I think that some of you have figured out, by now, that I tend to be a bit curious and really don't take things at "face value."

Well, on one of these threads, a while ago, I asked exactly what a blemished carton was when describing audio gear. Here is what I got from Spearit Audio:

"Hi,

Thanks for your interest. A blemished carton is an "A" stock product in a
box that was damaged during shipping. It has been evaluated by the
manufacturer and deemed perfect. It carries the full warranty and is a good
oppurtunity to save some cash.

Thanks again,
Joel Paredes
for:

Jack Tozzi
Internet Sales and Marketing

Hi Bernard,
The NAD "blemished carton" units are brand new, unopened,
"A-stock" units
that have been shipped more than once. The boxes are a little beat but the
units are uneffected. NAD "blemished cartons" come with the full two-year
manufacturers warranty.
I hope this is helpful.

Dick Moulding
Internet Sales and Marketing"

Don't really understand why I received two emails almost simultaneoulsy saying almost the same thing. Maybe it was a slow day? But, now we know what a blemished carton definition is, at least with Spearit.

I have also emailed Denon with a couple questions about their warranties, but I don't have an answer just yet.

That's good to know, Ratpack. I often go over to the Spearitsound site to look at the NAD stuff. Good prices.

I don't need the stuff, but I sure do want it. . .

Looking doesn't cost a thing.

I am finding out that its best to ask all sorts of questions BEFORE you buy!

Sometimes the advertisement is NOT exactly what you thought it was.

I bought my NAD 370 as a damaged box. Saved a few bucks and it was only really a small ding in the box. Ive seen boxes come from UPS torn up way worse. I bought mine from YAWA so who knows what everyone else is selling. What you get might really be torn up

I sent the following email to Denon last weekend and have not received an answer, yet:

"Gentlemen:

I have read, with interest, your warning about purchasing from an "unauthorized" dealer. I am, however, somewhat puzzled and surprised at the number of etailers that sell your Denon brand and are not on your authorized list. So, let me ask two questions about an etailer that is on your list (Dakmart):

1. You just introduced (within the past month) the Denon 4806 in the United States. How can Dakmart have "b stock" or refurbished units so soon? Were these pre-production units?

2. It appears that Dakmart offers a 1 year warranty and on your website you say there is only a 90 day warranty. Does Dakmart do the servicing after the 90 day period rather than Denon?

Thank you for your help.

Regards,"

Where have all of you sent your out of warranty audio gear to be repaired?

Just wondering if there may be another way to "skin" the warranty cat???????

Bernard, I sure hope you get an answer to your questions. I'll be VERY eager to hear what they have to say.

I still haven't received a reply from Denon. I'll give them until next Tuesday before I send another inquiry.

But, I did do a websearch for a new Denon 4806 on pricegrabber. There were two etailers listed: Crutchfield and DigitalCraze. Of course Crutchfield had full MSRP while DigitalCraze had a substantial discount.

I went to the DigitalCraze website and this is what they say about their merchandise:

"Our goal at DIGITALCRAZE.com is to accomodate every customer 100% of the time. We have been in the electronics industry since 1970 and our staff is very knowledgeable. We are well experienced and well staffed in our sales
and customer service departments. Most of our merchandise is purchased through direct channels and Everything we sell is Brand New. We do not sell grey market or refurbished merchandise. We at DIGITALCRAZE.com hope
you have a smooth shopping experience and come back to us in the future for all of your electronic needs.

Thank You,
DIGITALCRAZE.COM"

I find that most interesting!!!!

Bernard, as usual it might be worthwhile to read the ratings from(at least supposedly)DigitalCraze customers .

DigitalCraze is not on Denon's list of resellers.

I did take my investigation several steps further, I emailed them. This is the email traffic:

"I am very interested in a new Denon 4806 which you offer for sale. I am not familiar with your company and am wondering if you are an authorized Denon dealer? If you are not an authorized Denon dealer, how long is the
warranty and who performs the service, if required?

Thanks for your prompt reply.

Regards,"

This is what I received:

"We are not an Authorized Dealer for Denon . Fact is no one online that discounts any Denon products and sells them for less than retails price is considered an Authorized dealer. For further details please call us.

Best regards,

Ed Brodsky
http://www.digitalcraze.com/
1-888-992-7293"

John: Yes, I should take a look at that!!!!!!!!!!

You should email him Denon list of authorized resellers. He didn't respond about the warranty.

Ahhhhh, very astute Bug!!!

I called him and talked to him. He said that they get their product from Denon. I asked about the warranty. He said that there was a 2 year warranty on the Denon 4806. If I had trouble with one, say in a year and a half, I would call them, they would prepare the UPS documentation, and I would then send it to Denon.

That procedure seems a little strange!!!!! But, taken at face value (do I believe what I was told?), the warranty appears the same.

Anyone else reading this thread have any experience with a situation like this??????

John: I looked at those reviews and they, generally, looked positive.

However, the one review about a used amplifier versus a new one was a little strange since DigitalCraze's website indicates that they only sell new gear??? Maybe I need to reread the "fine" print?

I always trust web sites that say they started in the 1970s. I'm sure they were on ARPAnet! I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. Further, in 1970, I don't think there was much digital in the world of audio, so if they have been in business since then, they've either changed what they sell or changed their business name.

Well, I wouldn't be quite so harsh. What they said is:

"We have been in the electronics industry since 1970....."

I have purchased electronics by phone/ mail order for over 40 years. I suppose that they could have been a mail order company back then.

Yeah, that's true, but it just doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. Then again, you're making the purchase, not me!

To tell you the truth, I don't get a warm/ fuzzy feeling about this warranty situation with Denon, HK and a bunch of others!!!

It smells a little "fishy."

Perhaps a way to "price fix?"

Comments?

I have to admit I have had good results with electronic warranties. My Integra has a three year warranty. The warranty work was done by ABL in Michigan. They even sent call tags for my equipment.

Last time I had a Denon issue. It took 3 days for an email response. The issue was resolved in 5 days through emails.

What was the issue?

What was the resolution?

Sorry.

I had a high pitched noise on all speakers, very high, very faint, like the ringing in my ears.

The fix was a reboot of the receiver to factory settings and resetting inputs.

I don't know what caused the problem. For the fix I had to unplug everything, reboot, then start from scratch.

Sometimes a power surge will cause microprocessors to do "funny" things.

I had a few "strange" things go on with my satellite TV receiver until I put a UPS in line with my surge surpressor.

Nothing since.

Go Figure!

My experience with Dakmart was terrible. I wouldn't trust what they say about much of anything including having the unit in stock. After I made the mistake of ordering a reciever from them I started looking for customer ratings. Dakmart had a .27 out of 10.

You may get what you order from them without a problem but if you don't, buyer beware, they will resolve things to their advantage not yours. They didn't respond to me until I cancelled payment through the credit card and then they simply charged my credit card again and lied to the credit card company about it. I documented to the credit card issuer that they were lying. to get the charge removed a second time.

That doesn't sound too good!!!!!!!!

Since I haven't heard from Denon yet, I sent the same email to Dakmart. In a couple of hours, they replied. This is what they said:

"A B-stock unit is a unit that was returned to Denon by a retailer. Denon then Certifies that the unit will operate exactly as a brand new unit. The unit comes with all accessories, batteries, remote, manuals, cables and instructions as a brand new unit. We are authorized dealers, so Denon will honor their warranty anywhere in the US. You will have a full 1 year warranty, unlike the 90 day warranty that you would expect from b stock. Your unit will always be serviced by DENON. Denon will pay for any covered repair for the first 90 days, and DAKMART will pay for any covered repair for the following 275 days.

Be VERY careful out there, especially for this amount of money. MOST internet or ebay sellers are not authorized, and in this case you would have NO WARRANTY.

We are authorized dealers, but do not take anyone's word for it, not even ours. VERIFY AT DENON’S WEBSITE FIRST. Our company name is DAKMART. Here is a link to verify that we are authorized dealers….

http://www.usa.denon.com/dealers/dealers.asp?l=1

Choose STATE = FL
Choose AREA CODE = 954

THERE WE ARE DAKMART
This will prove that we are dealers

Please feel free to call with any additional questions

1-877-DAKMART ext 226

If you have any additional questions please contact us toll free at 1-877-DAKMART, or by e-mail sales@dakmart.com.

Morgan C. Edelman,
Customer Relations Supervisor
DAKmart, Inc.
1-877-DAKMART ext. 221
morgane@dakmart.com
www.dakmart.com"

The saga continues!!!

In reply to:

---

THERE WE ARE DAKMART
This will prove that we are dealers

---

The first part of their letter seemed like a well-written, but likely "form letter". The last part sounded like a defensive kid trying to sell his Pioneer 6x9s on eBay.

Wow, what an unprofessional letter. I agree with Mark.

The exact wording appears on their website.

It still all boils down to less warranty for paying less for the 4806 at a discounted price. When it gets there it's either DOA or it's not. The odds are in your favor that it's operating correctly because it's been recertified.

bug: remember that on the only occasion that I purchased a refurb (Toshiba laptop), I had nothing but trouble with it.

If I believe DigitalCraze, I get a new unit with the full warranty at a discount.

I don't like this situation. I think that it is designed to confuse and screw the customer.

Not a full warranty. A one year minus 90 days. Full warranty is 2 years.

Again, it's the risk reward factor. Buying new from an internet company or a regular retailer still has a risk factor.

Besides, you know something always fails the day after the warranty expires.

Not sure where you are getting your length of warranty numbers? Dakmart claims one year, DigitalCraze claims 2 years.

Yes, risk is the operative word.

That is why I have asked where folks get their "out of warranty" gear repaired. Thus far no one has responded!!

I suspect that I could get a lot of repair work done for $1000! But, then again, there may be a module that was smoked that costs $1100.

Anyone out there have their audio gear repaired????? If so, where, what was wrong, how much did it cost, and how long did it take??????????

With audio equipment, I find it either fails in the first couple of months or the damn thing never dies and you're stuck with it forever.

Like my 10 y.o. JVC CD changer!

Digitcraze is not authorized, so your really voiding the Denon 2 year warranty as Denon state on their website.

Dakmart (authorized) says you have the Denon 90 day warranty on refurbs, after 90 days Dakmart does repairs up to one year. You give up 1 year of warranty.

This firm:
A B L CORP
314 EAST 14 MILE RD
MADISON HEIGHTS, MI 48071
888-933-4988
did the repair work on my Integra. They do warranty and non warranty work on all brands.

I agree with statement that it fails in 90 days or its good forever.

DVD players are a different matter. Moving parts like chucks go bad with wear. The longer the warranty the better.

Why do you say that the Denon warranty is "voided" with DigitalCraze? If I believe what the fella told me, I still get the 2 year warranty.

What we (I) need to find is someone who bought a Denon from one of these etailers (who actually said that there would be warranty service) and then needed warranty work!

Any of you out there? If so, please tell us about your experience!!

If Denon explicitly states that the warranty is not valid if purchased from a non-authorized retailer, as it does here:

WARNING TO VALUED CONSUMERS:

The warranty on DENON Electronics products is NOT VALID if the products have been purchased from an unauthorized dealer/on-line E-tailer or if the original factory serial number has been removed, defaced or replaced in any way. Recently DENON Electronics has become aware of numerous instances in which such serial number tampering has occurred. Unauthorized dealers/on-line E-tailers and/or their suppliers frequently alter the serial numbers in an effort to prevent manufacturers from tracing the supplier source. DENON Electronics sell products through authorized retail and on-line channels to insure that consumers obtain quality pre-sale and after-sale support and service. PROTECT YOUR WARRANTY. Buy from an authorized DENON Electronics dealer/E-tailer. Check the unit and its packaging to determine whether the factory serial number may have been altered. To check to see if your dealer is an authorized dealer click here or if in doubt, call DENON Electronics at (973) 396-0810. For warranty terms and conditions on New or Refurbished equipment, please select the appropriate product type.

then you don't get a Denon warranty from DigitalCraze, no matter what they tell you. Denon's the one with the warranty and the rules that go with, so I'd trust what they say more than what the sales dude tells you at DigitalCraze. If you do get it from DigitalCraze, I'd highly recommend getting it from them in writing that they promise that Denon will honor the 2 year warranty. Otherwise, it's just talk.

Your point is well taken!!!!!!!! One should have it in writing. I'm waiting for other etailers to offer the 4806. I'll call and ask them what the deal with the warranty is. I'm in no hurry and probably will not get the Denon, anyhow. This exercise has been a real eye-opener!!

Unless I have some issues with HD TV lip sync, I'm going to wait and see what happens with the separates. I've eliminated the Outlaw 990 because it doesn't have HDMI switching. Otherwise, it looks pretty decent.

What have the rest of you found?????

Generally that is true, but................!!!!

I purchased from Dakmart several months ago. “See past posts”

My wife think I over analyze everything as I do being an engineer, but to save over $1.5K on hardware, why not. It’s my time. BTW it took me 6 months to buy the Epic 80 500 system and I love it.

Regarding Dakmart:
I spoke to several staff, then the owner about the negativity on some websites. Most can be correlated to EBay where if you read them, they are quite funny.

Also I think the staff is spell check challenged or they don’t care. But who cares if the deal is a good one. You’re not dating their English teacher.

My purchase was perfect. Product delivered as promised and it worked. I held out for a Black 3805 due to none in stock for over 2 weeks. I then negotiated for a silver unit for a considerable $$ dollars discount. It was delivered with a 3910 DVD together in the same box with one shipping charge. Conclusion: Cha-Ching. I saved big.

I too sent a message to Denon. (See posts) and received a message back from denon saying Dakmart was authorized. (See past posts).

You can beat this horse to death with everyone commenting but in the end, YOU will have to decide what meets your needs and what you consider a personal WIN.

Good hunting.

GEB

Dakmart is, in fact, listed on the Denon website as one of their authorized etailers.

In their email to me, they did not comment as to how they already had the 4806. I find it strange that they would already have refurbs with the 4806 out less than a month.

Man, that is hardly time enought for someone to take delivery, listen to it, and then send it back to Denon, and Denon fix it, and send it to Dakmart.

Just smells a bit fishy!!!!

They must have been born dead right in the factory.

That's about the ony way that Dakmart could have them already!!!!

Strange to say the least.

Anyone else looking into refurbs and the warranty that they have?

I would have thought that there would have been many more comments on this thread!!!

Bernard,
maybe i missed it earlier in this thread (i've been skimming through trying to catch up from the past couple of weeks) but do Dakmart actually have 4806s in store? If so, I'd agree that does sound a little strange. However if they are just listed, they may have done that in the "expectation" that they will soon be receiving shipment of some.

Again my apologies if this was already mentioned.

Well, they "claim" that they have them in stock, but until you really order, who knows????

I still find that situation very, very strange.

For anyone that is interested, there are some interesting threads on the AVS Forum about warranties. Some of the comments, if true, and I should emphasize "IF TRUE" verify my notion that the manufacturers are playing games with the consumers.

If anyone has some "deep money pockets," I suspect that you could take these manufacturers to the "cleaners." In a way, I am somewhat surprised that someone hasn't already done it.

Has anyone on this board actually had bad warranty experience with new (not refurb) gear bought in the United States from an unauthorized dealer? If so, I would like to hear your story either on this board or send me a PM.

What's going on here could be almost as bad as the BS with speaker wire.

Just something to think about.

Live and Learn!!

One thing that someone posted on another board is the extended warranty that you get when you buy with a Master Card or Visa platinum. Had forgotten about that.

Anyone here have any experience with warranty with one of those cards?

Nobody tried the extended warranty with their credit card???????????????????????

Well, there have been a few negative comments on other threads on this board about getting DOA refurbs.

I suspect that it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but that is always a BIG risk, IMO.