Speakers just arrived! Question.

Posted by: davekro

Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 05:55 PM

Woo Hoo! My speakers just arrived! No time to look this up. Busy unboxing, wiring the A/B switch for M80s/M60s. \:\) We'll see how the Denon 1909 does with both the 60's and 80's. Let the games begin! \:D

I'd guess spikes for wall to wall carpet (with pad). Buy in all my research, I never looked into (or retained ;o) what and why spikes are used vs. sitting on carpet vs. on rubber feet on carpet.

Photos will follow. Boy is Fed EX rough on the boxes! A couple of punch holes but no damage.

More later...
Posted by: Adrian

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 06:08 PM

\:\) Congrats, Dave...a busy evening lies ahead!!
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 06:16 PM

I guess I'll go with the spikes and hear the discussion later. \:\)

Off to hook up speakers fronts first.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 06:18 PM

The spikes allow the speaker to be 'anchored' to the floor for a more stable/solid footing and I would guess help to transfer the vibrations/case resonance to the ground.

I used the rubber feet, it just feels more stable to me this way.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 06:26 PM

Just the man to ask the next question. My speaker switch is not an A/B selector. I need to push A on, hopefully after turning B off and visa versa. With 4 ohm 80's and 8 ohm 60's, if I accidentally had them both on for a second (or more), I wonder if it would damage (fry) that section of the 1909? My buddy calculated the mix of the 6 & 8 ohm impedances would yield ≈ 3.4 ohms.

If that sounds about right, I wonder if a short time of a load like that (by accident) would fry those channels.
Posted by: Wid

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 06:43 PM


The Denon should just shut down if it finds the draw is to much.

Looking forward to your thoughts.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 07:38 PM

I think you are looking at 2.67 ohms with 4 ohms and 8 ohm speakers running in parallel.
Posted by: RickF

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 08:45 PM

Congrats Dave ... you know the drill regarding new digs, pictures and posting. ;\)

What'r you doing, keeping whichever set of speakers you fancy and sending the others back, regarding the 80s and 60s?
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 09:11 PM

Wow! M60's and M80's in the house! Sweet! \:\)
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 09:52 PM

Dave, your friend is correct at 3.4 ohms if the two parallel impedances are 6 and 8 ohms; David is correct at 2.67 ohms if the two are 4 and 8 ohms. The calculation is that the sum of the reciprocals of the individual impedances is equal to the reciprocal of the combined impedance; e.g., 1/4+1/8=1/X, 3/8=1/X, X=8/3, or 2.67 ohms. That's the math, but we really don't know what the actual real world result will be at any instant, since that depends on what the impedances of the two speakers would be at the frequency being played at that instant and we have no M60 impedance curve available, apparently.

Having said all that, don't worry about it. The 1909 doesn't know what the impedance of the speakers it's connected to is, just that it has to supply a certain voltage and current at each instant. If the short term current was extremely high because of an extremely low impedance(not the numbers we're talking about)the protective circuit would shut down immediately. If over a considerable time(which you wouldn't likely allow)the current caused overheating to build up, again the protective circuits would cause shut down without permanent damage.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 10:59 PM

 Quote:
The 1909 doesn't know what the impedance of the speakers it's connected to is

Can you imagine if they did?
Me <-- turns receiver on, leans back to relax and listen to the music
receiver <-- " Hey putz, turn me down!! Thats a 4Ohm load. I'm getting hot here..."
Posted by: fredk

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/06/09 11:01 PM

Don't forget to try an M60 as a center before you send one set back.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 05:20 AM

Dave, looks like everyone answered your question quite nicely \:\)
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 06:47 AM

 Originally Posted By: fredk

Me <-- turns receiver on, leans back to relax and listen to the music
receiver <-- " Hey putz, turn me down!! Thats a 4Ohm load. I'm getting hot here..."


"It's gettin' hot in here.... I'll take off all your lows..."
Posted by: Spoiler

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 06:57 AM


1909: "All your base are belong to us."
Posted by: Zimm

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 09:43 AM

 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Dave, your friend is correct at 3.4 ohms if the two parallel impedances are 6 and 8 ohms; David is correct at 2.67 ohms if the yatt, yatta, yatta, 1/4+1/8=1/X, 3/8=1/X, X=8/3, or 2.67 ohms. That's the math, but we really don't know what the actual real world result will be at any instant, since that depends on what the impedances of the two speakers would be at the frequency being played at that instant and we have no M60 impedance curve available, apparently.
Having said all that, blah, blah, blah, allow)the current caused overheating to build up, again the protective circuits would cause shut down without permanent damage.


Everything that guy said is Bull$^!+ ! Math? We don't need no stink'en Math.
The key is better speaker wire, that will fix all your concerns. ;\)
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 09:54 AM

Yep, God made different types of copper, cheap stuff and expensive stuff.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 01:41 PM

Yo Dave, you posted impressions yet? I seem to have missed that thread...
Posted by: Olderbutwiser

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 03:21 PM

Congrats Dave,
I'm looking forward to reading what your impressions are. Hey whatever you send back please route them through Yuma for just a few days first ;).
Posted by: Adrian

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 03:47 PM

Dave has either hit "Sonic Nirvana" or he opened the M80 box from the wrong end, trapped underneath..."I've fallen, and I can't get up!"

Someone get to him before he gnaws his arm off!!
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 04:43 PM

JP will now post "Nom nom nom nom".
Posted by: Adrian

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 04:46 PM

\:D \:D pass the salt please!
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/07/09 05:27 PM

OK all, I'm back, up for air. Funny it takes a lot longer to get things set up than I initially think... even with two of us. Remember, I'm slow, but I do poor work!
1) unboxing,
2) putting on spikes
3) removing spikes to install rubber feet (Jay I concur, spikes were less stable on my carpet)
4) wiring the speaker selector box
5) pulling gear to move to bottom shelf to make room for the VP150 on the top shelf (1" too wide to have components on each side <sigh> ;o)
6) pulling the in-wall side surrounds, making a temporary backing plate to mount QS8 brackets to.
7) run temporary back 7.1 wires across the floor to where the back QS8 (temporary) stands will be placed
8) manually set SPL on all speakers to 75dB with RS meter...
....FL 80's +4.0, 60's +5.5
....FR 80's +4.0, 60's +5.5
....CC VP150 0.0 (but I bumped to +2.0 while watching a movie)
....SL QS8 +4.5
....SR QS8 +4.5
....SBL V-52 +4.5 (old Bic V-52's still on back wall)
....SBR V-52 +4.0
....SW (3) -3.0 (Paradigm Servo-15a, (2) KLH 10" 120w)

Still to do:
a) Make temporary stands for back QS8's to move around backs to find best compromise of ceiling mount location
b) Mount QS8 back an connect wires
c) test back QS8 locations
d) remove one side surr. QS8 and re-install in-wall for comparison to QS8. (I was a bit surprised that I could hear the location of the QS8's on the sides. They may nor be AS localized as the direct firing in-walls, but I'll test to see... in a few days)
e) paint my 'DIY' QS8 ceiling brackets, them mount back QS8's (this week end?)

More listening to do over time for QS8 effect and locations (backs). I will report my initial impressions in my next post.(this one too long already...) This post is just to rationalize why my energy is low today. <must just sit down and watch movie. stop designing, figuring calculating, evaluating. shutting down processors for a few hours to actually relax and enjoy. OCD will be there when I finish relaxing...>
Posted by: davekro

My replies - 04/07/09 06:00 PM

* As Mark suggested before via PM, I have not taken the time to run Audyssey on the Axioms/1909, I've just manually set channel levels to 75dB with RS meter. (Distances were still good) All speakers (still) set to small (3 subs ;o).

1) Rick WID, JohnK- Low ohm load concern: not an issue. I did just realize this morning that the protection circuit was engaged for our A/B listening tests on fronts last night. :o( off now) Though, before getting the hang of turning OFF 'A' before turning ON 'B', did not hurt. ;\)
2) RickF-Pictures... careful what you ask for <too late>! \:\) I will have plenty of photos of all stages including building the back QS8 DIY brackets.
3) FredK, "receiver <-- " Hey putz, turn me down!! Thats a 4Ohm load. I'm getting hot here..." (glad I'm not the only one that inanimate objects talk to! \:D
4) FredK, "Don't forget to try an M60 as a center" I'm scared to! ;o) ...but I will. The VP150 has a much different sound (in my application. On shelf below 73" DLP, not enclosed, but there is are two wood panels directly behind it. Photo later.) I can see why (grunt?) kept lobbying for an M22 as a center IPO the VP150. I bumped the CC level up from 0.0 to +2.0dB for better dialog loudness. Hmmn. All spkrs are crossed at 80Hz, except the CC. I did not change from pre Axiom settings. Maybe changing CC to 80Hz as well might help?? I will do this before my (upcoming) relax period.
5) Charles: "Everything that guy said is Bull$^!+ ! Math? We don't need no stink'en Math. The key is better speaker wire, that will fix all your concerns. ;\)" Oh, I'm covered on wire. I have run 0000 AWG (.46") oxygen free wire through metal conduit, from the AVR to all speakers. The wife thinks the 1 1/2" conduit running through the living room is a problem. She had NO IDEA her glee from seeing the Klipsch Cornwalls leave the living room, might have a down side! \:D

(Oh yeh, that was a short post, Dave ;o)
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: My replies - 04/07/09 06:28 PM

 Quote:
I'm slow, but I do poor work!


But at least you're expensive, too.

I'm really looking forward to your listening review. It's not that I don't enjoy and appreciate the setup/engineering stuff, but it would be nice to see you relax \:\)

Keep in mind that the differences you perceive in the timbre of the VP150 are not necessarily a product of the speaker, but more likely from placement/positioning. The way I understand your setup, you probably don't have a lot of flexibility there, but it's worth trying a few things before providing grist to the insatiable "VP150 Weak Link" club.

I don't know why you WOULDN'T cross the VP150 at 80Hz.

Have fun. Post pictures. \:\)
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/07/09 08:41 PM

OK, I made you suffer through all that BS before getting to my initial impressions! ;\)

Like I said above, by mistake, the protection circuit, was 'ON', on the speaker switching box. (It is now off) When I turned it Off, the SPL went up 2.5dB. Meaning. with prot. cir. ON, while testing last night, the channel level to achieve 75dB was set to +6.5dB, with prot. cir. Off, ch level can be set to +4.0.

****** So the caveat on these initial impressions are with the PROTECTION CIRCUIT ON (from last night).****** AND, these are mine and my friends feelings of the sound in my room. We are not audiophiles and have a very limited audio vocabulary.

- Testing was done in Direct mode (just L& R fronts). No sub unless noted.
- when sub was included, I used 'CD Virtual' mode (the only mode I found on the 1909 the included just front L&R + sub)
- Speaker placement: 60's and 80's were next to each other side by side 1" apart at front. This 1" gap was 4' from Sound Stage Center (SSC). So the (centers of) outer set was spaced about 8' 9" apart. while inner pair was spaced at about 7'3" apart. Round one had 60's outside. Round two, their positions switched.
* Spkrs were toed in pointing at SSC 12' back (primary seat)
* Spkrs were ≈ 15-20" from front wall. The fronts of the outer speakers were 4" further from back wall to keep their grill surfaces even or in line.
* Distance from side walls of the '1" center gap' (between spkrs) was 7' on both sides. [note: LF spkr(s) has a wall to ceiling shelf 2.5' to their left. 'Outer' spkr is 5" forward of bookkshelf, 'inner' is 2" forward of BS (again, grills face equally towards SSC as if they combined as one spkr grill).
- Switching from 'A' to 'B'. One person sat SSC 12' back from SSC. The other operated the switch from just in front of TV, but near it to impact sound as little as possible.

The M60's sounded very good. The sound stage was focused in the center of the Sound Stage (SS). The mids and highs were more pronounced. The vocals were more pronounced. On good recordings (DS,Brothers in Arms, EC Unplugged), this was perceived as a plus. Vocals were clear and easily understood.(all comments contrast to the 'other M' being tested) Switching to 80's on same passages, vocals seemed more muted. We preferred the 60's here for vocals.

We guessed that the 'perceived' more forward, bright highs and mids, may have just been that the 60's did not have as powerful and deep of base reproduction, thus 'appearing' stronger on mids and highs. [note, my buddy, Steve, preferred the 60's with the sub engaged, when we did this later. (to engage sub, I used 'CD Virtual' mode, since it was the only mode I found on the 1909 that played the front L&R + sub)]

The M80's:
Over all we both clearly preferred the M80's. (large room 31'l x 23'w, over 6,500 cu ft.) Compared to the 60's Sound Stage being focused in the center, the 80's SS immediately upon switching, filled the entire SS from left to right. The sound was significantly fuller in this big space. As mentioned above, vocals seemed less pronounced than with the 60's, but the rest of the sound seemed far fuller and richer than the 60's. I will keep both pairs hooked up for further testing. Remember, by mistake, all the above was listened to last night with the speaker switch box's protection circuit 'ON'! (changing to 'OFF' this morning [as it will stay now], the SPL level went up 2.5dB.)

Misc. sound quality comments:
Boy do I get what people always say about poorly recorded CD' sounding bad! We did most of our critical listening with DS Brothers in Arms (dig. remastered), EC Unplugged and a few minutes of Dave M. & Tim R. Live at RC (it was late and we were hitting the wall). All was sounding nice with our various opinions on M80 vs. M60. When we got to a CD I had just bought, Best of Scorpions, Holy Crap! That M60 preferred for vocal clarity had the lead singer's voice shrill and piercing. I had to turn it off, fast. Then on to Black Sabbath/ Paranoid. Ooooh, that is a poor recording, Steve says. Maybe later on I'll experiment with different sound fields for those poor recordings.
Anyone have any suggestions on a sound field or other way they find helps with the poorer CD's short comings, especially rock?

Center VP150:
I was a little disappointed in not being able understand the dialog well enough with CC channel levels set match all others at 75dB on RS SPL meter. After a while, Steve said why not just bump the CC level up a bit. DUH! I changed the CC channel level from it's SPL meter setting of 0.00 to +2.0. That was better. I now wish I HAD ordered one M22 to try as a center! Julie and I nixed the idea, because there is not enough clearance in shelf under the TV, EVEN IF I removed the glass shelf. \:\( (OEM Mitsub. stand which looks the same as RickF has) Julie and I felt would not like a speaker sitting in front of the TV/stand combo. Now I'm thinking If it sounded night and day better, we may want to reconsider.

RickF, I believe you have the exact same stand and you do have a VP150 below your TV (Mits. 73"?). Does the following feel true for you in your set up?
--- When running the Denon test tones, the VP150 has a much different sound than both the 60's and 80's. I don't know if this contributes to my perception of the CC not being loud enough. [note; both Steve and I have some hearing loss. I have a hard time hearing conversation if spoken low. I actually can not hear crickets or the alarm on my digital watch on my wrist. (high frequencies I guess). The hearing loss may contribute. I will test with 'known good ears', Julie's, and report back later. \:\)
RickF, do you leave your CC channel level where Audyssey sets it? OH,maybe this CC issue will go away or subside after running Audyssey. Hmmmmn... maybe I will try running Audyssey before Julie gets home (if dog is quiet enough... in garage?? :o) VP150 is angled directly at the list. pos. ear ht.

QS8's as side surrounds: I was a bit surprised that the Q's did seem a bit localized. This may be from to high an expectation of not being able to hear that the sound was coming directly from the side. I'll have to pay attention if I hear the sound from up high (7'), where they are. (top of QS8 is 11" from ceiling) I have stared at them and it seems the sound is coming from them. As I relax and use the system going forward, I'll see if my perception changes. I just had read it was a night and day difference. When I feel like bothering, in several days maybe, I'll swap out one side Q and put back the in-wall (8" Kevlar woofer, 1" alum. tweeter) to see how the SL & SR compare. That should be a good test.

I don't know if today, I will get to building temporary stands (8' tall) to mount the back 7.1 QS8's.

Looks:
Both my wife and neighbor (lady), independently gushed over how good the speakers looked. I was pleasantly surprised. :o) To be honest, I was second guessing my Mansfield Beech choice and wondering if black might have been better. I am sure that because every one else loves them, I will too, after getting over my 'gotta make perfect choice' issues. \:D
Side note: boy did the boxes look super dirty and beaten up. I thought Fed Ex is awfully rough on packages! Then I guessed this was likely a second (or more?) trip for the packaging. I did order FO, so no problems from me if packaging is reused (I would if it was my business to keep costs down.)

Condition: Is very good. In looking VERY closely I could see at a few of the vinyl edges there were some imperfections. These are not noticeable from 1 foot away. I am very pleased with their fit and finish. One of the M80 grills has a strange 1" wide curving line running down the center of the black speaker cloth. Imagine a (humongous) snail trail down the center of the grill. Weird, but I know Brent will send along another M80 grill when I get around to contacting him, so no worries there.

EDIT: Relaxing now... here mr beer
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: My replies - 04/07/09 09:01 PM

One thing to consider, by having the speakers right next to each other this will affect their sound, mostly in the low frequencies. For example, bass can be changed or reinforced by what is around the speaker, like walls or other speakers.

I guess what I'm saying is that the speakers won't sound the same as soon as you move the other speaker out of the way, or change the position of the speaker in relation to the walls around it, this may account for why the the bass sounds different between the two.

Also, I have never heard of Virtual mode, I use "Stereo" or "Direct" modes when listening to music.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: My replies - 04/07/09 09:24 PM

Dave, I've quickly gone over your new posts and just a couple quick comments. Yes, Dean(crunch)has indicated his preference for a vertical center speaker and during the seven years I've been here I've pointed out their advantages numerous times.

Your difficulty with finding a mode for using the sub with the mains in 2-channel play shouldn't be, since the regular stereo mode(not direct)sends signals to the sub below the crossover set when the mains are set "small".

As far as making poorly recorded material sound less offensive, I found in the past that reducing the upper midrange/lower treble area around 3-6KHz(on a receiver with variable crossovers)helped somewhat. On your 1909, using the manual equalizer to drop that area a bit might help on some recordings. Since bad recordings sound worse the louder the playing level, the best cure may be to listen to them with the sound level set to about 30dB(assuming that your listening room noise floor is higher than that).
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: My replies - 04/07/09 09:28 PM

Man, that would have been SO MUCH easier to understand with pictures.

\:\)

Thanks, Dave. Nice job. +1 on Randy's comments about boundary effects, and about just finding the "Stereo" mode.

Cheers!
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 11:48 AM

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
One thing to consider, by having the speakers right next to each other this will affect their sound, mostly in the low frequencies. For example, bass can be changed or reinforced by what is around the speaker, like walls or other speakers.

I guess what I'm saying is that the speakers won't sound the same as soon as you move the other speaker out of the way, or change the position of the speaker in relation to the walls around it, this may account for why the the bass sounds different between the two.

Also, I have never heard of Virtual mode, I use "Stereo" or "Direct" modes when listening to music.


We did swap their orientation, but they were always 1" apart. Good point Randy. Soon I will move completely away, the speaker not in use, for a better representation of how each will sound on their own. I will do this after mounting the back QS8's on their temp. stands AND running Audyssey. Though for stereo testing Audyssey is not in play (correct?).

After our 2 ch Direct testing, we wanted to hear them with the sub included (no surrounds) for music. Turning the mode selection knob, I came across "CD Virtual". This is the only mode (1909) that showed the two fronts + sub in the right side of the display as being output (left showed 2 ch input). My neighbor, Tim, a drummer, thought the base was no where near the level he likes, or that you'd here at a live performance. It was certainly not nearly as pronounced as the LFE with movies. I just assumed it produced what it was fed. I maxed the Sub level from -3.0 to +12.0. Then even changed the crossovers from 80Hz to 100Hz, thinking the subs would handle more and produce more. He still thought base was lacking. We then tried Rock and Jazz modes. He preferred Jazz to Rock modes. We had been listening at about 82-85dB continuous (-20 vol. level). After he left, I reset to 80Hz xover, -3.0 sub level. When I cranked it louder to about 95dB (≈ -13 vol.), the bass drums were more pronounced. It sounded good to me. I'll get him back to hear at 95dB. (Audyssey was OFF for all 2 and 2.1 stereo listening)
Posted by: doormat

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 11:50 AM

If you go into the menu for "Direct mode" (on the 3808 it is under Manual Setup > Audio Setup > 2 Channel Direct/Stereo) there should be an option to include a sub.
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 12:32 PM

 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Yes, Dean has indicated his preference for a vertical center speaker and during the seven years I've been here I've pointed out their advantages numerous times.

I'll try an M60 as center as Fred suggested. I'm not sure what I can extrapolate to what an M22 as center might sound like.

 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Your difficulty with finding a mode for using the sub with the mains in 2-channel play shouldn't be, since the regular stereo mode(not direct)sends signals to the sub below the crossover set when the mains are set "small".

Thanks, I missed that! Stereo it is now to include sub. Any idea how 'Virtual' might differ from 'Stereo'?

 Originally Posted By: JohnK
As far as making poorly recorded material sound less offensive, I found in the past that reducing the upper midrange/lower treble area around 3-6KHz(on a receiver with variable crossovers)helped somewhat. On your 1909, using the manual equalizer to drop that area a bit might help on some recordings. Since bad recordings sound worse the louder the playing level, the best cure may be to listen to them with the sound level set to about 30dB(assuming that your listening room noise floor is higher than that).

I am not familiar with how to drop the 'mid lower treble area'. I am only familiar with adjusting the x-over for each pair (and CC/subs) of speakers. How would I do this?

-30 volume level produces ≈ 79dB (continuous) at the 12' listening position. That is ok, not rock out level, but if that is all one can 'stand' for poorer CD recording's, that will need to do.
Posted by: Zimm

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 12:37 PM

At some point, you have to compare the M80 to M60 without subs, at FULL RANGE. All this 80hz cut-off business is nice, but fact is, if you want to compare two speakers you have to let them do it on their own. I expect you are actually handicapping the M80 as it should go lower, but I'm curious.
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 12:42 PM

 Originally Posted By: doormat
If you go into the menu for "Direct mode" (on the 3808 it is under Manual Setup > Audio Setup > 2 Channel Direct/Stereo) there should be an option to include a sub.

Going there in the menu shows:
Setting: Basic
SW: Yes
Subwoofer mode: LFE
x-over: 80Hz
Distances: 12.8', 12.9'

So I am good there. Like JohnK mentioned, I was mistaken and had overlooked that 'Stereo' mode includes the sub and is the mode to use if I want 2 ch + sub.
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 12:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Man, that would have been SO MUCH easier to understand with pictures.


Tom,
Whine! Whine! Whine! OK, I'll go take some pictures now to shut you up! ;\)
Posted by: Adrian

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 12:48 PM

Agreed, Charles. Dave, if you're going to compare the two towers, you should definitely try them at full range w/o the sub initially, imo(after, test them with the sub). According to Axiom's specs, the 80s should go a little lower.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 01:20 PM

I felt they did go lower with my own experience but I also found vocals and the upper end to be more pronounced on the M80s vs. 60's.
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 02:08 PM

 Originally Posted By: Adrian
Agreed, Charles. Dave, if you're going to compare the two towers, you should definitely try them at full range w/o the sub initially, imo(after, test them with the sub). According to Axiom's specs, the 80s should go a little lower.

Adrian, buried in the looooooong posts above, that is exactly what we did. Yes, the 80's did go lower of course, and had a much wider deeper sound field. More testing when time allows.
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 02:16 PM

 Originally Posted By: jakewash
I felt they did go lower with my own experience but I also found vocals and the upper end to be more pronounced on the M80s vs. 60's.

We actually found mids/highs to be more pronounced with 60's, BUT, I need to redo all testing because the circuit protection was inadvertently left 'ON' by mistake. When protection was turned 'OFF', the dB level went up 2.5dB.
So above testing will be redone with protection OFF. \:\)
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 02:17 PM

pictures taken... loading now....
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 04:01 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zimm
At some point, you have to compare the M80 to M60 without subs, at FULL RANGE. All this 80hz cut-off business is nice, but fact is, if you want to compare two speakers you have to let them do it on their own. I expect you are actually handicapping the M80 as it should go lower, but I'm curious.

Charles,
Crap, I was assuming I was listening to 60/80's full range by listening in direct mode. Waaaah. I just went into menu for direct mode, changed from basic (which had sub on w/80Hz x-over...crap.) to Custom. In Custom I turned sub off. D'OH!

Thanks Charles for that catch. They are so many setting I have never adjusted before and don't know what affect what (but learning as I go with y'all's help. ;o).

Hmmmn.... Funny before posting this I was going to listen a bit at the new settings (Direct Mode SW off). I just realized the 1909's display on the right showed 2 ch (no sub), when I had been listening in 'Direct' mode before the (just now change)! Still shows same 2 ch output of course. I wonder if, even though the sub was not playing, if 'Direct' (Basic) actually did cut fronts off below 80Hz, or if all settings were somehow ignored? ?
Posted by: davekro

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 04:13 PM

I just listened to more ZZ Top in Texas (BD), which has plenty of base. I Direct Mode menu settings, I switched between 'Custom' (sub off) and 'Basic' (sub, yes, LFE, 80Hz). I went back and forth several times. I could hear no difference in the base between the two settings. I'd have to say, for some reason, the Direct Mode menu settings are ignored for some reason. Anyone familiar with these settings?
Posted by: doormat

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 04:25 PM

Have you tried LFE + Mains?
Posted by: davekro

Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 04:50 PM

Here is the PhotoBucket link to all the pics I took since the Axioms arrived, if you care to see more.
Dave's Axiom Pics, ver. 1.0


They ARRIVE !

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Gotta Love ZZ Top Live in Texas! This was a definite must buy for me.

M80's and M60's:

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VP150 center channel location:
I described earlier that test tones from the VP150 sounded much different then both the 80's and 60's. Also, for my ears, I needed to raise ch level from 0.0 to +2.0dB to hear movie dialogue well enough. I am curious if anyone knows if this location below TV could add to the 'too low for me' SPL CC? I doubt it because is pretty open and the VP is not ported anyway. (0.0 CC ch level was from manually setting SPL at list pos. to 75dB. CC angle has been adjusted to anlgle directly at ears at primary list. pos.)

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QS8 Side Surrounds:
These are temporarily mounted to plates inserted into old in-wall speaker frames.

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Subs: (1) Paradigm Servo-15a (2) KLH 10"
[had the KLH's before I knew what a real sub was. ;\)
The two subs shown are directly left and right of listening area, which gave the best bass.

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Billy and Dusty... tooooo coooool! Gotta love them Cheap Sunglasses! ! !
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After I get time to build the temporary stands for the 7.1 backs, I will then post a few more pics. I won't bother to runn Audyssey probably until the 8's in back are in place.
(sorry for the band width suck)

Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 04:56 PM

It's pretty typical for different speakers to sound very different with pink noise. I wouldn't necessarily take that as an indicator.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 05:13 PM

What Ken said.

Lookit all those boxes! Dang!

NICE PICTURES! Thank You! You did not seriously think that was going to "shut me up" did you? \:\)

What the hell is that thing sitting next to the Paradigm sub with the leaf on its head?!?!

You guys can't seriously tell me that the M60's don't look better than the M80's with the grills on. No contest \:\)

I'm pretty unconvinced that the placement of the KLH sub is optimal.

Beautiful room, Dave!
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 05:22 PM

The M60s might look better, but the M80s look bigger. Neener.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 05:41 PM

Ten points to the person who can - without the assistance of the interwebs - name the TV series on which Billy Gibbons made two cameo appearances.
Posted by: medic8r

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 05:44 PM

X-Files?
Posted by: davekro

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 05:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle


Lookit all those boxes! Dang!

And those were the best looking sides! I bet them boxes could tell the travel channel a thing or two.;)

 Quote:
You did not seriously think that was going to "shut me up" did you?

Well, maybe just slow you down a bit. At least until your first beer (Oly ;\) ) anyway! Did you go into mourning when your local brewery closed down in Tumwater in '03? \:D \:D

 Quote:
What the hell is that thing sitting next to the Paradigm sub with the leaf on its head?!?!

That's our 10lb Toy Fox Terrier/ Affenpinscher/ + God knows what. Careful Tom, he'll rip your pinky off if you 'dis him! \:D

 Quote:
You guys can't seriously tell me that the M60's don't look better than the M80's with the grills on. No contest \:\)

I actually like the look of the shorter 60 in how it is about half the height of the TV. So while the 60's "have a very nice personality, I would prefer to just be friends!" \:D


 Quote:
I'm pretty unconvinced that the placement of the KLH sub is optimal.
Come on over. I'll show you. What's a 12 1/2 hour drive to a guy like you? ;\)

 Quote:
Beautiful room, Dave!

Thanks
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 05:46 PM

Dave, given that first picture, I think you need to keep all of them.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 05:49 PM

Looking good Dave!
Posted by: mistico

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 06:26 PM

Looking forward to the comparison with speaker in true full range mode.
I know others said it already, but you need to go into the receiver settings and set subwoofer or LFE to "none" or whatever the equivalent is on the 1909. If you LFE configured and you just trun the sub off, you're missing out on the lower frequencies.

Nice set of speakers \:\)
Posted by: fredk

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 09:26 PM

Looking good Dave!

 Quote:
You guys can't seriously tell me that the M60's don't look better than the M80's with the grills on. No contest

Say, there are 60s in that picture. I missed that while admiring those beautifull M80s.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: My replies - 04/08/09 09:34 PM

Dave, my attempt at humor/sarcasm was missed: I didn't say -30 on the volume control, I said 30dB. Since the noise floor in even a quiet room at home is over 30dB, the sound would be inaudible and your problem would be solved.

A less drastic suggestion that I mentioned is seeing if applying a little upper midrange/lower treble equalization to just the offensive discs would help. Your 1909 has a manual equalizer which can be used as an alternative to(not a modification of) the Audyssey equalization. One of the available frequencies is 4KHz, so you might try 4-5dB of cut there and select the manual equalizer for those discs.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/08/09 09:35 PM

I can add one thing regarding the m60's and m80's. In my past auditions, many have commented that I had my subs still on, when in fact the 60's and 80's were set to Large, and sub set to none.
Posted by: JonHan

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/09/09 07:43 AM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Ten points to the person who can - without the assistance of the interwebs - name the TV series on which Billy Gibbons made two cameo appearances.


Bones.
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/09/09 08:50 AM

Dammit Jon, I'm a doctor, not a trivia expert!
Posted by: Zimm

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/09/09 11:49 AM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Ten points to the person who can - without the assistance of the interwebs - name the TV series on which Billy Gibbons made two cameo appearances.


The clearly DRUNK squirrel (or feral chipmunk) wins the award for most aggressive hijacking of the year. Wow, I have whiplash from that topic change.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/09/09 02:08 PM

Ten points for JonHan!

Where's my trophy for the threadjacking? \:\)
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/09/09 03:06 PM

The squirrel appears to be drinking it now.
Posted by: Rock_Head

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/09/09 07:22 PM

That looks like a pint of Guinness \:\)
Posted by: davekro

Pictures, second batch. More observations. - 04/11/09 02:51 PM

1) Today's pictures first, 'cuz, gosh darn it, people like 'em. ;\)
All Pictures
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M60s moved away so M80's sound is not affected by their proximity. M80s are spaced 8 1/2' apart.

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QS8 7.1 backs, view from front on temporary stands. In this first test location, Q's are:
- 12' apart
- 5' behind primary listening position (Randy, Rick and others with back wall far behind 7.1 ceiling mounted Q's... What distance behind the primary listening position and how far apart are your back Q's mounted? )
- 10" from ceiling
- not tilted

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QS8 stands, side view. Hey, maybe I won't ceiling mount the back Q's. Maybe I should just slap a maple stain on the stands and call them a 'feature'. \:D I think Julie would approve. Ha, Ha!

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2) Late last night after getting the stands completed, mounting/wiring the Q's and placing them in their first test position, I ran Audyssey on the new Axioms for the first time.

I was blown away! The surround sound for ZZ Top and The Dark Knight BD's was amazing after Audyssey and now with Q's 5' behind list. pos. instead of small bookshelfs 16' away on back wall! ! ! To repeat what I had said before, IMO, in a very large space (31'x23'x 9' in my case), the M80s do a noticeably better job than the M60s. The sound stage is much fuller, richer and deeper with the M80's.

3) Interesting outcome on crossovers that Audyssey set:
- FL +7.0, large/40Hz (I changed to small/80hZ)
- FR +7.0, large/40Hz (I changed to small/80hZ)
- CC +3.5, 80Hz (good)
- SW +1.0 (cool!) LFE/80Hz (from my manual settings)
- SL +6.5, 90Hz (I changed to 80hZ)
- SR +6.5, 90Hz (I changed to 80hZ)
-SBL +6.0, 150Hz (I changed to 80hZ)
-SBR +5.0, 150Hz (I changed to 80hZ)

4) The SPL of the Audyssey 'boinks' (test tones) for all speakers was between 62-65dB on the RS SPL meter at the 12' primary list. pos. Does Audyssey increases ch. levels to get SPL to 75dB? Is that why most ch. levels are set +6 to +7?
Also, I was puzzled that the ch. levels set for the far more efficient (95dB) Axioms was .5 to 1.0 higher than the 90dB sensitivity Bic V-52's (these were at FL,CC,FR,SBL,SBR)!
Posted by: davekro

Next to decide/ test. (Alan, any comments? :) - 04/11/09 03:38 PM

[WARNING: If you dislike over analyzing information... "Move Along! Nothing to see here."]
But if you major in 'too much (analysis) is never enough!' read on. Charles, come on in. The water is warm, just how you like it.


Back 7.1 QS8'S
The next things for me to decide on is if I should tilt my back QS8's slightly. Also, any recommendation on either moving Q's any further than 5' behind the primary list. pos. -OR- altering the 12' apart spacing? (fronts are 8 1/2' apart, SL & SR are 23' apart) At 12' apart the backs are ≈ in line with the outside ends of the couch seating positions.

Alan, I know the QS8's are VERY forgiving in their location, but would you have a recommendation on distance behind list. pos. and spacing apart, in my large room?

On, 'to tilt or not to tilt'... My non scientific WAG might think that tilting Q's down a few degrees might:
- let tweeters reflect off side walls down to the ear level as opposed to reflecting around mostly in the upper part of the room. (no idea if much of the highs would actually stay up there!)
- top driver. Rather than reflecting straight off the ceiling, would a slight tilt forward cause more of that drivers reflected sound from ceiling to go more directly to the listening pos.?
- bottom driver. It would be directed slightly back away from the list. area, so I'd guess most of it's sound would be dissipated. But not much, if at all more than it firing directly down to the (hardwood) floor??

I am thinking the best chance I have at trying to hear any subtle differences between 1' foot or so moves of the back Q's would be to pull the banana plugs for all speakers from the1909, except SBL & SBR, them play a good surround BD like Wall-E that engages the surrounds a lot. Any other ideas on how to demo different back Q locations gladly accepted. \:\)

OCD in full gear!
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/11/09 04:20 PM

 Originally Posted By: RickF
Congrats Dave ... you know the drill regarding new digs, pictures and posting. ;\)

What'r you doing, keeping whichever set of speakers you fancy and sending the others back, regarding the 80s and 60s?


Yes, I will be sending back the one's that I do not feel work as well in my room. (the M60's)
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/11/09 05:47 PM

Dave, I have nothing helpful to offer, but wanted to thank and congratulate you for doing a great job with analysis and documentation. I think your journey will really help other people.

Even if you chose the wrong mains. \:\)

I had a similar occurrence with Audyssey and the QS8's (a pretty high xover point). Weird.

Will you be using the Ceiling FMB for the QS8's? My inclination would be to use that method AND to angle them a bit.

Have a fun weekend!
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/11/09 05:54 PM

Dave, I don't believe it is Audyssey that sets the crossovers, it is the receiver. They now use a standard 40hz as the determination point I believe, which is why the 80's came out large. Audyssey recommends changing them to small, but not neccesarily all to 80hz.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/11/09 06:16 PM

...and with an M60 center?
Posted by: dewd

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/11/09 06:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Dave, I don't believe it is Audyssey that sets the crossovers, it is the receiver. They now use a standard 40hz as the determination point I believe, which is why the 80's came out large. Audyssey recommends changing them to small, but not neccesarily all to 80hz.


To add to this, Audyssey measures the response of the speakers in your room. If you change them from 150 hz down to 80 hz, you could potentially be missing parts of the range in between. It is safe to adjust up, but not down.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/11/09 06:53 PM

True Dave, I forgot about Chris mentioning that on AVS. \:\)

Hey, just checked your website, looks like the pictures are not loading? Also, I just started a thread in the technical area about considering a new Onkyo, if you have any feedback that would be great.. \:\)
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/11/09 07:45 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle

Even if you chose the wrong mains. \:\)

LOL! ;\)

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I had a similar occurrence with Audyssey and the QS8's (a pretty high xover point). Weird.

So did you change them to 80 Hz? I vaguely remember reading it's OK to manually 'raise' x-overs, but that if you 'lower' them, Audessy does not control that range (like 80Hz - 150Hz on my back QS8's. Anyone confirm or contradict this?

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Will you be using the Ceiling FMB for the QS8's? My inclination would be to use that method AND to angle them a bit.

No FMB's for my ceiling mount application. I want more space than the ceiling clearance FMB's allow (2" not tilted, 3-4" tilted). I am creating my own DIY brackets. I'll post photos when I get into making them. Are your backs tilted? Are your HT pics up on Axiom?

You have a good week end as well.

Cheers
Posted by: davekro

HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! - 04/11/09 07:55 PM

 Originally Posted By: dewd
It is safe to adjust up, but not down.

D'OH ! ! ! I should have read down two posts before replying and asking this question. Thanks for confirming my poor memory.

So why in the heck did my old 5 1/4" driver Bic America V52's as backs way on the back wall always get set to 80Hz by Audyssey (and, Randy, when I run Audyssey the crossover points for each pair of speakers & center are set. Maybe it is the 1909, but to me, it happens when I run Audyssey ;o) and the QS8's get set to 150Hz?? Audyssey must not be hearing the up and down firing drivers of the Q's is the only explanation I can guess. HEY, maybe this is the way I can determine the best angle for my back QS8's! play with angle until the (top only) driver(s) raises the Audyssey set crossover point! I'll try this. Now I just need to devise a way to add an adjustable tilt on my temporary stands.

What are people doing about Audyssey set high x-overs?
What x-overs are your side and back QS8's set to by Audyssey?
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! - 04/11/09 08:18 PM

In reading the Audyssey thread on AVS, I'm pretty sure Chris from Audyssey says the speaker "small" or "large" setting and crossover settings are determined by the receiver, not Audyssey.

I've also read that when your speakers are very high, like you have them, it might cause strange settings. Have you followed the setup guide posted over at AVS's thread?
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! - 04/11/09 08:29 PM

It does appear Audyssey sets the appropriate crossover frequency, but does not determine the "size" of the speaker. My guess is your results may have to do with placement of the speakers within your room, acoustic properties of your room, or where you had the mic in relation to the speakers. Your rear Qs8's are just floating in space with no wall behind them, that may have something to do with it, not sure.

From the Audyssey Website:

Why does Audyssey set my speakers to Large (or Small) when I know they are not?

MultEQ does not set the speakers to Large or Small. This is a decision made by each individual AVR manufacturer and each uses a different speaker roll-off frequency to make this decision. Audyssey recommends the decision should be made using 40 Hz as the roll- off frequency. That is to say, if a speaker is found to roll-off below 40 Hz it should be called Large and all other speakers should be called Small.

If your AVR manufacturer sets your speakers to Large then all content below the crossover frequency is lost as it is not redirected to the subwoofer. Audyssey recommends changing the speaker setting to Small manually after the calibration is finished.

During automatic set-up MultEQ first finds how many loudspeakers are connected in the system, then determines the loudspeaker type (satellite or subwoofer), checks the absolute polarity of each channel, and identifies the optimum crossover frequency for each loudspeaker and the subwoofer(s). After that it calculates the distance between each loudspeaker and the first microphone position in order to automatically sets the appropriate delays. Finally, it identifies any level differences among the loudspeakers and automatically sets the trims.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! - 04/11/09 10:57 PM

The difference between the frequency which is sent to the sub because of the crossover setting and the frequency which is subject to the Audyssey equalization should be kept in mind. For example, if a "small" speaker has its crossover which was set at 120Hz during auto-calibration manually changed to 80Hz, the frequencies from 80Hz to 120Hz aren't lost, but stay with the speaker rather than being sent to the sub. The separate factor of the Audyssey equalization couldn't operate below 120Hz for that speaker because Audyssey only equalized it down to 120Hz(and manually changing it to 80Hz doesn't add equalization down to that frequency). This lack of equalization for those frequencies may or may not have any audible effect.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! - 04/11/09 11:36 PM

Audyssey recommends 40hz as the determination if a speaker should be small or large, this is the criteria then used by the receiver manufacturers (Denon, NAD, Onkyo, etc.) which then set the speakers size setting during the setup. This is followed by Audyssey setting the appropriate crossover for each speaker. Marantz is the only company that still has not come onboard like the other Audyssey enabled products, and they still use 80hz for the small/large determination. In these cases you will have to manually change the speakers setting to small.

Dave, below is a response Chris from Audyssey gave another person about lowering the crossover point Audyssey finds.

"If you lower the crossover then you won't be getting any MultEQ correction below the rolloff point that was found. MultEQ stops correcting below that point to avoid overboosting below the 3 dB point of the speaker (as it measures in your room)."
Posted by: dewd

Re: HIgh x-over set by Audyssey for back Q's wahh! - 04/11/09 11:43 PM

 Originally Posted By: davekro

So why in the heck did my old 5 1/4" driver Bic America V52's as backs way on the back wall always get set to 80Hz by Audyssey (and, Randy, when I run Audyssey the crossover points for each pair of speakers & center are set. Maybe it is the 1909, but to me, it happens when I run Audyssey ;o) and the QS8's get set to 150Hz?? Audyssey must not be hearing the up and down firing drivers of the Q's is the only explanation I can guess. HEY, maybe this is the way I can determine the best angle for my back QS8's! play with angle until the (top only) driver(s) raises the Audyssey set crossover point! I'll try this. Now I just need to devise a way to add an adjustable tilt on my temporary stands.

What are people doing about Audyssey set high x-overs?
What x-overs are your side and back QS8's set to by Audyssey?


Because the speakers were "on the back wall", which boosted the lows. My QS8's are set for 90 hz on the sides and 120 hz in the back. It is all about rooms and placement....
Posted by: dewd

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/11/09 11:47 PM

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
True Dave, I forgot about Chris mentioning that on AVS. \:\)

Hey, just checked your website, looks like the pictures are not loading? Also, I just started a thread in the technical area about considering a new Onkyo, if you have any feedback that would be great.. \:\)


I did see your thread earlier, but I can't really add anything constructive since I have M60's. Yes, my website could stand some TLC.
Posted by: Captain4105

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/12/09 02:12 AM

All this techno talk regarding Audyssey and the initial setup confuses a simple man like me. In an earlier post didn't you show a picture of the Denon manual Dave? My gosh, I was initially looking to buy the 2309 but picture scared me. Together with the reports of a poor performing remote and other complexities I would now rather another recommendation for a simpler surround receiver for what I think I may purchase...the M60's. My room is much smaller than Dave's about 2100 Cu ft. (it's a bedroom). Does anyone think the M80's to have a significant advantage over and against the M60's in my medium sized room? It may be hard enough to squeeze in the 60's. The 80's would certainly require some furniture removal, but it could be done and will be if indeed the 80's are judged by me to be superior. I am not one who wants to test things out and return items. I hope to make a decision based on these posts. I have a sub and will use the set up mostly for music. So I guess I am asking two questions....a simpler surround receiver (for M60's) other than a Denon and which speaker's sound would be maximized most cost efficiently with a sub for classical and oldies from past 30 years. If this request seems redundant...well it is (this is rough decision for me to make). Thanks...Lee
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/12/09 02:31 AM

The M80s are only a couple inches deeper and taller than the M60's, if you have room for the 60, I would bet the 80s would fit just as easily.

Going with the M80 in any size room you still have the benefit of the better low end and detail they offer, IMO.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/12/09 08:14 AM

I would agree with Jay, though you really can't go wrong with either speaker.
Posted by: dewd

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/12/09 12:11 PM

Also, I believe it is safe to say that all modern receivers will be are "complicated". It is not just Denon.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/12/09 01:09 PM

On iPhone today. Will reply later. K e y. P a d...
S L. O
Posted by: davekro

Re: Pictures... first batch - 04/12/09 02:25 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk

Say, there are 60s in that picture. I missed that while admiring those beautiful M80s.


I cannot recall why I ordered two M60's to test out as a center channel??? ;\)

PS. Fred, I have yet to plug an M60 in to test as a center. To keep it there, I'd need to raise the 73" DLP andit's stand 12 - 18". Probably no big deal to suspend from the ceiling. That way if I ever decided to get an M80 center, it would be easy to just shorten large suspension chains! \:D

EDIT: I get to use sister-in-laws lap top for a while. sweeeet! <he says in his best Cartman impression...>
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/13/09 10:17 PM

Lee,
Do not be scared off by the Denon manual. It is more of a running joke over on AVS forums. There is excellent support over there for setting up the Denons. IMHO, all newer AVR's are hard to understand by mere mortals. ;\) In your sized room, with a sub, you should be happy with the M60's. In my large room, I felt the M80's did a better job of pushing more air to fill my space and hence sound fuller. YMMV.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/13/09 11:28 PM

I believe tilting the back QS8's so that the top woofer reflection goes directly to the ear ht at list. pos. will be good. This makes tweeters at a good angle to ears as well.

Also, I thought I had a reason why the back QS8's were crossed over at 150Hz by Audyssey, and I was wrong! :o(
I thought that because the Qs were vertical, the woofers were not 'getting to' the Aud. Mic. Well, I shot that theory out of the water. I rigged the Q's on my stands so the 5 1/4" woofers were pointing directly at the #1 Listening position (where mic was), ran the full 6 position Audyssey and STILL they were set by the Denon 1909 to x-over at 150Hz! ! ! crap! I HAD hoped, that just angling the woofers forward would be enough to lower the xover point quite a bit. I wanted to see what the max the x-over could be lowered by the direct firing woofer. Sheitzty... zippo. Oh well, I will leave it at 150 x-over for now. Sides crossed over at 90Hz, not 80 Hz. wahh. Beer kicking in... can no longer concentrate. must just enjoy HT now! ;o)
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/13/09 11:35 PM

Dave, my guess is it has to do with the location of the rear Q's compared to the side Q's. Also, the room characteristics may be playing a role. If I remember, your ceiling is vaulted and bass frequencies like to collect in corners where two walls meet. Also, aren't they higher than the side surrounds? Also, the side surrounds are being reinforced by the side walls/ceiling, whereas the back surrounds are all open behind them...

If I ever make a decision and get the 3808, then I can see how it treats my surrounds. \:\) Having two rows of seating, I am unsure where to place the mic for 8 positions, but I'd figure that out to create that bubble of sound. \:\)
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/14/09 12:47 PM

Hmmmmmn... I wonder if having the back Q's 10" (as oppoped to 2" - 4") from ceiling (also with no walls around as you point out Randy) would further negatively affect lower freq. output? Randy, what does your Denon set your rear x-overs at, after running Audyssey? Others with ceiling mount rears (or sides) with walls very far away from speaker... what does your auto set up set these speakers at?

I've been told I can manually set EQ to adjust rears to compensate. (NOT changing x-over from 150Hz to anything lower in x-over settings). My best guess is this is addressed on page 34 of the 1909 manual (EQ Customize), but I cannot understand what to do from what the, er, 'world class' manual (doesn't) say. ;\) Anyone know how to or if I SHOULD try to have backs receive frequencies down to say 80Hz? Maybe the fact that the Denon or Audyssey cannot 'hear' anything below 150Hz from the back Qs, means I should just leave the x-over at 150Hz and let the subs produce below 150Hz for signals sent to the back channels. Double Hmmmmn... seems I have answered my own question. Dude, let the sub do it... (is that right?)
Posted by: dewd

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/14/09 03:43 PM

If you manually EQ the speakers, Audyssey is disengaged.

I seriously would not worry too much about the 150 Hz crossover. My rears are crossed at 120 Hz and it has never been noticeable.

BTW - Audyssey found my sides (same QS8's) at 90 Hz. It is all about location....
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/14/09 04:01 PM

Dave(kpro), Audyssey was not even born yet when I got my 2805. My receiver only allows for ONE crossover point for all speakers. It does have a built in setup that finds distance, dB levels, and EQ. I've never used the EQ part as it made my Axioms sound bad, with to much midrange. The distance and dB levels are fairly accurate.

I know you placed the question on the Audyssey forum at AVS, so I'm sure Chris will respond. The Q's are rated around 90hz +/- 3dB, so in my opinion the 150hz is to high for the rears, as you know Audyssey was correct on the sides. The Q's can put out some potent bass, so hopefully it is a placement issue, and you can retest.

There have been others on the AVS forum that have found that they have had to slightly tilt the mic or elevate it some to get accurate readings for certain speakers.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/14/09 09:15 PM

Randy,
I am just starting to understand that LFE is a separate channel. So I believe When my 1909 sets the subs LFE at 80Hz, that dedicated channel sends what ever LFE content the source BD (HD Cable?) puts out for a given scene/ action on screen. You guys clarify if I don't have the next part correct. All frequencies for each channel below it's individually set x-over (meaning full range from the x-over freq. and down) will be sent to the sub, in addition to the LFE signal being sent independently to the sub when ever an LFE signal is present.

So in my case I changed my M80's from Large and being auto set to full range (I assume because no x-over was listed), to Small, 80Hz x-over.

After above manual change:
M80 fronts 80Hz
VP150 CC 80Hz
QS8 sides 90Hz
QS8 backs 150Hz
Sub LFE 80Hz

For the non LFE base, the 3 subs will reproduce all frequencies below the 80, 80, 90, 150Hz x-overs respectively.

Any x-over above 80Hz was wigging me out before. But shouldn't my Paradigm Servo 15a produce a very accurate reproduction of the back's low range up to 150Hz?
Posted by: dewd

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/14/09 10:11 PM

Set the LFE to at least 120 Hz. That is the highest frequency that should be in that channel (the .1). This is not a crossover, but rather a filter.

Everything else your sub plays is determined by the crossovers. In your setup, anything sent to the rear speakers below 150 Hz will be redirected to the sub (this not a brick wall, some below 150 Hz will play in the surrounds). Same thing for your other speakers. Anything below the crossover is sent to the sub.

Also, there probably won't be much lower bass in the back speakers. As I said before, mine are at 120 Hz and I've never been able to localize my sub. I would assume that I would if it was producing 120 Hz tones.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 01:47 AM

Dave,

Can you explain more why I should set the LFE to 120Hz (from 80Hz)?

1)My previous backs (5 1/4" direct firing woofer) were always set at 80Z by the 1909 and the sides to 60Hz (8"woofers).
I would set fronts to small, set all x-overs at 80Hz, LFE at 80 Hz.

2) With my current backs being set to 150Hz, why does the LFE need to change? Or, in your opinion, should the LFE be set for 1) above to 120hZ as well? Or, do you feel LFE should always be set to 120Hz.

I am now unclear again.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 02:56 AM

Dave, the setting of the LFE low-pass filter is relatively insignificant, whether it's at 80Hz or 120Hz. Theoretically, the separate(as you now understand)LFE channel which occasionally contains special low frequency effects during movies extends to 120Hz. However in practice the LFE channel contains little or no usable content above about 80Hz and most is well below that. A reason for possibly setting the LFE filter at lower than the maximum 120Hz is that some useless noise at the upper end might be minimized. Others say that the full 120Hz range should be set just in case something worthwhile is there. Your choice; I'd suggest leaving it at 80Hz.
Posted by: dewd

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 10:47 AM

 Originally Posted By: davekro
Dave,

Can you explain more why I should set the LFE to 120Hz (from 80Hz)?



The specification for the .1 channel is for frequencies up to 120 Hz. Check out the Dolby definition:

 Quote:
LFE Channel

Low frequency effects channel, dedicated to frequencies from 3 to 120 Hz (the ".1" channel, so designated because it corresponds to about 1/10 the full audible range).



http://www.dolby.com/resources/glossary/index3.html
Posted by: dewd

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 10:52 AM

 Originally Posted By: davekro

2) With my current backs being set to 150Hz, why does the LFE need to change? Or, in your opinion, should the LFE be set for 1) above to 120hZ as well? Or, do you feel LFE should always be set to 120Hz.

I am now unclear again.


Don't confuse the crossover with the LFE channel. They are completely separate things.

I suggest you leave the rears at 150 Hz, set the LFE to 120 Hz and listen to it for a few days.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 11:52 AM

Now I am wondering if QS8's are not the best back 7.1 speaker option for my particular situation? Way back when I was deciding on what speakers to pick, it seemed there was (mostly) a consensus here that QS8s were a significant improvement over direct firing for side surrounds. For 7.1 backs there was a debate over direct firing vs. radiant firing for backs.

Given my back speaker location of mid ceiling with back wall 11' away and side walls/cabinets 6' and 4' away respectively, yielding a 1909/Audyssey x-over point of 150Hz, is there a better choice?
1) Is the QS8's designed sound dispersion to my listening position diminished significantly by this location in my large room? Is only producing above 150Hz to my listening position evidence of that

2) Might a direct firing speaker work better in this application, like the M2? The M22 would be quite quite large, visually, mid ceiling in kitchen and dining room.

Does anyone on the forum have QS8's mounted mid ceiling, that also uses Audyssey for room EQ? (Randy does not use Audyssey)
Posted by: Zimm

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 12:05 PM

Why don't you set the rears at 80hz and see if it helps any. If not, then you know 150 is fine. I don't think changing to a direct drive will change the issue you are raising, but that is over my pay grade.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 12:12 PM

Charles, you get paid to do this? ! ?

I believe what Audyssey is telling me (doesn't Audyssey talk to you? ;o) is that what ever freq. below 150Hz the QS8 is putting out, it is not getting to my listening pos. due to my rooms dynamics. My next test will be to mount my old (M2 sized) backs in the same mid air position as Q's are now. When they were on the back wall, they got crossed at 80Hz. Trying them mid room should let me know if it is more (or all) due to the location or to the speaker type. Oh boy, more jury rig mounting to my 'custom' stands. After testing is complete, these custom stands will go up on Audiogon with other hi-end gear. \:D
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 12:15 PM

You could always put the M60s back there and see if you like the sound better. I would wager that you won't. C'mon, dude, you've got an extra pair of speakers lying around, use 'em!
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 12:20 PM

Dave, don't take Audyssey as infallible.

You're not really into that whole "relax and listen" thing, are you? \:\)
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 12:22 PM

Ken,

You are right. I should hook the M60's to my iMac at the other end of the room. They should sound way better than the 8" Logitecs there now!
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 12:25 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Dave, don't take Audyssey as infallible.

You're not really into that whole "relax and listen" thing, are you? \:\)


Tom,
I've never heard of this thing you speak of... "relax and listen". Is it some kind of new software or maybe a firmware upgrade to the 3808?
Posted by: dewd

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 12:57 PM

Wow Dave, I think you are really over complicating this... You are seriously not missing anything in the backs with that cross over. You could lower them to 80 Hz if it makes you feel better, but I bet the sound would not change.

I agree, "relax and listen" for a while. This will drive you crazy if you try to make it perfect.

*It's a good thing no one told you about REW (Room EQ Wizard) software. You could spend weeks tweaking each speaker with that.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 05:40 PM

Dave,
It's a condition I try to manage. On good days, the meds help a lot. \:D I thought I was bad until I went over to that banana plug speaker wire discussion. I'm feeling pretty normal now. ;\)

Zimm, how are your meds holding up today over on the 'wired' thread? ;\)

I have 3 weeks or so on the return policy, so I want to be able to confirm that the Qs are a significant (worth $500/pair) improvement over my old speakers. Or maybe if M2's might be a better fit in my room/ set up. So a testing I must do.

I just place my Bic V52's (M2 size and sim. specs) on the 8' stands AND tilted my wall mounted QS8's down 25. I am off to run Audyssey again. If the M2 sized bookshelf gets crossed at or near 150Hz, like the QS8s, then it is the location/ my room, not the speakers causing the (relatively) high x-over...
Back in a bit. \:\)
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 07:30 PM

[quote=davekro I just place my Bic V52's (M2 size and sim. specs) on the 8' stands (instead of the tilted QS8s) AND tilted my wall mounted QS8's down 25 (instaed of being mounted flat w/ t-brkt). [/quote]

A bit of a change to the x-overs set by the 1909 after getting the roll off freq's from Audyssey.
1) SL/SR from 90Hz to 110Hz
It seems being flush mounted yields a little lower freq. with the QS8s. The decision to tilt or not seems between a theoretical aiming advantage (tilted) vs. an actual lower freq. (20Hz. flat mounted in this test).

2) SBL/SBR from (QS8s tilted) 150Hz to (M2 'type' BShelf) 120Hz
30Hz lower freq. from the bookshelf than the QS8 mounted in the same position (mid ceiling) and tilted a similar amount.

I will listen to the system this way for a while to see if I can tell a difference between the back Qs and bookshelfs.
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Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 07:33 PM

So Audyssey found these new settings, or did you change them? I thought if you changed them downward it would disengage what Audyssey did?
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 07:48 PM

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
So Audyssey found these new settings.

Correct, after a full six position Audyssey calibration, these were the results. The only change I made was to make the M80 'Small' and x-over at 80Hz, as is the Audyssey recommendation.

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I thought if you changed them downward it would disengage what Audyssey did?

If 'I' were to have manually gone in and lowered any channels frequencies, the frequencies in between would not be controlled by Audyssey (which as stated, I did NOT do).
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 07:50 PM

 Originally Posted By: dewd
Wow Dave, I think you are really over complicating this...


Thanks.
It's a gift, really! \:\)
Posted by: Adrian

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/15/09 11:13 PM

Dave, the second piece of tape from the right is out 1/4 " in your picture.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 12:59 AM

I was hoping at the angle I took the photo, no one would notice. Good eye Adrian. It has been properly relocated. I'll not be that sloppy agaain! ;\)
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 10:14 AM

Have you tried sanding the 2x4s smooth?
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 10:47 AM

davekro,

I just have read the last 2 pages...

Have you tried not using audyssey equilization \:\) . More specifically resetting the processor on your AVR and manually re-entering just the calibration numbers audyssey provided previously (speaker/subs, distances etc). Then set all the speakers to small with crossovers set at 80 and go from there.

Posted by: Zimm

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 11:20 AM

 Originally Posted By: davekro
Dave,
Zimm, how are your meds holding up today over on the 'wired' thread? ;\)


Yes, the wire thread was a fun introduction to the group. I asked about mounting the Qs with banana plugs and got slow roasted over an open fire about all the hype in the audio industry. But, I have learned a good deal from the hosts of the roast since then - most of which will save me a great deal of money down the road. I still can't buy that a $300 AVR with 10% distortion at 11 watts sounds as good as the Axiom 500 clean-watt-per-every-imaginable-channel amp, but the K-twins are slowing beating the grasshopper into submission. Soon I'll have a 1985 Techniques AVR with 4 watts a channel hooked up to my speakers with coat hanger wire. Then I will be the master!
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 11:35 AM

4 WATTS??? Why so wasteful???
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 11:43 AM

Mark,
It's not up to 'Got Wood' standards, as Home Depot did not have maple 2x4's. I know, how boring. I used low class pine 2x4's. I have sanded them down now and stained the to perfectly match the maple cabinets. I apologize for offending everone's eyes and tastes by showing photos of my temporary stands in such horrid looking condition. I'll work harder to not fall below forum standards (yet again)... \:\(
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\:D
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 11:52 AM

 Quote:
fall below forum standards


We've upped our standards.

Up yours.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 12:45 PM

ROFLMAO!

That squirrel gets funnier the more he drinks!
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 02:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
 Quote:
fall below forum standards


We've upped our standards.

Up yours.



ROTHLMOA +1 That's a great one. I can see you have upped yours, and for all the world to see, no less. ;\)

Reminds me of a Halloween costume party I went to in Chico, CA when my little 'sis was attending CSU. It was in the early 80's when toxic shock syndrome was all over the news. One guy was dressed as a Rely tampon. On his costume it read: "We may not be #1, but we're 'up there'." \:D
Posted by: pmbuko

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 02:42 PM

 Quote:
ROTHLMOA

Rolling on the what, now?
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 03:21 PM

 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
 Quote:
ROTHLMOA

Rolling on the what, now?


Typo????
On the...
house? hottub?

Jeesh Peter, when did YOU get standards? ;\)
Posted by: PeterChenoweth

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 03:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zimm

I still can't buy that a $300 AVR with 10% distortion at 11 watts sounds as good as the Axiom 500 clean-watt-per-every-imaginable-channel amp, but the K-twins are slowing beating the grasshopper into submission.


I wouldn't and I don't. You don't have to listen to the K-twins. \:D ;\)

 Quote:

Soon I'll have a 1985 Techniques AVR with 4 watts a channel hooked up to my speakers with coat hanger wire. Then I will be the master!


Ahem.... someone beat you to it .
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/16/09 11:02 PM

Charles, you don't have to "buy" any wild claims. Study the basic principles of amplifier technology which have been well-established for many years and you'll understand that a typical well-designed $300 receiver with about 100 watts at about 0.1% distortion is what's great about the current audio scene, not multi-thousand dollar units.
Posted by: davekro

I finally made my DIY QS8 ceiling brackets - 04/17/09 01:20 AM

Well, I finally got around (almost) finishing my DIY QS8 brackets. Here are my home made brackets. All it took was some imagination, a sawsall, a big hammer and some paint. (One could add something to cover the threads and casting markings before painting, for a pro finish)

First I bought a galvanized flange with a 1/2" pipe thread, but decided to use a bigger one with 1" pipe thread which I adapted down to 1/2" pipe. I wanted a little bigger footprint on the ceiling, but any size would work. I'll shoot from the hip rate these brackets at 100 lbs. (or whatever two 5/16" x 2 1/2" lag bolts into a 2x4 rafter will hold. That would be the weak link, if you can call it that.) \:\)

I bought a 2' piece of 1/2" galv. pipe, which was threaded on both ends intending to cut it in the middle leaving two pieces threaded on one end. I had no idea how long I wanted each pipe section. When I figured it out today, each was cut to 6" long.

I tried to squish flat in my vise, No go. Out came the small hand held sledge and I flattened the pipe about 3/4 of the way up towards the threaded end. I left enough space in flattened pipe so the speaker wire could pass through the flat end of the brkt, up through the pipe, them through the ceiling (hole angled off sharply to mostly miss the 2x4 rafter). I still need to drill 1/4" holes for the QS8s an inch or so from the end of the flat part. I wrapped the round end with a towel and put it in a vise. Then used a larger pipe to bend the flat portion to 27. Lastly, I evened out the mating surface on the grinder so it would be perfectly flush to speaker.

Obviously the pipe could extend down at far as you like and bend or not bend the end. Tomorrow I will tighten the bushing to seat it further down in the base. Then I will give them a few coats of white paint. The pipe will thread in just before hand tight. That way I can easily reach up and rotate the speakers 180 towards the back half of the room when we are there and want to listen to 7 ch stereo or what ever. Between the ceiling and the flange, I will sandwich in a thin coaster to protect the ceiling texture.

First step- materials I had already primed the flanges.
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The primered QS8 brackets with 27 bend to tilt Qs down toward listening position.
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The costs (from memory) were about.
flange ≈ $6.50
2' 1/2" galv. pipe nipple ≈ $3.00
1" to 1/2" galv bushing ≈ $3.50
So about $14 each not including paint which I had.

I'll be glad to get rid of the 8' towers! ;\)

PS. cross posted to Fab5's thread asking about QS8 ceiling brackets.
Posted by: davekro

Re: I finally made my DIY QS8 ceiling brackets - 04/17/09 02:25 AM

Oops, (Virginia) Peter caught me measuring my brackets to the bookshelf speakers currently on the stand. I was thinking it was for either speaker, but an inch longer (7") would have been a bit better for the pipe for the Q's. With the 6" pipe, I'll need to drill the 1/4" mounting hole 1" from the end, rather than 2" as I had been thinking. At the 27 tilt, the top/closest part of the woofer's rubber surround would be 4 1/2" from ceiling, while the front (lower) part of the rubber speaker surround would be 6 1/2" from the ceiling. I think that is OK.

The distance back from list. pos. is decided (7' where the rafter is! ;\) ).

I have not settled on how far apart to place the backs yet. Currently I have dropped the 12' spacing and thinking about somewhere between 8' and 9' apart.

I will need to listen to my DF backs then swap to Q's to see the difference.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: I finally made my DIY QS8 ceiling brackets - 04/17/09 06:45 AM

Lookin' great so far! Keep us apprised!
Posted by: davekro

Re: I finally made my DIY QS8 ceiling brackets - 04/17/09 08:10 PM

Today I drilled two 1/4" mounting holes for a small amount of height adjustment (1"). I also glued a thin piece of plastic to the bracket's matting surface, so I could adjust the horizontal position easily w/o marring the mounting surface on the QS8.

Out to put the white finish coat on now.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/21/09 09:58 AM

Edited:: Nevermind, I was a full page behind
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/22/09 12:32 AM

Yesterday I finally got the wire run through the attic crawling on my belly through insulation. True to my procrastinating nature, I did not get up there first thing in the morning, I waited until 2:00 pm. Lucky me, we are having seasonally hot weather yesterday and today lower to mid 90's, so it was 115 when I started and 119 when I finished. I spent about 20 mins. in a cold shower afterwords.

Here are some pics of the finished job.
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This does not look very different than the photos of the speakers on the 8' stands, But in person it sure as h#!! does! \:\)

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A view from the side.

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My DIY bracket at work. Hmmmmn, I know the brackets would hold the weight, maybe I should mount the M60's there to test as backs! \:D (just kidding, i wouldn't drill holes in 'em).

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We did a lot of outside the box thinking about what to try for backs once I decided the QS8's did not work there to my liking.
Scroll down. How about this for a back 7.1 speaker? ;\)
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I mounted a VP150. \:\)

The sound did not fit for me, but it would 'look' impressive.


PS, Hey Randy, I finally figured out how to shrink the pics down on Photobucket! No more PITA scrolling back and forth to read SOB Dave's posts. hah!
Posted by: fredk

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/22/09 01:07 AM

Looks good Dave.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/22/09 01:57 AM

Thanks Fred.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/22/09 05:29 AM

I like the look of the direct radiaotrs mounted up high like that and they look to be far enough away to have pretty good dispersion so the benefits of the QS8s are nullified, IMO.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/23/09 01:52 AM

Actually, I felt the benefits of the Q's went away in that location. No back or side walls to realy yreflect off of. Back wall 11' away, side wall 7' away, backs 10' apart. It seemed the Q's did not project in this very large and wide open location.

I sure am loving the M80s and VP150 up front though. Sweeeet. :o)
Posted by: Zimm

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/23/09 01:01 PM

If you order white speakers you would likely not even notice them on the ceiling.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/23/09 01:26 PM

 Originally Posted By: Zimm
If you order white speakers you would likely not even notice them on the ceiling.


I actually almost painted these white, then decided to put them as is for a while. I will probably do a visual test by covering in white paper, to see how white speakers might look. I wonder if white speaker cloth is available. I'll Google that later. I also thought about ordering M2's (same size as these) in Beech to match fronts. I am thinking white to match ceiling and white grilled side in-wall speakers might be better. I'll try the white option first.
Posted by: davekro

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/23/09 01:29 PM

White speaker cloth.... of course there is. :o)
speaker cloth
Posted by: HAY

Re: Speakers just arrived! Question. - 04/25/09 01:15 AM

Axiom has the option as well..



Grilles