Fellow Axiomites!

I need help choosing a new television! It will be for general family viewing (cable/dvds/movies) for mostly evening and some daytime viewing. Viewing distance is approximately 11 feet. There isn't much ambient light and the night-time lighting isn't overly bright (mostly lit by wall sconces). It will be replacing a Sony 51 inch CRT rear project television (which will be re-located in our newly developed basement until such time that I can replace it with a 110" front projection screen).

Current budget is $3000-3500, but this needs to include a TV stand for ~$500. So $2500-$3000 for the television.

I want something close to 60" and am partial to plasma - seems to be better value at larger sizes and I'm partial to its picture quality.

I've narrowed my choices down to the following three.

- Samsung PN58B650 from E-Outlet Canada for $2500 (incl. shipping). This is a refurbished unit and is probably my top choice if it weren't refurbished.
- Samsung PN58B550 from Leons for $2479 (new television)
- LG 60PS70 from Future Shop, on sale for $2400 (new television).

I considered some Panasonics but I cannot find any G10 series and the V10 series are too expensive.

Any recommendations? Anyone with these televisions who care to comment?

I'm also interested in your thoughts on buying a refurbished television. E-Outlet Canada seems reputable but I've never dealt with them.

Thanks for your input and advice!

Bryan

P.S. I'm in Calgary (Canada) so these prices are Canadian and my initial choices are limited to availability in Calgary.

I myself like Sharp but Samsung makes some nice LCD/LED even better then Sharp. But I myself will not buy Samsung. Also never been a LG fan, I never heard anything bad from frinds that have them, I just did not like the way the frame/case looks.

Short story, bought a 50Inch Samsung, the LCD panel was off center by 1 maby 2mm. So took it back and got another, this time it had a bright red pixel, So I took it back. 3rd time I said F-this and just bought a sharp. Had 2-3 years and nothing has gone wrong.

On the other hand my brother in law has 1 Samung 52Inch LCD, and 1 60Inch (I think its 60) LCD/LED and he has no problems and will only buy Samsung.

On the refurbished television subject, I also would not buy one, for all you know it was a display model and has been on for for over 6 months. I know that LCD/Plasma last long but to me I would not take the chance. I know most places will still have warranty but you may have to pay for shipping if it brakes ect, ect.

Have a look around to see if you can fine a Pioneer KRP-600M. It was the last 60" Pioneer made, and might be able to be had for around $3000.

Bryan, can I tag along? I am in the market for a new TV and your choices are also at the top of my list. I am also considering the new LED LCD's.

Right now my favorite TV is the 63" Plasma Samsung, largest screen size and very good PQ. If I decide to drop down to 55-58" then the LED TVs seem to be winning the battle.

I have seen many of the sets you describe above and considering your budget in order to get the biggest plasma as possible the LG would be, by far, your best choice. I don't know whether or not you have been able to see the picture in comparison to the others, but the LG is no slouch. Unfortunately, there are only three companies left making plasmas(Panasonic,Samsung and LG) but when you get in to the larger monitors and has been said, Panasonic and Samsung are still too expensive, usually $4000 and up. Panasonic and Samsung have a number of models with different features so it requires further investigation to see what you are getting for your money. Some of the cheaper plasmas out there are only providing 1080i max in resolution(not 1080p), so you have to be careful what you are buying. The LED's in larger models are still pretty expensive and I don't see anyone making a large set(60" and up) other than Sharp who wants over $10,000 for their newer LED LCD televisions.

I have found the LGs to be somewhat dull in comparison to the Samsung and Panisonics, could just be an antiglare on the screen.

I have found the LGs to be somewhat dull in comparison to the Samsung and Panisonics, could just be an antiglare on the screen, but you are right the price point makes them hard to overlook.

I have found the LGs to be somewhat dull in comparison to the Samsung and Panisonics, could just be an antiglare on the screen, but you are right the price point makes them hard to overlook unless your cat prefers Sony.

Thought I'd throw this in here. I read a consumers report last year that rated the Samsung, Sony and Sharp LCDs as being the tops for reliability(more-or-less all equal) and the LG was next in second place. Personally, I like the Samsungs and with the new 240hz LEDs out now, I feel the writing is on the wall for plasmas as the one advantage the plasmas had were the refresh speeds but that gap keeps closing every year. Pricewise the cost of LCDs has come way down in the last 2-3 years which used to be another advantage to the plasmas. Each has their own advantages, and both technologies have been around for a while so you should be happy with either. Samsung and Sony, as you probably know, formed a partnership about five years ago to counter Sharp's LCD technology, reduce their costs and share technology.

The main advantage of a plasma over an LCD is the contrast ratio (second is the non-ghosting refresh, third is the viewing angle). Watch an LCD in a dark room next to a plasma (which you'll never see on a showroom floor), and the difference becomes obvious.

I had a Sony Wega CRT and was planning to immediately upgrade to a Pioneer plasma. So I gave away my TV, bought a stand, and then got hit with some unexpected bills. So I couldn't get the TV I wanted. I figured I'd settle for a cheaper LCD. I hated every minute of watching that set. The old CRT had much deeper blacks. Luckily in the time I was saving up again, the prices of plasma fell by half, and their, already incredible, black levels improved further. So the set I ended up with is beyond my expectations.

The newest LED backlit LCDs can dim the light behind the screen in zones to match the expected levels on screen. Which boosts their rated contrast ratio in tests, but in real world viewing you end up with blocky areas surrounding each part of the picture of different level. Anytime you're trying to use a bright light to shine through a surface and then using that same surface to try to block the light you're not going to get the same deep blacks as when the surface itself is generating the light.

Has anyone seen the new LED TVs? I have a Sony LCD that I really like. I do occaisionally notice that the blacks are not as deep and I did see what must have been "black crush" the other day. 99% of the time I do not notice and am perfectly happy. Just wondering what the new LEDs are like.

I based my comments on my observations of a Viewsonic LED backlit we have at work. It's a small screen but the separate zones are clearly visible when looking at photos. Maybe the newer large screen TVs have smaller zones, but I'd definitely try to see one in a dark room before forking over the cash.

Speaking of TV's... My church just remodeled the main auditorium area... they have two 16 foot by 9 foot LED screens. Simply Amazing. I might add that their new PA system is the best that I have ever heard.

If I may chime in... this has been thorn in my side recently!

Seems like for decades the only real improvements in TVs were, its bigger. Bigger, bigger and cheaper. Oh, we figured out how to make the front face flat. Yay.

Then all of a sudden in the last, what, 5 years.

480p, 720p, 1080i/720p, 1080p
DLP, Plasma, LCD, LED, OLED
60hz, 120hz, 180hz

Its as bad as computers!!!

My view at the moment is the same as my opinion on computers. Figure out what you need and get just that. Don't bother trying to "future proof" it.

Having said that I'm not an LG Fan. I've seen a number of their sets, including my current 37" 720p LCD, where it doesn't feed its resolution specs to a computer properly. I end up with a 1" black band along the bottom of my screen.

Just for me, if I were buying a TV today, I would get a 46ish 1080p that reports resolution to my laptop correctly. LCD or Plasma depends on whatever is cheaper.

Oh, and I don't like the 120/180hz thing. The contrast and motion is improved too much. Watched Batman Begins on the Father in Laws 180hz Sony... in some scenes you could almost tell where the set lighting was. Just doesn't look right.

How was that for a rant?

snazzed

Pretty rant-y.

the KRP-600M can be had for close to $2400 if you go through good online dealers. Those TVs still kick the crap out of any LCD I've seen. Father in law just got one of the Samsung LED's and my Pioneer 5020 blows it out of the water.

ummm.....I think the latest thing is 240 hz.

SEE! ITS CHANGED AGAIN! ALREADY!! GAH!!!



snazzed

DESTROY.

The refresh rate thing only applies to LCD TVs. It is their attempt at preventing motion blur and ghosting. Additionally, the refresh rate has nothing to do with the frame interpolation. It is just that the set makers figured rather than show the same frame a multiple of times, why not try to interpolate the motion between this frame and the next? The reason why they shouldn't is because it makes movies look very un-film-like. Luckily that can be turned off, while keeping the beneficial higher refresh.

Plasma TVs are based off of the same old phosphors which were used to standardize NTSC color. They're glow has a decay rate which is very well suited to the 60 Hz of normal material. The problem is at 24 Hz for film, the pixels have dimmed too much. So Pioneer does display the same film frame 3 times at 72 Hz to prevent flicker.

I have a Samsung UN40B6000 LCD panels with the lighting provided by LED's situated around the perimeter of screen.

While this configuration may be energy efficient, it does pose some unique problems.

Flashlighting and clouding can be BAD as some owners have found. Luckily my set is pretty good.

The set does turn off/dim the LED's in regions to help increase contrast. One problem with LED's on the perimeter is that you get a weird pulsating effect in the picture as you get a small bright object going across a dark background i.e. a shooting star moving across the screen will get brighter and dimmer as the set tries to maximize the contrast in different zones. This effect is resolved with the newer (and more expensive) sets that have LED's evenly distributed across the back of the panels.

Chris - you absolutely nailed why I chose a Panny plasma in your first paragraph.

Bryan - Since you don't appear to have a light control issue, I'd steer you to a plasma.

I have a 58" Panny (2.5 years) and I am thrilled with it. There is a direction you might not have considered. I ended up buying a consumer version (includes speakers and a tuner) because there wasn't a 58" professional monitor available then.

The professional version has no speakers or tuner (and no stand), so they end up saving noticeable $$$. The PQ, glass and electronics are the same in both types, but there is a bit more tweak-a-bility available on a professional model. Additionally, there is some flexibility in being able to change connection modules if desired. If you are connecting to a cable/satellite tuner and a audio set-up, why pay for another set of speakers/tuner?

The folks at Visual Apex carry the 58" TH-58PF11UK $2,989 and they get high marks for reliability, integrity and customer service. Cleveland Plasma and Newegg also get high marks.

You can get a wall mount from monoprice(be sure to hit the wall studs!!! ) for $2-=$80, which is lots cheaper than a $500 stand. I use a tilt stand for the 58" and my 42" (professional plasma) in the great room.

Anyhow - just something else to consider.

CAVEAT: This is a bit of long post as I wrote this at work, trying desperately to do anything but my actual job

Thanks to all for the replies and information.

I'm still hunting - although I may wait a bit before making a major purchase. We just finished our basement to accommodate a live-in nanny (my wife is going back to work in January). So we do need a television for her (and the children when they are playing in the basement). But I might forgo the big purchase and just plop an old 27" CRT down there and keep my 51" CRT rear-project Sony upstairs. The idea was to move it to the basement and buy a new one for ourselves but money's a bit tight after blowing a wad on the basement.

Nonetheless, if I were buying a television, I'd definitely buy a 58" or 60" plasma. I'm not interested in an LCD (have a 32" and actually prefer my CRT rear projection's image) and the LEDs are too expensive compared to equivalent plasmas. And I prefer the picture quality of a plasma. I do not want to go less than 58" nor bigger than 60" (due to room size and current entertainment unit). It also has to be stand-mounted and not wall-mounted - and the stand has to be incorporated with the existing entertainment unit (two piers and a bridge).

So that leaves the following:

- Pioneer 60" plasmas
- Samsung 58" plasmas (PN58B650 or PN58B550)
- Panasonic 58" plasmas (TC58S1, TC58G10, TC58V10)
- LG 60" plasmas (60PS60/70)

I'm in Calgary, Canada so this limits some of my choices. The Pioneers are hard to find and too expensive - so they are out of consideration. The S1 Panasonics are the same price as the 550 Samsungs and possibly a bit more expensive, and I believe the Samsung 550 would be the better choice versus the Panny S1. I cannot find the Panny G10 series and the V10 are too expensive - so the Panny's are out.

That leaves me with Samsung and LG. I think I'd prefer the Samsung 650 series but only Future Shop carries it as an exclusive model (not available at other retailers), so the price is $800-$1000 more than the 550 series (retail). However, I can purchase the 650 as a refurbished unit from E-Outlet Canada.

Retail-wise, I believe my choice is between the Samsung 550 series and the LG 60PS70 - both locally available and costing approx. the same. I'm torn between the two - the Sammy probably has the (slightly) better picture (debatable?) and, according to reviews, is easier to calibrate (without a professional). The LG, however, is bigger and, according to reviews, provides a very good picture as well. I've looked at both in the store but I find it hard to compare in that setting - so I'm relying more on reviews and advice.

So, in a nutshell, I'm seeking advice on these 3 models. Does anyone have any experience with any of these models? Any preferences? And does anybody have any experience purchasing refurbished televisions (specifically from E-Outlet Canada)?

Thanks again for humoring me!

Bryan

I'd try a little harder to find the Panasonic. Even if it costs more than the Samsung or LG, they make better sets, so the money is worth it. LG is at the bottom of my pile for electronics manufacturers, all their stuff is just so cheaply made (don't forget they were Lucky-Goldstar before the rebranding). Samsung ranks a little higher; I classify them as "the best of the cheap stuff". Still with Pioneer out of the plasma running, Panny is the way to go.

I have purchased a pair of Panasonic plasmas in the last couple years, the latest a 50S1 about four months ago... Great units IMO.

I also just had Panasonic warranty a repair that was partially my fault on a blue-ray player... The brand is just great.

After many hours of reading threads on avsforums, I have come to the conclusion it really doesn't matter which one you buy these days, they all have some sort of issue, ie. banding, flashlighting, lag, and you hope you buy the one that doesn't develop any major problems/breakdowns.

I am now stuck between the Panasonic 54" Plasma G10 and anyone of the LED back lit LCD's, the LG 55" H90 series is at the front of the pack at the momment, a good price point and picture for the cost.

You may have just saved me a lot of trouble redoing your research. I just started researching these things last night to upgrade my 4 year old 56” Samsung DLP which is showing it’s age. Both these look pretty good for the price anything in particular that drew you to them?

However, I’m not sure if I want to get something pretty nice in the $1,500-$2,000 range and around 55” or just get something to get me by in the $500-$1,000 range and more like 42“-46“. Did anything in the lower range happen to catch your eye?

Dean, a good buy in that range is the Panasonic TC-P42X1 .

The Panny G10 is available in 46", IIRC. I also liked the Sony XBR9 which is a rehash of the Z5100.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I’m checking them out.

I hear what you are saying.....I spent many hours on AVS before I bought my LCD TV. Reports of Flashlighting and Clouding had me concerned. In the end, after several hours of viewing for myself in big box stores, I went ahead and purchased. When I got home, I had both the dreaded Flashlighting AND Clouding. My first thought was..."I knew it!". But....both "problems" were only visible in gray screen or blank screen mode. In actual useage, it has never been an issue. Moral: Take the AVS rants with a grain....I am sure that there are legit issues discussed but a lot of those guys will pick a nit of a nit of a nit.

Agree 100%, those videophiles pick apart picture quality worse than we do with sound. Other than Rainbow effects etc., which obviously deal with color and actual viewing material, most complaints come from black variations and most admit the issues are nearly only seen when credits roll or very dark scenes in movies etc. Not a big deal in my book so once I get the house and hava place to put the TV, which ever TV I can get the best deal on out of a select few will be the one I go with.

I do have to laugh a little at some of the complaints of off angle viewing, some of those guys are talking about an angle so ridiculously high I would never watch from.

It's true LCDs do become unviewable from extreme angles, but any amount off center and contrast starts to drop. Heck, on big screens which fill your field of view it's possible for the sides to already have a measurable contrast drop.

Try some of these test patterns on an LCD display (you can use either a HTPC or a media player, just make sure the driving device and the display are in pix-by-pix mode): http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

I own the Samsung LCD LN37B550 37 inch and I'm disappointed in the off-viewing angle performance. The only time I can see a really decent picture is when I'm looking exactly from the center. Anything off from this, the picture quality starts to degrade. But since I only paid $700 for it, I tell myself that I'll just upgrade in a couple of years and delegate this either to another room or to a friend that can't afford one.

I can easily watch my 6 series Sammy from 45* off centre...at 60* off centre you can see the picture degrades quite rapidly but who watches TV at these angles anyhow?

Exactly

The 6 series must have a much better panel that the cheaper ones, then.

Honestly I don't know, Cat. I doubt if the 60 vs 120 hz has anything to do with it which I think is the major diff between the two. Is your TV 1080p?

Yes, 1080p. In the stores I don't see the PQ dropoff like I do at home when I walk back and forth in front of it. I have the backlight turned down to 5, which helped for direct zero degree viewing. I set the brightness and contrast according to instructions on a calibration disk. My chair that I watch from is about 20 deg off. Sometimes, I pull up my computer chair and watch at zero degrees off and I get a much better picture. (Earlier I compared this TV with my 26 inch Samsung LN26B360 and got the exact same picture quality with off angle viewing, so I know it's not a defective panel).

You're not catching reflections off a nearby window or anything?

I know that the PQ drops off - but for me and the usual audience the picture quality is jaw dropping. If I actually tried measuring with test screens, I would just ruin my happiness at the picture.

On a separate note, the LED TV's were not out (they were part of the rumour mill) when I was in the market. I have not done much reading except that the rumours were listing them as the next great innovation. Has that panned out?

Reflections not an issue. These screens have a matte surface. Same issue regardless of ambient light, including totally dark room.

There are LED back-light LCD TVs available, they have more accurate color temp, and zone-based back-light modulation, so it's an incremental improvement over the florescent back-light models. There are no pure LED-based TVs (LEDs are still too big to make up sub-pixels). There are some smaller OLED (Organic) which does allow for sub-pixel cells small enough. But the manufacturing process is still too expensive that there are no displays much larger than 20-some inches, and those cost nearly $1000 anyway.

The smaller Samsung sets use an inferior panel according to sources on AVS.

I just got back from looking at 55" flat panels and the LED and new Plasmas all look incredible. I really didn't see much wrong with any TV from any of the big name manufacturers, this is a good time to be buying a TV I think.

It is a good time. Last week I picked up the Samsung UN55B6000 (55" LED). Best Buy matched Brandsmart's price of $1998. It has the same panel as the 7000 and 8000 series, minus some internet features and 240 hz refresh (8000), which from what I've read, no one can discern the difference from 120 hz refresh. I certainly couldn't. It does lose black levels when off angle, but it's an outstanding picture nonetheless. A nice upgrade from my Sony 60" SXRD. Even the Wii's display appears to be HD at first glance.

You're making my 60" Sony SXRD cry.

60" TVs don't cry, they Melt Faces!!!

Sorry, was playing World of Warcraft on the weekend with my Nephews using their accounts. I'm afraid only other WoW players will get the humor.