Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF

Posted by: TriggerHappy

Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/14/11 10:39 PM

Hi all nubie here. I just stumbled on Axiom a couple of days ago but so far am liking what I am hearing. I am thinking of getting a pair of M22s but I have a couple of challenges that I am hoping for advice on.

First current set-up: ProAc Tablette 50s run with a Rotel 1060 integrated amp, Rotel RCD 971. Also have a SONOS ZP90 (just got it and hoping to go all digital!) I use as a dedicated stereo system (movie watching is done in the basement and I have a dedicated theatre downstairs)

Challenge 1: Wife - zero footprint requirement

Challenge 2: room size is large, joined family room and kitchen/dinnete with open staircase, cathedral ceiling... 3000-4000 cubic feet plus I estimate. The tablettes sound ok when sitting in position but get lost when anywhere else.

Challenge 3: have to deal with a poorly designed fireplace, entertainment area. The fireplace is in the centre of the wall with the entertainment unit area in the corner. Tried posting a pic but don't see how...

I like the Idea of the m22s as high WAF and I could mount them just above the fire place. But I am not sure how impressive they will sound given the size of the room. I could add a sub but the 1060 doesn't have a sub out (so not sure if it is possible).

the M60 M80 would be the best option but would not fly with the wife and truthfully would block out half the TV when viewing at an angle.

The ideal option would be in cabinet but that would involve renovations (the creation of a cabinet, narrowing the entertainment area, moving the TV above the fireplace, etc..

Help advice would be greatly appreciated!
Posted by: Da_Gimp_Pimp

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/14/11 10:58 PM

Welcome to the forum,TriggerHappy. I'm about to go to sleep so I only have a moment to assist you with posting pictures on this forum.

First you need to upload the picture(s) to a photo hosting site like Photobucket . Then you grab the link from that site and post it in the message, utilizing the "enter an image" function above the message composition window.

Peace,
Cam
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/14/11 11:50 PM

why not use the pre-outs on the 1060 to provide a signal to a subwoofer, just use the lowpass filter in the subs amp.... let the crossover in the amp do its job.

This is essentially what i am doing with my processor.. My balanced inputs for my L/R speakers go to my amps.. For my L/R subs, i am using the RCA output to provide a signal to the subs. i am not using the cross over in the processor at all.


Also keep in mind, you can get a "real wood" finish, this way you can get a finish that your wife may find more acceptable.

I am no expert, but the M22's seem kind of small for that size of a room.. Maybe Brent or JC will give their input, also do not hesitate to call axiom, both Brent and JC are great guys and the company philosophy is to not over sell. They strive to get you the "correct" product, many people have shared their experience about being talked down in size.

Good luck with your decision.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 01:24 AM

Trig, welcome. You haven't really stated specifically what you're hoping to accomplish with a change of speakers. The implication seems to be that an ability to play louder is wanted. The loudness level experienced depends primarily on the listening distance, not the room size(a room doesn't get "filled" with sound at equal levels), and it isn't possible to move a considerable distance away from the usual listening position without the level dropping significantly.

Since the M22s have two mid-woofers slightly larger than the one in the T50 and a larger tweeter, they would have the capacity for a greater dynamic range(the larger enclosure isn't relevant beyond the deep bass)at any given distance. This is about all that can be really said.

A sub would be highly desirable for greater bass extension and to take some load off the main speakers, but your 1060 has no crossover provisions and subs don't either, having just a low-pass filter for a roll-off above the set frequency. The mains would still have to run full range. As far as simply providing a signal feed to the sub from your 1060, that can be done either by using the full-range pre-outs(if the sub has two line level inputs)or by using the B speaker terminals to connect with speaker wire to the sub's speaker level inputs(if present).
Posted by: Murph

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 07:54 AM

Hey Trigger, Welcome.

The On-Wall M22s may provide another option for you, as opposed to the in-cabinet models. I have never heard them or your current speakers so I can not say how they would compare in sound quality or how well off-axis they perform.

I know CatBrat has two pairs of these on a wall and pictures are posted in a couple of places, which I can't seem to find. Admittedly, I did not look very hard.

While Johnk is correct about volume levels, distance, and angles... Smaller speakers might not play as cleanly at the higher volume levels required to get the desired levels at distant points. A more powerful speaker (and equally capable amp combined) that is capable of playing cleaner (less distortion) at louder levels will do a better job in a large room if you are trying to get a louder volume level at the distant points.

Also, as John alluded to, some speakers will perform better off-axis than others but you will never be able to replicate the wonderful stereophonic experience of sitting in the middle of two stereo speakers, once you move to the outside.

I'm not sure if either of the above is what you are describing as your problem but I hope it helps.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 08:07 AM

Click on my signature link for the pictures. Granted, my setup probably does not have the WAF. But it's just me and the cat. You did mention that your equipment sits in a corner arrangement, so the on-wall method probably wouldn't work there. If you went the M22 route, you might be able to mount them on the wall using brackets supplied by Axiom to turn and angle the speakers forward. I use one of these brackets on the M2 that is mounted above my tv. Personally, I think the bookshelf M22's sound a bit better than the on-wall version anyway.
Posted by: cb919

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 09:13 AM

Welcome Triggerhappy,
I don't have much to add except to say that M22's on swiveling wall brackets and a good sub sounds like your most viable option (without knowing specific details). I am also a long time Sonos user and love my Axioms as well. You'll find this ragtag group of forum members will be most helpful in suggesting solutions for your questions.

Cheers,
Posted by: Murph

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:01 AM

Thanks Cat, I didn't see the "corner placement".
Posted by: TriggerHappy

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:02 AM

hi all thanks for the responses.. they say a picture is worth a thousand words so here it goes...


Just to clarify the speakers would be just above and to either side of the fire place, so there would not be a corner but there also wouldn't be a wall to the right of the right speaker. not sure what sonic implications that would have but no worse than my current set-up...
Posted by: TriggerHappy

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:10 AM

well the picture didn't work...any ideas? I Used photobucket and copied the link...
Posted by: Murph

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:11 AM

Edit: I see you got your link working, so I am removing my copy of your pic.
Posted by: TriggerHappy

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:12 AM



Aha!
Posted by: Murph

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:20 AM

That is a tight space on the right.
I think the best you can do is somehow convince your wife that a wall mounted speaker on the right doesn't look to bad in order to get the sound roughly anchored to your TV instead of tempting your brain to look to the left all the time. Leave the left tight to the TV as well to center the sound.

Your couch is pretty close to the TV so I don't think you need 'louder' speakers for that position anyways. If you like the sound from your current ones, then play with the mounting location idea before buying new ones. If you are still not happy with the sound then upgrading is always fun.

If you are like me, and often play music via BRs and DVDs and like to listen in places other than just the couch, then you may find other models that pump it throughout the larger space better but again, I'd say one step at a time. Just get a wall bracket that will work with the much larger M22s if you think you may still go there but personally, and I hate to say it, I think a wall mounted M22 in that corner may indeed look very much out of place.

If you stick with the smaller speakers, moving it to the right on it's current stand looks like it 'just' works. Better than both off to the left, anyways.
Posted by: TriggerHappy

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Murph
That is a tight space on the right.
I think the best you can do is somehow convince your wife that a wall mounted speaker on the right doesn't look to bad in order to get the sound roughly anchored to your TV instead of tempting your brain to look to the left all the time. Leave the left tight to the TV as well to center the sound.


Murph, just to clarify, I am not going to use the speakers for the TV...just for music. Am mulling over a couple of options:

1) M22 on/in wall mounted above and either side of the fireplace...will need to look into getting and positioning a sub and what impacts there with not having a cross-over embedded in the amp.

the idea is to get a set of speakers that would sound full or at least full-er when entertaining, or when in the kitchen prepping meals... and that does have nice audiofile capabilities when I and my wife have time to sit and relax on the coach with a glass of wine.

2) would involve in-cabinet M80s but I would then need to extend the wall and shorten the entertainment nook, move the TV to above the FP, etc, etc... I am trying to avoid option 2!


Posted by: J. B.

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:38 AM

i tried to delete this post, but did not get permission. :-)
Posted by: Murph

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 10:43 AM

Ahh, I should have really re-read your first post carefully.

The M22s should fill (for lack of a better term) your space nicely.

Another option to improve the musical sound in the rest of the room might be to add a second set of speakers further back in the room. For movies, they could serve as surround sound speakers. (Oops you said no movies) When playing music, you could switch your receiver to a 5 or 7 Channel Stereo Mode, if it has one. When in this mode, it sends the front left and right stereo channels to all of the left & right speakers equally. So it's like having another stereo set up in the back of the room. Great for parties when everyone is wandering around all over the place.

Again though, I think this might be overkill for most people unless you have a HUGE room. I'm obviously just too bored on this conference call and your suffering the result.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 11:20 AM

I'm a little confused. (How typical)

1) Are you going to be using the main L/R speakers for Stereo music only and never for the TV?

2) Are you only going to be using the built in TV speakers for movies?

3) This wall does not look optimal for a home theater setup. Is there another wall that would be better suited? Either in this room, or another.
Posted by: TriggerHappy

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 11:33 AM

Murph, thanks for the suggestion.. the Sonos has a speaker amp combo called the zone 5 which I can and am using to have music in other rooms (very handy little device!). It annoys me that at half-volume that little box pumps out more music than my ProAcs (great speakers - wrong room!

The more I am think though the on wall mount would look odd above and either side of the fire place plus I think would lift the sound stage too much for music listening.

Third option is now the M22 book shelf on the existing stands... maybe if I run the speaker cable in-wall to the back of the speaker that would help with the WAF. And add a sub-woofer in the corner by the Piano.

Anyone have any idea how the Bookshelf M22 sound with minimal space between them and the wall? I know with the ProAcs it amplifies the base but diminishes the sound stage substantially.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 12:14 PM

i think i remember Brent or Alan saying that the M60's only need an inch or 2 of space between the ports and a wall. I would assume the M22's would need even less space?
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 12:18 PM

I would remove the mirror and mount the tv above the fireplace, you want the speakers to the left/right of the picture.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 12:51 PM

Originally Posted By: dakkon
i think i remember Brent or Alan saying that the M60's only need an inch or 2 of space between the ports and a wall. I would assume the M22's would need even less space?


I think he's referring to the wall to the immediate side of the speaker, not the distance behind the speaker. In answer to this, I don't know how it would affect it.
Posted by: TriggerHappy

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: CatBrat
I'm a little confused. (How typical)

1) Are you going to be using the main L/R speakers for Stereo music only and never for the TV?

2) Are you only going to be using the built in TV speakers for movies?

3) This wall does not look optimal for a home theater setup. Is there another wall that would be better suited? Either in this room, or another.


Cat Brat; just specifically for music... I agree not optimal for HT. I have a dedicated HT in the basement that I use for games/ movies and such... at the moment all run with Polk audio...(opportunity for future changes!)

If money was no object I would eliminate the nook and make a customised shelving for AV equipment, pics/books etc.; change the mantel to allow for lowering the TV, add the addition of a centre channel. This would enable me to build cabinets for and procure in-cabinet M80s for either side (maybe a foot to either side of the fire place.)

Not sure if I have the relationship capital to undertake that project (not to mention real capital!) so an interim solution is required. Hence the idea of the M22s with sub...At first I thought of the on wall/ in wall but now I am not sure. they would look odd stuck to either side of the mirror. Now I am wondering if the M22 bookshelves with the current stands would be acceptable (run the speaker wire in wall to maximize WAF.
Posted by: TriggerHappy

Re: Advice on speakers and set-up w/ high WAF - 11/15/11 01:02 PM

Originally Posted By: CatBrat
Originally Posted By: dakkon
i think i remember Brent or Alan saying that the M60's only need an inch or 2 of space between the ports and a wall. I would assume the M22's would need even less space?


I think he's referring to the wall to the immediate side of the speaker, not the distance behind the speaker. In answer to this, I don't know how it would affect it.


Actually Dakkon was right I was referring to the amount of distance from the wall to the back of the speaker. Essentially I am looking at the same setup in the earlier posted pic but replacing the ProAcs with the M22 bookshelves now... again not to be used for the TV and I will not be placing any speaker to the right of the TV...

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for all the suggestions. Some of the confusion is due to me changing options on the fly and me not originally providing a picture!
I really appreciate the input and patience!