New installation of home in construction

Posted by: mrspeeed

New installation of home in construction - 07/10/11 11:09 AM

Firstly I've been reading this forum on/off for years and want to say thanks for all the posters for making this forum enjoyable.

I need some advice on a new set up while I am building my home. Here are some facts:

1. I live the Cayman Islands so access to gear is an issue
2. We are building a home which has ICF concrete walls with 3" of foam on both the inside and outside of the wall
3. We are building a long rectangle open concept living room (17*15*9), dining room (17*12*9) and kitchen (17*15,*9)
4.Instead of installing my current pioneer elite system (VSX94 and mission speakers..which i love) these are going to the master bedroom only because I don't like the elite's multi-room functionality.
5. I will be buying a Denon receiver and BR player because I can buy them locally.
6. I will be buying a full complement of axiom speakers for living room and master and putting my missions into storage/rec room
7. Goal is to make the install as invisiable as possible. However I will be buying the 80's, 180 which will be in plain view (likely getting the walnut, natural finish)
8. I will be running some outdoor speakers around the deck for the pool area
10. I was thinking of integrating an Emotiva XPA-5 or similar to power the front/center
11. all fronts, sub(s) and center will be pre wired in the wall ready for bi-amping/level line in (as needed)

Here is what I was going to do:
1. Living room 7.1/.2 - 80's, 180, inwall m3, and look to find some in ceiling speakers for the surrond backs. In ceilings are a must as they will almost be in the dining room area or at least the walk way betwen the couch and dining area
2. Master 5.1 - inwall 100, 22, and in-ceiling.

What I need help with:
1. Can I mix the 4ohm 80's with the m3 if I use the denon 3312CI? Idealy I would like to use the 4312CI whenever it is released. would your answer be different if I used the Emotiva?
2. The surrond sides must be in-wall. Should I go with M3, M2 or M22? I can't use any on-wall Q's.
3. Any suggestions for aimable inceiling speakers or can the M2 or M3 be used in ceiling?
4. I currently have 2 subs for my 2 current systems. A HSU VFT something (in storage now) and a monitor audio radius 360 (in use now as we are renting a condo while building). For asthetics I might put some axiom subs to match the finish of the m80's and 180 but I do like my HSU even if I only have one. Any advice on axioms subs as I know little.
5. anything else - advise on bi-amp set up, etc.

Thanks.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/10/11 01:31 PM

1) yes, any receiver can drive a combination of 4, 6, or 8ohm nominal ohm rated speakers, especially Denon. For those room sizes, you probably don't need an extra amp, the Denon is fine.
2) to bad you can't Q's why? A matching finish to the fronts would look killer. Bookshelfs can't envelope you in surround effects like the Q's. But whatever your reason, any of those inwall versions will be fine.
3) For surrounds, side or rear, I am not a fan of ceiling speakers, the defeat the whole purpose of why you have surrounds.
4) If your willing to have a sub in the room for asthetics and matching finish, why not surrounds? Anyway, subs are not as particular for matching sound, but a lot depends on your budget, the 350 on up are good choices.
5) I would not waste your time on biamping or biwiring.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/10/11 10:27 PM

Speedie, welcome.

1. There's no problem with using speakers having different impedance ratings. A receiver such as the 3312 should have no problem driving the speakers which you've listed to very high listening levels at typical home listening distances.

2. It's unclear why the side surrounds "must" be in-wall, since QSs really take up little more room and add significantly to the surround effect. If so, though, the M2s or M22s would be suggested to more closely match the M80s.

3. Again here, a question would be whether instead of actual in-ceiling speakers you'd be opposed to suspending QSs or other Axioms just below the ceiling. Many of our members, including Randy, use a ceiling mount for surrounds.

4. The subs that you have(depending to some extent on exactly what the Hsu is)should be sufficient, although two Axiom EP350s would certainly be excellent. Looking at the large front speakers and possible multiple subs, it isn't immediately apparent why, in contrast, the surrounds must be concealed, even at the expense of the best surround listening experience.

5. Actual bi-amping is almost never done for home setups, because of the complication and expense involved. Two separate amplifiers(receivers have no ability to bi-amp)are required with an external electronic crossover in front of them so that each gets only the desired frequency range to amplify. The internal crossovers in the speakers are removed or at least bypassed. None of the items that you've mentioned would accomplish this.
Posted by: Brent

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/11/11 02:20 PM

The guys are bang on with there assesment

your total cubic volume of the area is slightly less than 6500 cubic feet - I would recommend the use of dual subwoofers within the area - dual EP350's would be a good choice

it is unlikely that you will hear any difference to performance by bi-wiring - bi-amping should be passed

select the M2/M22 in-wall for your surrounds if the QS series cannot be used - you could also utilize the M2 as a ceiling speaker

there would be no worries utilizing the Denon to drive the system, the Emotiva would add power, always a good thing

call the toll free number, 1.866.244.8796 should you want to discuss your options further.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/11/11 10:24 PM

Some people have had problems with emotiva and the m80's. Stick with the denon and you should be fine. You can add external amplification later if you need to but I wouldn't assume you need to right away.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 01:01 AM

I think the newer Emo's are playing just fine with M80's now, there are many on Emotiva's forum running this setup with out issue now.
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 06:44 AM

SirRandy, thank you very much for your time replying.

As for the Q's...over the years I'm made due to non-custom installs with wires running everywhere, speakers with brackets on the wall, etc. Since then my wife has demanded the rear speakers be out of sight - period. Also, but but to a much lesser degree, i listen to a lot of multi channel music and prefer direct radiating speakers. Either way my wife trumps me in this case.
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 06:55 AM

John K,

Thanks for the welcome and reply!

2. - purely a wife issue. I have the floor plan I could post but dont know how. Thanks for confirming to go m2 or m22's. This is very helpful.

3. I am not a fan of in-ceiling speakers. I friend of mine installed a purely inceiling paradigm (including fronts and center!!!) and I just shake my head. But since these would only be the 6 & 7 channel I can live with it. I can't for the 4 & 5.

4. My wife is ok with a "wall" of front speakers. This will be at the end of the open concept room.

5. Thanks. My elite allows for a bi-amping mode for the 6&7th channel to then go to the fronts. I remove the jumpers and wire. I've never done a a/b test to see if there really is a difference but I use 5.1 for now so I'd be wasting those channels anyway. I wont waste them in the new set up as it will be 7.1/.2 plus I need to make sure I can power the exteriors. I can do it with a separate amp. Either way because of the assistance given thus far I will abandon the external amp to power the fronts, center.

Thanks again.
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 07:06 AM

Brent,

Thanks for spending your time in replying. Luckily I vacation in Northern Ontario so I've been to the axiom shop. My wife and I did a little tour last year so I can visually see what boston cherry looks like (very similar to my missions rosewood) and how big the various speakers are. I will definately call the number when I am ready to order of go to the shop again since I will be nearby in another month. Amy (I belive) will be happy I've finally bought some speakers since I've been dealing with her about getting some here for about 6 years.

I will look at the EP350. Sounds like the way I want to go.

I will definately look at the m2 for the inceiling speaker.

Once again thank you!
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 07:08 AM

David,

Thanks for replying. I will wait then and everybody feels the denon has adequate power for the m80's (which I suspected base on my reading of other posts over the years).

Best regards.
Posted by: cb919

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 11:58 AM

Originally Posted By: mrspeeed


I will look at the EP350. Sounds like the way I want to go.



Just a thought - the EP500 and EP350 share the same size box, but you get a bit better performance with the EP500. Dual 500's would be pretty awesome too. cool
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 01:02 PM

Jason, good to know emotiva is working well with m80's. I might have to look into their amps again at some point. For now, I'm perfectly happy with how my denon 3808 is driving things though. Once I move into a larger room and add a vp180 I may consider external amplification.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: cb919


Just a thought - the EP500 and EP350 share the same size box, but you get a bit better performance with the EP500. Dual 500's would be pretty awesome too. cool


Too bad they aren't the same price too wink
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 01:24 PM

Yeah, tell me about it.
Posted by: cb919

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 04:35 PM

I know, that's why I only have one. It's much easier spending someone elses money! grin
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 07:34 PM

Dual ep500 might be overkill. i will need to think about a single 500 vs 350 *2. This seems to be a fairly common debate.
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 08:00 PM

SirRandy,

I mention to my wife that the Q's were still being recommended. She said you all must hate her. Seems like the m2/m22 it is then.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 08:37 PM

I can understand for a living room, my wife doesn't want Q's either, but for the dedicated theater it was my choice. smile They really look nice flat on a wall and don't take up much room. You can also get a custom finish that will match your house trim/woodworking. But, you want to stay married I guess. smile
Posted by: jakewash

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 08:41 PM

I can't even get real speakers into our living room, my wife likes her Sounddock as it takes up very little space. Luckily I still have my bonus room area and my Axiom's which are sounding great with the 3808 at "11" as the wife and kids are out for a couple of hours. smile
Posted by: JohnK

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/12/11 09:47 PM

Speedie, tell your wife that we're concerned about her listening enjoyment, and that once she's heard the effect of QS surrounds she'd never want to go back, especially when she sees how small and unobtrusive they really are.
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/13/11 11:13 AM

Yes staying married is critical given the size of our building loan - not to mention besides the speakers thing she is a pretty cool wife.
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/13/11 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By: JohnK
Speedie, tell your wife that we're concerned about her listening enjoyment, and that once she's heard the effect of QS surrounds she'd never want to go back, especially when she sees how small and unobtrusive they really are.


Lol, well at least you made me laugh.
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/13/11 11:23 AM

What is this sounddock thing you speak of? wink
Posted by: jakewash

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/22/11 02:17 AM

sounddock = something that Blose wink

Actually I don't mind it that much, just not the same quality as my Axiom system.
Posted by: terzaghi

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/22/11 10:56 PM

QS8's in my living room and my wife doesn't mind. I didn't really give her an option to choose something else though....
Posted by: mrspeeed

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/26/11 11:05 AM

Well I think I shot myself in the foot when I used to rig up some ad hoc wall mounts for my mission 701's many moons ago. Now nothing can go on wall - just in.

However she has no issues to the 80's and 180. So I still consider myself lucky.
Posted by: Adrian

Re: New installation of home in construction - 07/26/11 02:23 PM

At the risk of sending you to the doghouse, mrspeed....

If you can run the wiring unseen through the walls, I'll put it out there that the QS8's may in fact, have better waf than any of the bookshelf speakers for surround duty. The Q's, aside from being more suited to their intended use, are actually very compact and unobtrusive(imo) when hung up on the wall. As mentioned already, you can get a custom finish, or go with a paintable finish to make them all but disappear.