A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's

Posted by: Captain4105

A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/04/14 12:48 AM

I've had my M80's since the v3's came out. They are powered by a Denon 55w per channel receiver. At times I worry about possible distortion and resultant speaker damage at certain peak levels so I want to upgrade to a more powerful receiver or amp to protect my speakers.

I have read about the benefits of having sufficient power and reserve power for peaks in these threads. I do not listen at reference levels, and my listening is strictly classical, but I do listen with sufficient volume that allows me to hear the full spectrum of the instruments in an orchestra.

If I upgraded, say to a 125w per channel receiver (e.g. Denon's X-4000 or X-3000 or the like) would I hear more detailed and quality sound from the M80's at a level a notch or two less than reference than from a 55w receiver? If so could I get a similar result with less power than 125w? (I have a sub with its own power supply). Or would the obverse be necessary? My goal is quality and detailed sound from the M80's.

From what I can determine from my reading I am thinking anywhere from 90w to 125w per channel should be sufficient. Thanks for your comments. Happy New Year.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/04/14 06:26 AM

Lee, there shouldn't be a good reason to worry about "possible distortion" if it isn't actually occurring. Your present Denon should be able to cleanly handle brief peaks on the order of 103dB with your M80s. The question as to whether they're being called upon for more than this(disregarding the low bass frequencies handled by the sub)should be determined by measurements with an SPL meter done with the sub disconnected, but leaving the crossover in effect so as to continue to relieve the M80s of the lowest bass burden.

The increased maximum power levels which you're considering wouldn't have any effect on "detail", but would simply allow playing brief peaks at a level about 3dB higher(e.g., 106dB rather than 103dB)with low amplifier distortion. Speaker distortion itself would of course be slightly higher.

Upgraded features may be good reasons to consider a receiver such as the X4000 with Audyssey XT32, but the increased maximum power capacity alone isn't likely to justify the purchase.
Posted by: casey01

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/04/14 01:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Captain4105
I've had my M80's since the v3's came out. They are powered by a Denon 55w per channel receiver. At times I worry about possible distortion and resultant speaker damage at certain peak levels so I want to upgrade to a more powerful receiver or amp to protect my speakers.

I have read about the benefits of having sufficient power and reserve power for peaks in these threads. I do not listen at reference levels, and my listening is strictly classical, but I do listen with sufficient volume that allows me to hear the full spectrum of the instruments in an orchestra.

If I upgraded, say to a 125w per channel receiver (e.g. Denon's X-4000 or X-3000 or the like) would I hear more detailed and quality sound from the M80's at a level a notch or two less than reference than from a 55w receiver? If so could I get a similar result with less power than 125w? (I have a sub with its own power supply). Or would the obverse be necessary? My goal is quality and detailed sound from the M80's.

From what I can determine from my reading I am thinking anywhere from 90w to 125w per channel should be sufficient. Thanks for your comments. Happy New Year.





I would suggest that if you are happy with the AVR you presently own and it has "pre-outs", it would probably be more beneficial and less costly to purchase a separate multi-channel power amp, i.e from Outlaw or Emotiva which offer really good equipment at reasonably prices PLUS the significant advantages of actually having the power you need with all channels driven and the ability to handle any type of speakers. Of course, if you want to really get in to it and you are capable of spending the extra money, then, of course, the Axiom amps are the next level.

It has been discussed many times but generally AVRs state power levels using one or two channels driven only and when all the channels are functioning, power levels significantly drop. Separate power amps negate that problem.
Posted by: Captain4105

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/04/14 04:30 PM

I am appreciative for your comments. My receiver has no crossover adjustments or handling ability...it is quite old. The M80's therefore must handle this on their own. There are no preout's either and it is a stereo receiver. I am quite certain an upgrade will be a reality in my near future. The main question has been answered and that is my power concern. Thank you both.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/04/14 06:45 PM

Quote:
Of course, if you want to really get in to it and you are capable of spending the extra money, then, of course, the Axiom amps are the next level.


I find this statement rather bold.

Can you please explain to me why and how the Axiom ADA 1500 - 5 channel, with 300 watts per channel and a $3100 price tag is the next level compared to the Emotiva XPR5 - 5 channel, with 400 watts per channel and a $2300 price tag?

Add to that the incredibly positive reviews for both products...why is it that the axiom amplifier is "of course, the next level"?

I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but you stated it more matter of factly, then mere opinion, so I'm just curious why you feel this way?
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 06:39 AM

on a side note: the fact the axiom amps are made in Canada and are a killer product, make it worth the few extra bucks smile I want one!
Posted by: casey01

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Mad_Chesser
on a side note: the fact the axiom amps are made in Canada and are a killer product, make it worth the few extra bucks smile I want one!


Well, it seems you just partly answered your own question. The Emotiva products are manufactured in China while the Axiom amps are designed and built from the ground up in Canada or if you prefer, North America,hence the significant cost differential. The highly regarded Bryston(which has a big linkage to Axiom) multi-channel amps or for that manner any of their products, which are also designed and built in Canada will cost you $4000-5000 and more and given their reputation and quality, I am sure their buyers understand that.

I see on many forums how people constantly complain about Chinese built products and why we can't get stuff built here? Well, here we have it, BUT, once again, with higher labour and other costs, expect to pay for it.
Posted by: Socketman

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 02:15 PM

The one thing I find attractive about the Axiom Amps is the size. I have an Emo XPA-3 and its huge, no way I could add more channels, I don't have room for that. With the Axiom I can always send it in and upgrade as well. As for the manufacturing of the axiom, true it is designed and assembled in Canada, I am sure the parts are made elsewhere , but still good enough for me. Maybe at tax time grin
Posted by: casey01

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Socketman
The one thing I find attractive about the Axiom Amps is the size. I have an Emo XPA-3 and its huge, no way I could add more channels, I don't have room for that. With the Axiom I can always send it in and upgrade as well. As for the manufacturing of the axiom, true it is designed and assembled in Canada, I am sure the parts are made elsewhere , but still good enough for me. Maybe at tax time grin


As a follow-up, as far as the small parts especially, capacitors, resistors and even some of the circuit boards, I would definitely concur it is pretty much a given that these have been manufactured overseas for many years now and placed in equipment regardless of price. The Emotiva XPR5, I am sure is a great amp and sounds great too, however, at just under 100 lbs. and for optimum operation requiring multiple dedicated circuits, it just isn't very practical for most applications.

Emotiva, unfortunately, doesn't supply a forklift truck to get in to position on your equipment rack.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 05:54 PM

Quote:
and for optimum operation requiring multiple dedicated circuits


Originally I was planning on buying one, but this is one reason I'm starting to look to an Axiom amplifier.

The XPR 5 needs it's own 20A breaker and 20A outlet.

I kind of like the fact how big it is! Just based on it's beastly size alone, it makes my penis feel an inch bigger! haha wink

But in all seriousness, like mentioned before, the fact the axiom amplifiers are built in house makes me want to spend the extra and support them.

Being made in china doesn't make a product poor. hell, apple products are made in china. It's just that I like supporting Canada's workers, not China's, if I can help it.

sigh, I've had to retire my Rotel RMB-1095. Somethings been going on with it for years and it's been band aided by a local electronic repair guy to many times to count...so I put it in storage frown

I'm massively craving my power back now. It is very noticeable at the high levels I like to listen with.

It's going to take me forever to save for a proper power amp crazy
Posted by: Socketman

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 05:57 PM

The axiom weighs 58 lbs my Emo xpa 3 weighs 57 lbs an XPR 2 is 100lbs the 7 channel Emo is a measly 29lbs. Not sure what the weight difference is depending on how many channels with the axiom. I looked at outlaw but that's in the 3500 bux plus shipping.
Posted by: JBG

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 07:01 PM

First thing the Emo's and Axiom's amps are two different type amp.. you can't really compare them it's like apples and oranges

Emo amp is type A/B class

Axiom amp is type D class

you can compare Axiom to D-Sonic

Emo's can compare to Outlaw


D-class amps are generally more expensive to make are cool & more efficient with power

A/B class is cheaper to make, generates heat & less efficient with power

Posted by: Socketman

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 07:06 PM

All I was comparing was the weight to the forklift reference but you make a good point for sure.

The XPR2 at 100lbs is a class H. The whole weight versus power thing is a myth. Also AB may not be as efficient but it believed to be better sounding, if you believe amps sound different.
Posted by: JBG

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Socketman
All I was comparing was the weight to the forklift reference but you make a good point for sure.

The XPR2 at 100lbs is a class H. The whole weight versus power thing is a myth. Also AB may not be as efficient but it believed to be better sounding, if you believe amps sound different.


the D class amps look really sweet, I will for sure get one soon..
Posted by: casey01

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 07:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Socketman
The axiom weighs 58 lbs my Emo xpa 3 weighs 57 lbs an XPR 2 is 100lbs the 7 channel Emo is a measly 29lbs. Not sure what the weight difference is depending on how many channels with the axiom. I looked at outlaw but that's in the 3500 bux plus shipping.


I have TWO Outlaw 7125s, great amp especially if you can line up a "B-Stock" item however, they are hard to get and go quickly. FYI, about the high end 7 channel Outlaw, except for their 200 watt monoblock amp which is manufactured in Taiwan, all of Outlaw amps are made for them by ATI technologies out of California, once again, like Axiom, another reason for the price differential with Emo.
Posted by: Strider53

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 07:23 PM

Outlaw multi channel amps all manufactured in NA, don't know about all of the components country of origin though.
The Model 7700 at 200 watts 8 ohm load or 300 watts 4 ohm load with all 7 channels driven, weighs in at a back breaking 94 lbs (207 kgs?)is priced well below 3500$, around 2200$ I believe.
Sure class A/B are different from class D but they both deliver the same thing, power for our Hobby! With fairly efficient speakers Class A/B amps are a solid candidate for a system.
just my 2 cents /Jeff
Posted by: Socketman

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 07:43 PM

My lowcal determines my purchase decisions. Emo is in TN which mean expensive shipping plus duties and taxes etc. I took a look at bryston but I can barely afford to look at their website. If I sell my Emo I will get myself a ADA-1250 5 channel and leave the rest to my Denon. I have a inquiry in with axiom about upgrading later down the road .I buy more Canadian all the time, even when shopping in town I try to search out American/Canadian products first.

Watch this and then buy from china.

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/4FrGxO2Fn_M
Posted by: JBG

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 08:08 PM

anyone heard of WYRED 4 SOUND ?
Posted by: Strider53

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 08:21 PM

My bad, 94 pounds is hardly 207 kilograms, maybe 42 kilos?
Poor typing skills
/Jeff
Posted by: Socketman

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: JBG
anyone heard of WYRED 4 SOUND ?


Thanks for sharing this , looks like another interesting source for affordable amps. Looks like their big dollar amps are Ice Power which is B&O modules from what I have read elsewhere.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 09:08 PM

I wonder how underrated the axiom amps are?
Between the HP upgrades and the new room I think I'll be using my 1000-4 at its limits.
I can't wait.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 09:17 PM

Originally Posted By: JBG
anyone heard of WYRED 4 SOUND ?

I'll pass.... just on the stupid spelling of the company name.
Posted by: Crimson Wrath

Re: A Few Receiver Questions to Power M80v3's - 01/05/14 09:19 PM

My M60s sing a hell of a lot better now with a dedicated amp. I found a discontinued Parasound model unopened in original box for a decent price on Ebay. If you're not opposed to buying used you can get some really good dedicated power. If you like it loud and have a decent sized room you can definitely benefit from a separate amplifier from you Denon.