As you can see, this is my first post. I have been doing the new speaker lurking over at the AVS forums for some time now and I think that I'm ready to take the plunge and do some auditioning. Based upon my budget, I was all ready to pick up a pair of the M60s, when I came across the many posts discussing the M22s versus the M60s. So, like many I have seen, I am in a bit of a quandry. Though I can afford the M60s, I am tempted to go the M22 route and apply the savings to upgrade the center and surrounds. My particular room will be about 10'X 17' once completed (speakers will be on shorter wall). The room will be primarily a HT room, but I also want to get that amazing music quality that I have heard over in that higher end room of Hifi Buys (yes, that's the only good frame of reference I have....no flames please). I auditioned a pair of Klipsh REF 35s yesterday and liked the "full" sound that filled the room, but I found myself wanting a bit more clarity. Hope that gives you enough reference to make suggestions. In going through the abundance of posts about this issue, I found that there were many who had made the jump, but I never saw the follow-up impressions of the 60s over the 22s. I'm sure that the sound is "better", so I will say that I am looking for opinions based on small room constraints. Was it worth the double jump in price? Would you recommend it given my constraints?
Thanks in advance for your input.
hi turbo, my axiom m22 based system is 2 weeks old and it is truly satisfying. I was in a similar boat, I was torn between a klipsch rb35 based system and axiom grand master with a vp150. I gave the klipsch's a good listening, in the end I decided M22s were clear and true to the recording. My opinion is that the rb35 sounds a little more fuller than M22, but the M22 would beat rb35 in midrange and clarity. Plus the movie experience on a axiom based system was much better than the rb35 based system.
If I had a bigger room, I wld have gone with the M60, but u wld not miss much by going with the M22 and the center/sorround upgrade u mentioned. The M60 bass is much deeper than the M22, but a good sub with M22 would nullify that deficit.
I have spent a lot of time calibrating my system and now the sub corretly compliments the M22 for LFEs.
Also, pls do search the forum , am sure u would find lots of useful information. While defining a search do make sure that u r setting the date range to the right value.
I own the M22, VP150, QS8 combo and love it. I do, however, while chatting here on this message board, wish I had M60s instead. When I first bought my system, I was almost entirely an HT listener. I listened to music only in the background while cleaning or doing mindless work.
However, since owning Axiom speakers, I have become accustomed to really listening to music and I would say listen to music more than HT now. I own over 20 DVD-Audios and many accoustic and jazz CDs. I used to only listen to Rock music.
I never desire to upgrade to M60's while listening to HT, the M22's sound incredible and I do not think I am missing anything with HT sound. However, with music, I definitely feel like I am missing some mid bass that my subwoofer just does not produce as well as a pair of M60's would. I may be wrong, but I just get that feeling.
I am probably giving you more questions instead of an answer, but this is my experience so far.
I know spiffnme has had both, and he definitely preferred the M60, but you should probably ask him about it.
Hi Turbodog (cool name, btw) - you don't mention a sub. I am getting along with the M60's without a sub, and am "happy" if not "satisfied". I love the speakers, especially for music, but plan to get a sub later to fill out the HT experience. So, we need to better understand your budget, intent and expectations. You really need a sub with the M22's. My experience is that I've NEVER been sorry for having bought the "better" one.
Dog,
I have the M60s and I'm thrilled with them. Have never heard the M22s, but I will share my impressions of the in-depth (my wife accuses me of defining anal/obsessive when in research mode) research I did. Not scientific by any means.
When I was in the throes of M22 or M60 like you are, virtually everything I researched pointed to the M60s as preferred fronts. Generally the discussions centered on the M60s having a fuller, broader soundstage. The mid-range speaker doesn't hurt either. Sentiments of those fortunate enough to have heard both lean heavily in the direction of the M60s.
In general, the decision points appear to fall to 1) is my listening room big enough to handle the M60s (they do need a little room) and 2) do I want to spend the extra money for the M60s.
Clearly, question 1 must be answered affirmatively or question 2 doesn't matter. Once you get to question 2, interesting dynamics begin to emerge.
First, the devil & angel on each shoulder begin the extra $$$ debate. It is especially useful to realize the difference really isn't $400 since you need stands for the M22s as well. Throw in the discount for ordering at least 5 pieces and/or the factory outlet price and the rationalization process to approve the extra expanse is relatively quick and painless. It takes those of us with burly wives just a tad longer to make the full $$$ trip since groveling is not a quick act.
Next, the obvious increase in audio output and enjoyment. Deadly benefits that fixes the last doubts of the extra $$$.
Third, those of us wise enough to have experienced buyer's remorse, upgradeitis, that itch that can't quite be reached to scratch realize that getting what you wanted to begin with always makes you happier and more content.
Finally, the testosterone kicks in big time. They ARE bigger, and therefore, MUST be better.
So let's cut to the chase. Call Axiom and see if your listening room can support the M60s. If so, ponder it overnight.
Next day, let's get that Man Card punched. Pick up the phone - PICK IT UP and order the M60s.
Whew, excuse me - I'm trembling. I need to go and lie down.
While shopping for new speakers I too listened to the Klipsh. I liked them, but there was something about them I didn't like. I also really like Infinity as well. My set-up before my current M22/VP100/QS4 was Infinity. I've always liked Infinity. They have always had a very smooth sound to them. But everything I listened to lacked some detail. So that led me to look elswhere. I did tons of reading on AVS and HTF as well as Audio Review and Ecoustics. Against my better judgement I was now considering two speaker companies that I have neither heard of or heard their products. Axiom and Ascend. Finally decided on Axiom and I couldn't be happier. I wish I had the extra money to get the M60s, but honesty I love the sound of the M22 paired with my new HSU VTF-2. I close my eyes and would swear I am listening to tower speakers. The area these went in is 12x20 but the listening area is 12x8 and the M22 fill the whole area with crisp, clear sound. Like I have said in another post I am now enjoying hearing my speakers instead of just listening to them. I might eventually replace the M22s with M60s, but I am in no hurry. I'll be enjoying this set-up for a while.
First of all, thanks for everyone's responses. I was worried that it might take a long time to get responses.
As far as subs go, I presently have a JBL PB10. I know that it's not a spectacular sub, but it has served me well for a few years. I will probably upgrade eventually, but wanted to focus on the mains first.
Everyone is hitting the nail right on the head. Having heard a glimps of that extremely clear and crisp sound in those high end rooms, I'm concerned that I'm going to be plagued by that buyer's remorse. I came home that day depressed as I listened to my 10 year old Yamaha loudspeakers. My blissful ignorance had been burst.
The game gets even more interesting considering the fact that I am expecting my first child, so finances are obviously a concern. The good thing is that my better half has heard those higher end speakers and understands my drive to have the two mains be able to produce that full and clear sound.....thank God....and she likes sci-fi and loaths chick-flicks. I know.....I lucked out on that one.
I think that I'm going to have some patience and see whether or not some of those who have converted like spiffnme jump in and give some input. I fully trust those from each side of the camp, but I think that the missing link are those that have heard both directly. At the same time, I am going to take Ray3's advice and call Axiom and make sure that I'm not going to run into a problem with the size of my room.
I will tell you that I am excited to get whichever pair I decide to go with. Just like Snippy referenced, many on these forums post that they hear their music in a new light once they started using their Axioms. I'm actually giddy in anticipation of that. Like Ray, I have researched the crap out of this and built up the anticipation like a kid before Christmas....soon enough.
Excellent choice Turbodog1. We all want to be as unbiased as we can, but always take what we say about our speakers with a grain of salt (after all who wants to admit they screwed up?). Hehe. I do love my m22s and my crappy little partsexpress dayton 10" subwoofer.
I spent my weekend playing xbox/ps2 listening to music (ozzy osborne, nellie mackay, jack johnson, ben harper) and watching a couple of movies (friday and from hell). Each and every moment had me saying to myself "Holy cow did I get a great deal and make a good choice!" I was actually suprised by how much bass was used in the soundtrack and dialog for From Hell. It really showed me how important proper placement of my sub is!
Please let us know what you go with and your impressions.
jr
Not trying to be a killjoy.....but from experience i figured out that axiom spkrs grow on you,atleast in my experience....my expectations were dented a bit during my audition, but the knowledge and a little bit of wisdom made me select the axioms, its been 2 weeks and my joy listening to them only grows day by day....
James,
Good call on the Jack Johnson and Ben Harper. Saw them in PHX. They are awesome.
I had M22/VP100/QS8/Hsu STF-2, upgraded to M60/VP150/QS8/STF-2, then finally a VTF-3R. The M22 + sub is a very good combination. That said I think the M60/VP150 is a worthwhile upgrade, if you have the space and money. The M60 has more presence in the upper bass and lower midrange.
Don't get stuck over analyzing it. Either combination sounds great. If I only had M22s and a sub I'd be very happy. Even with those you are probably more limited by room acoustics and source material quality than by speakers. Yet M60s are sufficiently better to be worth the money and space, if you've got it.
Oh yeah. I've seen Ben every year on hour for about 4 years now (I think). I've seen him live about 8 times now. He's pretty much the only music act I've seen more than twice and his shows never ever disappoint. One of those shows where from beginning to end you can tell the band is loving life and playing live and are excited as school boys/girls that you are there to play with them.
Jack was a lucky find. He opened for Ben Harper in Berkely last year. I'd heard one song of his on the radio so I grabbed his 1st then 2nd CDs. The 2nd one is so well recorded and layered I keep hearing new stuff when I listen to it (or maybe that's just the new great speakers?).
jr
ps sorry for hijacking
BTW, just wait until that first child arrives. While it will be infinitely more meaningful than the arrival of your new speakers (even if they are Axioms), it will also affect when, how long, and how loud you listen to music and movies.
I have both (new kids and new Axioms) and I'm happy. I *would* like it if I could give the Axioms a real workout after the kids are in bed...
Jack Johnson sounds so awesome on my Axioms!
It is truly an amazing experience. I am going to put that on right now. I love Taylor, song 4.
Lots of bass along with great accoustic guitar and a little hand played drums. simple, but great.
snippy
Taylor was one of the songs I listened to when I did an A/B between the CSW M80s and the axiom M22s. Great song for exactly the reasons you listed.
jr
Damn, and I have to listen to Jack through my Bose 301's until the summer time and I can afford some Axioms...
Since we're on the topic, I've noticed that Jack Johnson CDs are a great way to audition the bass capabilites of a speaker/subwoofer. The bass can sound VERY BOOMY. Try playing the CD on a boombox or in your car and you'll see what I mean.
Status Report: I talked with one of the Axiom speaker guys this afternoon about my quandry.
To begin with, he recommended the M60s if I can swing them. He said that my room dimensions shouldn't stifle the sound or anything like that. No surprise, his position was that you cannot go wrong with the bigger loudspeaker, because of the fuller sound and wider range, etc.
At this point, I am getting concerned that I am just getting the company sell by this guy. So, I decided to address the other speaker options.
Surprisingly, he recommended that I stick w/ the QS4s instead of the 8s. He said that he never used to recommend the 4s in any situation, but has since changed that position since they upgraded the tweeters to the same ones as the 8s. Since then, he says that the 4s can handle any tasks, as long as you aren't one of those that is really going to blast the volume.
Finally, as far as centers go, he recommends that I go the extra mile and get the 150 instead of the 100, mostly due to the fact that clear dialog is so central and critical to any movie experience.
So, as far as mains and center go, he said what I thought he would....what I was already thinking. However, as stated above, he surprised me by steering me to the more cost-effective surround solution.
At this point, I am going to hover a bit longer to see if I can get some of that input from the upgraders. I continue to be torn about the mains.....Perhaps I should get the 22s, upgrade them soon to the 60s, and then use them in my living room. How's that for logic?
The Axiom guy wasn't trying to just sell you the bigger speakers regardless of performance. Good as the M22s are, the M60s really are better -- I had both. But IMO the difference is more meaningful for music than HT. If your main focus is HT, M22/VP150/QS4 + a good sub is fine, and it's no slouch on music either.
That said, after getting Axiom speakers some of us end up listening to music more than we envisioned, it just sounds so good. Although M22s are good, M60s are better for that, based on my experience with both.
In reply to:
That said, after getting Axiom speakers some of us end up listening to music more than we envisioned, it just sounds so good.
This is so true. I am listening to more CDs at home than in the car for the first time in years. And I am using the M22s and a HSU VTF-2. I am sure in a year or two I will consider upgrading to the M60s, but these, along with the VP100 and QS4 are giving me a ton of enjoyment after only a week of ownership.
I have to agree with this as well. When I bought my Axioms, my listening ratio of movies to music was about 85/15. Now it is more like 35/65. I am listening to music frequently for the first time in years. I think that the best compliment I can pay my M60's is that I can listen to them indefinitely without getting tired of them, and my favorite way to listen to music is with just them...no sub, no center, no surrounds (with the exception of hi-res DVD-A and SACD sources).
Mark
I'll 2nd his 2nd. I decided to listen to the aformentioned CD because of this thread and am in heaven in my recliner with great stereo music and my laptop. I just need a hot pizza and some hefe weizen.... I'd like to add that Holes in Heaven is another great track.
jr
My favorite track has got to be Rodeo Clowns
This is becoming a Jack Johnson lovefest.
Not sure how I missed this thread.
With your room size, and the fact that you liked the "fullness" of the Klipsh, get the M60's. You won't be disapointed.
The M22ti's are great, but your room size would be pushing them a bit hard if you wanted to get into the 85-95db range.
I'm in the process of looking to buy a condo/townhouse. We've just placed a bid on one that is beautiful. BUT...the living room is quite small. I don't think my M60's would do that room much justice. If we get this place, I'll probably throw my M60's into the bedroom, and try using the M2i's in the small livingroom. If that's not satisfying, then I'll probably sell my Snell Type K/II's and get another pair of M22ti's for the livingroom.
I only tell you that story, so you realize that both the M22ti and the M60ti are terrific speakers, and your roomsize/budget should be the determining factors - not quality.
Good Luck!
In reply to:
I only tell you that story, so you realize that both the M22ti and the M60ti are terrific speakers, and your roomsize/budget should be the determining factors - not quality.
Ah Spiff.
Sweet music to my ears.
TurboDog, you can probably bank on the advice Joe gave you. I asked him over the phone a year ago if I should get the M80s or the M60s. I told him cost was no factor, but he basically recommended the M60s. If I remember right, Joe has M60s in his stunning HT, right?
Spiff, the house next door is for sale. 3600+ feet, 6 bedrooms, 4 baths, 4 car garage. Probably less than what you'll pay for that condo. With the money you save you can buy an SVS!
Where do you live?
btw...our offer was accepted last night on the townhouse!
Craig - congrats on the upcoming new digs. Moving can be an exciting thing. As you get older, it's just another thing to wear you out.
(Switch on unsolicited advice). I hope you have looked at 15 or even 20 year mortgages. The mortgage rates are as low as you'll see them anytime soon and you would save a bucket full of interest relative to a 30 Year mortgage. Unless of course, you are paying cash.
(Advice to the OFF position)
awesome, spiff! When's the housewarming party?
I'm not saying any more until we start moving furniture in. Don't want to jinx anything!
I enjoy a lot of different types of music but I must confess I've never heard of Jack Johnson or Ben Harper. Can someone describe their stuff?
Beachbum rhythm/guitar I'd say?
I know Jack Johnson refers to himself as a beach bum at least.
Try the samples:
Jack Johnson
Ben Harper
Jack Johnson has a great music-writing philosphy: He writes music that will sound good being played solo on his acoustic guitar while sitting on his porch in Hawaii.
Wow, that "Customers who bought this also bought:" is pretty accurate. I have all of those cd's except coldplay.
I think Jack is considered Folk Rock.
The description of Jack Johnson is pretty acurate (from Peter). Ben is all over the place in styles, but very good (in my opinion). Rock, blues, gospal, R&B, heavy metal, reggae. 90% guitar based and it will make you want to cry, shout out, and shake your butt... Especially if it's live.
jr
Live, you could also say Ben Harper makes you want to ... what's the phrase? ... burn one down.
Hehe. Even if you don't feel like it you will probably participate when he plays that song....
jr
Sorry I'm late Spiff. Congratulations!
even the non-participants can't hold their breath that long.
Congrats Spiff....it was only last year you were saying that you wished to have property...now you do.
Happy decorating and designing.
I will be also moving into my new loft in 2 weeks...after waiting for 4 dreadful years.
cheers;
Saturn
We don't have it yet. *fingers crossed* Though if it's not this place, we'll find another.
Spiff told me in a PM that if the West LA condo thing falls through he's moving to Chino to raise quarter horses and Angus cattle.
Damn all you city folk!!!
OK....I finally had a plan.
Based upon everyone's input, all of the posts I have read late into the night, and my basic desire to have that more robust and clear sound that I have heard in more expensive loudspeakers, I am going to go w/ the M60s. That was actually the easier decision.
Once I made that choice, I now had a tab running up just under $1500 (60's, QS8's, and VP150). I am still juggling whether or not the 8's are necessary w/ my room size and the new tweeter thing. Regardless, the tab is still a bit higher than I want to spend in one instance.
So, the logical thing is to just buy the 60's now and then add components as I go (using existing components in the interim). Seemed like a good plan until I found out about this additional 5% off for buying 5 speakers or more....they had to throw in that additional incentive to do my usual impulse buying.
Dog,
One more thing. I apologize if this was mentioned earlier (I don't have time right now to go back through the thread), but along with the 5% discount for ordering 5 (or more) pieces, you can get another 5% discount if you waive the 30 day return privelige. You need to ask about it when you order, but that gets you to a total of 10%.
OK....now that's just cruel and unusual punishment. I have my wife sitting here telling me to wait until the basement is done to order them and now this. Are either of these offers time-dependant or are both discounts ongoing/standard?
Thanks for everyone's input.
Both are standard. No worries!
However much the impulsive little kid in me wanted you to say that they were time-sensitive, that helps a lot. Now, I can get the set I want while maintaining the WAF. So, I guess I need to hurry up and finsish the basement.
Again, thank for everyone's input. Not only did you guys help guide me towards the speakers that best fit my requirements...you also saved me a bunch of money.