping.

The Axiom system is $2164.10 for stock purchase or $1948.45 from the FO, shipping included.
Posted By: Worfzara Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:23 PM
Hi a-rone

I guess when you come to this forum your going to get biased answers. But you probably knew that already.

I have never heard any Rockets before, and I am sure they sound great. I don't think internet speaker companies can stay in business if they don't have outstanding products.

A couple of things. The M80's are 4 ohm where the 850's are 8 ohm. Depending on what you are going to use to drive them that may be a consideration. I personally like the 4 ohm as it sig. increased the wattage of the amplifer.

Axiom offers a 5 year waranty on there speakers, where the Rockets are only 3 years. This shows more of a comitment to Axiom's customers and confidence in their product.

I own the Boston Cherry vinyl, I have had them for almost 5 years and they still look great. I have a dedicated HT room so most of the time I spend in there is in the dark so, I am not as concered about finish as someone who will be putting their speakers in their living room. I have almost the opposite view on the finish of the Rockets, although the are very very nice, for me I don't want to pay extra for real wood. Why don't the offer vinyl at a lower price?

Just my thoughts

paul
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:27 PM
Since Craig's name was brought up by a regular here, I would like to mention that I had contacted Craig early January. I had read a review that he wrote regarding the Axiom M80 vs Energy Veritas where he thought the M80 won out. I liked reading other posts that I had read by him (all of this at another forum)He seemed honest and thorough. I tried tracking him down through that forum and someone told me that he wasn't there much and gave me a tip where to find him.

At that time I was very interested in the Energy RC70 and looking for more info concerning them. Since he compared their higher end speaker to the M80 I became very curious about the M80 especially comparing the prices.

My question to him was since some time had passed since the date of that review, did he still feel the same way about the M80's. Here is his response:

Bob - Three years certainly went be in a hurry. The Axioms did well against the Energies in this test, but were later easily bested by the Rocket 850's ... to the point that the Axioms were sold. The 850's are a speaker one can listen to for hours, with not a bit of fatigue. I would also look at the X-Statiks. For the $$$, and especially with a good subwoofer, they are remarkable. One Caveat, should you still want to go with Axioms - get the wood finish. The vinyl is pretty fragile and prone to rolling at the seams. Hope this helps !! Craig
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 12:34 PM
There were 2 more correspondances if you would care to know regarding the M80 vs the Rockets.
Posted By: myrison Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 01:57 PM
Yes, why not? Paste 'em in! \:\)

To the original poster, if you're interested in more pics of the HG Cherry, check out those linked to in my signature. I've yet to have anyone walk into my home theater without commenting on what amazing looking speakers they are. (only topped by their reaction when they hear them, which then, finally, is only topped by their amazement when I tell them how much the system costs) ;\)

Jason
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 03:17 PM
Just this very minute accidently ran across this thread in another forum. I was NOT looking for this!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1112264
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 03:20 PM
Yep, this guy is wanting to spread/trash AV123 so others will spread it, that is obvious, some have tried to do that with Axiom. Your always going to have a few bad eggs and can't make everyone happy. AV123 makes great speakers, as does Axiom.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 03:33 PM
That guy seems to have had issues with that compnay. Seems real. However that is something you should not bring onto other public forums.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 03:37 PM
Oh, it is very real, I followed some of it on AV123, I totally agree that he should not handle it in front of the internet community. There is always two sides to every issue. \:\)
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:00 PM
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Oh, it is very real, I followed some of it on AV123, I totally agree that he should not handle it in front of the internet community. There is always two sides to every issue. \:\)


Sorry to disagree. This guy seems to have spent a lot of money with AV123. He has had some customer service problems. I spent a bit of time on that forum and the runaround stories from the owner were only outdone by the cheering section there. As a service oriented business person myself, there was no way for me to accept the rhetoric being spewed daily over there.

Of course there are 3 sides to every story but this is one side that needs to be told.
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:01 PM
One must not forget Craig and Mark are in buisness together . Remember this while asking for his opinion on other speaker brands.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:07 PM
There's always going to be issues, esp with internet based co's, it's how the co deals with the problem and corrects it through customer relations is the key issue. Hopefully this guy, who sounds genuine, can work things out with Av123. It should be done privately instead of on a public forum, but we all know there are thousands of consumers out there who have resorted to the internet crowd as a last means, (not saying that's the case here), from car problems to warranty issues on their toasters....
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:10 PM
That's good to know, Rick. ;\)
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:13 PM
 Originally Posted By: wid
One must not forget Craig and Mark are in buisness together . Remember this while asking for his opinion on other speaker brands.



And with that in mind, here are some follow-up emails that some here might find interesting:


Hey Craig,
Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to get back to me. Actually I was concerned about the vinyl finish on the Axioms. The Rockets were an earlier contender. I have been concerned with the subs being shipped with the current special. Also the 850's look rather large in the dimensions compared to the M80 and the RC-70. I had shown my wife the Orbs about 2 or so weeks ago and up until last night I think she thought I was still going small. A lot has happened in 2-3 weeks. I have a J&R Music close to work and listemed to some JBL and Polk Towers. Problem is they had the others in a different room (very small) with different equipment. Certainly less than an ideal situation. I'm having a hard time finding any high end audio around here. We have several 5th Ave, Electronics in different directions I will try to hit this weekend. Anyway, I'll look into the Rockets again. "Easily bested by the Rockets" eh? I know you have a "friendly competition" with AV123. You're not biased here, are you? The people who don't like he Axioms think they are too bright and will eventually cause fatigue. HMMmm? Thanks! BoB


Bob ... No bias, I make nothing on Rockets, plus I am also not much for being biased. I own a Ford dealership but drive a Corvette for a sports car. Whatever is the best, is just that, the best. Danny Richie, who is doing AV123's design work, is a genius. If you want a real GEM, check out the Rocket 450's ... smaller than the 850's, and truly close to the Axioms for output, with a slightly less forward sound. I still like the Axioms, too - it's just they are essentially the same thing they were 6 years ago. If you look at the reactions of guys getting 450's, it has been REALLY positive. Craig
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:16 PM
 Originally Posted By: Adrian
There's always going to be issues, esp with internet based co's, it's how the co deals with the problem and corrects it through customer relations is the key issue. Hopefully this guy, who sounds genuine, can work things out with Av123. It should be done privately instead of on a public forum, but we all know there are thousands of consumers out there who have resorted to the internet crowd as a last means, (not saying that's the case here), from car problems to warranty issues on their toasters....


So Adrian,

You being in the market for speakers would rather not know of the problems being aired concerning AV123?
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:19 PM
Last email:


btw I will be using a Denon 2309 to drive this pair and building on it later for surround sound. I would love a big sound coming from my fronts and being able to enjoy music again. Wish I had a larger room. BoB


That tells me Roocket 450's even more.


So Mark thinks I should be getting the Rocket 450's over the M80's. Any remarks?
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:29 PM
Not at all Bob, what I'm really saying is that I hope all avenues were tried to resolve this problem first in a private way before going to the forums. Hopefully he did that, but as consumers, yes, this is important for the rest of us, to help us make informed decisions. As I said, problems sometimes arise, and it is how the company deals with these problems tells us alot about their customer relations. Sounds like AV123 dropped the ball here though. To answer your question directly, yes, I would prefer to know about any problems with a company/or their products.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:32 PM
When you have some time browse the AV123 forum. Problems are almost brushed under the carpet. Excuse making is to the point of ridiculous.
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:34 PM
I think it would be important to know if Craig was comparing the Rockets to the newer M80s (as in v2s or just prior to the v2 designation) or to older ones. There were some substantial changes with the crossover made relatively recently which apparently smoothed the M80's response greatly.

From the sound of it, Craig's not necessarily a fan of a flat speaker response. That's fine, maybe you're not either. But that's what Axiom gives you--an honest presentation. Rockets have a reputation (and I'm merely referring to the reputation here) of being "warm"--eg rolled off on the top end.

A further note: Axiom, will you just send Bob his speakers already? ;\)
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:40 PM
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile


A further note: Axiom, will you just send Bob his speakers already? ;\)


LOL!!....err, tell them to get mine ready too!
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:41 PM

I have bought from AV123 in the past and it was a good experience. I was looking for a small sub for a bedroom system for my sons room. It was between the Hsu STF 1 and the xSub. I was familiar with the Hsu subs already and wanted to try something different. I went with the xSub and it has been a great little sub.

I will say this; Av123 was every bit as professional as was Axiom.
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:45 PM
Yeah, historically, I've heard nothing bad (and many things good) about AV123's service.
Posted By: Worfzara Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:52 PM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335

The 850's are a speaker one can listen to for hours, with not a bit of fatigue. I would also look at the X-Statiks. For the $$$, and especially with a good subwoofer, they are remarkable. One Caveat, should you still want to go with Axioms - get the wood finish. The vinyl is pretty fragile and prone to rolling at the seams. Hope this helps !! Craig


I suppose each person has their own opinion, and I have never heard the 850's myself. Not supprised the more expensive speaker sounds better to some people. But, I have listened to my M80s for hours too, and never felt listening fatigue. And I not only own 5 speakers in the Epic 80/500 for almost 5 years, but also own a pair of AX'2 from 1986, and I have never noticed the vinyl to be fragile and prone to rolling at the seems.

Has anyone else ever heard of this problem with the vinyl finish from Axiom?

paul
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:54 PM
Oh, I didn't notice that bit. I think that's completely false--it's very durable. My M50s still look pretty pristine, and I've had them for over 5 years. I think the seams are a bit more noticeable on the high gloss finish speakers--but it's not like the vinyl's coming off!
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 04:59 PM
RE: Craig and the Rocket vs Axiom thing.

1. The fact that the M80 has not changed significantly in the last 6 years is meaningless drivel. The better a product is, the more difficult it is to improve on.

2. He is affiliated with AV123. He is biased. I have yet to see a successful business owner that does not spin in his favour. It is par of building a successful business.

3. 'Easily bested'. Thats just spin. Both sets of speakers are very good and their individual characteristics will make them sound slightly different. The fact that he mentions fatigue without specifically calling the M80s fatiguing is pure BS/spin, particularly since he did not find them so in his initial reviews.

4. Quantify wherever possible. I have seen only two sets of independant measurements for AV123 products. The rocket 750 (older product) the xstatics. The 750 had a huge midrange hump which the reviewer noted. The extatics also have a midrange hump and considerably more distortion than the M80s. Both of these things will colour the sound.

The midrange hump will give the Rockets a warmer sound, which matches with comments from Rocket owners. It does not give them a bad sound, just warm.

5. Vinyl issues. More FUD!! In all my reading here, and I read a LOT, I have run into exactly one post from somebody having an issue with vinyl pealing. One!! POed customers are much more likely to post and there is only one.

The disgruntled AV123 customer thread shows that this company has some business issues that are probably growth, China manufacturing and recession/cash flow related. Without access to the inside, it is hard to say how serious any one of those issues might be.

The character of the 123 site is an interesting thing. MLS has an evangelical/stump speach style of doing business that cultivates a certain style of following. I personally have an 'alergic reaction' to that style of doing things. He also has the balls to be very open with issues on hist site, something I really admire. This invites a similar openess from posters.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:00 PM
I would agree Rick, I don't know to many companies where the owner actually is willing to fly around the country to people's houses and help setup their systems. Sounds like pretty good Customer Service oriented practices to me.

Bob, for your information, AV123 has made things right with that person. Do you think Axiom has never had such issues, or any other manufacturer for that matter? Sure we are going to defend the company we believe in, why would AV123 be any different. You have hot been around long enough to remember the countless people that have come to our website and other forums (made 1 post and then dissapear) to trash Axiom. 9 times out of 10 it is just a simple misunderstanding, and things should have been handled differently than spewing crap on the forums.
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:03 PM
On HG cherry vinyl. Damn it looks good in person!! I was able to see both the vinyl and the real thing for both the cherry and the burled walnut and at any distance (2 feet or more) they are indistinguishable.

I think the only way to make wood look better would be a hand rubbed oil finish. something that really brings out the grain and gives it some depth.
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:15 PM
Funny, from looking at my Audiobytes and Peter's (in photos), both of which are burled walnut, I'd say that the wood finish and the HG vinyl finish are pretty different in appearance. I have the HG vinyl, and Peter has the veneer. Mine are lovely and certainly look like real wood, but they don't look the same as Peter's.
Posted By: CV Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:20 PM
 Originally Posted By: fredk
4. Quantify wherever possible. I have seen only two sets of independant measurements for AV123 products. The rocket 750 (older product) the xstatics. The 750 had a huge midrange hump which the reviewer noted. The extatics also have a midrange hump and considerably more distortion than the M80s. Both of these things will colour the sound.


So Danny Richie is a genius at humping?
Posted By: michael_d Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:22 PM
Listen to both, buy the set you prefer. These comparitive debates are pointless. It's impossible to tell anyone what kind of cool-aid they prefer.

If you want to know speciific information regarding Axiom products, ask away. You'll get specific responces.
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:22 PM
And Mike cuts to the chase.
Posted By: Worfzara Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 05:34 PM
Remember here, vinyl is a man made material, where real wood, veneer, is a natural material. Because the man made material is manufactured under controled conditions, you know what you are going to get everytime. Real wood adds a small element of suprise. There are a whole host of varibles with veneer that you don't have with vinyl. Some people like some of the inconsistancies of the veneer, gives more of a natural look, and others, like myself, would rather have the perfect every time looking vinyl.

I think it's awsome Axiom lets you make the choice (if you can afford it).

paul
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 08:35 PM
The primary difference btw real wood (especially with a high gloss finish) and veneer (regardless of finish) is that the wood gives you more "depth" -- meaning that the light reflects and refracts from more than just the surface. With veneer, even though it looks really nice, you get a flat look.
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 08:41 PM
Veneer is real wood, dude. You mean vinyl.
Posted By: CV Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 08:52 PM
I thought veneers could be real wood or vinyl or who knows what else.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 08:52 PM
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I would agree Rick, I don't know to many companies where the owner actually is willing to fly around the country to people's houses and help setup their systems. Sounds like pretty good Customer Service oriented practices to me.

Bob, for your information, AV123 has made things right with that person. Do you think Axiom has never had such issues, or any other manufacturer for that matter? Sure we are going to defend the company we believe in, why would AV123 be any different. You have hot been around long enough to remember the countless people that have come to our website and other forums (made 1 post and then dissapear) to trash Axiom. 9 times out of 10 it is just a simple misunderstanding, and things should have been handled differently than spewing crap on the forums.


The post I linked was dated yesterday. I was NOT looking for anything remotely related to AV123. I have been searching sub related things because I am "agonizing" over the sub choice. The link I posted was from a Subeoofer thread in AV Science Forum. I posted here because the OP was related to AV123 and not for me to cause any trouble. If anyone carefully read the original post in the thread I linked it would be extremely hard to come to the conclusion that this person did not make attempts to rectify the situation before making his post on that forum.

Of course I would expect Axiom to have had issues but I challenge you to spend a day reading through several areas of the AV123 Forum and then come here and tell me that things are being handled over there.

I have no idea how I ended up on this side of the fence in this discussion other than to say that I wiped AV123 from my mind due to THEIR forum and not because of disgruntled customers stating their case on other forums. On the other side of that coin is the Axiom forum. Need I say more?
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 08:53 PM
Axiom manufacturers all their product in house in Canada (North America) while AV123 manufacturers overseas. Another thing to consider that might be important to some people when deciding on a product.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 08:54 PM
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
I think another thing to look is where the products are manufactured. Axiom manufacturers all their product in house in Canada (North America) while AV123 manufacturers overseas. Another thing to consider when deciding to buy a product.


It seems that could be a lot of their initial problem. The rest of the problem is not immediately addressing it.
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:45 PM
 Quote:
Axiom manufacturers all their product in house in Canada

Well, except for the amps.
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:46 PM
 Originally Posted By: CV
I thought veneers could be real wood or vinyl or who knows what else.

Correct. You win a cookie. Now go make it and tell us how it tastes.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:49 PM
Where are their amps made?
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:49 PM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
I think another thing to look is where the products are manufactured. Axiom manufacturers all their product in house in Canada (North America) while AV123 manufacturers overseas. Another thing to consider when deciding to buy a product.


It seems that could be a lot of their initial problem. The rest of the problem is not immediately addressing it.


Everything starts at the top. Their owner seems to like to publicize every facet of his company (good and bad) and overhype products (even products in development) on public message boards. Eventually that will come back to bite you.

The one thing I like about Axiom is that they underhype and overdeliver on their promises to their customers. Axiom's business model is far superior in my opinion.
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:49 PM
 Quote:
Funny, from looking at my Audiobytes and Peter's (in photos), both of which are burled walnut, I'd say that the wood finish and the HG vinyl finish are pretty different in appearance

My comparison was limited to 3 or 4 sets of speakers in the factory. From 3', you cannot say which is real wood and which is not.

I find that the high gloss finish seems to flatten the wood so that it looses the debth. That is why I way an oil finish would make a difference.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:53 PM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
The rest of the problem is not immediately addressing it.


How they correct the problem is the key.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:57 PM
I think woodworkers call that 'patina'...."debth" ;\)
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:58 PM
 Quote:
Well, except for the amps.


The Audiobyte amps are assembled in Dwight. I'm not sure about the A1400-8, though.
Posted By: Worfzara Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 09:58 PM
I was sure axiom drivers were made in China, the cabnets, speaker assembly and all R&D is done in Ontario, Canada.

pn
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 10:17 PM
This is from an email Alan sent me not too long ago, when I asked him where the drivers were made:

...woofers, midranges, and tweeters are built in an Axiom owned facility in Shanghai, the exception being the aluminum cone woofers used in the EP500/600/800 subs...these are built mainly in Axiom's Dwight, Ontario plant....Design, engineering and testing of all drivers is done in the Ontario plant...the woofers and midrange are all aluminum-core units, the tweeters are titanium-aluminum composite dome...

I guess the key words here are, Axiom owned. They don't appear to sub out the work, giving them greater control over quality and product. \:\)
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 10:40 PM
Gee and I thought they were made in Canada. Must have missed that somewhere.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 11:10 PM
Depends really what one means when they say "made in ....". The speakers themselves are built and assembled in Dwight, but the drivers (most) are made offshore, in an Axiom owned and operated plant. I don't think you'll find too many electronics or any other product (with many components) that is completely made in only one country. Look at a 'domestic' car for eg.... ;\)
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 11:25 PM
That is true Adrian, most companies get their drivers, etc. from China or other locations. In Axioms case, they own and operate the factory and control the standards of their components.
Posted By: richeydog Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/24/09 11:57 PM
 Originally Posted By: CV
 Originally Posted By: fredk
4. Quantify wherever possible. I have seen only two sets of independant measurements for AV123 products. The rocket 750 (older product) the xstatics. The 750 had a huge midrange hump which the reviewer noted. The extatics also have a midrange hump and considerably more distortion than the M80s. Both of these things will colour the sound.


So Danny Richie is a genius at humping?

I get the joke... ;\) but Danny did not create the crossover for the RS750's. That credit is given to Dick Pierce. All new Rocket speakers are designed to give the flattest response possible.

Danny did design the x-static crossover. I can't read graphs to know what a midrange hump is, but here is the frequency response of that speaker.

x-static freq response
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 12:01 AM
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
The Audiobyte amps are assembled in Dwight. I'm not sure about the A1400-8, though.

Could be. I know when I visited last March they were in the process of starting up amp production in China. I guess I should not assume that means all amps.
Posted By: grunt Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 01:01 AM
 Originally Posted By: Worfzara

Some people like some of the inconsistancies of the veneer, gives more of a natural look, and others, like myself, would rather have the perfect every time looking vinyl.



I think it's awsome Axiom lets you make the choice (if you can afford it).
I can’t agree more. I especially like the vinyl because I wanted the best sound for my $ appearance is ancillary to me.

AV123s business and marketing strategies are what keep causing these problems for it. Similar issues have plagued the owner in other business ventures for the same reasons. They pre-sell far to many of their products some of which aren’t even off the drawing board so when the inevitable glitches start happening the problem escalates quickly. They now are getting away from doing this.

I think another reason you see so many vocal angry AV123 customers compared to Axiom is that for the most part Axiom lets it’s products speak for themselves whereas AV123s owner stokes up the fan-base and bystanders with his own personal excitement about his products. When emotional excitement plays a significant role in someone (purchasing) choice they experience large amounts of cognitive dissonance toward the decision. The result of this is that they either defend their decision to the death or if they change their mind they tend to go all the way from love to hate.

Cheers,
Dean
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 01:30 AM
"cognitive dissonance"....where the #*%^# is my dictionary?
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 01:59 AM
forget the dictionary. Use wikipedia. \:\)
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 02:16 AM
I wonder if wikipedia is in the dictionary yet?
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 02:56 AM
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wikipedia%20
Posted By: JohnK Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 04:18 AM
Bob, at least two items in Craig's first reply deserve comment. First, the use of "clearly" is almost never an appropriate description of differences(even where audible differences actually exist, as they do in speakers)when comparing two high-quality items and falls into the same category as "huge", "night-and-day", "blows away", etc.

Also, as Fred has touched on, the comment that the Axiom vinyl finish is "prone to rolling" is contrary to both my personal experience and my observations over about seven years here. I also can recall only one instance(not related to shipping damage, of course)in which the owner complained of vinyl peeling. Since you mention that this is a concern of yours you should be aware that, contrary to the quoted comment, the Axiom vinyl veneer(yes, as has been pointed out, real wood finishes are almost always also veneers over MDF or similar, rather than what Alan has pointed out is the acoustically problematic solid wood)is considered to be a strong point. If there was a problem, veteran Axiom owners or forum members would be the ones who were aware of it. There isn't.
Posted By: grunt Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 06:25 AM
 Originally Posted By: Adrian
"cognitive dissonance"....where the #*%^# is my dictionary?


Hey all you hard working taxpayers helped pay for my Masters so I figure I should share something.

And just because you live in Canada don’t think your money doesn’t support the USAF.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 11:07 AM
I WAS concerned about the vinyl back then. Craig seemed to be somewhat authorative on many posts that I had read by him. When he wrote that in his email to me I was a bit concerned and started this thread

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=239375&fpart=1

on Jan 7. Many of you seemed to think I was talking about color but it didn't matter. There were 4 pages of posts and not 1 complaint of vinyl problems. I stopped giving Craig so much weight in his analysis after that. I also did pick up his alluding to the Axiom being fatiguing by his ambiguous comment about the Rockets not being fatiguing. I probably could have continued my emails until I became a convert but I'm not THAT slow.

I did check out Aperion and 1 other DI (i have to look back because the name escapes me) and considered trying the Aperion side by side. Aperion has free shipping both ways. I could just see my living room with 2 sets of everything.

Although Axiom has several great reviews, this forum is probably Axiom's best selling tool. How ironic that a certain competitor would consider shutting his down.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 01:55 PM
Here is a blind testing craigsub did of the Axiom M80's. His findings are quite contradictory to what he told BOB/335 when he was shopping for speakers. Check out post #40. Very interesting ;\) .

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17247&page=4
Posted By: Worfzara Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 02:14 PM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335

I did check out Aperion and 1 other DI (i have to look back because the name escapes me) and considered trying the Aperion side by side. Aperion has free shipping both ways. I could just see my living room with 2 sets of everything.

Although Axiom has several great reviews, this forum is probably Axiom's best selling tool. How ironic that a certain competitor would consider shutting his down.



Bob

I have never heard of Aperion. Yes, I know, I live in a bubble. Anyways, I was on their website and they look pretty cool, their top speaker, 6t is less than half the price of the of the M80's. Reviews are very good on them.

What made you decide on Axiom over Aperion without hearing them?

paul
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 02:39 PM
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
Here is a blind testing craigsub did of the Axiom M80's. His findings are quite contradictory to what he told BOB/335 when he was shopping for speakers. Check out post #40. Very interesting ;\) .

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17247&page=4


That doesn't surprise me whatsoever, nothing personally against Craig but I usually take any of these personal test and comparisons with a grain of salt ... heck I base very little value in most 'professional' reviewers.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 02:54 PM
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
Here is a blind testing craigsub did of the Axiom M80's. His findings are quite contradictory to what he told BOB/335 when he was shopping for speakers. Check out post #40. Very interesting ;\) .

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17247&page=4


This was the review that I had asked Craig about in the first place. I had noticed it was from 2005 and I tracked him down to ask him if he still felt that way. You read his response.

There are a few other curious comments in that review.

In post #40 he states:

"Make sure, if you are interested in these speakers, that you get amplification and front end worthy of them. I can easily understand why people could consider them "bright" when using a $700 receiver."

In post #43 he states:

"Look into Harmon Kardon receivers for entry level performance - Here is one for under $700 delivered from OneCall that will work great - Harmon Kardon 635

A receiver under $700 will work GREAT?

Hey. I'm not as dumb as I look! Do you think that I listen to any of you guys at all?
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 02:56 PM
 Originally Posted By: RickF
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
Here is a blind testing craigsub did of the Axiom M80's. His findings are quite contradictory to what he told BOB/335 when he was shopping for speakers. Check out post #40. Very interesting ;\) .

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17247&page=4


That doesn't surprise me whatsoever, nothing personally against Craig but I usually take any of these personal test and comparisons with a grain of salt ... heck I base very little value in most 'professional' reviewers.




Is Craig a "professional reviewer"? At the time I read through that review I thought he was just a Joe with a desire to audition speakers almost as a hobby.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 03:11 PM
 Originally Posted By: Worfzara
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335

I did check out Aperion and 1 other DI (i have to look back because the name escapes me) and considered trying the Aperion side by side. Aperion has free shipping both ways. I could just see my living room with 2 sets of everything.

Although Axiom has several great reviews, this forum is probably Axiom's best selling tool. How ironic that a certain competitor would consider shutting his down.



Bob

I have never heard of Aperion. Yes, I know, I live in a bubble. Anyways, I was on their website and they look pretty cool, their top speaker, 6t is less than half the price of the of the M80's. Reviews are very good on them.

What made you decide on Axiom over Aperion without hearing them?

paul





Check the price of Aperion again!

http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-6T-Tower-Speaker,110,28,255.aspx

I decided that I liked the idea of a dedicated midrange section. I know that most of what we hear and most of what musical instruments produce is in that range. I also know that that thinking is somewhat flawed as there are many great high end 2 way speakers out there. I do like the flair at the bottom of the cabinet for more stability on the Aperion.

I have to say that I was impressed with Axiom's track record in the industry and their R&D along with the many good reviews and awards on their products. Of course that's not fair to an up and coming company. Only time can bring about a track record.

Maybe I should get the Aperion delivered also? Maybe downgrade my order to M80's only and do a compasrison first???
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 03:18 PM
Might be mixing Canadian/US pricing?
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 03:43 PM
Bob, I gotta say that I believe you're over-thinking this.

Relax. You're going to love the Axioms.

And, I assume you're joking when you keep posting that you're checking the door everyday. In case you're not, Axiom sends an e-mail to let you know when the order has shipped... (just in case you DIDN'T know that!).....
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 03:46 PM
Yes, he was joking about checking his front door everyday, Mark. He hasn't been home since he ordered the M80s, he's set up a tent outside the local Fedex distributor!
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 03:55 PM
\:\)

I just wanted to make sure! It would suck to order Outlet stuff without knowing you get a "shipped" e-mail and spend all that time with your nose pressed against the window.

This from someone who admittedly is really bad about waiting for a delivery or customer or other reason for the door to ring....
Posted By: Worfzara Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 03:59 PM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
 Originally Posted By: Worfzara
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335

I did check out Aperion and 1 other DI (i have to look back because the name escapes me) and considered trying the Aperion side by side. Aperion has free shipping both ways. I could just see my living room with 2 sets of everything.

Although Axiom has several great reviews, this forum is probably Axiom's best selling tool. How ironic that a certain competitor would consider shutting his down.



Bob

I have never heard of Aperion. Yes, I know, I live in a bubble. Anyways, I was on their website and they look pretty cool, their top speaker, 6t is less than half the price of the of the M80's. Reviews are very good on them.

What made you decide on Axiom over Aperion without hearing them?

paul





Check the price of Aperion again!



Sorry, I didn't see the "each" part, I thought is was for a pair. This is what happens when I do this kind of stuff ealy Sunday morning.

Thanks

paul
Posted By: Worfzara Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 04:07 PM
I noticed the flair stands at the bottom of the Aperion's as well. It gives me some ideas.

And I wouldn't change your order either. At some point you need to stop researching, be confident in your decision and start enjoying your purchase.

paul
Posted By: bridgman Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 04:33 PM
>>At some point you need to stop researching, be confident in your decision and start enjoying your purchase.

I never reach that point. I just run out of time and get to the point where every option has problems and I wonder if I should be buying any of them.

That's when I say "what the ^%#&^$%" and pick whatever feels right at the moment. I'm always happy with the results.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 07:05 PM
Mark,
I probably posted a couple of times in other threads that my delivery date is set for Feb 1. So yes I am kidding. Noreen was very pleasant on the phone (when I upped my order to include the QS8's and VP150) and informed me that I would get an email when shipped.

I haven't really overthought the decision on Axiom. For some strange reason I am pretty confident in that decision. Actually pretty strange for me who is soooooo picky about things and never heard these speakers. People who know me well would believe that I spent that much money on speakers (yes this is a lot even though it's probably at the low end of a quality system) however, those same people would NEVER believe that I spent that much money without hearing them. and without going back and hearing them again. and again. and again before buying them.

One concern is do I really need a center channel. (which is a recent development) but more so am I choosing the right sub. But both of these are on other threads.

To get back on topic, what happened to the OP asking about the Rockets?
Posted By: jakewash Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 07:38 PM
We rambled on too much and scared him off?
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 07:44 PM
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
We rambled on too much and scared him off?


Or we are just a bunch of fish who took the bait
Posted By: CV Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 07:45 PM
Hook, line of speaker.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/25/09 07:50 PM
 Originally Posted By: CV
Hook, line of speaker.


Very clever! \:D
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 04:20 PM
The price on the Rockets is from a current deal they had running on the forum. They have or had (I'm not sure if the sale is over or not) 15 sets of these Rockets for $1999 plus shipping.
Posted By: jakewash Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 04:32 PM
Like I said, in their store, pricing it is not listed as such and I could not locate any specials at all on the 850's. You have to act fast with av123 as they always seem to have limited quantities.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 04:42 PM
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
We rambled on too much and scared him off?

Not at all. I was out of town over the weekend. this is a nice thread and I appreciate everyone that has added their opinions.
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 05:33 PM
 Quote:
That's when I say "what the ^%#&^$%" and pick whatever feels right at the moment. I'm always happy with the results.

\:D

Thats how I ended up with the EP350. Works for me too.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 05:35 PM
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
We rambled on too much and scared him off?


Or we are just a bunch of fish who took the bait

I'm not sure what this means but to let all of you know that I am indeed interested in Axiom's speakers. I am not trying to cause any kind of feud between these two companies or the owners of their products.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 05:41 PM
 Originally Posted By: a-rone
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
We rambled on too much and scared him off?


Or we are just a bunch of fish who took the bait

I'm not sure what this means but to let all of you know that I am indeed interested in Axiom's speakers. I am not trying to cause any kind of feud between these two companies or the owners of their products.


a-rone,
I'm sure no one feels that way. Sometimes it's hard to read people's intentions on the internet and some of these guys are really strange (if you know what I mean ;\) )
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 05:42 PM
Oh I meant strange sense of humor (I think)
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 05:57 PM
 Originally Posted By: a-rone
I am not trying to cause any kind of feud between these two companies or the owners of their products.

Don't worry, a-rone, there is no feud here....this isn't the Hatfields and McCoys. Dang...Cleatis!! bring me my gun!!
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 05:59 PM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
Oh I meant strange sense of humor (I think)


No you got it correct the first time ;\)

I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger (The JOKER)

Gosh I love that movie.

My intent about the fish was more making fun of myself and the other Axiom members.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 07:39 PM
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
Oh I meant strange sense of humor (I think)


No you got it correct the first time ;\)


My intent about the fish was more making fun of myself and the other Axiom members.


See, maybe strange WAS right.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 08:14 PM
Axiom's forum is a very hospitable place, thank you all for the nice welcome. When I make my change from my av123 "X" series speakers I want that change to be a significant change for the better. How are the M60's vs. the M80's for home theater?
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 08:38 PM
a-rone, I am currently waiting for M80s. Some members here have both M60s and M80s or have owned each at different times. I'm sure one of them will post comments on the comparison between the two. There should be some info comparing the two in the forums somewhere, nevertheless, if you email Alan Lofft or Brent through their link at the top of the page (email our Audio/Vid...) I know they would be more than happy to explain the differences between the two beyond the actual specs. \:\)
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 08:50 PM
I may have already stated this on this thread but read through this thread
http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=238133#Post238133
I know that many questions were answered for me and there might be some M60 vs 80 content in there.
Posted By: jakewash Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 09:00 PM
Here is a link to a thread where I and another forum member compared m22, m60 and m80s, we have since learned our thoughts of the M22 were due to a bad position in the room and subsequent listening has found them to sound very similar to M80s, at least for mids and highs, once paired with a sub the differences are much more subtle.

http://axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=207481&fpart=1
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/26/09 09:21 PM
Great link, Jay. I can just picture you guys like a couple of kids...hey, let's try this...what about this?...help me lift this one...
Posted By: turbo16v Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 01:34 AM
This makes me laugh,..this was a thread with people wondering what ever happened to a product they PAID for but has not even been produced yet..... and somehow it turns out to be axioms fault...

QUOTE
PLEASE do NOT compare the garbage that Axiom produces and calls speakers to ANYTHING that av123.com produces. they are not even in the same league, hell even the same sport. I have owned both and I can tell you first hand that axiom speakers are in short, poorly made, poorly designed, and very poorly implemented. they are shrill to the point of making your ears BLEED at anything over quiet volumes, are incredibly fatiguing and all around painful. Sure, they are much better than most B&M store HTIB or even some lower end JBL, Klipsch etc, but...they are not even CLOSE to what you can buy for the same or less money.

Their speakers are overpriced cheaply made boxes that do NOT please. I am 100% sure that all their so called accolades online have been prepaid for (including their magazine reviews) based purely on how much in advertising they have spent. there is NO other explaination that I can see for such accolades for their speakers. (this also goes to show that a speaker can map out well in an anechoic chamber with great numbers and still sound terrible btw)

at low volumes, they sound good, and very detailed, but turn that receiver or amp up to even somewhat louder volumes, and prepare to hear the nails on a chalkboard!!!
_______________________________________________________

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=38149&page=6



WOW
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 01:48 AM
Sounds like someone *#*@ in his cornflakes or something. Funny how some people can go on a rant for such a long time and actually say absolutely nothing. So, the guy loves Paradigms but not Axioms? that says volumes right there. If anyone told me they do not like a certain sound then that would cover a lot of other speakers too. You don't like Axiom...then you won't like Paradigm, Monitor Audio, B&W, Kef....Never heard AV123 products before but am assuming they would make the same list. This guy has '0' credibility, because he said absolutely nothing in his rant.
Posted By: richeydog Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:03 AM
You guys realize who posted that, right? A former disgruntled Axiom owner who spent a lot of time harassing everyone here. He goes by the name of JINX! Please do not take him seriously...
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:10 AM
Oh, dude, that was Jinx? AV123 is cursed with that moron, too? Sorry to hear that...
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:16 AM
Bbigwwyres, Jinx, Slownlo, they are all the same.. lol
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:19 AM
Oh, there's more than one moron in the world, Randy.
Posted By: richeydog Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:25 AM
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Oh, dude, that was Jinx? AV123 is cursed with that moron, too? Sorry to hear that...

That is Jinx. He bought some Rockets about a year ago. Now he's one of the gang.
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:28 AM
Well, I guess I'm glad he's happy with what he's got.
Posted By: JohnK Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 05:13 AM
Yeah, Michael; and one illustration here how things can change from "fantastic" and "thrilled".
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 11:11 AM
But that was back in '05 also the time period when Craig did his review. The M80's now pale to the Rocket's.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 11:27 AM
I've been reading through that thread. Seems AV123 has a different problem in EVERY area of their forum. Seems the Rockets are good but how can you have any confidence in them when everything else is a problem.

Here is more from Jinx. btw I read the link here from '05. But first a quote from another AV123 member:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jongaro
i think you've been watching a little too much of the X-Files.

axiom probably isn't nearly as bad as you say, the reviewers have given av123 thumbs up even though they advertise there too, seaton is not a genius, and the two do not have comparable products.


oh trust me, Axiom is as bad as i say and then some. but if you don't believe me feel free to throw some money down the toilet and order some fo their speakers.

as for comparing av123 and axiom, they have similar sized products for sure such as the rs760's to the m60ti's but....size is all that is similar. the 2 are so far apart it's not even funny, and the axioms are way more money for so much less. personally, i am SHOCKED that more people do not send their products back..but then again..there's not accounting for taste, and i think a lot of people convince themselves that what they are hearing is better than it is cause others tell them it must be...and to justify the money they have spent.
__________________
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 12:17 PM
In short, he's a drama queen.

Everything is absolutely amazing or absolute garbage. He likes listening to himself. His opinion is what everyone should bow to, though he doesn't realize that blocking a speaker by putting a couch in front of it will affect the sound.

The future Mr. Blackwell.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 12:53 PM
I just spent the last hour reading more of THAT thread in that OTHER forum. Boy do they have some problems over there. The MFW-15 that I was considering is nothing compared to the many other problems they have!
Posted By: davidsch Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 12:59 PM
 Originally Posted By: mdrew
Listen to both, buy the set you prefer. These comparitive debates are pointless. It's impossible to tell anyone what kind of cool-aid they prefer.

If you want to know speciific information regarding Axiom products, ask away. You'll get specific responces.


I completely agree with Mike. Test them both and send back the one that you like the least. As far as the vinyl on the Axioms, I have used my vinyl M22s since 2003, and they look very good except for the bottom edges at the seams. If I had not moved them from being mains to surrounds to wall mounted surrounds to my brother-in-law's as TV speakers to my stand mounted surrounds, they probably would still look perfect. With that said, if looks of the speaker are critical to you, I would choose between the Vassalo line and the Rocket line (whichever sounds best to you).
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 12:59 PM
I am, once again, concerned about the Axioms being too bright. Can one opinion outweigh all of you here? Well, they'll be here soon and then I'll know.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 01:52 PM
 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
In short, he's a drama queen.


Well said, and to thepoint, Mark.
Bob, sounds to me like you're going a little stir crazy there...I would suggest that the word bright is an erroneous description of several speaker lines. I feel most of these people are confusing 'bright' with 'detail', I'd rather hear a natural reproduction of music or sound effects, the way it was recorded. The sound of dropping a pile of change on a ceramic floor is irritating to the ears...it shouldn't be any difference then, if Al Pacino is the one who dropped them onscreen. The only speaker I auditioned that I could use the term bright was probably the Klipsch...Paradigm Studios go high too, but clearly. If some want to call that "bright", and a few do, then that's up to them. I know I want detail when I hear music or watch movies so I ordered the Axioms.
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 02:16 PM
Good lord, jinx again? Drama queen and complete idiot, good thing he's not around these parts anymore ... he'd make our best rednecks down here seem as if they held a degree from Yale.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 02:27 PM
Hey Rick,

Tell us how you really feel.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 02:29 PM
I think he was holding back, actually.
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 02:56 PM
Bob, here's a quote from the same moron back in 06.

"these Axiom speakers are not to be doubted...and MUST be heard to be believed...and i think others would RAVE about them if they cost $4000.00 or more, but since they are so inexpensive, and a real bargain i'd say, i think ppl discount them cause they believe that they can't possibly be as good as everyone says since they are so cheap. well...let me assure you my friends...and i'm sure KJohn will attest, they ARE just that good, and maybe even better, regardless of price."

No one should give this guys opinion any merit what so ever.

Here's more.

" THANK YOU Axiom...for making an amazing product, which really should cost more like 2000.00 a pair, but i'm glad they are not greedy."

I hope you get the point.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 03:07 PM
I was just reading some of his (Jinx) previous posts here. He is certainly is full of contradictions, let him stay on "that other forum", sooner or later his trolling abilities will show him up again. Maybe he just needs a hug...any volunteers?
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 03:23 PM
 Originally Posted By: wid
Bob, here's a quote from the same moron back in 06.

"these Axiom speakers are not to be doubted...and MUST be heard to be believed...and i think others would RAVE about them if they cost $4000.00 or more, but since they are so inexpensive, and a real bargain i'd say, i think ppl discount them cause they believe that they can't possibly be as good as everyone says since they are so cheap. well...let me assure you my friends...and i'm sure KJohn will attest, they ARE just that good, and maybe even better, regardless of price."

No one should give this guys opinion any merit what so ever.

Here's more.

" THANK YOU Axiom...for making an amazing product, which really should cost more like 2000.00 a pair, but i'm glad they are not greedy."

I hope you get the point.



OK I got it! I shouldn't give his opinion any merit what so ever when he says how great Axiom speakers are. Right?
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 03:31 PM

If that's how you want to interpret it.
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 03:32 PM
I certainly wouldn't base my buying habits on this Jinx fellas merits but by now you have been around these parts long enough to know who fluffs and who's for real. If we, as collective consumers of Axiom's products weren't happy with our purchases I doubt many of us wouldn't have stayed so long and bought more products from Axiom.
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 03:34 PM
Heck, I'd have bought more stuff from Axiom if they hadn't given them to me first. \:\)
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 03:42 PM
\:D
Posted By: Murph Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:01 PM
Then you should give them to me and see if I will buy more. That would prove your point undoubtedly. ::insert silly grin of choice here::
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:07 PM
After reading those posts by Jinx, I would not hold any merit in what this guy has to say. It is clear that this guy just spews garbage even if it is something good to say about a product. It is clear in his statements (praising or bashing a product) that this persons thought process is clearly motivated solely by emotions and hype and not through any sort of rational decision making.




Posted By: michael_d Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:14 PM
Word of caution fellers……dragging someone else’s trash into your home may have lingering effects and it will take forever to get rid of the smell. I’d leave that trash where you find it and not bring it here.

Bob,

Axioms are bright. Use whatever term you want to make you feel better about it (revealing, detailed, accurate, whatever), but they all mean the same. I only say this so you won’t be too disappointed when you initially fire them up. You’re going to hear things you haven’t heard before, both good and bad. If they are not to your liking at first, don’t despair and give them a little more time.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:36 PM
I'm really NOT worried! REALLY! However, I have no fingernails left for some reason.
Posted By: jakewash Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 04:57 PM
\:D
Posted By: tomtuttle Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 07:04 PM
Anybody know where I can get some Streem speakers?

Also, what Mike said.
Posted By: HAY Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 07:17 PM
I just feel bad that jinx is one of our border guards as per his axiom details...someone help us if he is.

Here's another positive post from him

It's funny he bought everything off ebay pumped it up and then sold or traded them. At one point wanting to trade in at Axiom his used pair with the trade up program. He also bought 2 HSU VTF3-MK2 used, raved about them and then sold them on canuck audio mart.

In the end I think he just wants to get the "best" named speakers regardless of how they sound just so he can say he has them.
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 07:40 PM
As far as to bringing up old posts from Jinx, to me it was in context to this thread. I feel in this case it had to be noted, by his own words, to show the quality of his character.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 08:38 PM
Just came from my local audio store to pick up a sub. While I was there I checked out the newest version of the P'digm Studio 100s. (slobbering on keyboard). P'digm has changed the cabinets to a parabolic shape,completely rounded like the Mirage OMD cabinets, very nice in rosenut.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 09:05 PM
It's the shape of the model above the Studio 100's. I think some component upgrades too. You can probably snag a good deal on the old model.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 09:10 PM
Some guy had bought the very 100s I had auditioned a couple of weeks ago while I was picking up my sub. I thought the last 100s were sexy, but these!!
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 09:22 PM
OK, get a sandwich, guys, and something to drink. I have run off at the mouth again

WOW! Hi guys. I caught this thread when it started, and then went on a little vacation to Palm Desert, California. Got back last Saturday. I would simply like to correct some erroneous conclusions and offer up some opinions of my own.

For those of you who do not know me I offer my background. As you can see by my join date and post count, I have been a relatively longtime member of this forum. I have owned and enjoyed M60s, VP150, QS8s, and still own, enjoy, and treasure an EP500 subwoofer. All, except the EP500, are doing yeoman’s duty in my brother’s living room in Ft. Myers, FL.

I currently own, and enjoy, Rocket 850s (signature edition), RSC200 "Bigfoot" center channel (signature edition), RSS300 Mark II surrounds (all of which were a gift to me from Mark Schifter) and RS250 Mark II rear surrounds which I purchased myself. The difference between signature models and "classic" models is in the crossover network. Dunno the difference between Mark II models and earlier models.

When my Mother died 2 years ago, I needed to find some sort of income to keep me off the streets and I mentioned that fact to Mark Schifter. To my amazement, he replied "you're hired." Sadly, this has not yet come to pass. However, I do participate at the AV123 forum as a "helperouter" moderator and ambassador. So, if you so desire, you may dismiss my opinions as biased because I am "affiliated" with AV123.

AV123. Due to some poor decisions, AV123 has had problems living up to its reputation for unexcelled customer service. Mark has, time and again, admitted as much on the forum, and is doing all possible to rectify the situation. For example, there have been problems with subwoofer amplifiers. Turns out the OEM feel victim to the counterfeit parts that have been flooding the Chinese market. To the best of my knowledge, this has now been rectified, but some of the bad amps are still out there waiting to fail.

These, and other problems, have created some justifiably unhappy and angry customers. In the not too distant past, complainers have been poorly received by the regular forum members and would be shouted down, more often because of HOW they complained rather than simply because they were complaining (Bob, sorry you were turned off by this). Angry complainers and angry forum members have a tendency to become personally insulting. Long time members here should be able to remember TonyG (and Mark Williams’ responses to him), Jinx, and others. (Was Jinx the one who changed the colors on the forum software? No, it was someone else, I’m pretty sure).

However, some time ago, Mark asked the more vociferous defenders to back off stating that people with legitimate issues should have the right to complain. Though it took time, they finally got the message and have severely curtailed their behavior. A moderated “Customer Service Issues and Needs” forum was created to address issues and work toward resolutions. But now, many of the complainers feel free to be unreasonably and unnecessarily excessive in THEIR behavior. There have been people jumping all over regular forum members who don’t even own AV123 products. And, there are those who have gone past the point of working to resolve a situation and are simply grinding an axe and seeking a pound of flesh which is as unreasonable and unacceptable as shouting down a legitimate complaint.

By the way, the AVS thread linked to, on page 2 of this thread seems to have been deleted, so I’m unable to address the issue. However, there is one gentleman who is posting all over the internet who purchased a gift certificate to buy a product that was, and still is, in development and who is disgruntled that he can’t get his money back. Never mind that it is clearly stated that gift certificates are nonrefundable. In addition, numerous offers of compensation have been presented to him, all of which he has found unacceptable. He isn’t interested in reasonable compensation, he is so angry that HE WANTS BLOOD! (you know, kinda like TonyG and Jinx will extract an ounce of the stuff any time Axioms are mentioned)

Sorry. Much too verbose in making the point that there have been screw ups, Mark has been open and honest about them, and has been, and is, trying to resolve them.

The Rocket 750s which, in this thread, have been used as the yardstick for the AV123 sound (“laid back,” “warm,” “mid-bass hump”) have been discontinued for years and bears little sonic resemblance to the current Rocket line. Even the 850 classics have had an upgrade to the signature model. However, since the way a speaker’s sound is perceived is subjective, and can be strongly influenced by the sound to which one is currently accustomed, some may still find a Rocket to be “warm” just as some will find an Axiom to be “bright.” Believe it or not, there is some source material which makes my 850s sound “bright.”

Is Craig biased? Sure he is. I don’t believe “unbiased opinion” exists. We all have biases, including those here on this forum. However, I believe Craig “tries,” to the best of his ability, to present an unbiased opinion. You can be sure that the opinion he gives you is, in fact, his honest opinion. No BS. Because he really liked the M80s does not mean that he could not prefer the 850s. However, I disagree with his comments about the Axiom vinyl. Though I have seen a couple of complaints about seams, I never had a problem with mine and believe that the percentage of Axioms which have had problems with the vinyl is negligible.

Ah yes! Jinx. Not my favorite forum member, but at least he hasn’t created (yet) the s**tstorm he created here. I agree with many of the opinions expressed in this thread. Regrettably, in addition to the problems he had with the company and the product, his need to trash Axioms, any time they are mentioned, is greatly exacerbated by the way he was treated (justifiably) here on the forum.

Having owned both Axioms and Rockets, I have, many times, been asked for my opinions. With rare exception, I, usually, only have responded privately. My response has most often be some version of the following (comments in brackets { } are added for the benefit of this forum):

In my experience, both companies are a joy to deal with. Both have fabulous customer service, and both make, IMHO, high quality speakers. Both have forums with mostly good guys willing to be honest and helpful, and both have a few clinkers.

I had the Axioms (M60s/VP150/QS8s) for a year, and my first impressions of the Rockets were colored by being accustomed to the Axiom sound. Had the situation been reversed, my opinion of the Axioms would have been colored by being accustomed to the Rocket sound. I am one of those who does not subscribe to the concept of "speaker break-in." I believe what people refer to as “break-in” is actually the listener becoming accustomed to the sound of the speakers. Regardless, the effect is the same.

I currently have the Rocket RS850 signatures. Regretfully, I’ve not heard the 760s, so I have no basis for comparison to the 850s beyond what you yourself may have already read on the AV123 forum.

I have the Rocket RCS200 "Bigfoot" center channel, and I find it noticeably superior to the VP150. A lower frequency response, and a dedicated midrange driver, make for richer warmer sounding voices, and the off axis response of the Bigfoot, in my room, is better than the VP150's. That being said, in no way should you interpret that to mean that the VP150 is a BAD speaker. I know many owners who are perfectly satisfied with the VP150. It is vastly superior to any of the center channel speakers I had previously, but I prefer the Bigfoot, by a fairly large margin.
{Ken, I know you feel differently. No problem}

I'm used my QS8 surrounds with the 850s until I received the Rocket RSS300 dipole surrounds. I find the dispersion qualities of the QS8s superior to those of the 300s (quadpolar vs. dipolar). Just as above, you should not interpret that as implying the 300s aren’t good surrounds. They are. In fact, understandably, they blend better with the other Rocket speakers, but I had no problem whatsoever with using Axiom surrounds with Rocket mains and center. I have two friends who moved from Axioms to Rockets, and both are as impressed with the 300s as they were with the QS8s. {Mark has opined publicly that the QS design probably is superior to the RSS300 design. I agree}

{If I had the ability to influence Mark and Ian, I would tell Mark to build a quadpolar surround, and I would tell Ian to make a WT/MW center channel. Alas, nobody listens to me ;\) }

The M60s and RS850s are tough to qualify. I honestly like them both, and if I could only have one of them, I could easily be happy with either. Proponents of each brand will tell you the two speakers sound VERY different. I agree that there is a difference, but I don’t find it as huge as others do. YMMV.

Axiom fans would describe this difference as "Axioms = accurate, Rockets = laid back." Rocket fans would describe the difference as "Axioms = forward, Rockets = accurate." The difference is basically the same, but they use terms to describe that difference which reflect their preference and are flattering to their favorite brand while unflattering to the competition.

There are positives and negatives to each side of this difference. I notice the difference most when listening to music. For HT, IMHO, they are both flawless. When playing a wonderfully recorded/mixed/mastered disc, the Axioms have a knock your socks off “WOW” factor. The 850s also have a “WOW” factor, just not quite as big as the M60s (only one sock gets knocked off ;\) ), but a "WOW" nonetheless.

On the other hand, when playing a less than ideally recorded disc, and there are all too many of these in existence, the Axioms will reveal all, and that disc will not sound very good (garbage in/garbage out). The 850s will be a bit more forgiving when playing poorly recorded/mixed/mastered discs. So, Axioms = big “WOW” factor/don’t like lousy discs. Rockets = slightly smaller “WOW” factor (but still a "WOW")/more forgiving with lousy discs.

The 850s are stunningly beautiful, wood veneer, speakers. While I don't feel the vinyl Axioms are bad looking at all, and was not ashamed, in the least, to have them in my living room, the wood veneered Rockets are drop dead" gorgeous." With the introduction of the wood veneered Axioms, that playing field has been leveled. I find the curved sides of the Rockets tastefully beautiful, and a bit more attractive than the angle-sided Axioms.

Please remember, each opinion you receive in answer to your question, including mine, is just that - merely someone else's opinion. There is no guarantee you will see/hear things the same way. What matters is YOUR opinion. IMHO, neither choice is a BAD one. It all comes down to what you want, and which you would prefer.


I probably have more comments, but you've suffered enough

Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 09:27 PM
That's an excellent post, Jack. It's nice to hear from someone who's heard both.

As to the Bigfoot, my opinions were certainly colored by other issues during the listening session, none of which were the fault of my host. Had I heard it properly, my opinion might differ.
Posted By: tomtuttle Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 09:39 PM
Nice work, Jack. You still have a future as a diplomat.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 09:41 PM
Thaomas, are you implying that I'm perched on the fence?
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 09:45 PM
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
That's an excellent post, Jack. It's nice to hear from someone who's heard both.

As to the Bigfoot, my opinions were certainly colored by other issues during the listening session, none of which were the fault of my host. Had I heard it properly, my opinion might differ.
I know exactly what you mean. There have been several speakers I've heard in less than ideal conditions and didn't much care for. Later I've heard them under better circumstances and had a differing opinion.

LOL! I was thinking you heard the Bigfoot at Dennis' until I remembered that he doesn't even have one. He uses an 850 for a center. DUH!
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 10:11 PM
Hey Jack,

Thanks for taking the time to offer your thoughts on this thread. I as well as the others here (I'm sure) recognize the effort and passion that you bring to the discussion.

I agree that the Rocket 850 is a beautiful looking speaker and I can even tell just from the website. I was VERY interested in the special he had at Christmas into January which was 2 Rocket 850's and 2 MFW-15's. I spoke with MLS in person on the phone and he shared with me his 3% failure rate on the amps for the subs. Those were his words. I had little knowledge of that problem and absolutely NO IDEA of all the other problems he has.

"These, and other problems, have created some justifiably unhappy and angry customers. In the not too distant past, complainers have been poorly received by the regular forum members and would be shouted down, more often because of HOW they complained rather than simply because they were complaining (Bob, sorry you were turned off by this)."

I was in NO WAY turned off by the complaints on the forum or HOW anyone was complaining. I am a businessman myself. I would not like to dispute any loyalty or NOT that you may show towards Mark. What can NOT be disputed IMHO is his LACK of taking care of the many problems he has. He stages his replys with an "Oh me Oh my" LAME excuse making over and over again. FIX THE PROBLEMS and STOP belly-aching!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't try to defend this man. There is NO DEFENSE!

His Rockets may be great but he is LOWSY at running a business. Customer Satisfation is EVERYTHING in any business nevermind an internet based business that relys on customer support and word of mouth.

Sorry to go there but you did mention my name.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 10:49 PM
Bob, I am so sorry that you misinterpreted what I said. If you will look again, you'll see that I regretted you were turned off by complainers being poorly received and shouted down, NOT by the complainers themselves or their complaints.

" These, and other problems, have created some justifiably unhappy and angry customers. In the not too distant past, complainers have been poorly received by the regular forum members and would be shouted down, more often because of HOW they complained rather than simply because they were complaining (Bob, sorry you were turned off by this).

Also I regret that you chose to interpret what I had to say as "defending" anyone or anything. I merely offered explanations. I hope you will not confuse "explanations" with "excuses" or "justifications."
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 11:04 PM
Jack,

I apologize for mis-reading that first quote. I guess it was statements such as:

"Mark has, time and again, admitted as much on the forum, and is doing all possible to rectify the situation."

I do NOT believe he is doing ALL possible. The more I read over there the more I see how LOOOOOOOOONGG this has been going on. Sorry but no excuse for that.

"And, there are those who have gone past the point of working to resolve a situation and are simply grinding an axe and seeking a pound of flesh which is as unreasonable and unacceptable as shouting down a legitimate complaint."

Good thing I am not in with this group. They would seem meek compared to how I would be handling this. Luckily for me and everyone here, I can exhibit the me (with my "other" character defects) that I prefer to exhibit.
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 11:35 PM
Bob/335

I have to agree with you on how things are handled. With internet direct companies perception plays a big role and with a company message board you can get a "feel" what the company is all about. Its all about first impressions

I can't comment on their speakers ( I am sure they are a fine product) but I can see how each company runs their business through the internet. The main difference I percieve between these two companies is that Axiom is much more professional in the way they run their company and handle their matters through the internet. AV123 business to me seems to thrive on choas and spin control. AV123 owner seems like an incredible salesman. I am sure he could sell chewing gum to someone with lockjaw.
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/27/09 11:54 PM
Excellent post Jack. I have been looking for a reasoned comparison between the rocket line and Axiom tower.

 Quote:
The Rocket 750s which, in this thread, have been used as the yardstick for the AV123 sound

That was me and you are right, I should have mentioned that the 750 is discontinued. If you look at the anechoic measurements for the Xstatics, the other example I used as a 'yardstick', they also have a raised midrange.

Your comments on the M60 vs rocket 850 fits with what I have been guessing at. A raised midrange (as opposed to midrange hump [think camel]) will give a speaker a warmer sound and the rolled off highs is probably what gives them a more laid back sound. I am willing to bet that an anechoic graph of the 850 would look similar to the Xstatic.

I puzzled over the fact that both the M80 and the 850 had been compared to the Paradigm Studio 100, but now that I understand a lot more about how some things affect sound, it makes more sense.

If you found the M60 a little more detailed than the 850, the M80 will have more detail again. If you like that detailed live sound (like I do), then the M80 would be the ideal choice.

Technically a neutral speaker is one that produced exactly what it is fed, no broad rises of rolloffs in response. There, like it or not, Axiom gets the nod (with the plusses and minuses you noted). I am still willing to bet that the M80 is as close to neutral as you will get in that price range. That does not mean that the rockets will sound bad or even a lot different than the M60/80, just, as you noted, a little different.

Your comments about the center reflect the general consensus on center speaker design and is what drove me to use dual M2s as a center. The vertical alignment of the tweeter and mid drivers eliminates horizontal comb filtering and provides a better off axis response. The penalty for the better sound is that the bigfoot is quite tall for a center and doesn’t always fit into an equipment cabinet (not a good idea anyway).
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 12:13 AM
 Quote:
AV123 business to me seems to thrive on choas and spin control. AV123 owner seems like an incredible salesman. I am sure he could sell chewing gum to someone with lockjaw.

I don't think that is quite right.

MLS has shown a lot of courage in talking about things that have gone wrong. Thats not spin control. All companies present their product in the best light.

He does seem to thrive on a certain type of promotion/showmanship that rubs me the wrong way, but he is a long way from spinning like a politician.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 12:18 AM
 Originally Posted By: fredk
The penalty for the better sound is that the bigfoot is quite tall for a center and doesn’t always fit into an equipment cabinet (not a good idea anyway).

LOL! No kidding! Look at what I did to get my Bigfoot to fit in my TV stand. You can see the washers at the bottom of the pillars, and the rubber stopper at the top. Fortunately, my stand is modular and comes apart. The washers and stopper are obvious in this photo. In person, they are barely noticeable. I've not had one person mention them. The extra inch+ I gained enables me to put a couple of identical stoppers under the front edge of the Bigfoot (visible in the photo) which tilts it up toward my ears. Works great!



I'm certain there are those who decide against the Bigfoot because of its size. Personally, I couldn't do without mine.



My beloved EP500 is in the corner beneath the clock. After watching a movie, that clock is rarely in that same position. it tends to do some walking. \:D
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 12:22 AM
 Originally Posted By: fredk
 Quote:
AV123 business to me seems to thrive on choas and spin control. AV123 owner seems like an incredible salesman. I am sure he could sell chewing gum to someone with lockjaw.

I don't think that is quite right.

MLS has shown a lot of courage in talking about things that have gone wrong. Thats not spin control. All companies present their product in the best light.

He does seem to thrive on a certain type of promotion/showmanship that rubs me the wrong way, but he is a long way from spinning like a politician.


The reason I said that was with the person that had those problems and stirred the pot on various forums that Bob noted. Their owner created a sale on their forum with the name based on that person. I can only interpret that one way in which I noted above.
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 12:29 AM
 Quote:
In person, they are barely noticeable

You just keep telling yourself that. ;\)

 Quote:
I'm certain there are those who decide against the Bigfoot because of its size

I am sure there are many peoples spouses who decide against those. to us guys bigger is always better.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 12:33 AM
I did NOT note anyone. Someone else here placed a link to a thread. I just read it and commented on it.

Hey Jack,

Which direction is that EP500 facing?
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 12:38 AM
I was referring to the AVS link that you posted.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 01:02 AM
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
 Originally Posted By: fredk
 Quote:
AV123 business to me seems to thrive on choas and spin control. AV123 owner seems like an incredible salesman. I am sure he could sell chewing gum to someone with lockjaw.

I don't think that is quite right.

MLS has shown a lot of courage in talking about things that have gone wrong. Thats not spin control. All companies present their product in the best light.

He does seem to thrive on a certain type of promotion/showmanship that rubs me the wrong way, but he is a long way from spinning like a politician.


The reason I said that was with the person that had those problems and stirred the pot on various forums that Bob noted. Their owner created a sale on their forum with the name based on that person. I can only interpret that one way in which I noted above.

Not sure which way you are interpreting that, but are you aware that Mark and the gentleman in question spoke on the phone, appear to have resolved the issue, ended the call on friendly terms, and, at the gentleman's request, his threads at the AV123 forum were deleted? Naming the sale thread after him appears to have been jokingly tongue-in-cheek.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 01:04 AM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
Hey Jack,

Which direction is that EP500 facing?

It's facing toward the arm of the sofa.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 01:20 AM
 Originally Posted By: fredk
 Quote:
In person, they are barely noticeable

You just keep telling yourself that. ;\)

Nuh UH! Honest injun! They just aren't that noticeable. \:\)

 Originally Posted By: fredk
 Quote:
I'm certain there are those who decide against the Bigfoot because of its size

I am sure there are many peoples spouses who decide against those. to us guys bigger is always better.

Well, in some cases, even the spouse thinks bigger is better, just not in speakers. (HAH! Beat you to it, Peter ) ;\)
Posted By: tomtuttle Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 01:31 AM
 Quote:
Thomas, are you implying that I'm perched on the fence?


No, Jack, no implication intended. As ever, I meant to compliment your friendly and diplomatic style. You possess a rare ability to impart valuable opinion on potentially divisive topics without inciting extremists.

\:\)
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 01:42 AM
damn. I wanted to be an extremist. Jack, will you incite me?
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 01:54 AM
EEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWW!
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:02 AM
Tom, I wish I had been more exact in my attempt at humor. My fault. I sincerely hope you didn't take me seriously.

Truth be told, the guys on this forum and the guys on the AV123 forum have so much more in common than not. It is frustratingly disappointing to me that brand loyalty and differing beliefs on things such as break-in, do amps sound different, tubes, etc. should prevent, if not a warm friendship, an honest respect for each other and those differing beliefs and opinions.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:11 AM
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
I was referring to the AVS link that you posted.


Would you mind showing me where I posted a link?
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:12 AM
Second post on page two of this thread, Bob. \:\)
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:18 AM
Second post on page to of THIS thread? Sorry but not only do I not see a link to any thread but also the topic back then was completely different. I would appreciate you hit the quote button to show me. Maybe it's just been a long day for me. My wife tells me I can't find anything even if it's right under my nose.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:20 AM
 Originally Posted By: Ajax
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
Hey Jack,

Which direction is that EP500 facing?

It's facing toward the arm of the sofa.


How much room is there between the face of that cab and the sofa? Does is affect the sound blasting into a sofa?
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:26 AM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
Just this very minute accidently ran across this thread in another forum. I was NOT looking for this!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1112264


There ya go. Don't know if that is the link to which Dr. House was referring (don't really care), but it IS a link to a thread on AVS which you posted.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:28 AM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
 Originally Posted By: Ajax
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
Hey Jack,

Which direction is that EP500 facing?

It's facing toward the arm of the sofa.


How much room is there between the face of that cab and the sofa? Does is affect the sound blasting into a sofa?

About 9 inches. The wave lengths of low frequencies are so long, that it doesn't really make an audible difference.
Posted By: tomtuttle Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:32 AM
Bob, it appears that on at least two occasions in this thread you publicly quoted Craig's private emails to you. Personally, I find that lapse of etiquette offensive. Furthermore, your assertion that MLS is not doing everything possible to salvage his business lacks plausible motivation.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:40 AM
Craig used to be a regular on this website, and a good friend to many of us. I would at least get his permission before posting emails or PM's.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:52 AM
You guys have me wondering, I posted some info from an email Alan sent me. I'm wondering if I should have asked him first. It was more technical spec stuff than anything, probably a bit different situation. I did contact him about some of the projects that Axiom was working on, like the 1000 crystal changer with levitating wire connections, but he swore me to secrecy.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:01 AM
That should be fine Adrian.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:04 AM
You mean about spilling the beans on the 1000 crystal changer?
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:05 AM
I would post some of the private pms I got from Randy but this is a g rated forum . Boy y'all don't want to know what's in that mind of his............scary \:D
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:09 AM
Those kinky Hillary fantasies will haunt my dreams for quite some time.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:09 AM
you have my blessing. \:\)
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:18 AM

Looks like I must have deleted them \:\)
Posted By: FordPrefect Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:26 AM
Jack, that was such a pleasure to read. I think you hit all the nails squarely on the head.

Thank you for taking a few seconds to fire off such a short novel. Hope your vacation went well.

Wayne
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:29 AM
It did Wayne. Hope you are doing well. \:\)
Posted By: FordPrefect Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:32 AM
Quite well, but instead of turning this into a private message board I'll just give you a phone call tomorrow.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:45 AM
Good. We're expecting up to 11 inches of snow between now and tomorrow afternoon, late. It should go well with the 18 inches we have on the ground now \:\/ . I suspect I'll be home \:\( . If you don't get an answer, I'm napping. Give another try a few hours later. \:\)
Posted By: tomtuttle Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:51 AM
There's nothing wrong with Ohio, except the snow and the rain.
Posted By: JohnK Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 04:58 AM
Jack, yeah all that speaker stuff was mildly interesting, but to get on to more important things, "In Butc..., Rom..., Eric we trust", Go Browns!
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 05:09 AM
True! I'll be napping due to exhaustion from shoveling snow.

P.S. You left out the fact that, annually, in Cleveland, 18% of the days are clear, 26.5% are partly cloudy, and 55% are cloudy as in NO SUNSHINE. However, the Seattle, Sea-Tac Ap area numbers are 16%, 22%, 62%. ;\)
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 05:11 AM
LOL! Ya need a program to keep up with the front office lineup. Ah yes! Rebuilding..........................still.
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 05:12 AM
Jack, get a snow blower, can't live without them in Iowa... \:\)
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 05:29 AM
I gotta get some exercise, and believe it or not I actually enjoy shoveling snow. It's great exercise. I just took a heart stress test and scored 30% better than the average 63 year old. I'm happy to say that all those years of being phyiscally active and working out paid off \:\) and I'd like to drop the superfluous 20-25 pounds I'm carrying around in this spare tire I developed while taking care of my Mother for 6 years.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 05:58 AM
x
Posted By: medic8r Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:34 PM
y
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:39 PM
z
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:40 PM
This topic makes me zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.........
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:43 PM
yyz
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 02:47 PM
zztop
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:20 PM
w
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:20 PM
t
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:21 PM
f
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:21 PM
?
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:23 PM
\:\)

Anyone else thinking this thread needs a fork put into it?
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:29 PM
That's why I asked 'WTF?' Mark ... Where's The Fork?

\:\)
Posted By: medic8r Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:33 PM
Now that's funny.

Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 03:55 PM
I see your neighbor's house renting out shortly....
Posted By: davidsch Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 06:10 PM
Excellent post as always, Jack. You did not sound like a fan boy for either company.
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 06:36 PM
Lately, he's mostly seemed like a nap fanboy!
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 08:27 PM
 Originally Posted By: davidsch
Excellent post as always, Jack. You did not sound like a fan boy for either company.

Thank you David. Though they do exist, I really loathe the pejorative term fanboy. It conjures up the image of mindless, fanatically excessive devotion to a product or company, to the exclusion of all others, simply because the fanboy owns the product. Regrettably it is, all too often, applied to rational, reasonable fans of a given product or company. I think it's fair to accuse me of, and I plead guilty to, being a fan of both companies (and others).
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 08:30 PM
 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Lately, he's mostly seemed like a nap fanboy!

Guilty as charged. I just woke up from one.
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 08:36 PM
Jeeze, either on nap or on vacation ... I can't wait. \:D
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 08:54 PM
Yeah, it's the life of Riley, Rick. \:D
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 10:40 PM
Jack - Thanks for the PM.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 10:42 PM
Next question for those who wish to give an opinion:
How do the Axiom subs compare to my MFW-15?
Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 11:24 PM
 Originally Posted By: a-rone
Next question for those who wish to give an opinion:
How do the Axiom subs compare to my MFW-15?


I have never listened to the MFW-15 but it is supposely one of the best bang for your buck subwoofers on the market. It would probably compare to the EP500 or EP600 models which are more expensive. Unless you want a matching finish with your speakers I am sure you will be just fine with the MFW-15.

Axiom also has a new subwoofer coming out called the EP800 that looks mighty impressive.
Posted By: jakewash Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/28/09 11:30 PM
I do not believe any one has compared the MFW to an Axiom, maybe a PM to Jack might have some results. I know through Craigsub's testing the MFW15 received a better rating from those that heard it than the EP500. I always felt Craig's rating was based more on loudness than against actual sound, at least in the beginning, he changed his process a little later on, IIRC, or I am confusing it with his budget speaker comparisons he did before starting up TCA. I know his ratings has the MFW slightly lower than my PB13 and I have compared the PB13 to the EP600 and it is just a matter of tastes as to which is better, I think the Axiom is better for music and the PB13 better for HT, but that is just me, YMMV.

I feel most would be hard pressed to really find much issue with any of the fine subs that are manufactured these days, for me it came down to my personal preference for a particular feel I perceived from all the different subs I auditioned.
Posted By: Ajax Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 12:13 AM
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
I feel most would be hard pressed to really find much issue with any of the fine subs that are manufactured these days, for me it came down to my personal preference for a particular feel I perceived from all the different subs I auditioned.

Absolutely TERRIFIC point, Jay.

I have never directly compared an MFW-15 to an EP500. However, I have heard both. I heard a pair of MFWs at an AV123 GTG (GetToGether)and thought them very impressive. But, I often find my EP500 to be very impressive as well. Craig rates the MFW higher than the EP500 but praises the EPs linearity (smooth frequency response).

The EP has one advantage over the MFW, and that is its DSP technology which virtually renders it bulletproof. It is possible, if you don't know what you're doing, to overdrive the MFW. However, if you overdrive a subwoofer, it is readily apparent and easily correctable.

The MFW is a terrific bang for the buck, but I have never felt deprived with my EP500.
Posted By: grunt Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 03:21 AM
 Originally Posted By: Ajax

P.S. You left out the fact that, annually, in Cleveland, 18% of the days are clear, 26.5% are partly cloudy, and 55% are cloudy as in NO SUNSHINE. However, the Seattle, Sea-Tac Ap area numbers are 16%, 22%, 62%.


I Phoenix the numbers are 58%, 23%, and 19%. ;\)

And remember on the radio it’s W.T F.O.
Posted By: HomeDad Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 04:02 AM
For Phoenix they should have 4 percenteges, the first being 40% to frikking hot to do anything. \:\)
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 04:34 AM
... but sit in the shade and dring marguaritas.
Posted By: Ray3 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 04:47 AM
 Originally Posted By: grunt
 Originally Posted By: Ajax

P.S. You left out the fact that, annually, in Cleveland, 18% of the days are clear, 26.5% are partly cloudy, and 55% are cloudy as in NO SUNSHINE. However, the Seattle, Sea-Tac Ap area numbers are 16%, 22%, 62%.


I Phoenix the numbers are 58%, 23%, and 19%. ;\)

And remember on the radio it’s W.T F.O.


Rochester is much simpler. Our 4 seasons:
1) Almost winter
2) Winter
3) Still winter
4) Road construction
Posted By: fredk Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 04:53 AM
In Ontario we are starting to see the effects of global warming. We now have:

1. extended golf season
2. winter, which could mean anything from arctic deep freeze like this year to slush season
3. almost summer
4. head north to the lake season.
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 05:01 AM
We always said we had 4 seasons in Southern California
1. Fire
2. Mudslide
3. Earthquake
4. Drought
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 05:05 AM
My part of Virginia has 4, too:

Winter
Spring
Summer
Fall


Heard of 'em?
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 05:10 AM
Nope.
Posted By: Spoiler Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 02:04 PM

South Florida:

1) Almost Fall
2) Summer
3) More Summer
4) Hurricane Watch

Posted By: medic8r Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 02:26 PM
Augusta, GA, where I did med school and residency:

1. Warm spring
1a. Masters Tournament week
2. Long, hot, humid summer
3. Slight cooling for a few months

repeat...
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 03:02 PM
Southern Ontario:

1. Snow blower season
2. Cut the grass twice a week season
3. Sauna season
4. Raking season

repeat...
Posted By: Ray3 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 04:18 PM
 Originally Posted By: medic8r
Augusta, GA, where I did med school and residency:

1. Warm spring
1a. Masters Tournament week
2. Long, hot, humid summer
3. Slight cooling for a few months

repeat...


I was fortunate to be able to go to the Masters in 1995 for all 4 days. One of the most beautiful places I've been.
Posted By: jakewash Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 05:00 PM
I couldn't begin to describe our weather, as it has no pattern, we will hit +15 C in January for 2 weeks only to drop to -30C in 2 hrs for 2 weeks, you can expect to see snow anytime of the year with temp ranges of 0(or lower) to 35c in July and August not unheard of.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 05:13 PM
You're weather in Alberta can change quickly because of the chinooks, Jay. We get some rapid changes in Ontario depending on which side of the Jet Stream we're on.
I know a couple of ex-Jamaicans who say our summers are more brutal in Ontario, mainly because of the humidity. When the temp gets up to 35-37C, when you add the humidity to it, it's in the mid 40's. Eg. I thought I had a leak in my basement last year because I saw moisture under the vapour barrier. There was no noticeabe running water on the floor (a little) so I figured it must be the humidity. Went out, bought a 45 pint portable dehumidifier and put it in the basement. Within 90 min it removed around 2 gallons of water!!
Posted By: jakewash Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 05:27 PM
Love those chinooks, just not the usual 30-50mph winds that usually come with them.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 08:14 PM
I have noticed that Axiom has a new sub out called the EP800. Are there and pics of this sub out? I did a search and am unable to find any.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 08:15 PM
Guys are just getting them delivered as you post a-rone.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 08:20 PM
Yep I noticed. But are these people getting these subs without even knowing what it looks like or are there pics out there to show those who bought one or two what they are getting?
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 08:22 PM
I'm not sure if I've seen a pic, but I know what it looks like from the description. The EP800 has the same cabinet as the EP800, but has two drivers and no port.
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 08:26 PM
 Quote:
The EP800 has the same cabinet as the EP800, but has two drivers and no port.


I'm sure Peter meant the same cabinet size of the EP600.
Posted By: EFalardeau Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 08:31 PM
Axiom introduces new products through their "owner's club" so the information, altough not "secret", is not directly available to everyone until they officially launches the products.
Most of the time, you can guess the web-page based on the other lines. Ex: http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep800.html for the product you mentionned.
Posted By: a-rone Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 08:32 PM
So it's pretty much a sealed EP600 w/ two drivers. That sounds awesome I'm sure it will be very impressive indeed. I'll keep checking the EP800 threads for pics of them out of the boxes.
Posted By: Ray3 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 09:20 PM
 Originally Posted By: wid
 Quote:
The EP800 has the same cabinet as the EP800, but has two drivers and no port.


I'm sure Peter meant the same cabinet size of the EP600.


I'd agree with you Rick. However, we should award points to Pete for being absolutely correct though!
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 09:21 PM

This is true Ray \:\)
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/29/09 09:51 PM
With friends like you, who needs friends?
Posted By: Ray3 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/30/09 01:39 AM
See, you still have that whole redundancy thing working. Working.
Posted By: BoB/335 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 09:17 PM
 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Bob, it appears that on at least two occasions in this thread you publicly quoted Craig's private emails to you. Personally, I find that lapse of etiquette offensive. Furthermore, your assertion that MLS is not doing everything possible to salvage his business lacks plausible motivation.



I posted the following and then deleted it figuring I would wait for a response from an email I sent Craig. I'm guessing he's either too busy or cares to ignore my email. Doesn't much matter to me. Either way I see nothing wrong with posting that email correspondance. I could have referred to it and said that Craig no longer agrees with HIS review that has been so widely linked to at several forums I have been on. I believe that reply by me would have been incomplete and possibly inaccurate. I tend to copy an paste quotes rather than put words in people's mouths. Sorry if some of you don't agree with that method. I would advise those NOT to send me any emails. \:\)

So here is my post that I deleted:



This very well may be my last post here. I certainly don't need anymore crap in my life than I already have. Spending way too much time here anyway.

The original poster mentioned his interest in AV123 products and Axiom. My email with Craig would have been on another public forum where he had an intensive review and a thoroughly interactive discussion had he STILL been active in that forum. I was directed to his new company forum. My question didn't seem relevant there so I emailed him the same question I would have posted to the other public forum that he no longer participated in. His answer seemed very much as honest as an answer that I would have expected him to give had it been on that forum. My follow-up and his answer was every bit as much as it would have been on a public forum. I thought my questions and his answers were relevant to the discussion at the beginning of this thread. I also believe that the discussion of this thread overall was directed at the differences between dealing with 2 completely different philosophies of running a company. I don't believe I in no way offended Craig at any time nor did I divulge any private conversations that should have stayed private. Obviously, no one else pointed out that being a problem for them. I will however email Craig and apologize to him for not asking his permission to share his continued findings with his initial review.

I do not know MLS and can not comment on his personal life and relationships. He is probably a really nice guy. However I certainly would never allow the kind of time to go by that he has without making things right or at least better. If I had had any personal dealings with that company and had the kind of problems that I have read so much about, I would never hesitate to share those experiences with anyone inquiring about that company or any company for that matter. The OP has a right to know what he may be in for and I have the right to let someone know to check out the discussions of another forum to see if there is any basis to these problems. Anyone here has the right to disagree with that decision. ( and I just happened upon a thread that was for me ANOTHER example of the problems over there.) Tell me that I made an issue of a single incident. I simply can not believe how many different threads on that site are talking about different problems. It's overwhelming! And then the owner comes on with sob stories over and over. Well that's the way I see it.

I can't believe how I managed to allow myself to get dragged into something like this. Best for me to stay away from these things and just sit in the background reading.

Thanks to all of you that gave me "patient" advice so many times! I will PM when I receive my speakers. Sorry to those of you I have offended in this thread and sorry for this long rant.
_________________________
So sorry to bring this back up at this late date but I did email Craig and was waiting to hear back before posting.

As far as my order goes, it's suppose to be shipped out Feb 1. Doubt if they ship on Sundays so it should be going out early next week. Haven't heard anything. Maybe I should change my EP350 to an EP500??????????

Posted By: BlueJays1 Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 09:23 PM
Here is where you belong Bob!

Glad to see you posting again. I hope it continues!
Posted By: HomeDad Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 09:41 PM
Bob, stick around, If you don't post a review and pictures of your speakers we will have to track you down anyway. \:\)
Posted By: RickF Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 10:28 PM
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335
Maybe I should change my EP350 to an EP500??????????


I think you should go ahead and rescind that order on the EP350 and slap an 800 in that room of yours Bob, that's what I'd do ... yep. \:\)

Oh and BTW Bob, pictures are a prerequisite for the forum whenever new speakers are received, otherwise Axiom tacks another 7.5% onto your order. Look it up, it's there in the FAQs.

\:D
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 10:40 PM
funny how nobody pushes the previous king of the hill, 600. \:\) I just keep wondering if I would get anything out of my subs if I went with an 800...
Posted By: Wid Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 10:52 PM

You shouldn't be so thin skinned and continue to post, if ya want that is. Suck it up man it's only a freakin forum.
Posted By: CV Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 10:55 PM
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I just keep wondering if I would get anything out of my subs if I went with an 800...


Do I smell a four EP800 configuration coming up?
Posted By: SirQuack Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 11:21 PM
If I want to stay married, no. ;\)
Posted By: CV Re: Axiom vs. av123's Rockets - 01/31/09 11:22 PM
Maybe the smell was on me, then. \:D
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