My trusty old Denon 1082/3802 passed away last night and my unbelievably compassionate wife has given me the green light to upgrade... however, I'm deeply afraid she may have second thoughts by the time I get home from work tonight, so I need some help FAST. Here's what I need:

- Untouched HDMI passthrough and switching
- All the latest HD audio codecs
- 7.1 or 7.2
- Good/great power (would prefer 115wpc or higher)
- Superior THD rating vs my old receiver

Here's my gear:
Panasonic AE3000U
Denon AVR-1082
VP150
M60 x2
QS8 x4
SVS PC12-Plus x2

... I'm sure there's more I need and would like to have, and normally I would take much more time to research, but this opportunity could disappear in a flash if I don't act today. Can anyone offer some good suggestions?

Denon 3808 from 6Ave.com

But, that doesn't have any of the new HD audio formats, right?

http://www.axiomaudio.com/sherwood_r772.html

http://www.axiomaudio.com/sherwood_r872.html

Either of these receivers would do your M60's justice. Axiom has bench tested these receivers by the way. They also come with Axiom's 5 year warranty which is a big bonus IMO.

Nevermind- I called Denon and confirmed that the 3808ci has got it all. it's confusing, though, that 6ave does not list the HD audio formats in its specs... wonder why. So, best place to buy, price-wise? 6ave? I've bought from them in the past and had no probs... Oh, and is there any reason I should consider the 2809ci over the 3808ci?

3808 has the gui, networking, more hdmi ins (and other types as well), I think it has a better version of audyssey, slightly more power plus lots of other stuff I am sure. I have a 3808 and absolutely love it.

I also ordered mine from 6ave back in nov of 07

Placed my order for the 3808ci 10min ago.


Thanks everyone!

My 3808 is in route from 6ave to Iowa right now, shipped yesterday. It has all the bells and whistles.

You're sad the 3808 is on enroute?

Make sure it's an authorized Denon dealer. Otherwise Denon will not honour there warranty.

http://ca.denon.com/UnauthorizedDealers.asp

They are. I verified it before buying my 3808 a few months ago...

Waaaaait a sec- 7.3? DEWD, that's sick!

I'm sad its not enroute to my place.

I'm sad that I have to wait until Friday for it to arrive. I noticed 6Ave has it marked UPS required signature. I'm guessing because of the $ ammount they are requiring a signature. UPS normally just leaves stuff on our step, we live in the country.

I might leave the guy a note, I work during the days, as do most people.

Don't remember who my 3808 was shipped through (prolly ups) but I specifically told them that I would come pick it up from the shipping center and not to take it to my house. They left it on my doorstep all day with no signature or anything... I was kinda pissed.

Just talked to a few of the other neighbors in our development. He gets out here late, usually after 5pm, so I should be home by 3:45 and be good to go, rock on.

Cool! You will love the 3808!

I always leave a note with my signature. I asked th UPS guy the last time I saw him. He said no problem leaving a 'signature required' package if there is a signed note.

Randy,
Leave a note for back up (take 2 mins and cost a piece of paper). If the regular route guy is sick that day, a new guy could run the route in a different order. If you had to wait until Monday, we'd all have to put up with an attitude ALL WEEKEND! Dude, leave a note for our sakes, please.

Randy, have you read through all the posts on setting up the 3808 on this forum and AVS? That should keep you busy till it arrives

I can't wait.... I'm sure I'll run Audyssey about 30 times this weekend, lol.

Our UPS guy normally shows up late in the afternoon, we are at the end of the route. I'll be home by 3pm now, so should be good...

Man, I usually obsess over decisions like this purchase for MONTHS before pulling the trigger... can't believe I'm actually gonna own this beast without having even fully read the manual front-to-back 100 times over. Thank jeebus for this community for steering me in the right direction so quickly.

Still, I'm totally gonna be up all night reading threads and that AWESOME set of 3808ci docs Ray3 hooked me up with... with no audio in my HT, I'll certainly have the time tonight!

Just wait till you see where we steer you next! Now close your eyes...

...and hold out your wallet. We'll take good care of you.

::Evil laughter::

Ok, what are the cheapest recommendations for a wireless/ethernet device so I can update the firmware on my reciever. I don't have an ethernet port on the AV room. Ray said he used a Wireless Bridge? I know there are ethernet over electrical as well, just need something cheap.

It is not quite as easy but I think u can update from the onscreen menu (no external display is required) so u could just take your avr up by your router and plug it right in and navigate thru the onscreen menu to do the update.

However, you will likely want to be able to use the internet radio feature or perhaps the network streaming on the 3808 so you will want to set up a connection to your computer and the internet. I use the linksys wireless gaming adapter: it only supports WEP security though, but you can buy a newer model with dual band wireless n and WPA for about 70 bucks. the one in the link is about half the price. I will say that I had a difficult time getting it all networked up with it though.... but now it works flawlessly.

http://www.amazon.com/Linksys-WGA54G-Wir...40523853&sr=8-1

I am using this wireless bridge. Since I was going through the trouble, I also picked up this switch to add more devices as time goes on.

BTW - if you run into signal strength problems, you can likely upgrade the antennae on your router.

I've got a HTPC right next to it, why can't I use that?

I think I"ll try just sharing the pc ethernet to the denon

Ya know, ya MIGHT have mentioned that a bit sooner!!!!!



OOOOhhh Boy - it's coming TOMORROW!!!!!

How are you proposing to share the ethernet from the HTPC?

From what my IT buddies tell me, all I have to do is turn on Sharing on the network adapter, just like in the old days when people created a network and used one pc to access the internet. If I turn on sharing, I believe the Denon will then be able to see the internet via my wireless connection on the HTPC. The Denons have their own MAC address,etc. I assume if DHCP is turned on it should work, at least that is what 3 people told me today.

Ah, your HTPC has a wireless card. That makes more sense.

Only time will tell if I can get this to work, but doesn't sound to bad. I just ran through a sharing wizard for my ethernet adapter, and it asked to use the wireless connection for internet access. Once activated, I think I just have to give the Denon a static IP address one octet higher than the LAN adapter. fun fun fun

(Thinking to myself, Hmmmm... I wonder if I sign that SirQuack or Randy P... I can't wait to try it out with my Axioms...)

Oh, did I think that "out loud"....

haha.

This networking stuff is driving my nuts. I think my problem is that my D-Link 4port resedential gateway, and my DSL router are conflicting and trying to give out the same IP Addresses. I probably have things setup wrong.

*snicker, snicker*

Do you have to use crossover cable instead of a patch cable when connecting two computers? (or a receiver and a computer, or a game console and a computer?) Maybe it isn't required if you are sharing connection to the net but I had to do that when sharing files from my computer to my original xbox console several years ago.

I think you may be right. Having two DHCP servers competing can cause a lot of weird problems.

I have Verizon DSL, and so I don't know if this applies to you or not. But I believe that you're going to want to put the DSL modem in its 'bridge' mode. That should shut down whatever network services the DSL modem is trying to provide, and will force it to just act just as a physical connection to your DSL provider. The trick is that you then configure the router with your DSL username/password & connection settings (PPPOE, usually). The router then handles creating the WAN connection through the modem. You then just use the router as the DHCP server, firewall, parental controls, etc.

I think you do have to use a crossover cable I've heard, how is that different than a patch cable, let me go look..hmmmmmmm, that is different.

Thanks Peter, this is going to be fun I can tell. One problem I have is I reset the DLink about a year ago when I was having IP conflicts, now I can't get into the config menu. I may try reinstalling the software that came with it...aarggg

The receiver is being delivered today and I would like to upgrade the firmware, unless it comes with the latest. I do want to get the Audyssey DV and EQ though...

Randy you can just hook it up directly to your internet connection and enter the menu, via the on board display, then run the update before anything is even connected. Once the update is done, about 75min. you can then move it to your HT and worry about how to conect it up from there, this will give you some time to get the wrinkles ironed out before the next update is released.

but what's steering them?

Randy, you may end up having to use the bridge instead.

Also, take a look at the notes I sent you. There is something in there (I think) about UPnP - you may need to turn t off.

Also, my personal experience has shown me that static IP addresses work better. I have 8 devices and have assigned all of them static IPs.

Thanks guys....Jay, right now my ethernet connections are not working for whatever reason, only the wireless modem, I don't believe it has an ethernet jack, I have to use my Dlink Resedential gateway...I'll figure something out, believe me.

I think I have to login to the Denon website to get the Dynamic EQ and Volume offer, and give them my MAC address or something..

heading home in 5 min. to get the Denon...I will be busy all night.

Sirquack, any/all feedback on how it was to set up would be kooo... mine was supposed to be here today, too, but they miscalculated the shipping time.

I found mine very easy to do the initial set up, about 15 minutes and it was playing in 6.1, it is the tweaking that becomes the fun/frustrating part.

I really like how we solved flip's original problem in the space of about 3 hours, but this thread continues to grow.

Sorry to hear that Flip. Mine arrived 20min. after I got home, wewww, and it is downloading updates. It already had 1.97 or something like that for firmware. I did a check and it said something about the feature pack being available since I already did my upgrade code.

I still have network issues with my router, so I unplugged the router from the DSL modem and plugged the receiver right into that ethernet port. WALLLLLLLAAAAAAAAA it started working right out of the box...

I'll have to worry about getting the DLink router playing nice with the modem at a later time.

So now it is doing a download, 39min, not sure if that is yet another newer firmware update, OR, maybe the Add New Feature, but I didn't select that option yet...

Just keep waiting, just keep waiting, reminds me of Nemo, Just keep swimming, just keep swimming.

DANG this thing seems a lot heavier than my 2805...

Now to go get beer for the long night of playing around...

Flip, my thoughts and prayers are with you...see you all in a bit.

I had forgotten how heavy the 3808 actually is until I had to take into the shop.

I hope you like the 3808 as much I like mine.

Here's something I need some advice on: what should I set my crossovers at? I've only really used 80hz all around, never having any lower option... gear in sig.

I have my m80's set to 60 hz, qs8's set to 90 hz, vp150 set to 80 hz, and lfe set at 90 hz. all speakers are set to small.

Also, I just checked all that by entering the ip address of my denon into windows explorer and checking the settings thru the network... pretty cool feature, and you can change settings from you computer, load and save settings files, ect.

I have to admit that's very cool. I wish all A/V gear had that.

I would try the M60s at 60hz and leave the others at 80hz. See how the M60s sound at 60 and if you think it sounded better with them at 80hz then set them back up to 80hz as well. There really is no right or wrong, just take some time, try out different crossovers and see how YOU like the way it sounds, this is all part of the fun of a home theater.

David,

The so called LFE setting for the sub that you see is not a crossover, manufacturers really should not call it that. It is a Low Pass filter that is only applied to the separate LFE track on DVDs and HD content. It doesn't have any effect on the content that is sent to your main channels. In any case, the LFE LPF should always be set to 120 Hz as there is no LFE above 120hz.

It should not be a variable setting available for tweaking, but for whatever reason some manufacturers haven't figured that out yet...

Hmmm.. what exactly is happening when it is set at a lower value?

I have to admit I never even bothered to look for this setting on my Integra. I found it was set to "80 Hz (THX)" so I bumped it to 120.

My statement came from researching the Audyssey thread. Chris (from Audyssey) along with Mr Holman (creator of THX), have often stated that there is NO crossover of a sub, this really is a Low Pass Filter. Why would you be crossing over the sub? If you think about it, you adjust the crossover knob on subs to either bypass or to the highest setting, usually 120hz.

The THX recommendation of 80hz, is for the other speakers to crossover to the sub channel, not the .x channel. He explains that this should be set to 120hz, as there is no LFE above that point. For whatever reason, some manufacturers have started to include this setting.

Dave, not sure, but I would image if you set it lower, maybe your restricting the Low Pass Filter from receiving frequencies above the 80hz point. They would be in the twilight zone.

Ha ha, SUCKER!

David, the separate LFE channel(this isn't bass redirected from "small" speakers)theoretically goes up to 120Hz, but in practice little or nothing useful is present over about 80Hz and most is much lower. Whether to set the LFE low-pass at 80Hz or 120Hz isn't really critical. Some want to set 120 in case something useful might be up there, others want to set 80 to mnimize any noise content that might be near 120Hz. I'd suggest 80Hz.

Ok, gonna admit some ignorance here... how does one determine what their speakers' crossover settings should be, based on manf's specs? I understand that ultimately it's preference, though.

John, since you support the THX recommendation of 80hz crossover for the satellite speakers in a 5.1 or 7.1 setup, I'm suprised you would not agree with the setting. Prof. Chris Kyriakakis and Prof. Tomlinson Holman (creator of THX) say that this is a LPF and should always be at 120hz. They go on to say that LFE material in movies goes up to 120hz, so I would think you would want to follow their recommendation and not limit your system.

I value your input on this stuff, but come on, Prof. Tomlinson has a pretty impressive resume.

Prof. Tomlinson Holman - Chief Engineer of Henry Kloss' Advent Corporation, founded Apt Corporation (maker of the Apt/Holman Preamplifier), and has written three books on audio. For his work at Lucasfilm Ltd in developing the THX Sound System, Holman won an Academy Award. He is currently professor of film sound at the USC School of Cinema & Television.

Prof. Chris Kyriakakis - is Associate Professor of Audio Signal Processing at the (USC) University of Southern California's Viterbi School of Engineering. He is founder and Director of USC Immersive Audio Laboratory, and Deputy Director of the Integrated Media Systems Center, a National Science Foundation research center. He has authored two books and more than 100 journal and conference publications.

Flip, when you run through the setup, Audyssey looks at your room environment's acoustics, and looks for the speakers -3dB point. 40hz is now the determination most receiver manufacturers use to determine the small/large setting. So speakers like the m80's will most likely be set to Large, when done with the setup. You still want to change this to small, and bump up the crossover from 40hz to 60 or 80hz, and let the sub do what it does best, below the crossover. Also, the filter resolutions in Audyssey are best suited for the sub channel to handle as well.

In my situation the Qs8's were set to 90hz crossover, which I will leave alone, and you never want to lower this setting. Audyssey only provides correction the the crossover points it determines for the speakers -3dB point, so if you lower the setting, those frequencies will not be managed or corrected.

If you don't use Audyssey, all of this doesn't matter. So far I am VERY impressed with what Audyssey offers. Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume are wonderful.

Yeah I still need to purchase the feature pack upgrade and re-run audyssey... as of now I do not have audyssey enabled.

Then it takes a coffee break, heads to Paris, learns another foreign language, tries to derive its own set of math rules, attempts converting between imperial and metric by first bouncing a balloon off the surface of Mars and losing it, then eventually remembers something about a home audio system and believes that any good randomly chosen setting should be a value related to pi in the least.

That's great, Chess.

David, you still have MultEQ don't you? Why not take advantage of improving your response in your room?

I had Audyssey set up before and wasn't really happy with the results... I tried it two separate times and decided that I liked it better without it. However, I think that when I try it again I will only use the mic on the main couch seats instead of including the love seat in the calibration since it is off axis.

Yes, you want to be "within" your speakers, you don't want to take measurements outside the box.

Also, if you have reclining chairs they can cause reflection problems and skew the results. I placed mine back in the recline position, and used a tripod to place the mic at ear level.

I think the results are great, the surrounds never sounded so good, and the front soundstage seems much better.

[quote=sirquack
Also, if you have reclining chairs they can cause reflection problems and skew the results. I placed mine back in the recline position, and used a tripod to place the mic at ear level.
[/quote]
Holy Crap Batman, I never thought of reclining the recliner! My main list. pos. on the couch is reclining. I might try reclining it for my next 5-10 Audyssey runs. ;o)

Which port do you squeeze through?

Actually, you want to 'be within' (2' L&R of ) your center VP150. That's even harder to 'squeeze thru'. All you have is the 1/4 mounting hole!

by the way Dave, Audyssey set my Q's to 90hz crossover all the way around the room. 3 of them have no wall right behind them, but they all are within 6" from the ceiling...

I noticed that. Very interesting how ours were set/heard by Audyssey so differently. I guess what they say that rooms really are a huge factor in the SQ one hears... is not BS after all! Thanks for the report on your settings. I guess my signature comes into play yet again.

In a way, its not surprising at all. Unless you are in a mostly sealed rectangular room, the accoustics are very complex. I bet room peaks/nulls and boundry effects can have a large impact on how Audyssey sees the speakers, even when averaging multiple positions.

Ok, ran through Audyssey last night and everything seems to be working alright. By the time I got done, it was too late to really run some demos, but that's all I'll be doing when I get home. I'm not sure about using Audyssey to calibrate my 2 subs that are non-collocated, though (since it would only be able to EQ one sub, and the other sub is along where the room opens up to our dining room.) I tried reading over the Audyssey thread on AVS, but I don't think I'm grasping it. Sirquack, everyone, can you give me a rough checklist of settings you went through when setting up your 3808ci?

You need to try and have your subs the same distance from the primary seat as possible. Mine are spaced out around the room about 12 ft from the main seat. If you follow the Audyssey setup guide written by a fellow AVS member, it talks about calibrating the subs prior to using Audyssey. They use 80dB, but I found that set my dB levels on my Denon to low. So I used 75dB.

If you have a Radio Shack SPL meter, just run the manual test tones in the Denon found under Speaker Setup. Turn only one of your subs on and calibrate it to 75dB's, phase set to 0, and turn the crossover knob on the subs to their highest setting, since the receiver will be doing the bass management. Then, turn the first sub off, and calibrate the second sub the same way. Then turn them both on, and your ready to calibrate with Audyssey.

Also, you don't want the seat backs of your couch or chairs to get in the way of the mic, they can cause reflections and skew the results. I reclined my seats back, and used a camera tripod to place the mic in the approx ear position for each measurement.

I have two rows of seating, so I ran the first measurement from the primary seat in the front row, 4-6 in the other seats, and the following 2 halfway between the two rows.

One trick I found in the setup guide is after the first measurement, go ahead and calculate and save the data. Then you can check to see where it set your dB levels for the sub channel. Then Denon has a -12 to +12dB swing for the levels, and you don't want to be at the extreem ends of this range, so you may have to adjust your volume(gain) on the subs and rerun until you get say + or - 3dB from the 0 position on the receiver.

After you are all done, for speakers set to Large, you want to change that to small. Also, for those channels set to large, you will have to bump up the crossover from 40hz to 60or80hz. Also the LFE crossover in the Denon (which is actually a low pass filter) this needs to be set to 120hz per Audyssey.

Flip,
Randy described the process well. You may want to consider trying to determine locations for your subs for better LFE at your primary list. pos. before running Audyssey. Not mandatory, if you are anxious to get to hearing your new HT! But it can save some additional Audyssey runs in the (near?) future.

This short two page thread gives a bit of info and you can also search 'sub crawl'. I actually did a reverse sub crawl, which I describe on page 2 of that thread.

Is that where you sit back in your recliner and have the wife crawl around, pushing the sub into different positions?

I still have an MX-700-shaped dent in the back of my head....

My wife actually enjoys moving (the sub) into different positions.

[EXPLETIVE DELETED] Wife [EXPLETIVE DELETED][EXPLETIVE DELETED][EXPLETIVE DELETED][EXPLETIVE DELETED][EXPLETIVE DELETED] American Idol [EXPLETIVE DELETED][EXPLETIVE DELETED][EXPLETIVE DELETED] "calibrate some other time" [EXPLETIVE DELETED][EXPLETIVE DELETED]


Anyway, might able to try it again tonight, but one thing that's been bugging me about the instructions in that AVS post- in Section III. Dual mono (LFE) Subwoofer Setup, line C. states "The above advice applies only to sealed rectangular rooms without any openings." Well, one of my subs sits right along the border of our dining room (11'opening.) In the past, I've matched the phase of both subs to the mains (FR Sub to Right Main, FL to Left Main), using the phase test tones in Avia. Not sure if that's right, but it seemed to make sense to me. Should I still follow all of the AVS instructions for Dual mono Subwoofer Setup in light of my non-sealed rectangular room?

...calibrate later! ? I feel your pain.

Don't take that document on AVS as the Bible for Audyssey. Another user put that togethor from the common questions that come up, it is not set in stone.

Most people do not have a sealed room, I don't either and have 3 subs. Prior to calibrating with Audyssey, I just turn the subs on one by one while the others are off and calibrate them (in my case to 70dB), then run Audyssey. After the first seat scan, you can go ahead and calculate and see what the receiver trim level was set for the sub, if it is to low you can raise the trim knobs on the sub and rerun things.

How about the way I had gone about individually calibrating the phase to each Main? Which method makes more sense to you?

I've got the AVIA II DVD and have tried those tests, but from all that I have read, it is best to just leave them at 0 phase, especially if they are up front near your mains.

Alrighty, I followed everyone's advice and ran through Audyssey per the instructions here and in the AVS thread. One thing that was reassuring was that I double-checked the results for all my speakers against my SPL meter and they were all spot-on. I wasn't happy with the level of my subs so I cranked it +2.5dB on the 3808ci, but other than that, pretty good. FINALLY, I popped in Hellboy II to experience true 7.1 and... wasn't all that impressed. I just think my ears need to adjust to the EQ before I can really appreciate the benefits of calibrated target curve. I'm going to run through a few Blu-ray demos when I get home tonight that I'm pretty familiar with and see how they sound (Batman: Dark Knight, Incredible Hulk, Spider-man 3) and my old U-571 DVD.

Side note- I corrected the LPF to 120hz, but a detail like that still has got me obsessing that there may be something I missed. Not to beat a dead horse, but is there anything else I should double-check in the 3808ci settings?

I think as long as you don't adjust the volume on the back of the sub, and use the receiver trim levels your ok. If you've done the feature pack upgrade, make sure Dynamic Volume is not turned on for normal movie watching during the day, it will compress the overall dynamic range some. The Denon has a bit of a learning curve, even the GUI.

When you took your measurements, the seat backs were not in the way were they? Also, if you have leather, you should throw a towel or blanket over the top, as the seats can cause reflections and skew the results.

I did the initial subs' calibration on the SVS gain dial at ~10:00 and the 3808's sub gain at 0. I ended up compensating for the sub along the opening to the dining room by dialing that sub's gain up to 12:00. After taking measurements, I adjusted the 3808's gain to +2.5dB (Audyssey took it back down to 0 and I then bumped it back to +2.5dB.) Once both subs were running together, I went for ~75-82dB total.



I made a makeshift tripod and the mic cleared the backs of the seats, so that should be good...



Ugh. My couch is leather. Tell me I don't have to do this all over again.

Well, if the mic was above the seats on your tripod you may be ok. I found that you don't have to run ALL 8 measurements to see what your settings will be. You can run the first measurement, then calculate and save, then go see what the distances, trim levels, etc. look like. That gives you the chance to adjust the sub before you do the final 6-8 measurements.