Has anyone switched from using a VP150 to an M80 for a center channel? I'm in the finishing stages of my dedicated basement theater, and I will have my Axioms (M80's w/ VP150 center) behind an acoustically transparent screen. I was thinking that since the speakers will be hidden behind the screen anyway, it might make sense to change my center to an M80 to match the L/R's. Do you guys think it's worth it? If I go for it, anyone interested in a VP150 in excellent condition :)?

There are several current and former forum members who do this. The ones who do highly recommend it. I imagine Grunt will be by soon to do so.

An M80 centre would certainly give you the perfect timbre match across the front.

3 identical speakers across the front should give you the best "matched" setup, however, you should not have issues with your VP150?

I switched over about two years ago and will never go back. I suggest you get things set up and have a listen both with the VP150 and using a phantom center (tell your receiver you don‘t have a center channel hooked up and it will play the center equally through the mains). Though not exactly like using a M80 center using a phantom center with your M80 mains will simulate what the change from the VP150 will sound like at least at the sweet spot. You may find the difference isn’t worth it for you. You could also try it with your current setup but I’ve found room characteristics play a big role in how much difference the center speaker makes.

If you do decide to make the switch this might work for you:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tradeup.html

Cheers,
Dean

P.S. Hi Ken.

Hi Dean!

I will try the phantom thing again with my m80's down in the theater. I think the last time I tried, there was not much difference...

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm still a couple weeks away (hopefully) from moving my audio gear from my family room into the theater. I think I'm probably going to go for it as I've never been completely happy with the VP150 (more for music than movies), and I've always thought that it might be because the M80's just sound so good it can't quite keep up. Or maybe it's just me. Anyway, it might be worth a try with the 30 day return policy.

Your thoughts echo mine. I can't stand horizontal center speakers for music however for movies I don’t mind quite as much though after getting use to having a vertical center I don’t like to switch back. If you’re ordering with the thought of returning it if the difference isn’t big significant then you might consider ordering an M22 at the same time. If you cross all of your front speakers over at 80Hz the M22 will sound very similar to your M80s. I prefer my front speakers crossed at 40Hz so I stuck with the M80 center.

I’m interested in reading your thoughts on it Randy. Based on my limited experience testing it out in three rooms I’ve found the farther away I am from the speakers the less difference it makes between using a vertical over horizontal center and also the less I notice any timber differences.

I've thought about having a matching center channel speaker to the mains, but it either puts your screen up too high or you have to have a perforated screen with a projector. Some people say that perforated screens are great and that there isn't any sound or picture degradation. Some say that there is. I'd like to find a place that I can compare these perforated screens and settle it for myself.

Most music listening I do is in 2-channel plus the sub. However, I do have some music DVD's done in 5.1. Maybe I will get out my Diana Krall Live in Paris DVD and try it in phantom versus 150 modes.

I wonder what it would sound like if I stacked my M22's below the screen in place of the 150, hmmm.

I don't want to get too far off of topic, but I do have my screen up (temporarily) in the theater with my old speakers (NHT Superones) behind it, just to test things out. I'm really, really happy with the sound, and that's with my old equipment. I went with a Seymor A/V screen (highly recommend if anyone is interested, I think best bang for the buck). Of course, I also did acoustic treatments in the room, but as good as things sound with my old stuff, I can't wait to get my Axioms in there. And so far, all I've been using is two channel.

That sounds like good news. Having bookshelf speakers makes it a little easier since you can place the entire speaker behind the screen. I was thinking that the best way to to setup the speakers is to have the front three completely behind the screen so that they all acoustically match with the small coloration by the screen. But, then you have to make sure that the screen is wide enough that you can get your front left and right speakers separated enough. If you go with tower speakers, like the m80's or m60's then you would have the bottom's of the speakers hanging out, which visually wouldn't look that great.

The bottom of my screen is about 16" off of the stage which is another 8" to 9" off of the floor. But I will have a panell under the screen wrapped in speaker cloth so you won't see the bottom of the speakers, and the speaker cloth is obviously acoustically transparent. I don't think that the any coloration difference between the screen material and the speaker cloth will be noticeable. At least I hope not :-).

I have had the same thoughts about using a speaker that is basically the same as the M80 as my center channel. Although the VP150 is a wonderful speaker, I have to cross it over differently than the M80s (90Hz vs 60Hz) and I can hear a difference when listening to music. A vertical mount M80 for a center is not possible with my theater layout.

I contacted Ian about a month or so ago about the possibility of constructing a custom center channel for me based on the M80. Same drivers, cabinet size and crossover, but horizontally designed with the drivers placed accordingly. To my surprise (although at this point I probably should not be!) Ian was up for the challenge.

According to Ian, the speaker has passed the computer design phase and by this point may even be fabricated. Axiom will be testing the speaker and be performing double blind listening tests before releasing it. If Axiom is satisfied with the quality, Ian may be considering releasing it as part of the product line.

I'm hoping I receive it in several weeks or so, and if I do, I will be sure to post pictures and give you all my review.

Whoa, that's darn stout.

Steve do you know the dimensions of the speaker, primarily the height? (That's a 'strike that', I read that the cabinet size would be the same.)

Cool. Of course that means I'll have to look for another TV stand with larger shelves!

Steve, I can hardly wait to see it and read your review, Axiom is quite amazing.

Can't wait to see/hear it!!

Kork, did you get my PM?

Any word on the driver configuration or size?

Same driver sizes, but I'm not sure yet on the final configuration. Ian's inital thoughts were to have the tweeters on the outsides, with the woofers towards the center.

Can't wait to hear your impressions of that beast.

Got your PM Randy. I was away from the computer yesterday. Just sent you a response. Thanks.

Yes, a TMWWMT configuration would appear to be consistent with the principles that led to the VP150 design.

I wonder if it would not be better to put the tweeters near the center, which would better center the voices to the screen. I think this is one of the main complaints of the 150 design.

Diana Krall Live in Paris has a gorgeous 2 channel track.

I think 3 M80s should be done just for the awesomeness of it.

U got that right.....

That was my initial suggestion to Ian as well, and for the exact same reason. Ian said he was inclined to put the tweeters on the outside, although he did not elaborate any further. He did say that they would try several configurations and test them all to see which configuration works best. So, the driver configurattion not yet set in stone. I'm hoping to get an update maybe this weekend since by then it will be 2 weeks since I heard they were just about ready to enter the construction and testing phase.

I want a vertical M80-like center, but at half the height. Okay, I'd even go for 2/3 the height.

Try an M60.

There's only 2 inches of difference in height.

There should be an "M40", if you will. Half an M80, same 3 drivers, but only one of each. That'll probably make it an 8 Ohm speaker, slightly less sensitive, and less power handling, but the same flat response. Wouldn't be much taller than an M22.

Seems Axiom is open to custom builds. Do it!

Well I'm glad, I guess, to know that there others of you out there like me who are interested in a little more from their center channel. I've been very happy with the VP 150 for dialogue in movies, etc, but I've always felt a bit disappointed when it came to listening to multi-channel music (DVD-Audio, SACD) and concert videos. I felt like it just couldn't quite keep up with my M80's. I'm very interested to see what Axiom is up to, although I may still just go with another M80 since it will be hidden behind the screen. We'll see.

I was just wondering why noone every bothered mentioning the step-child M50 floor standers, although just 4 inches shorter than the M80 may be the reason.

Chris, they got rid of the M40 years ago.

You have touched on point of discussion which I would agree is probably the only area that Axiom might be lacking in speaker offerings. Somewhat larger bookshelf speakers(with a couple of 6 and half inch woofers) which could also be used as a center channel in whatever speaker configuration they deem would sound the best. In the past I had Paradigm Studio 40's with a similar configuration and when I replaced them with M22s, as good as they sounded, in a home theater application at fairly loud volumes, they(M22s) strained a little at the mid-low end. That little bigger woofer seemed to make a difference(with less strain) in the transition from mid-low end to sub.

These could be also used in an LCR configuration for those that don't have the room for floor standing speakers yet for someone like myself who, for awhile now , has been "harping" about an optional larger center channel.

Well, it's a different thing that Chris is talking about. That idea came up a fair amount back when there was an M40...

Maybe MML wasn't so crazy after all...

How about a VP160 Center Channel. Lay this guy down horizontal in front of the screen and you should be in business.

Actually Rick, that's an idea, but I think I'd remove two of the tweets. Geeez, I wonder how much it weighs?

I'd certainly give it a try Adrian, and if it works out ... one above and one below the screen.

I'd definitely give one a try as a center though.

Yah, maybe just start with a single centre, eh? don't want to go overboard or anything.

SRoode Has there been any news on the M80 configured center speaker? This a definite buy for me if and when it is available.

I think there would be many of us here that would by a VP180 to match our M80s

I sent a PM to Ian but no reply yet. I'll let you all know as soon as I hear though.

I would be very interested as well for this center speaker.

You most likely will!

I got a PM back from Ian saying the speaker is in it's final listening testing phase. I was concerned about the grille since it is tapered on one side for the M80. They are tooling up for new grilles since this speaker will most likely be part of their line (sometime this year). A revised grille will be sent to me when it is in mass production.

I'll be darned ... maybe it will come to life after all.

sweet!

candy (read 'sweet candy')...as a good friend of mine once used to say!

That is exciting news! Can't wait for it to become available

Besides the grill, what about the M80's shape making the drivers angle slightly upward no matter which side it's lying on? Are they actually using the exact same cabinet, or is it going to be a VP150-ified version that makes the bottom flat?

All will be revealed in good time.


Oh, you want to know now?

Now is a good time.

Congrats on 13000, Peter.

But now is what, 4:84 AM in Canadianian time?

Canadian Ian is what we're calling him now?

Sure, why not?

I'm for it.

lol.

been a bit, any news yet ????

Last we heard they were in the final (listening) testing phase, so my guess is we're still 3 months away.

Well, I pulled the trigger and ordered a single M80 from the factory outlet that will replace my VP150 as my center channel speaker. It will be interesting to see how three M80's across the front will sound, and how much of a difference it makes. Especially looking forward to hearing some DVD-Audio/SACD material with the M80 as the center.

Anyone interested in a used VP150 in excellent condition, let me know.

That reminds me I need to run an M22 for a center for awhile, unfortunately my wife talked me into lowering the TV enough it no longer fits nicely under it

Don't let her win. Lower the floorboards!!!

She already won, the TV is hung on the wall but I still need to do a little rewiring and I might be able to talk her into raising it up as the new furniture is taller than we had thought so the TV seems a little low to me and I think she agrees. I do have enough room for an M2 center if I so desire.

Please let me know how it sounds! They are in the final phases of testing the horinontal M80 center. Ian wanted to try one last configuration: WTMMTW

They have already tested the TMWWMT and WMTTMW configurations and have been pleased with the results.

I wonder which one they'll decide on? that's pretty cool and it looks like we'll see something fairly soon. Steve, now that your an "insider" what other things is Ian working on, wink, wink

Yeah, I'll let you guys know what I think, from a novice standpoint anyway. In my first HT set-up, I had 5 exact same NHT Superone's for speakers, and I always liked how "even," not sure if that's the right word, everything sounded. I'm hoping for the same thing by using the M80 as a center channel with my other two.

Sounds like the folks at Axiom are up to something pretty exciting with the new center channel speaker prototypes however, but I didn't want to wait any longer. It is supposed to ship sometime next week, so maybe I'll get a chance to do some serious listening next weekend. I still have to move my A/V gear from it's current location into the dedicated theater which, although close, isn't quite ready for primetime yet. I may even try to A/B it with the VP150 if I have time, to see what differences there are. The VP150 is no slouch either. Either way, it should be fun. I've been waiting through over two years of construction on weekends to get to this point :-).

I wonder why Ian never tries a WWT/MWW design like so many other companies are using?

Yeah, I've already been working on a stand for this beast. If it's a disaster then I'll need to get it from Axiom when they come out with one.

I am curious too which configuration they will go with. It'd be funny if they offered more than one choice so that people could pick their design based on a personal design preference (assuming they all sounded equally or similarly good of course).

My guess though is that they will stick with the TMWWMT design to keep in consistent with the VP150. I don't particularly care as long as it sounds great, which I'm sure it will

Don't know, maybe he doesn't feel that having the tweeter above the mid driver offers any/enough benefit in DBLT's to warrant a major cabinet re-design. If this new centre is based on the M80 then I'd assume they are using the M80 cabinet, which width wise (or conversely height wise for a horizontal speaker) would not accomodate a tweeter and mid driver.

I know I've read that for horizontal speakers it is best to have the tweeter slighty offset from the rest of the drivers, but it's possible that Ian discovered no real audible advantage to this. I'm purely speculating here of course.

All those that claim the dual tweeters on the M80 are a bad design will likely cringe if Ian goes with the WMTTMW design. Double whammy: tweeter in line with drivers and dual tweeters side by side

They already cringe with the VP150's dual tweeters.

I just know that the WT/MW designs I have heard sounded more dynamic, more like standard speakers, than the VP150, it could have just been the cabinets were larger allowing for better low end effects.

If I can figure out how to mount one of these thing above my LCD rp I'm buying one!

i tried one of my double m80's horizontal and it sounded terrible, very directional... so i'm sure ian will have the best configuration for performance

Based on the listening tests I did with my 2 M22s laying horizontally if the tweeters are on the outside the “widening” of the center soundstage was even greater than the VP150. While interesting for movies it was a non-starter for music IMO. With the M22’s tweeters on the inside there was still a wall of sound but not as pronounced, more like the VP150s. However, there was noticeable lobbing with program material not just pink noise.

I was hopping that if they were going to use dual tweeters it would have been more of a WM(T/T)MW though that still wouldn’t eliminate interference between the tweeters and midranges at the crossover frequencies. IMO any horizontal array as wide as this will be is going to be a no go for me for music unless it was at least 20’ away.

We are just assuming it will go into the m80 cabinet. Maybe they will make a new cabinet altogether that allows for stacked drivers?

I also wonder if the cabinet will be more like the VP150, with one angled side and one square.

But according to SRoode they are not going the stacked driver route, so there would be no need for a new cabinet, just a slightly modified M80 cabinet.

Can it be used on either side? Would it sound the same? If so then that seems like a nice design for placement flexibility; the angled side would help eliminate the need for an angled stand for some people.

Yep, the 150 has the built-in feature of a 13° up-tilt when used on the flip side. Although you'll be reminded to turn your grill over so the Axiom logo is right side up*.



*But what about us who run our speakers naked, the logos on the tweeters will be up side down?

Who cares about orientation if they're naked?

Naked orientals, what?

As far as I know and have been involved with the project, the new speaker will be in an M80 cabinet and the drivers will be in the same horizontal plane. The only things changing are the placement of the drivers. This was in line with my request to have a center speaker that is as close to the sound of the M80 as possible.

That last sentence is music to my ears

I wonder where the front & rear ports will be located?

Just posting to see if there is a limit on the number of nested quotes?

Here's another one.

Uh oh, I've got a bad feeling about this...

Honey! I'm home! Oh, wait, I'm not married.

three[/quote]


To expedited things I edited in some extra and it looks like it broke at 10 nested quotes.

Now to get things back on topic :), my "center channel" M80 arrived last night. Boy, after having my other Axioms now for four years, I'd forgotten how exciting it is to anticipate the arrival of new speakers. I'm hoping to get it hooked up this weekend for a test run even though I'll probably have to take things apart again at some point in order to finish the theater. I've got quite a bit of finishing work to do yet, but it's so much more fun to play with new speakers. Got a new sub coming next week as well. Oh boy!

I'll try to let you know what I think, in my own, simple way.

What are the dimensions and weight? Surely it's not as wide as the floorstander is tall?! Thanks.

bluray, I believe korkster purchased an actual M80, not the "new" centre channel that is currently in the works.

I see! I was under the impression that korkster had been bestowed the honor of beta testing a prototype. If that's not the case:

1. Peter, if you are monitoring, I hereby volunteer for that role when the time is right! I suppose though, those lucky few with the new decoder rings will be first in line.

2. What does anyone guess the width of this thing will be? I can't picture it on the FMS CC, you know?

I would guess that the width is close to or the same as the M80, given that this new centre will have the same number of drivers and tweeters (not sure about the front port though). If you look at the front of the M80, there isn't much spare room.

Korkster,

Check your PM...

Dana

From what I know, it is pretty much the same cabinet as the M80s. When we talked about it in the Council, we recommended that they make a new stand specifically for it.

So I assume the stand is what's going to angle the M80 center since it will use the existing M80 cabinet?

Regarding the M80 stand I have to wonder how cost effective it would be for them to build and have the ability to offer a MSRP that is attractive to consumers. Axiom brackets and stands are pretty expensive as is. Any prices floating around?

Well, the M80 is already tapered so you'd get an automatic "built in" angle of sorts. I do agree, though, that a stand with the ability to angle would be so much more attractive (I don't mean looks) to potential customers.

That built-in angling is what I have a problem with. Maybe it really does work out to be an appropriate angle for the majority of setups, but every other speaker shoots straight except for upside-down VPs.

Maybe they will continue with the VP trend of one side straight and other side angled.

Out of curiosity, what problem did you have with the angle? Does it sound different or worse on the angled side as opposed to the straight side?

Is the MSRP on the M80 centre channel going to the be same as a regular M80? When it comes to the M80 centre channel stand, pricing of the stand is going to be very critical due to the fact it will be very difficult for placement assuming it is designed as a typical horizontal centre channel. Most rooms will not be able to accompany standard room placement and will need the stand (which is a very good idea). The cross price elasticity will be very crucial.

IMO I would look at price elasticity and cross price elasticity of past products (like the VP150, stand) in relation to changes in the US exchange rate or another approach the external value which reflect world wide price changes in Axiom products.

Maybe something discuss at your next council. You don't want consumers final decision to not buy the M80 centre channel because they feel the stand is too expensive.

Great points doc. I understand for development cost (which affects end price) considerations why Axiom might go the route of using the identical enclosure as the floorstander and just arraying the drivers differently, but I would rather pay a bit more for the new center to get an enclosure with one flat and one angled side. With two angled sides, the ONLY non-stand deployment option will be on a shelf BELOW the monitor. No stand of any kind will work in my environment; I do have shelf space, but it's above my monitor.

Oh, oh, just to clarify, I've had no specific problems with angled speakers. It simply seems inconsistent to not adapt the cabinet for center channel duty by making it level on one side. I thought it had been stated that they were using the existing M80 cabinet, but my memory has been known to have dropouts.

I think I'd accommodate a normal M80 as my center before going for a horizontal one, but I look forward to hearing impressions. Right now I'm pretty happy with my M22.

If I were to guess (and this is all that it is) is that Axiom probably has increasing economies of scale in speaker production (with standard vinyl finishes). The great thing here if this is the case, the M80 centre channel will use all the same parts (enclosure, drivers, tweeters etc) so there is little in R&D costs other than the time and materials to come up with the orientation of the drivers, tweeters and mabye changes to the crossover. For the M80 centre channel I assume this will be very cost effective for them even if they make minor changes for an angled cabinet (this is the area where I hope savings can be passed onto the consumer). Placement, development and need for the stand is probably where it gets tricky and where the consumer takes on extra added cost and can have an affect on their purchasing decisions.

None of their other centres are angled on both sides so I highly doubt this new one will be either.

I hope you are right. If so, they'll have my sale day one.

Veering off this angled/flat topic for a moment, when contemplating a very wide center channel as this will be, would it make sense for the tweeters to be centered rather than at the flanks? I have just a 37 inch (measured diag.) display; you want voices seeming to emerge from the image, no?

I'm wondering which way they will go on this too. My guess is they will put the tweeters on the ends, so just make sure your mains are far enough apart and you sit far enough back.

Centering the tweeters would allow the mains to be placed closer together and allow you to sit closer to the front, but I don't know if there will be any undesirable lobing or combing effects as a result.

I'm pretty sure cost savings would be very marginal for Axiom to use the exact same cabinet shape on an VPM80 vs an M80, never mind it probably not being the right choice(2 angles) for a CC. The driver cutouts will be located differently than the floorstanders anyway, therefore requiring a different CNC program, so it's no biggie to make the cabinet in true VP fashion(one side angled, one side flat).

I also wondered about the width of a potential VPM80 and how tweeter placement would affect the character of it. I'm sure Axiom will make several varying prototypes, test them in their anechoic sound room, blind test them, and make the best choice based on their results.

It's been 80 days since I contacted Ian about constructing one for my theater. The wait is driving me mental!

Sign me up for some beta testing of a center M80. It would even fit on my TV stand perfectly