Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610?

Posted by: fullerms

Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/07/10 09:50 AM

Hi all,

I currently own a Denon 1610 AVR, and am planning to invest in a set of Axiom HT speakers. Floor standers will be nice, but I want to make sure that my receiver can handle the load.

I am looking for a couple of options for HT packages which I can use with my current AVR, and be future proof when I upgrade to more powerful electronics.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/07/10 09:56 AM

Welcome to the forum!

Your Denon will drive any of the Axiom speakers.

The determining factors for "which speakers?" would be the material you listen to, the size of the room, and how loud you like it!
Posted by: fredk

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/07/10 06:58 PM

...and whether or not you want the secret decoder ring. ;\)
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/07/10 07:39 PM

Thanks for the responses guys. I am considering a pair of M50v2s for the fronts, VP150 In-wall centre and a pair of QS8 surrounds.

Will this be a well balanced setup? I will buy the sub locally.

Suggestions please.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/07/10 09:39 PM

MS, welcome. Your question appears to indicate that you think that a bigger speaker requires more power. This isn't the case, and in the same line of speakers the bigger ones are quite often a little more sensitive and require less power than the smaller bookshelves. Depending on how loud of a listening level you use at your usual location, the 1610 may be fully sufficient for any of the Axiom floor-standers and nothing more powerful would be needed.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/08/10 02:39 AM

Ok thanks for the feedback on the AVR. What do you guys think of the speaker package? Any room for improvement or cost saving?


I am considering a pair of M50v2s for the fronts, VP150 In-wall centre and a pair of QS8 surrounds.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/08/10 04:11 AM

My suggestion, since you're going to be using a good sub, is to go with the M22s rather than the M50s.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/08/10 10:59 AM

Will keep that in mind. However, I read on AVSforums that a satellite - sub package cannot compensate for a good pair of floor standers when playing stereo music.

The reason given was that a sub cannot faithfully reproduce the finer details of low frequency music with the finesse of a floor stander.

Any comments on that?
Posted by: alan

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/08/10 11:44 AM

Hi fullerms,

The reason given is misguided. The "nuances" and finer details of deep bass frequencies are in fact reproduced by the upper bass and midrange drivers in a satellite speaker.

For example, an acoustic bass used in jazz and orchestral music has a lowest frequency of about 40 Hz, and the subwoofer will reproduce that with great authority, but the "plucking" snapping sound and most of the harmonics occur in the upper bass and midrange, well above the subwoofer's range, will be handled by the satellite bookshelf speakers. In most systems you set the crossover frequency at or near 80 Hz, so bass energy above that frequency (the nuances and finer details. . .) is handled by the satellite speakers.

If a satellite speaker is very small with limited bass output below 200 Hz, then you may have a hole in the response, but Axiom's bookshelf speakers (M22, M2, M3) all have smooth output to the crossover region of 80 Hz and lower.

Using a floorstanding main speakers will often give you a "fuller" upper bass sound, which you may prefer, but in terms of realistic reproduction of big orchestral works, piano, jazz, etc in moderate-sized to smaller rooms, I find a good subwoofer like Axiom's EP350 or EP500 coupled to a pair of M22s lack nothing in terms of refinement and nuances. Larger floorstanders of course will play louder in bigger rooms and at very high volume than bookshelf speakers. Consider those factors as well.

The M50s are quite nice somewhat "laid-back" (i.e. not quite as detailed) speakers, with excellent bass and not quite as revealing treble compared to the M22s.

Regards,
Alan
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/08/10 11:58 AM

On AVS when they say satellite speaker, it seems to me they mean a vary small speaker, ala BOSE, ORB etc. and yes these small speakers will not sound as good as true bookshelf and floorstanding speakers like Axiom produces.

For a better matched system I would run M22/M60/M80s for the front mains and the exact same as a center if possible. If a horizontal center is required/desired then any of Axiom's center spekears will work great. I have the VP100 and 150 and there is little difference between them other than a slightly lower FR with the 150 and it also has the ability to playback a little louder for larger rooms. And to round it off the QS8s for surround channels.

Are you looking for a subwoofer as well? If so I would recommend the EP350 or higher from Axiom as the smaller subs just don't cut it for HT, IMO. They lack the driver size to really move some air for good LFE.

I am not sure, have you ever stated the room size this system will be going in?
Posted by: alan

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/08/10 02:44 PM

Hi Jakewash,

Yes, I'd agree with you and since I don't frequent AVS forums, thanks for adding your comments on the very small sat/sub systems a la Orb, Bose, etc. which very often do exhibit a pronounced "hole" in the spectrum and are not in the same league as the Axioms.

I don't think he stated the room size, listening distance and volume preferences which of course can vary dramatically from one person to the next and thus affect the choice of speakers.

Alan
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/08/10 06:26 PM

Floor plan uploaded here all dimensions in millimetres.

The console will be on the side wall as shown, and listener to console distance will be about 8 ft. Any suggestions for this setup?
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/08/10 10:11 PM

As Alan points out, the comment on the AVS forum re a sub and "finer details" is total nonsense and illustrates a misunderstanding of how musical detail is delivered. Again, with a good sub, the M22 is suggested for musical enjoyment.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/09/10 10:42 AM

Ok guys, you got me sold. M22s for LCR and a sub it is. Was thinking of M22v2s for LR and a M22 on-wall for centre. Rears will be a pair of QS8v2s. Will reuse a sub I have.

What do you think of this setup? Any suggestions based on my floor plan?
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/09/10 11:43 AM

Yikes, that is one tough floorplan to set up for HT. looks like you may need to use stands for the QS8's or ceiling mount them. Is the TV going to be in the console or just the av gear?

My first suggestion would be to have the TV and LCR on the left hand (4100mm) wall in the Living/dining room that is the most central in the floor plan and then you could have the surrounds mounted on the backwall to the sides of the listening position or flip it 180 deg.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/09/10 06:44 PM

Hi Jake,

I like your suggestion, but the wife said no \:\( Actually, thats the area reserved for dining. The entertainment console needs to be where I have marked it. The Tv will be wall mounted, andthe AV gear will be placed in the console.

The fronts will be on either side of the console, probably at a distance of 3 feet on both sides. Thinking of getting a on-wall M22 for the centre. Read my previous post.

The surrounds will be wall mounted on either side of corridor leading to the bedrooms - (1200 mm ) Must depend on Audyssey to make the necessary corrections for distance.

Will a combination of M22s and QS8s be good enough for this room size, or should I consider other options?
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/09/10 07:32 PM

The M22's and QS8s will work great and sorry to hear about the WAF as that would have been a much better location IMO. The seating in the other position will be tough to set up for surrounds.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/09/10 09:16 PM

Where does one fix the surrounds in a 5.1 setup? Behind the listener, or on the sides? What would be the best position for the QS8s?
Posted by: fredk

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/09/10 09:33 PM

The best location for the surrounds is to the side and slightly behind the seating position ~3 feet above ear level.

The QS8 is designed to disperse sound well, so it has a lot more flexibility in placement. There are a number of people here who have them ceiling mounted.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/17/10 12:16 PM

Hi all,

What would be the best LCR combination for a good soundstage?

Please vote.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/17/10 12:18 PM

Three matching speakers are always your best bet... space allowing.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/17/10 09:32 PM

Ditto.
Posted by: bdpf

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/17/10 11:15 PM

The vote result speaks for itself ;\)
Posted by: bdpf

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/17/10 11:17 PM

 Originally Posted By: fredk
...and whether or not you want the secret decoder ring. ;\)

Never got one of those ;\)
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/21/10 09:13 PM

Do the front 3 have to be at the same height? I'm planning to wall mount my tv, and I'm not sure whether I will be able to stand mount the centre under the tv due to height restrictions.

If that is the case, can I stand mount the LR speakers and put the centre on a low console?
Will that work, or am I better off with a horizontally mounted VP150? Or can I place a regular M22 horizontally?

All this planning is driving me nuts. Thanks for the support so far guys.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/21/10 09:16 PM

Do the front 3 have to be at the same height? I'm planning to wall mount my tv, and I'm not sure whether I will be able to stand mount the centre under the tv due to height restrictions.

If that is the case, can I stand mount the LR speakers and put the centre on a low console?
Will that work, or am I better off with a horizontally mounted VP150? Or can I place a regular M22 horizontally?

All this planning is driving me nuts. Thanks for the support so far guys.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/21/10 10:02 PM

MS, the tweeters of all three should if possible be at ear level. If this isn't possible, such as for the center speaker, a good result can still be had if the center speaker is tilted so that the tweeter points at the ears.
Posted by: grunt

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/22/10 12:42 AM


Iíve done exactly what John has suggested with my M80 center here in my house. Whenever Iíve put my mains up on milk crates to elevate them. Having the mains a little higher (above furniture) seems to help them better fill the whole room with sound and blend better with the surrounds but that assumes having an open area behind the seating. From what Iíve noticed the center channel doesnít seem to benefit from this plus itís under my screen and canít be elevated. Tilting it back so that the drivers of the center that correspond to the drivers on the mains that are nearest ear level are pointed at my ears keeps the timbre even across the front. Though it goes against conventional wisdom in my experience itís actually more important to have the midrange divers near each other than the tweeters, though when you have one you usually have the other.

Keep in mind that you can always mount a speaker upside-down. Iíve done that when demoing my M22s against my M80s. I just put them upside-down on top of the M80s and they sounded no different than when right-side-up at the same level. I also ran my M80 center upside-down above the screen in relation to my right-side-up M80 mains. This worked great with no variations in the soundstage as things panned across the front. I actually prefer this arrangement because it produced a ďwall of soundĒ (due to spreading out the drivers vertically) but w/o interfering with the horizontal placement of instruments and singers in well made recordings. It does create a slight vertical effect which in some recordings made it sound like the vocalist in the center channel was on a dais, but it was subtle.

In your case if the center is right-side-up under your screen I would try putting the mains upside-down on the stands to either side. At 8 feet the same distance I was from my upside-down M80 in my apartment your M22s should sound just fine.

Cheers,
Dean
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/23/10 07:29 PM

If I have to place the centre horizontally due to space retrictions, which would be my best bet? A M22 or a VP150?
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/23/10 07:33 PM

The VP150 is designed to be placed horizontally. I don't believe you'd get a good result from a horizontal M22.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/24/10 02:26 AM

WHat Ken said + I have tried the M22 as a single center placed horizontally and it doesn't sound too bad from the sweet spot but the rest of the seating suffers greatly as the M22 is designed for horzontal dispersion which when layed flat is now vertical dispersion and the VP series is designed for the best of both worlds.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/28/10 09:33 AM

Ok Three Vertical M22s or M22 + VP 150 combo depending on the available space.

Surrounds - QS4s or QS8s?

Which sub? I will not be buying Axiom subs, so suggestions on other brands like SVS will be appreciated.

I have uploaded a floor plan in the first page, please base your suggestions on that.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/28/10 12:04 PM

3 M22's and QS8's would be the best, IMO. Take your pick on any sub from Hsu, SVS, Outlaw Audio, Elemental Designs, Epik, they all are getting great reviews. Even Axiom's subs are a good bang for the buck (EP350 and up) now that the rest have increased their pricing over the past few years while Axiom has pretty much stood still.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/28/10 08:54 PM

I don't live in the US, so my choices are a little limited. Brands like Svs, wharfedale, b&w, monitor audio, polk, velodyne, mordaunt short and tannoy are some of the brands available locally.

Please help me with suggestion on brand / model and I will audition them locally.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/29/10 01:44 AM

From that list, I'd suggest that you consider the SVS PB12-NSD(or the PC12-NSD cylinder); fine subs at a fair price(at least they are in the U.S. at $599).
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/29/10 02:18 AM

Any Paradigm dealers around? Their DSP series is a good deal IMO and they sound very similar to Axiom's own subs.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/30/10 12:00 AM

I checked the local prices of the Paradigm DSP 3200 and the SVS PB-12NSD. They are selling for about 785 USD with local warranty. Thats about half the price of the EP500!.

Is the EP500 worth the additional 600 USD? If so, how and why?

Related question on the Axiom Subs. Can they take 220 Volts?
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 06/30/10 02:08 AM

I am going with the idea that this system is for HT first and music second:

The 500 is better than either the 3200 or the 12nsd, IMO. The 12-NSD is better than the 3200 at least for HT. The 12-nsd has a bit of a bump in FR at 50-60hz and it hits quite hard because of it. It makes music a little unnatural, at least to me. I think the Paradigm 3400 is more on par with the 12-nsd only smoother and the 500 would be that much stronger than either one IMO. Only you can decide if it is really worth the extra money.

Having said that I think you would be very happy with any of the subs you have mentioned. Have you considered the EP350 from Axiom? I think the EP350 is Axiom's best deal, it is a great sub and does very well with either music or movies, nearly the equal to the EP500, again IMO.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/03/10 07:17 AM

I dont live in the US. Asked around a few dealers, and these are the local prices converted to USD

SVS PB 12 NSD = 790 USD
SVS PB 12 Plus = 1615 USD
SVS SB 12 Pus = 1004 USD

Paradigm DSP 3200 = 790 USD

Axiom EP 500 after shipping and taxes = 1475 USD
Axiom EO 350 after shipping and taxes = 908 USD

Which one would you guys recommend as most value for money? I am looking for a sub that does well in both music and HT.
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/07/10 04:34 AM

anyone? Bump.....
Posted by: Ichigo_Kurosaki

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/07/10 08:00 AM

Why don't you give a try to the 350? If you don't like you can always send it back to Axiom. I cannot give you a more detailed answer since I am still waiting for my speakers to be shipped. I guess most regular forum users have been busy, since I noticed that there are very few new topics and answers to old ones.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/07/10 12:16 PM

Originally Posted By: fullerms
I dont live in the US. Asked around a few dealers, and these are the local prices converted to USD

SVS PB 12 NSD = 790 USD
SVS PB 12 Plus = 1615 USD
SVS SB 12 Pus = 1004 USD

Paradigm DSP 3200 = 790 USD

Axiom EP 500 after shipping and taxes = 1475 USD
Axiom EO 350 after shipping and taxes = 908 USD

Which one would you guys recommend as most value for money? I am looking for a sub that does well in both music and HT.


I don't know how many people have been able to audition all of those, but based on specs alone the best deal for you seems to be the SVS PB12 NSD. If size is an issue and you want to keep it as small as possible, then the SVS SB12+ would fit the bill.

If you can stretch your budget to even cosider the PB12+ or EP500, then I'd personally go with Axiom's EP500 instead because it has similar specs to the PB12+ but has the added feature of being DSP controlled AND is still cheaper by $140. That would be my choice personally; I like to get the best/most I can in a sub since I don't tend to upgrade subs frequently.
Posted by: Potatohead

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/07/10 01:48 PM

I agree, PB12 NSD would be my choice in that price range, EP500 in it's price range.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/10/10 12:02 AM

Best bang for the buck IMO, is Paradigm 3200 or PB12nsd. I favor the Paradigm DSP 3200 over the PB12nsd due to DSP and it's linear output but either one would most likely make you happy.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/10/10 10:40 AM

Take the following with a grain of salt since it's just the (quality checked) aggregation of what I read over the last year or two.

the SVS NSD is considered to be a great value for movie use, but maybe not so much for music. The downsides for music (all hotly debated but they seem to match my limited experience) are (a) relatively more output comes from the port & cabinet so rapid bass not as "tight" (doesn't cut off as fast), and (b) frequency response not quite as flat (haven't looked at charts so less sure about this one).

I have an SVS PC Plus (cylinder, not box, bought before the high end Axiom subs came out) and am happy with it - if I were buying now I would probably try an EP500 and would expect to be happier in some ways (flatter frequency response, probably better with music, hard to overdrive) and less happy in other ways (probably can't produce quite as much output as the PB Plus).

I don't know anything about the SB12 other than that it presumably is a sealed box sub so peak output will probably be lower unless it has a huge honkin' amp (it might). Should be good for music though.

If you want a very crude ranking loaded with all kinds of stereotypes (but probably not wrong), based on the prices above, I would suggest something like :

Best value for movies - SVS NSD

Similar to NSD for movies, better for music - EP350, SB Plus

EP500 and PB Plus would both be a step up, with EP500 maybe a bit better for music and PB Plus maybe a bit better for movies (this is getting even more tenuous).

Remember this is free advice and worth every penny wink

EDIT - I should mention that I have never been particularly happy playing music with a sub and tend to listen with the sub switched off. Not sure if that is because I don't have the right sub yet, because I need to tinker more with placement + crossover settings, or if my ears are just used to the response curve I get without a sub.

FWIW I'm running :

HT system - M60s, VP180, QS8s plus M2s waiting to be hooked up as rear surrounds

Music system - M40s (discontinued 2 way, like M3 but tower cabinet)
Posted by: fullerms

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/12/10 03:11 AM

Ok thanks guys. Will try to audition those subs locally before posting again.

On a side note, can someone please measure the height of the Tweeter of the M22 from the base? If I'm placing the M22s on a console, then I need to ensure that I have the right dimensions in order to get the tweeters to ear height.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Which Axiom HT package for Denon 1610? - 07/12/10 04:49 AM

MS, the center of the tweeter dome is 17 1/2" from the enclosure base, but you really don't have to be that precise in having the tweeters at about ear height.
Posted by: fullerms

Sub update - 07/13/10 03:40 AM

I auditioned the paradigm dsp 3200, but was not impressed. This is partly due to the dealer's inept handling of the setup. I had too many interruptions while he kept 'tuning' the sub. Then he insisted that I listen to his 'recommended tracks'. That did it for me.

Went to another dealer to audition the Svs, but they had a broken unit. Auditioned a Velodyne CHT-10Q instead. Must say the Velodyne sounded pretty good. The price is also within my budget.
What do you guys think of the Velodynes?
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Sub update - 07/13/10 03:15 PM

Too bad about the DSP3200 I quite like them.

The only time I had a Velodyne in my system was with the DLS-5000R and it was just boomy(in my house and at a friends), better than the sub I had at the time but no where near the quality of SVS, Axiom and the like. My understanding is that with Velodyne you have to pay much more to get the same kind of quality as with Axiom, SVS, Hsu etc.

Having said all that, if you liked the Velodyne and it is within your budget then I would get it, but first check out some other possiblities.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: Sub update - 07/13/10 05:43 PM

I would also try a different Paradigm dealer and have another listen of the DSP3200, also try the 3400 if you are able. Imo, they are decent subs for the coin.