I've been trying to decide on a TV for my new basement HT. I've already spent some time looking around and thinking about this but I'm hoping you folks will have some wisdom that helps me make up my mind!

The only requirement I have for this is no projectors. I'm only going to be sitting 9-10' back from the display, the cost is high and frankly I currently don't feel like dealing with all the learning and adjusting I'd have to make for one.

So as I said I'll be sitting roughly 9' back from the TV, the room is wide (23'), 6-8 seats across. No windows so brightness is not an issue.

I do have a list of wants. Here are the main ones in order of importance.

1)<= $1500
2)70 inches
3)Wall mountable
(this would put the TV as far back as possible and the center channel would be much happier without a TV stand to deal with)

The (initial) contenders:

Sharp LCD (LED) 70 inches
I'm not sure which model at this point

Pros:
Large
Good reviews (picture quality)
Fairly thin (unimportant really), wall mountable
Energy efficient

Cons:
Cost $2200+

Panasonic Plasma 65 inches
I'm not sure which model at this point

Pros:
Cost - base model $1500ish
Good reviews (picture quality)
Fairly thin (unimportant really), wall mountable

Cons:
Not 70 inches
Cost - better models over $1500
Energy inefficient (not too concerned about it)
Base model has a very ugly bezel

Mits 73inch DLP
Freaking bazillion models of it

Pros:
Cheap! - as low as $900ish
Large!
Fairly energy efficient

Cons:
Needs TV stand
Not the greatest side viewable


I'm wondering is it's a little early to be in the 70 inch TV market as there aren't many choices. I have a 51 inch Samsung plasma in our living room that I'm pretty happy with but the fact that (other than those giant 135inch) plasmas top off at 65 is frustrating. Yes, that 5 inches is somewhat of a big deal to me. This is why I'm considering the DLP. My previous TV was a Samsung DLP and I was pretty happy with it as well. Since the current 73 inch Mits are so damn cheap I feel like I should get one and then replace it 3 - 4 years down the road.

I walked into our Costco the other day, they had the 80 inch Sharp sitting right next to the 70 inch. Made the 70 look small. But seeing that $4500 price tag made me stop caring about that.

I found the 70 inch sharps, including the $8000 Elite model to have very poor off angle viewing. That's one reason I'm opting for a Panasonic Plasma. Except I'm shelling out more for the 65 VT50 version, probably. There's one con to the VT50 that bother's me, and that's the stupid shiny silver lining around the edges of the bezel.

I thought the full array LED models were suppose to have better off angle viewing than the edge lit LEDs.

Hi Inane,

CatBrat is right. Sharp LCD sets have been among the worst for off-angle viewing. The contrast and color shifts last time I looked at some models were gross even at modest off-axis angles. That was two years ago. I've always felt the Samsung LCD sets are quite good off-angle.

Plus, in the past, Sharp gear hasn't been very reliable.

Now, Mitsubishi gear (TVs, cars, computer monitors, etc): very unreliable. Even their old CRT sets always broke down, as did their computer monitors. Despite the superiority of DLP in many respects, and the incredibly cheap Mitsu DLP prices, I'd resist.

My 50-inch Samsung DLP is still chugging along on the original bulb with no problems after six years.

I was reminded of the limitations of LCD displays for fast-action sports watching some basketball and hockey on my spouse's Samsung LCD display in Toronto over the past week--all kinds of video artifacts, smearing and the like, with fast horizontal and vertical action. I see none of those on my DLP set, and plasma displays are also free of motion artifacts.

I'm sure JohnK will be along with some of the Consumer Reports latest recommendations on flat-screen displays. Their judgments, at least on video displays, are reasonably accurate in my experience.

Regards,
Alan

I don't think your price point is realistic.

I'd get the 65" Panasonic Plasma (although I understand that some videophiles think that the upper-end models are noticeably and meaningfully "better" than the lower-end models).

OR

Get a 1080p projector and have as big a screen as you want.

Edit: also, don't completely discount the fan noise from either a projector or from a DLP-RPTV. My main display is a 61" JVC LCOS RPTV; it still has an excellent picture, but the fan noise is certainly audible.

Hey Inane,

some good advice already from the other forumers. Here's some other things to consider:

-refresh rate: if you plan to do any gaming, want to keep up with sports or make it less stressful on the eyes, find an LCD with at least 120hz refresh rate. Don't be fooled by the motion smoothing technology that most companies use to trick you into believing it's actually a higher refresh rate television. You'll be able to identify this by the name it's given (i.e. Sony calls it Motionflow, Samsung calls it Clear Motion Rate, LG calls it Trumotion). These technologies actually interpolate and add frames to a scene that aren't actually there. It makes what you watch look unreal and soap opera like. It's also very poor for playing video games because it creates a lagging effect due to the additional video processing. The biggest scam used by manufacturers of LCD TV's right now. Bestbuy is a good site to determine the refresh rate, although they are occasionally wrong.

-power consumption: Plasmas use the most, and by a significant margin over LCD and LED TVs. LED TV's although more power efficient than regular LCDs aren't so much more so that it justifies the price premium. However, if being eco-friendly trumps the additional cost go for it. Organic LED's are said to be the best, with better colours and deeper blacks.

Here's a couple of links you may want to review:

http://tv.toptenreviews.com/flat-panel/lcd/
http://tv.toptenreviews.com/led-tv/
http://tv.toptenreviews.com/flat-panel/plasma/

http://www.testfreaks.com/televisions/

http://www.consumersearch.com/lcd-tv

I think it's a little unrealistic to buy a TV of that size for less than $1500 but you may get lucky!

Hope this helps!

fLuid

Well as I stated $1500 is the goal but it's not set in stone. I already know there is a Panasonic Plasma that can be had for that (65 inches) and the DLP is way cheaper (73 inches).

I pretty much know the pros/cons between all the technologies. I guess what my main issue/concern is about is finding a decent set that's (about) 70 inches. There aren't too many that I've found other than what I've listed above.

I have a LG LE558500 55" LED Full-Array with Local Dimming and I love it. It has a glossy screen though so it won't be good in a bright environment. I have mine in the basement and it's perfect. I don't know if it is still available, I got mine two years ago.

I did a lot of research before arriving at that choice. One area I didn't consider was the extent of calibration controls. As it is an IPS panel, it could benefit a lot from calibration. I did eventually get a colorimeter and the software and did a calibration and I was so happy to find that this TV had all the controls I needed to do proper greyscale and color adjustments. I t's not just brightness, contrast, color and tint. It's RGBLowEnd and RGBHighEnd and about 12 other color controls.

Anyway, having these controls was a big bonus and really helped me get as good a picture as possible. And something I never thought to consider.

Just to add to what fLuid said about interpolation, Trumotion in my case. My eyes are very sensitive to judder and slow refresh rates. My LG is 240 Hz and I still notice it in many but not all movies. I tried desperately to get a Trumotion setting that I could live with. Yes, I did get the Soap Opera effect but at low levels of interpolation I was willing to live with it. Unfortunately, the interpolation does also produce picture artifacts similar to compression artifacts. It happens on only certain types of scenes but unfortunately for me, it's not acceptable so I don't use it.

Ben, 70" and $1500 don't really go very well together, but the closest may be this set you might have looked at. The latest Consumer Reports tests in the March issue gave the Panasonic ST30s one of the very top ratings. I've noted, though, that some buyers have experienced a fluctuating brightness level, which may(or may not)have been corrected in production 8-9 months ago.

Ya that is the Panasonic I've looked at. $1500 was only a target, if I find something worthy of spending more on I'd consider doing it. It's this reason I have the DLP on my list. I wouldn't feel as bad spending $900ish on it with the plans of replacing it in 3-4 years.

All I've seen are a bunch of other 65 inch plasma's. I'm curious to know if I've missed anything else that is 70 inches or greater. All I've found are the Sharp's and DLPs in this size.

Ben, just go for this or at least this and do that "It's easier to ask forgiveness" thing.....

I remember when a 42" plasma use to cost that much.. For that size that's a Steal!!!!!

Marks post brought up something.. I thought that there was legislation that stated that displays had to have speakers in them? BH has several "displays" listed without speakers.. Has anyone bought a display without speakers recently?

They're probably from the professional/corporate lines geared towards electronic signage.

Yeah, but why not use them as a display in a HT setting? Would there be any reason not to use one of them?

Hello, I would go for Plasma! Plasma has great viewing angles and you get alot for the money! Please check out: http://plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv/compare-reviews.php

I spent about six months finding the best picture quality for the money I was willing to spend. Last year I chose the PN50C7000, and I love the picture, especially after using the calibration settings!

The largest screen they have reviewed is the 64" Samsung, which should be plenty big enough for most people.

Basically, I suggest going with the best picture for your money instead of the size. So, 64" for now seems to be your best bet!

I have a friend that still has a 42" plasma that he paid that much for (if I paid that much for anything, I'd still have it too). Now he wants a 100+" display (but not a projector), so I'll have to show him these have become available, and not just through an installer who will charge 15% of the price just to hook it up.

Dakkon, I think anything with a built-in tuner has to have speakers.

There's no reason not to use these types of devices for HT that I'm aware of. Ray3 was really bullish on the commercial plasmas a few years back.

He had almost forced each of us to buy one as he had with the MX-700 remotes....

For most of us here, we would only need a display.. No tuner or speakers... I thought that manufactures had pretty much stopped manufacturing "display only" devices...

I am glad that mark posted this, as this is the product that i would most like to purchase. not the 50k$ one though

VisualApex is the vendor Ray used, I believe.

I don't know that this route will save you any money, but the commercial displays may (or may not?) be "better" in some way than the consumer-grade TV's.

Thanks for the link Tom.


Saving money is not high on the priority list.. Getting the product that i want for a price i am willing to pay is a higher priority to me. I would rather spend a bit more on something that is exactly what i am looking for.

So last night I was at NFM for the Berkshire sale (got a great deal on carpet). I got to take a look at most of these TVs in person.

The 70 inch Sharps looked great from the front but I will concur with what's been said about the side angle viewing, it was noticeably lacking. Which is too bad because otherwise I probably would have gone this route. (I REALLY want 70 inches!!!)

They also carry all of the Mits DLP's... let me tell you the 92 inch is a freaking giant! Anyway I took a look at the 73 inch and found it had the same side angle viewing issues as the Sharp. I knew DLP wasn't going to be strong in this area but it might just be too much of a problem for my room since it's setup to be really wide (23'). This is also a bummer because it was my fall back option to save money today (~$900) and wait a few years for this part of the market to grow up.

Panasonic... I found a 50 inch VT50 to gaze upon and it was fantastic! Looks like the 65 inch model of it is going to be over 3k so that's just not an option for me. I guess i'm going to have to look into the 65 inch VT30 or ST30. In the stores open box sales section they had a 65 inch VT30 sitting right next to one of the 70 inch Sharps. The Sharp looked way better but I think that might have had something to do with their signal splitter or possibly something being setup wrong on the plasma. I really used that opportunity to compare 65 inches against 70 inches. It wasn't a giant difference but still significant.

I'm more frustrated with my options here than anything else. I think I need to take another trip over there without the family so I can focus on the sets a bit more.

I purchased a 65 inch Panasonic Plasma model GT50 late last year (Boxing Day sale in Canada). At the time I was considering the 70 inch Sharp or the 65 inch Panasonic VT30. The side angle viewing on the Sharp was noticeably lacking and the extra $ for the VT30 did not make sense. I had an older Sony LCD which ended up downstairs in the games room. The plasma is a huge upgrade.

I thought the VT30 series was cheaper than the GT50 series...?

I'm trying to find a good comparison between all of these Panasonic models.

/shakes fists in the air

Here . Note that the 2011 30s are on sale for less than the 2012 50s.

Awesome, thanks John

I am hoping Panasonic will follow Sharp and build some huge plasmas in the next few years, I love my S1.

My parents have a Sharp 60" and I quite like it as well, prefer my Plasma but the Sharp is very nice, haven't noticed any off angle issues but I am also off angle to the side and the TV is up high so this could be the difference. I see that Sharp 80" monster in stores and simply start drooling over it. I would only watch from a very slight off angle (with a TV this big) in my room so this could be my next TV.

Jason, you must have missed my earlier post:

Mark, i would guess that JAson did see that... But, i think he is wanting a product that is at a slightly lower price point.... I'm sure that if the were 100$ less Jason would have already ordered one

I'm not sure if the chrome strip on the vt50 is the same as the vt30 but I have grown to like the look on my 65vt30.

Regarding the original question, I'd go with the panny 65 st 50. If budget wasn't an issue I'd go for the 65vt50

I'm extremely happy with my 65 vt30, If you can get one in your budget go for it! Be careful with open box sales of plasmas though that may have excessive image retention from store display discs, etc.

I hear the st 50 is just about on par with the vt30, so in my opinion I would be choosing between 65 st50 and 65 vt30 as both are similar in price.

I'm definitely going for the 65 VT50. I'm going to have the money for it in about 3 weeks, so why not. That silver bezel edge is smaller then the one on the VT30. The ST50 doesn't have the day and night time THX modes. For me, that's a deal breaker. The VT50 has 2 professional modes that I plan on having a calibration done. Might pick a calibrator from AVSFORUM site, but I want someone that can calibrate the 3D mode. So far, 3D mode calibrators seem to be a scarce bird.

Edit: Why would I care about daytime THX mode when I have blackout curtains and a calibrated plasma? Because I may not want to always sit in a dark room and watch movies.

I'm seriously considering the P65GT30 since it's well over $500 less than the VT30 (~$1700 vs $2400) and only slightly more than the ST30 (~$1500). I don't think I can justify any of the XX50 models as they are all well over 2k.

What's the main difference between the 30 and the 50?

If I had to pick one topic, I'd say it's the newly designed panel. Of course, that then leads into all of the other differences, that the new panel provides.

Here's a quote from avsforum, from this link. Which sums up the performance of the ST30 vs the ST50.

Begin Quote:

I can't speak to the GT30 to GT50 but going from the ST30 to ST50 was a MAJOR upgrade in image quality.

I had the misfortune of cracking the screen on my 11 month old p60st30 and have had a p55st50 in my home for about a week now and it is very evident which TV performs better.

ST50 does better in all of areas below.
1. Noticeably better black levels. With any lighting in the room the black bars appear to blend into the bezel

2. Brighter screen but not at the expense of color saturation

3. Cleaner image. Not sure what it is about this set but it has a MUCH clearer image when watching compressed content such as DTV or Dish.

4. Much more accurate skin tones

5. No green or red shift like last years ST30

6. No audible buzzing from the set unless the content is all white and takes up most of the screen. Even then, you have to listen for it. The ST30 would buzz when switching resolutions or no content is on the screen. The very slight buzz you do hear if you hear it at all is a much more palatable frequency as well.

7. Built in Wi-Fi

8. Lighter and much more modern looking. Looks very similar to the PNxxD7000. Very nice form factor

9. The frame interpolation is handled much better this year. Turning motion smoothing to low does not give you nearly the soap opera affect as last years model.

10. No shifts in brightness at all when you defeat the ABL feature in Custom mode under pro settings.

11. HDMI ports are off the side rather than the back so you don't have to worry about clearance for your cables when mouting it on the wall

12. Blu tooth 3d glasses sync up quickly and stay in sync at further distances than last years model. The new 2012 3d glasses are much cheaper and much lighter and more comfortable.

13. Does not seem nearly as susceptible to IR. My ST30 had some issues with this. I have not seen even a hit of IR on this set after several hours of gaming on it. I would still recommend being careful as you would with any plasma display.

14. Massively improved anti glare filter. On my ST30 I could see reflections of the TV that were bouncing off pictures I had on the wall behind my central viewing position. Can't see this at all with this set. Really big improvement. It almost fools you into thinking you are watching TV on a matte screen it is that effective.


This set is so superior to my now broken ST30 I am almost happy the ST30 was broken. It is WAY better than the ST30 so based off this I would have to assume the ST or GT50 would be better than last years GT30.

I would go so far as to say there is absolutely nothing the ST50 does not do better than the ST30. This is how I would expect a quality Plasma to operate and look.

Hope my observations help. I have nothing but great things to say about this years models and what it does do better it does noticeably better. Huge leap in everything that counts from my observations.

:End Quote

Well, so much for being satisfied with a good deal on last year's model.

I think I still will be because the cost of the 2012 models is way to rich for me.

Yeah, maybe a GT, though?

you cant miss what you have never seen. Im still happy with my 3yr old panny. I dont go lookin at tv's,that just ends in disappointment and buyers regret.

True, but the discussion is for those looking to buy their next plasma. Knowledge is power.

Or, their first plasma , not all of us are fancy flat pannel tv owners yet....

ok maybe i missed something here but i was sure the OP was within a budget hence , considering buying a last years model at a steep discount. I did that when i bought my 50 inch panny and the same when i bought my 60 lg. If money is a concern then it is never a good idea to go look at the latest and greatest. .

I currently have a middle of the road Samsung plasma in our living room and other than the reflections it has during the daylight hours I've been really happy with it. I'm fairly sure even the 2011 Panny GT30 will be a better set so I'm not too concerned about having the bestest model (VT50) possible.

I'm still a bit bummed that I'm going to have to settle for 65 inches BUT there is no doubt these plasmas have better picture quality than the LCD's and DLP's that are larger. It's my personal opinion that there is not a ton of video content out there worthy of what these high end TVs are capable of displaying. Broadcast HD is usually pretty poor and I'm not talking about the compression cable providers put it thru. I'm talking about production quality. Only a handful of shows seem to look better than average. Sporting events might be above the average but I still see plenty of artifacts in them. Every studio show on ESPN looks gawd awful, I think it's their studio cameras just plain suck. They can go to a remote reporter in a split screen and that remote shot will look 10 times better than the person in the studio. So that leaves blurays. It's true some look fantastic but my experience is half the movies I rent look barely better than DVD quality.

And since when do threads stay on topic past 2 pages around here??

true dat

Here's a new review on the Panasonic 65 inch VT50.

Cool.

I'm still favoring the GT30... just can't bring myself to press the damn order button thou. My subconscious is waiting for a miracle to appear in the form of a super cheap, super awesome, giant TV.

Fear no more as it's been ordered!

Damn, 82 inch DLP for $100 less than I spent on the 65 inch Panasonic.

Folks, the 65GT30 is AMAZING! I am so impressed with this TV. All I've done so far is set it to the THX presets... from what I've read they are pretty accurate. I don't see the need to calibrate it out any. Granted my 51 inch Samsung plasma is middle of the road but this Panasonic blows it out of the water. I'm even (mostly) happy with the size. At the distance we sit back from the TV I think much larger would be a problem... kinda like sitting in the front row at the movie theater. Having to move your head around to watch it is not pleasant.

Congrats man! Very nice. I almost pulled the trigger on a panny GT50 65", but ended up going 73" dlp.

I did a lot of research on your GT 30 as well, you got an excellent deal and a high end plasma for sure, nice. Enjoy it!

In the future, do you think you will calibrate yourself with a cal disc? I was thinking of getting the Disney WOW disc, seems to get great reviews for self cal...

Honestly I would probably not bother calibrating it unless I found a way to do it really cheap and I managed to have the time perhaps. I read that the THX setting is pretty close to what I'd get from calibrating it and it looks pretty good to me.

*edit*

Well I see the Disney WOW disk is only 22 bucks on Amazon so maybe I'll try that out when I get some time.

Yep, me too. Gonna try it and report back here with results. TV should be here next week...

Well, it looks like the Panasonic VT50 is kicking the Pioneer Kuro's butt, as to picture quality. If you have a Kuro, you might want to think about selling it now, because the value will be going down big time soon.

link to reviews please ?

Just going by owner's comments and photo comparisons at avsforum. Scroll down to photos.

looking at the photos in your link tells me that the Panasonic was better adjusted than the Kuro, but the Pana. could still be better adjusted than what we see.
the only way to make a good judgment would be to have both tv's calibrated by an expert and judge the two side by side.
a camera is no good for that either.

Now you're ruining my false view of the world. It's not any fun when you have to look at the facts.

i'm very lazy, so i only move my eyes, not my head.
also, as a welcome byproduct, it is an economy, calory wise.

As an avid long-range radio listener (shortwave, etc), I think that plasma TVs should be banned from the face of the earth - unless they figure out a way to filter out their unprecedented amounts of RFI. In comparison, LCD TVs emit very little noise.

I don't know how plasma TVs were ever allowed to pass FCC/DOC RFI suppression standards. I hope that none ever show up in my neighbourhood or my radio hobby will be largely over...

TAM

Wow, Tom. I did NOT know that. Thank you very much.

Just another successful day of learnin' at the Axiom schoolhouse.

I remember when it was the other way around and YOU guys were effing with MY TV signal. OK, it was black and white kinescope, but I still remember.

Not me. I'm just a listener not a transmitter. IOW, I'm not a HAM. From what I understand, modern TXing gear does not cause the interference problems that the older stuff did years ago.

RFI is becoming a huge problem universally since our government regulators stopped doing their job of policing the electronic equipment that is being imported by the ton daily. On my daily walks around our small town here with my miniature Sony radio, RFI is absolutely brutal when passing certain businesses. Thirty years ago, the authorities would have hunted down the emitters & rectified the problem - not anymore.

Switching power supplies (wall-warts) are a major culprit because they are made so cheaply without proper filtering & also because they are everywhere in our lives & homes.

It just so happens that plasma TV technology is really bad for emitting really strong RFI some reason...

TAM

Wow, you learn something new everyday. I surely did not know that about the plasma TVs Tom, I promise I'll keep our Panny south of the Mason-Dixon line and hopefully out of radio interference range of any radios close by.

Peace my blues loving brother!

Rick:

I think that I'm safe from you, ha! Enjoy your plasma.

I don't want to hijack this thread with RFI stuff; however, a couple of years ago I had an interesting experience with RFI in my radio room. I installed a D-Link Wireless Router that was situated close to my radios because my computer & cable feed are there also. When I fired it up, I got big interference on the Shortwave band.

I complained to D-Link Canada & initially they were of no help; however, I guess that my complaint finally made it to their techies in Toronto & eventually to their engineering staff in Taiwan.

The next thing I know, I have 2 engineers flying overnight from Taiwan plus 1 from Toronto to check out my complaint in my house. I couldn't believe it!

With my radio on when I plugged in the router, they winced when the noise started. The chief engineer brought a bag of power supplies & we spent some time experimenting with them. All of his modified power supplies with installed filter caps worked just fine. He left me a couple & away they went back to Vancouver & all flew back home that night. I wonder what those 3 trips cost D-LINK, especially considering that the router cost me only $50? I kinda have a soft spot for D-LINK products ever since.

If all power supplies were built that way, and it wouldn't take much effort nor cost, the world would be a quieter place RFI-wise...

TAM

That's actually a pretty cool story.

Sorry about my plasma(s) generating RFI but their price/performance can't be matched by LCD!

I don't know. Looking at a wall of HD TVs at Best Buy or Future Shop, I don't see a whole lot of difference in display types nor brands, except perhaps how they are set up. Showing HD material, to me they are all 'similarly good'.

I'm still using a 50" Sony XBR rear projection LCD from 2003 - now on its second bulb. That technology did not give the best blacks but normal daylight type scenes are stunning to my eye & still very satisfying. At the exorbitant price that I paid, I'm going to run it till it blows up & then it will probably be an LED/LCD.

TAM

Wow, that's what I call service ... if AT&T were involved you would still be on the phone as I type Tom.

Neat story!

How far can you communicate on your radio? I hear those rigs sometimes can stretch way on out.

Rick:

Sorry to be off the TV topic again but:

I'm not a HAM so I do not transmit - I only receive. From my West Coast location, on Shortwave I regularly listen to Radio Australia, New Zealand, Asia, Africa & the South Pacific - all via my radio collection & small antenna farm in the back yard. The problem is now that English SW broadcasts are rapidly disappearing due to streaming on the internet; however, using the net is just not the same to me.

A sub genre of the radio listening hobby is searching for distant aeronautical Non Directional Beacons (NDBs) of which I'm sure you are familiar. As you know they are generally low powered & not designed for really long range reception; however, it is amazing what you can receive in the dark hours in the winter via atmospheric skip. This is a really geeky pastime which really impacts on my sleep patterns, ha!

I've logged over 600 NDBs in the past 3 years as far away as the Caribbean, Mexico, Brazil & Iwo Jima. Nauru in the South Pacific is my farthest catch at 5289 Statute Miles. Our local Comox NDB (6 miles from me) - QQ 400Khz - has been heard in Europe! Alas, NDBs are also disappearing as aviation GPS is now universal.

TAM

My overall satisfaction with FM radio SQ is FAR less than it used to be. Do you think that could be a function of the pervasive RFI problem you're talking about?

Exlabdriver, have you ever tried to get the european broadcast stations on Long wave ?
when i lived in Europe, i found listening to those was very interesting. when i was back in Canada, i tried lots of times to get them, but to no avail.

my surprise was that one day (living in Europe) there was much solar activity and i could receive a couple of AM band commercial stations from Quebec, Canada. it lasted for a few minutes.

Tom:

I wouldn't surprise me if RFI is a factor, but probably a minor one. FM frequencies aren't as negatively affected as the lower bands such as Shortwave & Medium Wave (AM). FM is badly affected by multipath issues in urban areas caused by reflections off of buildings, etc that can really degrade clean reception. I also believe that FM is excessively compressing their signal material & we all know how that sounds. That may be the biggest factor.

I don't use FM anymore as I prefer to listen to my own choice of music rather than someone else's playlists. I don't even have a Tuner hooked up to my Tube Amp - just a CD/SACD player.

I listen to a lot of AM Talk Radio - both from Vancouver & Idaho & Washington States - just to keep my blood pressure up, ha!

TAM

you better watch out, Talk Radio is a killer.

JB:

Yes, at certain times of the year & only in the wee hours, Longwave (LW) Broadcasts can be heard; however, out here on the West Coast, they are mostly from Russia. It is easier to hear Europe from eastern North America.

I have heard Germany on 153 Khz, Russia on 171 & 279 Khz, & Iceland on 189 Khz. These are not common nor easy to catch as those signals are for domestic consumption & not directed towards us in North America

LW Transmitters are monsters & put out up to 2500 KWs of power as contrasted to our North America MW (AM) transmitters of 50 KWs maximum. LW transmitters must have horrendous electric bills...

As for Talk Radio - my wife is convinced that I'm becoming more warped than normal...

TAM

Hey it's good to have a hobby(s). I've always been into electronics of some kind. As a kid I was fascinated with building radio kits thou I never got into shortwave.

I like to recycle threads, so here we go, back on a track.

Let's pretend that my current TV isn't going to die in time for me to get a Panasonic Plasma before they disappear.

Let's also further stipulate that OLED is going to remain "too expensive" for me during my shopping window. Likewise, I don't believe 4K will be either affordable or meaningful to me.

Finally, I'm not getting a projector until we move, which - given the state of the economy and the ages of my kids - isn't going to be my "next TV".

SO...

If you were shopping for a high-fidelity, good value 65-70" flat LED/LCD display, where would you start?

I haven't look too closely at the latest models, but I'd likely go with Samsung again. My 6 series LCD has been excellent, trouble free since new in '09. I'll wait for the prices to drop on the 4k's...

Thanks, Adrian!

Is it a 120Hz or 240Hz model? How do you feel about motion blur (especially during sports) and Soap Opera Effect? Those things are pretty important to me, so I'd need to be able to adjust settings accordingly.

My sense is that I'd want a 240Hz model because of sports, but I honestly don't know if that's a thing or not with newer sets. I recently saw a Vizio on which the SOE was really distracting, but I didn't mess with the TruMotion (or whatever) settings to see if I could tame it.

A major retailer in Ontario is heavily promoting Hisense TVs: "the biggest seller of TVs in China".
They're advertising a 58" 4K TV for just under $2300.

Lg and Samsung still make plasma's. I hate lcd , so I really want to score a 65zt60 before there gone.,<<< not likely. Hopefully someone will still make them though I fear 4K will eliminate them all even though we don't really need 4K.

[Progress is a great thing it just lasted too long.

I don't like this game...
Panny!!
Panny!!!
Panny!!!

Buy used.
There, done.

My Sammy is a 120hz, Tom. There is some blur on it, keep in mind it's a 2009...I don't know how the newer LED's with 240hz compare but they should be a lot better in that respect. Best thing to do is go to a retailer and make them put a game on, or a fast motion picture(of your choice) to test it.

Well, it looks like the Panasonic VT50 is throwing the Innovator Kuro's buttocks, as to image. If you have a Kuro, you might want to think about promoting it now, because the value will be going down major soon.

Yes! This! Hilarious!

That's my first choice; I'm just spending some time noodling on money I don't have. Part of the hobby.

You know, I kind of forgot that Samsung is still making 64" plasmas. That could be a solution. However, there's no way to know how long THAT will last, either, especially since Samsung is not announcing anything about plasma products at CES this week.

It looks like LG doesn't make any plasmas larger than 60".

I also have to wonder whether either LG or Samsung are manufacturing panels, or whether one or both of them is using plasma panels that originate in a Panasonic factory.

I still have my Sony XBR 52" 120 hz TV as the main. I still sometimes do a jaw drop at how good the picture is when watching sports. Premiere League Soccer or NFL. The only motion blur that I ever encounter is almost always traceable to the quality of the Time Warner signal.

So I gather from this thread that Plasma is still likes more than LCD.

What I don't get is the motion blur part. If you do the math, the screen is updated at 60frames/second, so a full screen repaint is 1/60 of a second. The specs on an IPS screen is 5ms grey to grey, and 14mz white to black. where as a TN screen is closer to the 1ms and 7ms.

And 1ms is 1/1000 of a second, so the screen should be able to transition from any one colour to another colour in far less time than the source material is changing on the screen. (14ms < 60ms)

so these 120hz or 240hz does not make any sense if your source material is only 60hz. Either the TV specs they are giving are in no relation to reality, or the blur that everyone is seeing is on the source material.

For the TV to get 120hz or 240hz and for it to make any sort of difference then the TV is itself making up it's own frames between what the source material is giving it.

Think of it like taking a 128kbs MP3 file and re-encoding it to 320kbs MP3 and telling eveyone that it will sound better. It CAN'T because the data just is not there in the first place.


And, Oh yea. I need to buy a new TV for my room downstairs.

Wait, I don't understand, but I want to.

Are you saying that the frame rate for the native signal we get from "providers" is ALWAYS less than the native frame rate of even a 120Hz TV?

The way I understand it is, yes, the TV supplies extra frames, which is 1 or more intermediate frames between every 2 frames received. This enhances the motion flow, that others describe as the Soap Opera Effect.

I've had a Sony XBR 50" LCD Rear Projection from 10 years ago that was replaced last year with a high end Sony 55 LCD, plus a lower end Sony 40" LCD in our bedroom.

I've never seen 'motion blur' on any of them. It just doesn't happen as far as I can see...

TAM

YES.

And if you are watching Actual TV, they send at 1080i, so you are only getting 30 full frames per second in an interlaced format. So first field is the even lines, the next field is the odd lines at 60Hz.

Most BluRays are recorded at 25Hz, But as the LCD TV is all digital, it can refresh at any rate it feels like. So there is no 4:3 sync BS with adding in extra frames to match a fixed refresh rate like old TV's. No, the TV just changed is rate to a slower 25Hz to match the BluRay.

With the faster TV's you are paying for either it to re-paint the same image on the screen 2, 4 or 8 times more than it needs to, or the TV has to make up what it thinks are the frames between what is has NOW and what it thinks it will get 16ms from now for TV or 40ms for your BluRay.

Now an IPS pannel were once much slower than a TN or PVA, but the speeds have caught up. so the newer IPS and its iterations can now transition between 5ms to 11ms depending on the colour change extremes.

Back when LCD first came out, the transition times were in the 40-60ms range, and YES there were issues with ghosting. The marketing teams use this to sell you a feature that you will never really use.

That's odd because I'm always seeing motion blur. Currently have a Panasonic 65 inch VT50 plasma. It's supposed to be one of the best for eliminating motion blur, but I see it all the time. Before that, I had a few LCD's. Didn't notice a lot of blur with them, probably because they were smaller.

Is it film based material? Normal I think at 24fps to have blur in wide angle pans etc.

HD sports is where motion blur is introduced by an LCD and not plasmas. Plasma FTW!

And there lies the crux. If the source material that you are watching has motion blur in it, then your TV will display that blur in full vivid colour. (assuming it's not a black and white movie)

It doesn't matter how much over sampling, high refresh rate or up-conversion to 4K video is done.. if the source is blurry, then you will see it. And with the new HiDef 1080p that we have, our eyes can now see that blur clearly, where as before in 480i (240 lines of actual resolution) you were lucky if you could even see any detail from the TV. Think non HD netflix on a dial up modem internet connection. The TV's were small enough that our brains compensated.

The TV's of today are like our beloved Axiom speakers. They show you everything, warts and all. But give them a well recorded source, and you will be swept away to nirvana.

If I was to do a blind A/B comparison between a good quality LCD vs a good quality Plasma, I bet you could not tell the difference.

I have a PVR and have recorded fast action sports and went searching for blured sections on playback. This is 1080i direct recording in .TS format, exactly what you will see in HiDef on your TV. The actual frames that were blurry it was totally the source material. Everything else I could not get a single ghost or blur or artefact from the LCD tv not being able to keep up.

Perhaps you are right.

But in any BB or Futureshop you can view the same demo reel on 20+ TVs and see the differences. The blind test stuff doesnt really translate into stuff you look at to apreciate. Jk.

You gotta be a little silly to not see a panny plasma as superior in a store setting beside an LCD. Kinda easy, no? I mean, CNET didnt become the goliath they are by guessing at this stuff.

When I go into a store & look at a wall of TVs, I definitely cannot pick out a plasma among a sea of LCDs - they all look pretty well 'similarly good' to me.

What is most striking IMO is the different 'torch modes' that different manufacturers use to display their wares in a retail environment, settings that should never be used in a HT...

TAM

I prefer plasma and have 2 Panasonic Vieras. To me they seem so much more life like. Plus I can't stand the motion flow effect of the interpolated frames on an LCD boasting 120 or 240 hz. Reminds me of "Littlest Hobo"or a British documentary.

There should be a law against torch mode. When I get to a store into the nitty gritty, first things first I get the remote and politely ask the salesperson to take coffee.

The newer LCD sets are really good, dont get me wrong. So good infact, an employee at BB would drag his fingers hard across the demos to distort the color to differentiate an LCD from plasma when shelf tags were missing. CRINGE. My cue to leave the store. Yikes.

I have nothing to add. I just wanted to change the spelling of the subject line.

Geoff Morrison discusses motion blur in "What is Refresh Rate?" .

Well, THAT didn't stick! Let me try that again!

I was at the hospital for 4 hrs waitin on my kid a couple weekends ago. They had an LCD tv and I watched a movie called Wild Hogs with Travolta and Tim Allen. I have watched a few time already but on the LCD someone who did not doing had set it up and it was like watching a sitcom . They had some kind of motion interpolation goin on and it was horrible. I could not watch an LCD on a daily basis. I have 3 plasma's and my only regret is I can not afford a Panny 65zt60. It was a sad day when panny said they would not make plasma's any more. Have to hold out for an oled.

I run my higher end Sony LCD without any of those so-called 'picture enhancement' doodads running. For me, the PQ is simply stunning on any HD or Blu Ray source that I choose to watch. Off axis (where I don't sit), not so much.

As I've stated some time ago, I have a fine collection of vintage & modern radios - not net radios. It is well known that RFI pollution from Plasma TVs is brutal. I shudder to think that one might make its way into my neighourhood...

TAM

I have not seen so much CR@P since my trip to the elephant exhibit at the local zoo.



So in the article he admits that the response time is no longer and issue. So what causes it? The article does not say. But he implies that the issue is caused only on LCD and not on Plasma screens.

Plasma is a light emitting technology, so it can pulse the image pixles and then fade back to black.

But so can a good LCD, as the transition from black to white to black is still less than the 60hz.

I still get a kick out of the make believe photo's they show of how they generate images in-between frames that have all this detail. It is utter BS! The differences between the two frames is almost identical, and if it is a very fast movement, then your brain simply blurs as your eyes cannot process fast enough.

Think of it as watching a car drive quickly past you. It is blured. But if you think of it, that car was updating at infinity hz. If you slice time into smaller and smaller segments, the car has moved along in a fluid and constant motion not in finite jerky blocks. So why is it blurry? Obviously the movement of the car exceeded our eye/brain ability to process individual sharp imaged in sucession, and that is with real life. How do you expect anything different from a TV.

The problem gets compounded even more, because we fail to realize that the stuff we see on TV is recorded by a video camera of some sort, and it doesn't grab everything on a frame instantly in total sharpness. No, it scans from the top corner to the bottom opposite corner and then starts over again. Any object that is moving faster than the recorders ability to capture a full frame of image will be by default smeared/burred on that frame as its position at the start of the frame is totally different from its position at the end of the frame. An no amount of adding frames, or flashing background will solve a blurred source image. Cannot be done.

Thanks for the link John.

Matt, a car does not blur as it drives by. You must focus intentionally on it and your eyes will adjust focus with it as it moves. The depth of that focal plane shrinks as objects get closer to your eye however. Is this what you are talking about?

The plasma vs LCD quality debate was won long ago. Any online article, reviewer, top pick list etc is/was plasma. First Kuro now the zt60.

LCD is a far more profitable technology. Manufacturers are getting out of plasma now so great deals are out there for last in box models.

I just bought a st60 and had to dig to find one. Then I move to Charlottetown to find the last in store vt60 is selling for 100$ more than what I paid a month before for an st60. Holy was I choked.

If you want to use that line of thought, then we can say that the PC vs Mac was won long ago (back in the late eighties). The PC was by far the better computer hands down and so there is no need to even bother looking at current generations because innovation and new technology can't change anything.

Plasma has improved. So has LED. I will say that out of the box, plasma does have a better picture. The backs are blacker, the white is whiter. But use it for 2-3 years and then compare it with what it was like. The blacks are no longer as black. The white has turned into a more creamy colour. So if you want to replace the TV every 18-24 months, then you will by far have a much better picture. But is has better off axis viewing. Better in a brighter lit room. Faster colour change. Great TV. I have no problems with saying it.

I do have a problem with all the false bashing of LCD that has zero base in facts. if you want to make a broad statement, then it better have something to back it up other that hearsay and just because someone said it on the internet it must be true.

You mad? Whos bashing?

This is a very OLD myth about plasma tvs.
The concept of burnout/washout and followed by 'plasma recharging'.
Our neighbor has had his plasma for over 8 years now, plays movies every weekend (aside from other tv watching). It still has better blacks than the 1 year old LCD we bought which was top ranked on a number of review sites.

Hey matt, I have a 7yr old 720p LG plasma, a 5yr old Panny 800u and a Lg that's a couple yrs old that gets the least amount of use and I can say that given the tech from 7yrs ago the Lg 720 stll looks damn good (10,000 hrs plus) and none of them exhibit the problems you describe. As for the Panny if anything it has improved. Plasma is still valid for a while since LG and Samsung are on the job and oled is around the corner. I say to each his own but for my eyes which were used for a lot of years watching CRT the Plasma looks more life like and real . LCD looks exaggerated. This wont be the first time the wrong technology won. Beta was better than VHS yet it lost out. I think HD DVD was better than Bluray , and the pc will always outsell and outshine Mac.

My parents bought a plasma first for the living room and later an lcd for their bedroom and for them they don't give a shit one way or the other. All the people that buy tvs that don't hang out on the internet in forums like us then to buy what pops when they walk in , and plasma doesn't pop. But that pop gets old fast but by the time they notice its too late.

Well, I can pull reviews from the internet such as

http://www.cnet.com/news/2010-panasonic-...an-competition/

I can't say if this has been fixed with later models as they have not been out for long enough to know.

I have several friends that have plasma screens and I can see a difference. Yes, it is still blacker than my LCD, but not as black as it once was. And then there is the even older models that burn in was a serious problem. He watches CTV news every morning, and just the ticker bar and some of the highlight bars they use, over the past 6 years of ownership there is a definite colour change burn in for those spots on his TV.

Now, if you don't happen to watch stations like that, then it won't be a problem for you. But with any pro's in a TV, you must also accept there will be some con's to smack you in the face.

It seems there are some sets more susceptible to burn in than others. I have 3 kids and every game console known to man and they leave the menu's and maps up for extended periods against my instructions LOL and I have no permanent burn in though I was concerned initially. My older sets have blacks that came very close to my newest set , though I read about problems with the TCP 800u Panasonic I have not experienced any that bother me personally. I have learned to just use things as they are designed, no special treatment here. If the cant survive they get the boot, its that simple. I did one repair to my first lg about 8 months ago, one day it went pop and quit. Took it apart found the smelly part, ordered a new one and its back up and running. I added a fan over the offending part to circumvent further trouble since the tv is passively cooled.

I think the only reason plasma will die is that it cant compete price wise with an lcd anymore. Plasma panel once were able to be larger than LCD but that has changed and getting those blacks is expensive ( ask pioneer) the margins are just to small to make plasma viable.

Richard

On thing I forgot to mention earlier about my 65 inch Panasonic VT50, is I've had both the iso and the THX modes calibrated for Dark room, Light Room, and 3D. These modes don't allow for any tweaking by the user.

There is more motion blur in the THX modes. In the Japanese anime, The Secret World of Ariety, near the beginning, where the boy gets out of the car, walks through the gate, then there's a long right to left pan. It's blurry in THX, but crystal clear in iso.

A couple questions (because this thread is where I am storing my noodling on this topic):

As of today, if you had an aging set you wanted to replace/upgrade, would you get a Samsung plasma, some good-quality LED, or wait around to see what happens with OLED?

Our room has a window at the opposite end from the TV, so I REALLY need some kind of matte filter rather than a full-gloss screen. Whaddyagot?

Sony sets seem to look good and get good reviews, but I'm scared of the reliability and the largely 120Hz refresh rate (at my price point). Thoughts?

Go 'Hawks.

Tom:

I have 2 Sony LCD TVs - 1 low end & 1 higher end. The lower end 42 incher has been running flawlessly for 3 years now & I'm into my second year on my 55 incher as well - no problems.

The PQ on my 55 incher in my HT is certainly a cut above the other one with better blacks & to me is simply stunning. LCD off axis is not as good as plasma but to me is just as good in every other way as other types. I never ever have witnessed lag or trails on my two sets...

TAM

Thanks, Tom.

Sony is blowing out the curved 65" 990 for $1799 right now. I'm not really jazzed about the curved part, but I am tempted.

http://store.sony.com/sony-sup-sup-s990-...All-Sony-HD-TVs

I have the 65 inch Panasonic VT-50 plasma (from about 2 years ago), and am in love with it, but unfortunately, plasma's won't be made in the 4k version, as I've heard, so plasma's will probably be phased out.

If I were buying today, I'd definitely get one of the 4k TV's and that curved 65 inch Samsung would probably work for me. The curved part is mostly hype and seems to have to effect, so curved or not curved you probably won't notice any difference. It's not THAT curved.

Samsung 6 series LCD still trouble free after 5 years...I'll look at a 4k in 2-3 years once the $ drops...will definitely be looking at another Sammy before any other brands.

Thanks, guys. Yes, I missed the window of opportunity on plasma. Panasonic is done with them, and I think Samsung will be at the end of 2014, too. LG doesn't market anything above 60".

Given my room configuration and viewing habits, I'm not convinced that 4k will EVER make a meaningful difference for me. Maybe for a projector some day. But I just don't see myself regularly sitting closer than 8 feet from a 65" screen.

But what if it were a movie about dwarf children and their Chihuahua puppies? What then, Tom, what then?

Don't belittle his decision, Bob!

To me, the 4K isn't about something that's better, it's just about getting the latest good quality thinga-ma-jig in TV's.

You think I'd be REGULARLY watching it? It would have to be the Godfather II of the dwarf/chihuahua genre.

Did anyone else look at that chart and think "oh crap, I need a new projector" ?

Personally, I'm having a hard time thinking that I'd just be starting to see the difference between a 720 and a 1080 on a 100 inch screen at 15 foot.

It's hard to say -- I'm currently playing BluRay disks through a 720p projector on a 100 inch screen at about 12 feet and I have to walk closer to the screen before I can see any indication of pixels. Not exactly the same thing but if I had a 1080p projector to do A/B testing with I would just retire the 720p and use the 1080p anyways

I'd love to jump in a pick up a new (native) 4K PJ.
According to the chart we're sitting in a good spot for 1080P, 105" @ 12.5'.
When my PJ is sent a native 1080P signal it looks amazing.
Especially when watching cartoons, ex. Planes,Cars,Rio,TMNT. Some amazingly detailed moments.
Think I might drop it down to 95" and try it out.

Get back on topic!



j/k. I always think about a projector, but just can't make it work in my current house.

The misspelling in the thread title has been bugging me for too long.

True, my brain kept expanding it to "Large TV Advisory". But it does things like that.

This should be of interest to this thread:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/h...ad-oled-4k.html

TAM