Hello everybody.

I am finally able to start my home theater.

For the receiver, I got the Denon AVR-890. For the speakers, I deceided to go with Axiom. The system I am trying to build will hopefully be my dream system and I hope will last me a long long time.

At the moment, I can only afford the fronts but eventually it will become a 5.1.
To give you a bit of info, my room is at the moment 20ftx10ft with hardwood. The system will be used as much for music as for movies and I listen pretty much to everything from orchestra to vocals to pop, rock, rap, house ...

I am currently debating between the M60s and the M80s. Originally I was going for the 80s but after reading a few posts on this site, I am not too sure.

Some would think that the M80s would be overkill for a room this size. The thing is that I might not stay at this place forever and one day, budget permitting, I would like to go to a bigger place.

Some say that if we pair the 60s or the 80s to a sub, we can't tell the difference. Well, I intend one day to get a sub. Does it mean that the 80s will loose their edge over the 60s since the low frequencies will be taken care of by the sub? Will I gain anything by getting the 80s? I don't mind spending the extra $$$ if I am gaining something as I am trying to get the best sounding system that I can.

Like I said, I am trying to build my dream system that will keep me smiling for many years so any advice or opinion will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

bdpf

Welcome to the forum

I would head over to the Hearing Things forum and look for someone nearby to ask for an audition. This way you can hear the M60s/M80s and decide for yourself which ones to get. Barring that order up the M60s and give them a try, if you are not overly happy order up the M80s, you will only pay for the cost difference between the M60/M80, Axiom covers the shipping as long as it is with in the 30 day trial period.

Ideally if you can swing it, order both, compare them and send back the set you don't like.

As you live in Toronto a drive up to Dwight would be my suggestion. You can listen to both and let your ears and budget decide.

You should call Axiom and make an appointment before hand, if you want to audition at the plant. Let them know which speakers you are interested in.

Either M60s or M80s would work for you but you may have to address the hardwood flooring situation with a decent rug to help with reflections(I am using an 8x11 wool rug in a similar sized room).

Hi bdpf,

And welcome to the Axiom forums.

In addition to the excellent suggestions already made, I'd point out that in the double-blind listening comparisons I do at the Axiom plant, the M80s have audibly deeper bass and more overall bass output than the M60s. They are also ever so slightly smoother on some vocals (mainly operatic solo and massed choral recordings) than the M60s but I'd point out that I'm very fussy and critical about midrange stuff. You would be unlikely to notice the subtle difference on some vocals unless it was an instantaneous comparison between the 60s and 80s.

And the M80s are not too large for the room size you mention. Our Axiom listening room isn't much larger. Since you won't have a subwoofer for a time, I expect you'll really love the powerful deep bass from the M80s on their own. And you can tell the difference between the 60s and 80s with a subwoofer because of the slight midrange differences.

Your Denon 890 will drive either the 4-ohm M80s or the M60s with no stability problems.

Regards,
Alan

Thank you guys for your advice. Eventually in a few weeks, if I can't make up my mind, I will probably take a day off and visit the Axiom office.

Adrian:
Regarding the reflection problem, what do you mean by that? How will the sound be affected by that? Will the speakers sound unclear or muddy? Is the rug really necessary? Trying to convince the wife to put a rug won't be an easy task Isn't the Audessey Multi EQ suppose to help with this type of problem?

Alan:
Thank you very much for your input. I am glad to hear that the 80s will still have a slight edge over the 60s even paired to a sub.

If possible, I would like to have more comments from people that have owned or heard both speakers and the reason why they have picked one over the other?

It seems that the more I read, the more confused I get. I've read from a few Axiom owners that even the M22s paired to a sub will sound very similar to the 80s which, to me, is very surprising specially considering that they cost 1/3 of the price. If this is true I might also consider them, which make my decision even more complicated but considering the price, it's very tempting considering that even if I would go with the 80s, I would still probably buy a sub in the future for movies purpose. The only thing that turns me off is that they are bookshelves. I would rather have floor standings and these M80s sure look damn good but does looks justify the price tag...

The M22's+sub are almost equal to M80s+sub, but as Alan mentioned the M80s do have a bit smoother sound to them and better mid/upper bass. This extra mid/upper bass was what made me go with the M80s over the M60s and M22s as my main listening speaker. The M60s+sub sound nearly identical to M22+sub, IMO. The 60's do not seem to add as much mid/upper bass to the equation as the M80s do, but they do offer more than the M22+sub, but this is all only based on A/B testing. I highly doubt anyone could tell much difference with out A/B tests. YMMV.

Re reflections, you can do some experimenting once you get your speakers. Run your Audyssey program and listen to your system for a while to accustom yourself to the sound, then you could try placing a blanket on the floor in front of the speakers and see if you notice any improvement in them. Every room is different in regards to size, shape, wall/floor coverings, furniture ect, as are people's listening levels....Audyssey will certainly help, but you should feel free to experiment a little too.

More importantly, do you want to belong to the club with the coolest secret handshake and decoder ring or not. M80s all the way!


I agree completely.

The M80s on their own have stunning bass.

I also agree that the best thing to do is go for a drive and listen for yourself. It's a beautiful drive in the winter and a really fun day.

[quote=fredk]More importantly, do you want to belong to the club with the coolest secret handshake and decoder ring or not. M80s all the way!

ha ha ha! I think that might push me over the edge

Thanks all for your support and advice. Hopefully I'll be able to make my decision soon and finally become a happy Axiom owner, I just don't know of which speaker yet

Happy new year to all!

Cheers,

I would not rule out the M60's just yet.

As I have posted before....not only do they play LOUD and clean, they are super easy to drive, with absolutely NO amp worries. I use mine for stereo music, and movies...and am more than satisfied.

As the self proclaimed, unofficial head of the M60's posse ....I give them my highest recommendation.

It does look like the M80's posse has somehow gotten to Alan, though.

I agree Larry, there are times I wish I didn't get rid of my 60's, them awesome speakers.

...but then looks at his shiny M80 decoder ring and smiles to himself....

Me too and I agree

Well, You are like me or sound like I.
I have owned the 80's ver.1 though or well before they came out with a ver.#
I auditioned the 80's and 60's , they were sold instores, so they had the 60's beside the 80's. in the same room same amp and same music and movie scenes.
If you go Factory Outlet for the 80's then you are not spendind alot more than if you were to buy the 60's..not factory outlet. You already are prepared to spend for the 80's and yes, I think the 80's are worth the extra, nothing would annoy me more than getting the 60's and sitting there thinking I had the money and that extra bit of sound I could of had.

Go with the best sound you can get with what you are prepared to spend.
I was looking at Paradigm 60's and 100's but, the Axiom 80's are better than the Studio 60's and about Equal to the Studio 100's but the Studio 100's were not $1000 better. Then I knowing I am going 7.1 started inquiring about the price of the other spearkers Centre and rears and it shortly went out of the ball park.

I say if you are willing to spend on the 80'syou may as well go for it cause it will haunt you forever. The factory outlet M80 are $1300

Ever since I bought the M80 I wish I would have picked the M60s instead.

Ha ha, sounds like something Tiger would do.

If I had a Ella ,it be Axiom what

I have the M60's and want to reinforce what brother Larry said.

The M80's haunt me not at all.

FO M60's are $892USD. FO M80's are $1198USD. Having heard them elsewhere, I do not believe that for me, in my room, the M80's would be 30% "better".

If not in your room, then what about in your mind?

well, M60's at normal cost is a $1069, just saying for $1300 CDN he can get FO M80's

And mayb his room and ears etc here things a little different and maybe they are worth the extra few hundred. He is prepared to spend that much.

anyways, it is something he has to decide on

Ah Ah Ah !!!

This is great !!! It looks like there is on this forum alone all scenarios, people with 60s and happy, people with the 80s also happy, people with the 60s wishing to have the 80s, and people with the 80s wishing they would have not get rid of the 60s !!! LOL !!!

Will the M80s only sound nicer over the M60s or M22s in stereo listening or would it also be noticeable in movies and multichannel concerts?

Also, I have a small baby, so for know I will listen at moderate levels, which one will be more detailed at lower levels? Or do the all perform as well at low and high levels? The reason I am asking is because my understanding is that the M22s for example will sound nicer at higher volumes.

Its a big open space. I think he would have to step up to those monster M160 things.

The M80s work just fine at lower volumes. I'm quite pleased with the detail they have--quite superior to my M50tis.

I would say the M22/M80s(pretty even too) have the edge at lower volumes over the M60s, once the volume gets up to ~80db the differences start to disappear.

I still give the edge to the M80s for their richer/fuller sound over the other 2 for movies and multichannel music, but again if I hadn't listened to the others in A/B comparisons I wouldn't have known I was missing anything.

My room is about 14x13 and I have 2m80 +VP150 +4QS8 + sub..
dont think about it, M80 it should be!!

you dont need 7.1 for the room, 5.1 is enough.

I went through the same question before placing my order just before Christmas. I decided on the M60's for a couple of reasons that came from reading a lot of postings.

1) I don't believe I could tell the difference even with a double blind, side by each, turned on your *@#* test.

2) With the saved money, I spent it on the High Gloss Cherry finish.

3) The biggest difference seems to be in a small amount of bass response so my intent is to get an additional sub woofer in 6 months or so to even out the whole room. I think this would overcome the 60/80 difference.

Just some thoughts.

I think you will be Very, Very happy with your choice. Axiom takes the old term "It's all good" to whole new levels.

As sloped says .....
but I wish I could hear the 60/80's side by side in blind comparison. with and with a sub.

SirQ

you have an awesome room, and I see you also have 60's and 80's.
also, you EP600 in the middle.

SO, honestly is that a great location "if" i were to get a EP800 and would that be as good or better than two EP500.

also, which speaker gives the best sound 60/80 and are the mids noticable in the 80's. are they if the 80's are better , worth the extra $400.
Basically if the money is there for the 80's would you if you had to choose, which would you take home
thanks

I am in the 60's clan and I DO NOT wish to have the 80's. I also have the 500 sub - so the extra bass means nothing to me. As far as filling up the room - I think that is basically rubbish as you could get insanely loud, clean sound from the 60's if you desire. You would drive yourself stone deaf long before you would tax the 60's. Besides, the 80's guys perceive their equipment to be so much better that they pass out right after beginning to listen. Take the saved money and buy a VP 150 - you will not be sorry.

Huh? wa...? Oh, sorry, musta blacked out.

::checks for secret decoder ring::

Still got it!

Yeh, plan on getting the VP150 and 4 QS8's anyways. I had a M80 before but, it was before the V2 came out. I LOved them, and I ain't really worrying over saving $400 if the 8's are worth the extra. The only thing I found with the 80's were the to much tweeter, crisppy sounds, whatever you want to call it. However putting a resistor on the one may be what I am after. The mids is where I am really picky.

Personally I think the mids are where the M22s and M80s shine especially at lower volumes, once volume levels go up the M60s do a great job with mids as well, just not quite as good as the M80s. Now the 60s are ever so slightly less forward/bright than the M80s so you might still like the M60s better. I am not much help am I

Thanks, Fred. It always helps to start the work day with a laugh!

Troyd, sirquack also has two ep350s to help even out the bass response.

I don't own 60's anymore, I upgraded to m80's a few years back. The mansfield beach pictures are Version 1 of my theater, and Version 2 is Ebony Pica finish.

Which sub(s) to go with has a lot to do with your room size. Multiple subs spread around the room will give you a flatter freaquency response for all seats, however, it can be a bit tricky getting everything calibrated correctly.

Jay pretty much summed up the difference of the 60's and 80's, they are both great speakers.

yeh, thanks
I think I am going to spend the few extra $$ may as well as the mids is where it is at for me. The sub is going to take over the bottom end anyway. and , I will try the tweets as they are, but if I find them just a tad too much I will do that resistor thing.
in HT the mids are the spot where detail is bar none for a speaker.

Room size is around 15 x 28 x 9, however the theatre part it self will be about 15 x 19. there will be a false wall about 2ft for in behind the screen for wiring and such. also, in the back there is a 7ft walkin space where a refreshment/popcorn bar is.
front seats will be about 12ft. as for the other seats, don't matter I am not sitting in them

It is unlikely you would notice a difference in anything but the bass between the M60 and M80 during a casual listening session assuming they were calibrate to the same SPL. You might be able to discern the subtle differences otherwise with an instantaneous A/B switcher.
Just keep in the back of your head that the differences between the M60s and M80s (except bass) is SUBTLE.

I haven't found volume (SPL) to make any difference in such a regard (big vs smaller speaker). Only the speaker efficiency at the same volume notch would likely cause such a difference related to SPL and not sound quality.

Hi,

I would like to thank you all for sharing your comments and experience. There was a lot of good information and remarks. I would love to say that it helped me make my decision but the fact is that I am even more undecised than before. I wanted the M80s, but then after reading that the M60s are very similar, I am not sure that they are worth the extra $400. The comments regarding the M22s also got me thinking...
Since I couldn't make up my mind, I decided to take a day off and go listen to them and decide for myself. I will be visiting the Axiom facility on Monday. I will be auditioning the M80s, M60s and M22s with and without a sub (EP500). I will also have the VP150 and QS8 for 5.1 listening.

I don't consider myself an audiophile (yet), but I am able to appreciate a good sounding system. Is there any advice that I can get from more experienced people? What should I focus on in order to compare them properly? Should I really pay attention to the bass response knowing that eventually I will get a sub? Is there a certain type of music that will help me hear the true capability of each speaker? Any movie that you recommend for 5.1?

Any advice or comment will be greatly appreciated.

I have been waiting for this for a while now. On Monday, I am finally getting something, that's so great !!!

Have a nice visit, it should be interesting and fun. My main advice would be to bring music you will listen to and movies you know and enjoy. The important thing is how the speakers renders what you will actually play on them.

EDIT: I mean, Axiom certainly has a lot of materiel all ready to make you experience 5.1 and everything aplenty. So for the things you bring yourself, you should focus on the familiar.

Taking music that is familiar to you is good advice. Keep an open mind about what you are hearing rather than thinking about which speaker is playing, in other words, don't look...listen. You'll likely hear a difference between the towers and the M22 if a sub isn't used, but it'll be an interesting comparo otherwise. Also listen to them at a level you will play them at most of the time, but turn them up/down to see how you like them at higher/lower levels.

I read a while back, that Holly Cole is popular among some installers to set up/test audio equip't if you or Axiom happen to have her music available.

That enthusiasm almost has me excited. When I auditioned, I took the same advice that you are being offered here and took some familiar CD's. I had no where to audition Axioms - I had to Audition Paradigms Studio 60's and 100's. I had some classical and some female vocals. Are you buying anything except mains?

Yup, just make sure you post what you heard afterwards I am 2200 miles away and won't be there til atleast July 1st ;(

I am very interested in what you find out.

PS .. .don't take mp3 music lol

I am just going by the post as to what Alan said regarding the mids. Also, not worried aboout SPL can only listen at a normal volumn comfortably anyways

Argon:
Right now I can only afford the mains, the rest will come later.

For those of you that have the M60s or M80s, do you listen to stereo music with or without sub?

With. A sub will extend the lower freq's on certain types of music. (M80s btw)

When I had my M80 v1 speakers and my Denon 3805 I ran music subless. I found the M80 where very good. However, most here seem to leave the sub on. I think properly calibrated they are right.

I also run a sub with the M80s.

I run 3.

Well...lahhh....deee....dahhh!!

I go both ways, errrrr...... wait that didn't sound right, I will sometimes use the M80s with a sub and sometimes without just for that audio purist part in me.

I don’t use a sub for stereo but that's mainly because I don’t have much in 2.0 that needs a sub when using the M80s. OTOH I do use the sub for multi-channel music.

oh come on, you know you like Rap, thump thump thumppp

Is that the sound of the Rap or is it Dean banging his head on the wall from listening to it?

That's interesting that most of you run the M80s with a sub. Wouldn't that beat the purpose of having the 80s instead of the 60s since the extra bass given by the 80s will be useless in that case?

No, it just helps even out the room response.

It’s the sound of Dean banging the head of the person playing it into the wall, ground, car door. . . .


Don’t mind the thump. I like most EBM and it’s derivatives especially GOA Trance and Psychedelic Trance which often have beats up to 160/minute it’s the predominance of the lyrics and the associated attitude of cRap that I don’t appreciate.


IMO it sort of defeats the purpose of getting tower speakers in the first place for most people. I listen to lots and lots of Trance with very rapid bass beats. I find the bass is much clearer at 160BPM when played from just the M80s and not the M80s + sub. Could just be a byproduct of not being able to exactly match the distance delays, crossover issues, room resonance being excited by the lower bass of the sub or a combination of those and other things.

For the music where I kick the sub in there isn’t a rapid beat to deal with so I sounds fine.

bdpf, A dazzling display of logic....well done!

Randy, I have to question the use of the term "upgrading" when referring to buying M80's over M60s...They're so similar, it's really more of a preference issue.

bdpf, After you get the M60s....let us know how you like them, too.

That's the case for all speaker purchases

There is some very interesting discussion here! If you look at the 2 graphs Axiom provides for the M60 and M80, you can see that for the most part they are identical speakers with the nod going to the M80 across most of the frequency spectrum by about 2db (confirmed by the 93db vs 91db ratings of the speakers). They are both basically flat down to about 80 Hz, lose about 3 or 4 db at 60 Hz, and lose about 5 or 6 db at 40 Hz. Lower than 40 Hz, the M80 gains it's advantage over the M60. At 20Hz, the M80 can produce a signal 4 times more powerful than the M80, but it is still 20 db lower than the source (almost inaudible). And that's I guess where the sub comes into play.

If some of you remember my older posts, I played around a lot with REW and the Behringer BFD to try to even out my bass response and tame my room. I had a notorious room resonance in the 60 Hz range which caused my bass to feel "slow" (as Grunt said) and "muddy". Although I spent a lot of time with this, in the end I found an easier answer which worked for my room and my setup. I simply lowered the XO frequency in my receiver from 80 Hz to 60 Hz. In doing so, I cut out my subs and my mains trying to reproduce this frequency (which both can easily), and really dropped the room's contribution to this frquency. The end result was a bass sound that was much more "tight" and "quick". The good thing is that the sub is now there to handle the frquencies that both the M60 and M80 are not particularly great at (frequencies lower than 40Hz).

As a side note, I tried lowering the XO to 40 Hz, but IMHO and in my room, I felt it made the resultant sound "thin", so I switched it back. Keep in mind however that all of these measurements and adjustments were made when I had two EP500s. Now that I have two EP800s (twice the amount of 12" drivers), I may reinvestigate the possibility of lowering the XO to 40 Hz.

There is a great article here on subwoofer XO crossover settings:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html

But, to get back to the OP, I think either the M60 of M80 would be great for listening to music. They have almost identical frequency responses above 40 Hz, and that's where 95%+ of the frequencies in recorded music is positioned.

I think I'm learning over the years that I have to treat my subwoofers as subwoofers, and not woofers.

I have said before that I agree wholeheartedly with John's signature that says "enjoy the music - not the equipment". Having said that, my setup is new enough - Oppo Blue Ray this past December, Axioms last May, Yamaha Receiver that decodes the latest audio technology - March, 2008 and big screen LCD TV November, 2007, that I still can't resist "playing" with it every now and then. So....I will listen to music in different modes. The Yammy has "Pure Direct" mode which cuts signal to everything except the 2 Mains (M60's). I will listen to a track multiple ways - with regular decoding, maybe try one of the "Venue Surround" modes as well as the pure direct. One of the facts that still amazes me is how good the sound stage is with the Axioms. WHile listening in Pure Direct, I still crawl over to the center channel speaker to assure myself that it is not playing. The bass on the 60's is impressive as well and fine for most music. I have not heard the 80's (again, I did audition Studio 100's) so I can not offer an informed opinion there. Ultimately, I end up with the sub in the mix. This may be sacrilege but I prefer the "7.1 Enhanced" mode for the music - as does the rest of my family. I only have a 5.1 set up - the 7.1 is what Yamaha offers.

So....all kidding aside, what I do strongly recommend is Axiom speakers - Excellent quality, Excellent service.

This thread, along with the rainy and cold weather we're experiencing today just might be a great opportunity to drag my 60s out of the storage closet and do a little side by side with the 80s ... they probably need a good dusting anyway.

You really should. I don't know what has taken ya so long to begin with

It's procrastinating Rick, one of the traits I have down to a complete science.

I'm with Wid... today's a good day for the comparo... it's a good day to stay inside.

We are all procrastinating on your procrastination. If you will go ahead with the comparison - complete with posting your impressions, it will give us something to do. I just finished thawing out our water main at the well housing so I am wide open.

We did talk about going to see Avatar later.....

Are they out of the closet yet? What's takin so long

I'll do it ... I'll even post a couple of pics.

Frank the Tank is back!

I don't really understand. If you set your crossover to 80Hz, won't the sub take care of all the frequencies below that? In that case, your mains will not play anything below that so any bass you'll have in your room will come from the sub. Am I missing something?
To reinforce my position, in that case, neither the 60s or the 80s will play anything below 80Hz and since their freq response is very similar above that I still don't understand why people have the 80s over the 60s if it's to use with a sub.

And I stress about spending $1500 for the M80s ... LOL

A sub can move more air, because of the bigger driver. Also, it just doesn't "cut off" at 80hz, there is a gradual slope or blend or hand off, whatever you want to call it...Frequencies below 80hz are non-directional, meaning you can't tell where they are coming from, which is the subs purpose.

That's exactly my point, so the extra bass from the 80s will be meaningless if used with a sub since their driver will be much smaller than the subs.

If that's the case why would there be a difference between the M60s and the M22s if you have them crossed over above their cut off point. You might as well go for the M22s with that mind set.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have my mind set. I am just new to this and am trying to understand the whole theory behind this. Like I said, I will listen to them on Monday and maybe then I will understand what you people are trying to explain to me. Sorry if some of my questions don't make much sense. I am still learning.

Oh no problem. If Ian didn't think there were anything to gain (musically) with building his flagship speaker then I can't see any reason he ever developed the M80s. I've never heard the M60s but went with the best Axiom had to offer because of just that, it's their flagship. I sure didn't want any what ifs and I've enjoyed these speakers going on 7 years.

Well, I for one don't cross my M80s at 80. I cross them at 40. My center and surrounds are crossed much higher.

I cross mine over lower also.

Why did the chicken cross his M80s over at 80?

To get to the otter slide.

Because the pond on the otter side was full of bass?

bdpf,

It's more of a gradual slope than a definitive cut off, so you are still hearing a combo of the speaker blended with the sub. In most cases, the leading edge of the sound may start with the M80 and then move onto the sub. And, like others have posted, you don't have to use 80Hz as a cut off, you can adjust to what sounds best to you.

As far as using the sub to even out the sound, you can place the sub(s) in more advantageous positions in the room, thus negating room nodes that you may not be able to get away from with the placement of the towers.

I did drag the 60s out of the storage closet this morning and set them up side by side with our 80s, firstly and without having the system turned on all morning I connected the 60s and played Elton John's 'Honky Chateau' SACD. Initial impression was that the sound a bit muffled compared to what I am accustomed to, thinking it may have been the disc I connected the 80s and my first reaction was 'Yep, there's the sound that I am used to'. The 60s are great speakers and I would certainly recommend them to anybody but *to me* they don't have the same detail, depth and dynamics that the 80s have, seems like the 80s just filled the room so easily and at lower listening levels the 80s seem like they stay more consistent with the detail. I'm going to leave the 60s in the room for a few days and may even get a nice A/B switcher so that I can more easily swap between the two.



On a side note, I discovered this tweeter damage on the top tweeter of my left 80, the tweeter is working fine as far as I can tell but I believe they are still in warranty and will shoot Axiom a photo ... even if they are not in warranty I'll still replace the tweeter. I can't figure out how the damage may have happened, it's been a long while since the grills have been removed so I don't know how long it's been like this.

Out of curiosity, which versions of each do you have, Rick?

Damn, you blew that rascal up

I believe version 1 Ken, the stickers read 'M60Ti' and 'M80Ti' ... the 60s were bought in late '04 and the 80s were purchased in early '05.

I may have Rick, I only played the one disc and did a quick ear to the tweeter check and thought maybe it was working ... maybe not. I wonder how in the heck it could have blown, I'm not one to be kicking out 100dB's whenever I listen, that's strange.

Too much power from that Rotel. That is some strange looking damage.

To get to the bottom of the slope?

Those speakers are the same as the V2. The changes were made in late 03. At least I know the M80s are.

I doubt the tweeter is blown, it looks like the dome (cover) is what is damaged. I would replace it to be sure though.

I'm almost positive it's working, sure sounds like it.

Should Jan and I NOT have been shooting a pellet gun in there when you went for another beer?

Mark I asked y'all not to play with that gun whenever was in the other room, remember me saying something about 'You'll shoot my tweeter out?'

I tell ya.

Yeah, I heard ya... bit it wasn't MY tweeter so I wasn't worried!

Hi Rick, thanks for the comparison.

Well, at least when Rick threw me and Larry under the bus, he posted a nice picture.

Excatly my impressions and I have been saying that all along

I know that Randy

It was a simplified discussion. If it really did "cut off" at the set frequency, I would't bother trying anything new because it would be an instanateous step change on both sides and I would not have to even consider changing the XO frequency (for the sake of the speakers stepping on each other) in the first place. I think the key is choosing a XO point where the main is really rolling off (and the XO point contributes to it) and the sub is still there strong.

I had the opportunity to do an A/B comparison at the Axiom plant, I would agree with what others have said.

As Alan pointed out, the biggest difference is in the bass. The M80 plays the bass stuff with much more authority: more than the specs would seem to indicate. It would be easy to pick the M80s out in any blind tests.

I also compared them to the M22+ sub (M22 is considered more detailed) and here is what I found. The M80 seemed to open up the top end: give it more transparency. Similarly, a sub seemed to open up the bottom end. Noticably so on stuff that had content in the 20-30Hz range like the keyboard stuff on ELPs debut album.

For about a $300 difference, you get noticably extended bass until you buy a sub plus the more subtle differences in the Mids/high end. For me it was worth it.

Will you guys please stop making me want M80s, EP800s with new amps and, speaking of which....amps?

Thank! You!

But that is what we are here for Mark

I almost forgot to mention, M80s sound particularly good in square rooms.

Just something I think we should clear up when applying generalizations like “frequencies below 80 Hz are non-directional” which like many generalizations is over simplified. They are directional. AFAIK all waves propagating through a medium are directional. The question is whether or not one can perceive them in a specific situation. I’ve been knocked down in the direction of travel by the shock (sound) wave of a tank main gun firing. I’ve watched a seismic wave travel from one end of a long hallway to another in a building. Almost daily I feel the thump on my chest each time an engine on my aircraft lights off. If I’m facing away from the aircraft I feel the thump on my back.

There are many factors that influence out ability to perceive the directionality of bass like: limitations of our senses (the lower the frequency the harder to locate), personal perception (some people locate bass easier than others), intensity of the sound (more intense sounds are easier to locate), enclosed space (reflected sound waves mask the direction of sounds depending on their frequency and the size of the room), distance from source (effects intensity but also can allow the sound to reach us before reflections effect it), direction of source (sounds coming from the expected direction “usually the front” don’t stand out as much as sounds coming from unexpected directions) and I‘m probably missing some.

Telling someone to set all there speakers to small and cross them at 80 may be a good starting point, and for the average person it might also be a good ending point. However, I submit that most people posting in or even lurking around forums like this want to know more about and get something more out their system than just the average person. I believe we do them a disservice when giving canned answers that either get repeated often enough that they become gospel or are foisted on us by entities like THX, Dolby and Audyssey who all have their own reasons for preferring particular settings but have no knowledge of the situation under which the equipment is being used.

People should feel free to experiment with different crossovers and settings on their speakers, rather than conform to what is believed by the masses. They may well like the "preferred" setup but then again, why not try setting the fronts to full range....isn't this Ian's preferred setup vs Alan's 80hz small recommendation on the fronts(correct me if I'm wrong)? In the end, whatever YOU like is the right setup.

The one thing that I sweated on the cheaper Yamaha that I purchased was the inability to set independant crossover points. In practice, I haven't really noticed any issues. Mine are set at 80 but I can bypass in the pure direct mode.

I didn't expect Rick to say the M60s sounded best to him.
I have always conceded that in a head to head, the edge would have go to the M80s.

However, I think given the 4ohm aspects, and amplification requirements the M80's have.........M60s (and other Axiom speakers) would be a better choice for many. (IMO)

Still glad I chose my M60s.

Then one should talk about the Schrodinger/Schroer (or whatever it is) point. That being the point at which sound waves change from behaving like a wave to behaving more like a ray. That can be between 150 and 300Hz (room dependant). The point being that it is at this point that sound waves become more easy to localize. Hope I didn't mangle that too much, I can't find my original reference.

Did you learn nothing through 12 or 13 years of school?? Conform or suffer the consequences...

Hi bdbf,

Regarding your listening comparisons at Axiom, if you want to isolate nuances between speakers, listen in stereo with no subwoofer. If you listen in 5.1, differences between the front main speakers are much harder to spot because there is so much going on in the room.

As FredK mentioned, you'll hear the difference in low bass output, both extension and amount of bass, between the 60s and 80s immediately. When I do blind tests, I write down phrases like "spectacular deep bass; is a sub running?" for the M80s.

The 80s are a tad smoother through the midrange on male and female vocals than the 60s or the M22s, but these are small differences, and the M22s are wonderful speakers.

The old M80ti was changed in 2003; prior to that we sometimes supplied resistors to owners of the ti to damp down tweeter output, but we stopped doing that after the M80 crossover was changed (the v2 wasn't added until several years later, in 2005 if memory serves).

There is a Holly Cole CD at Axiom; we use it in our listening tests. The track we use is "I Can See Clearly Now the Rain . .

Have fun tomorrow.

Regards,

Just for fun, I turned off my sub, then went into my speaker setup and set my M80's back from a 55hz crossover to full range.
Then I played some excellent recordings from the likes of Steely Dan, Diana Krall, and Patricia Barber. Wow! I would swear that the sub was running. I had to doublecheck. Clear, clean detailed power. Awesome.

Still say when listening to music on CD ....no sub it sounds awesome on the 80's.

It comes down to your audition tomorrow, regardless of what anyone posts here, you will hear something different. Something is going to apeal to you more.
It will also , come down to if it is worth the extra $400. You have got to get that notion of the sub, outta your head. You are auditioning the mains and the fine and finer points of the speaker. Adding a sub in later on is a bonus to help the speakers, in home theatre to produce lower frequencies and a higher volumn level when it is called for.

Put it like this, if for some ungodly reason you crank on so lets say a great tune from a grweat Canadian band "Rush" tune and crank it up to the point in a song where the bass guitar and drum are really heavy. Chances are Neal Peart and Geddy are going to to make them woofers move and then distortion sets in and sounds like a cardboards paper fluttering and you walk out thinking this is crap, kinda like a teenager would do. lol
Now, at the same spot same volumn level turn on your sub EP800 or hell even a EP350 properly calibrated and setup chance are the *)'s are not going to be working hard, the lower frequencies have rolled off and the mega wattage is not being used by the amp to drive the woofers in the *)'s. Why, because I now gots a 600 watt 12" sub that is doing all this work( Heavy lifting ) and guess what, it is not even staining, because it can handle it, and guess what the whole setup is cleaner and even louder.
Where the 80's were a few minutes ago, trying very hard , it is now passing off the heavy work to the sub and where the 30 hz frequencies need volumn it has a partner to do it. As the 80 produce 30hz, that may well be but at what level as a whisper or a normal talking volumn I don't think they could yell at 30 hz. This is where the sub helps any speaker.

But, in 2.0 stereo take Diana Krall CD with you sit back close your eyes and enjoy no sub needed those low notes are a joy to hear on the 80's and her voice is beautiful in mids.

And if you want to hear how well a sub is or the 80's do at low ends .... Sound Gardens first song I think on the first CD, that song before that "Chica cherry cola" song has a very low rumble and bass that'll work at normal volumn

my 3cents

Even with my old m60's, I bet I had 3 in home auditions where the user kept asking me to turn the sub off, it was off. The m60's are great speakers for those that are undecided...

I think you mean Savage Garden. And I swear I only know that because I had an Australian e-pal who was in love with them for a while, before moving on to Oasis.

basically all I am saying is everyone has their opinions on what they like for sound. And what they want to spend. Some will think $400 more is worth it some won't as in previous posts.
also, it maybe a while before he gets a sub, and that is something that needs auditioning on it's own later. I just think get the best sounding speaker for the amount you want to spend.
Anyways .... I think it is better, to go a bit better, than a little less, than what you are willing to spend.

Case in point. if I went shopping and said I am only spending aproximatley $1200. Well, I have two choices $1000 m60 or $1500 M80. Well, once I hear them the M60's they are right in the ball park ...sound and $$$ value, however the M80's have a little better sound that I like but maybe not $300 extra. So, I'd probably go with the 60's.

However, if I said I will spend upto and have $1500 and auditioned the 60's, 80's and Studio 100's . I may like the 60's but really like the 80's and the extra is not an issue because I am prepared to spend %1500. However, I love the 100's over all, but at $1800 they are out of my range or over $1500 ( I know they are closer to $3000 )
Anyways this will be over with tomorrow ...or will it ;))

Thank you all for your wonderful advices. I can't wit until tomorrow. I will let you know what I thought of the whole experience.


I really hope so

Have fun!

I know he was thinking it.

After Rick got me started by breaking out his M60's for fun, I played with my set up for fun - most of the afternoon yesterday. I broke out the Spears and Munsil disc that came with the Oppo and diddled with it for a while - then I dug out the DVE that I have had for several months. Embarrasingly enough, I had never found all the reference material until yesterday. Specifically, I found the 15-150 Hz sweep. The 500 kicks in immediately at 15 and really tons it out starting 20-22. I now had an easily repeatable sound sweep that allowed me to track down the annoying rattle that I hear when deep bass kicks in during a movie. I put the disc on repeat and began searching. I had to get right in front of the 500 to discover it was the frame of an album cover. What really got me, though, was how much air the 500 was moving - it literally caused my pants to flutter in the breeze! Tonight, time permitting, I am thinking about running the same sweep with the sub off so that I can get an idea of when the 60's would kick in.

Keep us posted.

Can do.....I am thinking I will need to set the speakers to large - as turning off the sub may leave them crossed at 80? Also, I was just reading up on how to use the DVE to calibrate color - I think I will have a go at that too.

If you turn the sub off in the avr menu it should automatically set the mains to large.

DVE is pretty good with color calibration

lol yes, ex loved them and had that song on the CD for our waltz when I did the stupid thing and got married for the year ;)))

I know I just found the wrong one, marriage can be good blah,blah hack hack.

But, that first part and I loved auding that chicka song for hearing the fast, low heavy action on a woofer. The kik drum is clean, heavy fast also Alana Myles "Got this thing for you"

I don't use this to find out how low the woofers can go or sub. Just part of the response, and action

Wellllll bdbf it is 11:30 atlantic time. I google'd map Toronto to Dwight it is 3hr drive. you must of loved them so much your still there listening ;)))

If you left at 8am that means you had from 11am of testing time ...thump,thump,thump goes my foot, where can he be lool

hope it went well

Give him a chance to hook up his new........M60s

ah, ah, ah

we'll have to have a vote before he gets back, on which he one he's getting

Last night playing the DVE on the 15-300 hz sweep for M60's only, I got no significant sound until the sweep hit around 30. On my Yamaha, I had to manually set the fronts to large......Rob

where's bdbf, did he get lost in the wilderness ;))

Some people much more interesting lives than the rest of us

Let's hope he doesn't show up inside someone's EP800.

haha
He was so amazed at the M80's he just cannot seem to leave

LOL, NO, I made it back safe and sound after avoiding getting run over a moose and eaten by two bears




Yep, with a 6 weeks old baby, it's not easy to find some time

OK, lets start:

Getting to Axiom:
On Monday morning, my friend and I left from Toronto area around 9.30am. After driving for 2h30 through the vast canadian fields full of snow, we finally made it to Dwight. As expected, you can cross the town in about 30s by car Since our appointment was for 1pm, we stopped at the Moose Cafe for lunch. If you guys one day visit Axiom, stop there, the burgers are awesome!

Entering the Axiom temple:
At 1pm, we headed to Axiom. As soon as we entered, everybody was very nice. I would like to thank Noreen from the reception, Peter from sales for giving me the tour, and Mike for setting up the system.
I am not gonna lie, when I entered the listening room, my first feeling was disappointment. First, it's located behind the machine that cuts the MDF for the speaker enclosure so There is always a constant noise. I thought that it would be disturbing while listening. Second and foremost, when I called last week, I mentioned that I wanted to audition the M80s, M60s and M22s for the front but also the EP500, VP150 and QS8 for 5.1 listening. I know that it's quite a bit but when I got there there was only the M80s and EP500 connected. There was a pair of 60s on the side wall so I asked if they could connect them as my main purpose was to A/B both. I didn't feel comfortable also asking if Mike could bring a pair of 22s since they were not in the room. My intention was to get towers anyway but it would have been nice to audition them if it would have been setup.Except for that everything else was great.

The Looks:
Both speakers look absolutely stunning. I was at first a bit worried about them being with a vinyl finish but the finish is wonderful. You have to look very close to notice that it is vinyl (I actually had to touch them to make sure)

The Audition (I know, you guys don't care about the rest ;)):

2ch without the sub:

We started with the 60s. My first impression was: WOW!. I found them to sound extremely clean and balanced. I used mostly "hotel california" from the Eagles to compare them. The guitars sounded crisp and clear, so did the drums. I was especially surprised with the amount of bass that they were able to output as I was expecting that from the 80s but not the 60s. I also found them to be extremely flat with no frequencies emphasized over others. Overall, I was very impressed, so was my friend.

Now the 80s. I played the same song and WOW, what a difference in bass, the 80s go much lower. The hit of the spanish drum at about 34s was just unbelievable. I felt that with this bass, no sub would be needed for music, only maybe for movies. At some point thru the song it even seemed that there was a little bit too much bass for my taste. However, the difference was not only on the bass, something else was there extra and until today, I am not sure what it is. If somebody that heard both knows what I am talking about and wants to explain it to me, please do so. As I mentioned before, I am not an audiophile so it is very hard to describe it in technical words. I just felt that when listening to the 80s, it felt like the soundstage became much bigger as if the M80s would be more forward than the 60s. Contrary to the 60s, I didn't find the 80s as flat, the bass was very clean but it seems that the high mids and the highs were playing a bit higher which is probably what gave it the more forward aspect.
However, this difference was not as noticeable while playing a female voice like Celine Dion or Holly Cole. When concentrating strictly on the voice, they seemed almost identical on both speakers but when listening also to the instruments, the difference was back.
As a few mentioned, I found that the 80s were more refined at lower levels that the 60s and as the volume goes up, this difference goes down.

2ch + sub:
As expected, the sub compensate for the difference of bass between both and gives the 60s a more full range sound. I found that crossing the 60s over at 60Hz or 80Hz gave the best result while the 80s still sounded good to me at 40Hz. As for without a sub, I still found the 60s more flat and the 80s with a bigger soundstage.

After a couple of hours of listening, my friend and I found that our hearing was getting tired and was not as accurate as at the beginning and if a decision had to be made, it should be soon. So we decided to take a brake and have a bit of fun and listen to some 5.1 stuff. We had to call back Mike so he could install a VP150 and also connect the QS8.
While he was preparing the room, Peter gave us a tour. It was great to see all the different process, from the machine that cuts the enclosures, to the soldering station where the components are put together, to the test setup of every speaker. What was very impressive was also the anechoic chamber. That's the first time I've been in a place with no echo at all, so that was pretty cool.

5.1 listening:
When we came back, we just had fun and put a couple of concerts in 5.1, Pink Floyd 1994 Earls Court London and The Eagles's Hell Freezes Over. I also put the scene of the Matrix when Neo and Trinity enter the building and go against the SWAT team. Of course all sounded nice and entertaining as it should be. The only thing that I found strange was that I was having a hard time hearing the QS8 but that might just be because I am not used to a 5.1 HT.

Decision Time:
The hard part was when the time came to make a decision. I brought my friend along knowing that he has been a musician for 15 years and has been writing, composing and mixing his songs for about 5 years and that he would be a valuable critic. It seemed to me that the M80s sounded better. So when I asked him: "If it was for you, which ones would you pick" and he tells me the M60s, I was thrown off guard. He explained to me that he found the 60s to be more flat and actually more accurate than the 80s. For him, a guitar sounded more like a real guitar on the 60s than the 80s, same for the drums. He found each instrument to be more detailed on the 60s and the overall sound to be not as clear on the 80s. We both agreed that the 80s has something extra, but where he saw the extra as a "blur" I saw something extra that I like. So then the question was, do I trust myself and my untrained ear or do I trust my friend that has been involved in music for many years. After a long internal debate, everything went clear when my friend told me: "Bruno, these are two excellent speakers, and when it comes to this level of quality, it really comes down to taste, so pick whatever sounds better to you for whatever reason, you won't be disappointed with either one". And that's when I finally decided to get the M80s.

Conclusion:
The reason I decided to get the M80s are:
- To my ear, there was something about them, in the way they sound, that I liked better than the 60s,
- I LOVED the huge soundstage that they are able to give
- I really liked the extra bass and felt that for music I wouldn't need a sub. This is a + since i don't really know when I will be able to get one.
- I also watch a lot of movies and thought that the 80s had a tiny advantage in this domain.
- And the reason the most important of all is because the day before I went, I showed the pictures of both speakers to my wife and she said: "Get the big ones, they look better"

To the people that are reading this looking for the same answer, keep in mind that these are comments from a person who's ears are not as trained as many in this forum. I just picked whatever sounded the best to me. Do not think that since the M80s are Axiom's flagship, they would be the best, Like I said, my friend has been involved in music for 15 years and liked the 60s the best. It all depends on what sounds the best to you so if you have a chance to hear both, PLEASE do so.

Thank you all for your amazing comments and advice. I am finally a proud Axiom owner.

Cheers,

Bruno



FredK, you have no choice but to show it to me now

Nice write up, thanks for taking the time. Congrats on your new speakers.

Good review Bruno. When it comes to deciding between Axiom's tower speakers, it really comes down to fairly minor nuances. Congrats. I assume you picked them up at the factory while you were there or did you place an order?

I couldn't come home without them !

Great writeup and an excellent comparison Bruno, thanks for sharing your experience and congratulations with your purchase!

Excellent comparison thanks for taking the time to do it.

M60's.......Recommended by REAL Musicians everywhere

Great awesome write up ..
It seems to me that as posted before, if you (me) can just only have the one Tweeter it may make that difference in too much high and bring it in line with the flatness.

Just my preference, I am no Alan or Ian.

I love the bass in the 80's specially music quick, punchy and tight.
And thanks, now when I go to Toronto this summer I have to drive to Axiom and my 11yr is not going to like 2 hrs of music, theatre listening. Well, maybe she will it sounds interesting and fun and she's a good critic also, teaching her young

But, if Movies is where most of your listening is going to be then soundstage is what you want.

Nice write up Bruno. Just remember, just because your friend is in music doesn't mean he hears things the same as you(his hearing could even be damaged?), as he said, with speakers of this quality you can't go wrong and you should feel very good about your choice.

FYI, a former active forum member's wife is a Cello player and she picked the M80s over the M60s as they sounded more real to her when we did tests with the M60/M80s

Great write up. I love listening to peoples different reactions to equipement I have at home.

Wait until Charles starts writing about his PJs experimentations!

Good One! You have been on fire with the snappy humor lately Eric.

Thanks for the excellent writeup, Bruno. Congrats on your new system!



Atta girl!

Patience grasshopper, patience...

Your friends comments are interesting. Both speakers measure very flat across their entire frequency range.

Nice write up indeed. I hope to visit the axiom homestead some day. In the end what matters the most is what sounds best to you.

Good choice (coming from a fellow m80 owner)

Thanks you all.

I am sure my friend still hears pretty well !!! specially after our audition !!! LOL.

What only comes down to is preference, he liked better the 60s, I the 80s. I'm still not sure what I liked more about them but I loved them! My wife is starting to get jealous!

I wonder if my dreams will get any weirder.

This should get interesting ::grabs popcorn::

Speaking of dreams. Last night I dreamed I bought a new car, but forgot to ask what price it was. Then when I went back to the dealer, they wouldn't tell me.

If you have to ask the price you can't afford it

What if you've hired someone else to ask the price?

Maybe I could just default on the payments and they would repossess it. But then, they would probably sell it for less then sue me for the difference, and never tell me how much I owed them.

For those of you that have a denon receiver, how do you run the Audyssey calibration? On the manual, it just says to plug the mic and run the auto setup. That's what I did, but I remember a while back reading on this forum about a reference of 75db or something similar. Also, does the position of the volume knob matters when running the auto calibration, does it have to be at a certain volume? Should it be set to 0? There was a thread here about this but I can't seem to find it.

bdpf, The volume on the receiver does not matter when running the auto setup/ audyssey. The setting of the gain knob on your sub woofer does matter though. As soon as you plug the mic into the denon the auto setup screen shows up.

Here is the Audyssey FAQ on the Audyssey web page:
http://www.audyssey.com/faq/index.html

Here is a great setup guide (download the word doucment at the end of the first post) over at AVS forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

When the setup is done I recommend changing the fronts to small, and the lfe to 120 on the crossover setup menu in the denon.

Thanks for the sites.
Right now, I don't have a sub but are you talking about changing the crossover between the fronts and the sub to 120HZ? Isn't that too high? I have the M80s so I thought the crossover should be around 40, 60, 80Hz depending on preference.

He's just talking about the high pass filter on the sub side, not between the M80s and the sub.

Can you explain?

Maybe.

Uhhhhh...

OK.

The crossover in the receiver refers to removing frequencies below a certain level for the regular speakers, right? Now, the high pass filter in the receiver removes frequencies above a certain level for the sub. You want to set that at the same level or higher than the highest crossover level (probably your surrounds). That way you're fully covered, and there's not a lot of doubling.

Thanks.

I understand the logic, however, isn't it still a low pass even for the sub? You let the frquencies for 0 to 120Hz pass and you attenuate afterwards?

Could be that I have the terminology wrong. Wouldn't surprise me.

Bruno, that setting affects only the LFE channel which contains low frequency effects occasionally present in movies. It isn't the crossover(80Hz or whatever)between the sub and speakers on regular material(movies or music)channels. The LFE channel extends to 120Hz, but in practice little or nothing above about 80Hz is mixed into it. Some want to set the filter to 120Hz in case something useful is occasionally up there, others say that the only thing there is some random noise which could be lessened with a 80Hz setting. Not a matter of much concern either way.

Thank you guys for the explanation.

Hi All,

A critical part of my M60 vs M80 decision concerns my receiver, a Marantz SR7002. It's formally rated as 110 wps, but an Audioholics test reported power output: <0.1% THD + N
* 144wpc x 1 8-ohms
* 128wpc x 2 8-ohms
* 180wpc x 1 4-ohms
* 170wpc x 2 4-ohms

Have you had, or do you know of anyone who has had, heat issues with that Marantz running the M80s? Thoughts?

Full fidelity thanks in advance.

DR, welcome. Although the 7002 probably couldn't pass the FTC tests for an official rating at 4 ohms(5 continuous minutes at the full rated power into 4 ohms)without shutting down, it's highly unlikely that in real-world home use at sensible and safe listening levels that there would be any difficulty. This is particularly true with respect to the M80, since over a majority of its frequency range it could be rated at 8 ohms and less heat would be generated during operation in those frequencies.

IIRC, Marantz is one of the recommended receivers by Axiom for use with M80s, along with Denon, H/K, Nad, Rotel to list a few more.

Thanks JohnK and jakewash. After posting here I later sent the damping factor data from an audioholics review of the Marantz sr7002 to Brent http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/marantz-sr7002-hdmi/measurements-analysis-report and he feels the A/V shouldn't be a problem. The bind in my mind becomes the question of what the gear will sound like. In a 1600 cubic ft theatre with a vp150 and ep350, would the M80s translate into truly better sound vs the M60s, or would I hear my money. Since blind tests in my theatre with all the comparator gear is a fantasy only - any strong and reasoned opinions? Thanks Axiomites.

Hello, Doc. Well, I've owned both 60's and 80's through the years. While they are very similar in many respects and have the same sound qualities, the 80's do give you a little more in the bass category because of the larger cabinet. In addition, since you get dual tweeters and mids, they are also a little more detailed overall at all volumes. It is not a huge difference, but noticable for those that have heard both.

I really like the phrase "hear my money". Good one.

I won't dispute those folks who say they hear a difference between the two; I've heard both, but not in the same room.

And I think there is an important clarification missing from the discussion. It's not "can you tell the difference between the M60 and the M80 when only those speakers are compared?" - it seems to me that - for most people - the more relevant question is "is there a commensurate qualitative improvement in 5.1/7.1 listening when spending more to get the M80's than the M60's?"

Again, I don't KNOW "the answer". However, I would submit that the differences between the two are far more noticeable when you're NOT using center and surround speakers and when you're NOT using a sub.

Since I can't remember the last time I listened to either music or video content in 2.0, and my M60's play as loud as I want them to, I don't really have any heartburn. For me, I'd rather spend the money on other system improvements that I think make more of a difference (bigger TV, better sub, rear speakers, BFD, upgraded finish, etc.). YMMV.

Thank you one and all. There's something wonderful about strangers coming together with no other agenda but to help.

Listening to 2.1 music and 5.1 movies, it sounds like a JND if that, so I've orderd a pair of M60s. I'm confident I'll be delighted, and we'll send the M22s upstairs for duty with IPods and CBC.

Lee

Some valid points there Tom. Nuances between the two speakers would perhaps only be noticeable in 2 channel stereo and compared directly, whereas in an HT, 99% of users will have a sub working the bottom end.

On the other hand, the M60 club still does't have a secret handshake yet.....

Or maybe they do, but they're just better at keeping secrets!

I could easily tell the M60s wee more recessed than my M22Ti's without ever comparing them A/B, it is that noticeable of a drop to my Axiom trained ears. The M22v2 and M60v2 are VERY similar, IMO. My M22s are similar in SQ/tone to M80sv2, with less bass.

We'll eventually be looking for beer and asking you to help us move.