Below I have posted the specs for the two versions. The main question I have is it seems the only specs that have changed are the weight, enclosure, and driver (being the same as the 500). I could be mistaken, but wouldn't the larger amp and "nifty" new circuit that Alan has talked about result in some better frequency response/dB specs? I know he said it rivals the 500 in some respects, but I guess I don't see how.

Or, is the website just not updated correctly to have the new measurement specs?

Specs EP350v2
Enclosure: Vortex / Reflex
Max Amp Power: 200 Watts
Cross-over Adjust 40 - 150 Hz
Phase 0 & 180
Woofer Size 12"
DSP Controlled No
Line In and Out Yes
Balanced Line In and Out No
High Level In Yes
Room Trim No
Dynamic Power Supply No
Anechoic Resp. +/- 1.5dB
Anechoic Resp. +/- 3dB 28 - 150 Hz
Room Resp. + 3dB/- 9dB 18 - 150 Hz
Max SPL Anechoic 107 dB
Max SPL In Room 118 dB
Dimensions HWD mm : 495 x 381 x 381
Dimensions HWD inches : 19.5 x 15 x 15
Weight lbs each: 51.1 lbs
Weight kg each: 23.179 kgs


EP350v3
Enclosure: Bass Reflex
Max Amp Power: 300 Watts
Cross-over Adjust 40 - 150
Phase 0 & 180
Woofer Size 12"
DSP Controlled No
Line In and Out Yes
Balanced Line In and Out No
High Level In Yes
Room Trim No
Dynamic Power Supply No
Anechoic Resp. +/- 3dB 28 - 150
Room Resp. + 3dB/- 9dB 18 - 150
Max SPL Anechoic 107 dB
Max SPL In Room 118 dB
Dimensions HWD inches : 19.5" x 15" x 19.5"
Dimensions HWD mm : 495 x 381 x 495
Weight (lbs) each: 76 lbs
Weight (kg) each: 34.5 kg

Here's the same data, easier to read and compare.

25lbs is alot to gain.

but whats the point in the changes if there is no increase in output?

The table might be misleading. I am not sure they have "official" frequency response curves yet for the v3 and are being conservatives by reusing most of the numbers from v2. Otherwise, it would be totally pointless.

hopefully someone from axiom will clarify

I'm sure there's differences but to say it would be pointless otherwise would be incorrect as the new 350 would be using the same cabinet and driver from the 500. Produciton costs should be lower and they can build 2 different models (aside from amp) during the same production run...

Alan and Ian said the changes were for audio reasons, not anything else. So the difference must be found in the audio specs.

Link: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=179265

My guess is the specs are not updated yet?

I currently have the 350V2, which i bought last june. I am interested in upgrading to the V3. Will the trade up program allow this, and if so, what do you think the difference will add up to? Would it be worth while? I sort of find that the V2 might be a little too small for a large basement room (~3000 cubic feet)

^ If I were going to upgrade, I'd go with the EP500, which has the same footprint but deeper and louder bass.

i would jump to the 500, but i didnt exactly have a budget for that. I was not thinking of upgrading at all, but if it wasnt going to cost that much, then i might. I dont think i need to spend any money right now really, just more of an inquary

The trade up program doesn't work quite like that, in order to get full trade up value you need to order quite a bit from Axiom. To trade up your EP350v2 for full trade up value you probably would need to spend at least $1500 at Axiom.

That is true, to maximize the trade in value you need to spend a certain amount. If you don't reach that amount you still get a reduced trade in credit. I ran the numbers in the Axiom trade in cart and a new 350 would cost you $303.20 in addition to your old sub. A new 500 would cost you $641.00.

I used the program to go from a VP100 to a VP150 and was very pleased with how easily things worked.

Greg

In talking to Alan via PM, it sounds like the new 350v3 is killer for the price. The 500 was involved in the AB testing done, and the 350v3 did ALMOST as good in many categories. So for the price, it would be great for many who want sub powered by a dynamic amp with performance rivaling its big brother in many respects.

I think I might buy one....

It will be kind of hard for me to run sub cable aroudn to the back of my room, so I may just pu it up front.

that would put two subs up front... but that has to be better than one sub up front right?

Is there really any question?

I think when putting 2 subs along the same wall, it might be best for them to be the same, however, these two may play nice. Opposite walls might help even out peaks/nulls in your room. When my two 350's arrive I'm going to spread them up front next to my 80's, then first try my 600 to the left of my seating area.

sooooo... you are suggesting that I need another 500 instead?

Randy, I'm looking forward to hear what you think about the new v3's. Since you've had the old 350 and the 500 it would be interesting to see how they all compare.
Now all you need to do is get a EP400 and you've had all Axioms large subs.

I'm anxious as well Michael, the waiting is on. Going from my first 350 to the 500 was a pretty dramatic difference. The old 350 was decent for its time. The jump to the 600 from the 500 was also noticable. I'm like a kid in a candy shop.

Randy,
I am anxious to hear your opinions as well. An Epic 80 system is just a key stroke away from placing the order. Not sure if I really need the EP350V3 or the EP500?

Magic email from Noreen.....my twin 350v3's are in route to the frozen tundra of Iowa.

Good news, Randy! Looking forward to reading your impressions of the new subs.

Awesome! Now we'll get a good review of how this sub compares to the old EP350 and the EP500.

Looking forward to his as I was thinking of a 500

Since I started with a 350v1 years ago, and then upgraded to a 500, and now 600, it will be interesting.

This is great news, I'll be interested in comparisons as well. Especially interested in how it sounds with all 3 subs going at once and how they blend with the 600. Knowing your room is rather open, where do you plan on placing them?

The placement/setup (phase/leveling) will be the really fun part

Can't wait to hear your impressions on the new sub.

thanks guys, my first plan is to try the 350's up front spread out next to my m80's. I think I will try the 600 along the left wall just behind the seating area.

what is strange is the fedex tracking says 62lbs, each 350 is 70+ lbs, so not sure what that is all about.

Fedex already dropped both boxes causing some pieces to fall out--a quick re-weigh and voila, lighter boxes.

maybe they bi-wired the two amps into one box? ;(

Or they injected them with helium to help increase productivity?

Yes, but the helium would cause the subs to woof in a higher pitched tone.

What your hearing is only the sound of high pithed bass!

I come here seeing 6 new replies, and I think to myself that someone must have received their new ep350 and has posted a short write up on it...

I should have known better

Ha. Yes but can't you see, this is all entirely relevant. As St_PatGuy pointed out, this obvious use of helium could greatly alter the bass produced by these more mobile ep350s. BTW, this should probably be included in the new specs for the v3.

Sorry for yet another pointless post

Maybe Axiom could inject the cabinets with Argon gas to lower the bass?

Maybe the weight on the Fed Ex was in metric.

Wasn't the old 350 about 62lbs?

I can't remember, but even two of them would be over 62lbs I would think, and 2 350v3's would be like 140+, so not sure why the Fed Ex tracking shows 62lb. Hope I get two subs that are V3.

52, I believe.

The 350v3 is over 70lbs, so two of them, you can do the math. I'll find out tomorrow I guess, scheduled for home delivery.

Not that it really matters as the weight is only there for charging the customer and even then it gets reweighed and a new charge sent out if the original weight was too light.

Customer as in Axiom, since shipping is free to us. Maybe they get special rates based on volume, not sure.

Oh, I meant that the v2 was 52 lbs.

that sounds about right, just checked tracking and it left Chicago last night at 10pm heading for Des Moines which is 5 hours, hope I get it or them today.

I'll have to call Axiom if I only get one, since my order was for two.... arggggggggggg

Just weighed mine, teetering on a bathroom scale (so not terribly accurate) and it came out to be about 72 lbs.

thanks doormat, so the specs on the product page are correct. Ingteresting that the FedEx tracking shows 62lbs. Oh well, it should be arriving any minute...

Purolator also had it listed at 62lbs.

Yeah, but I have two on order, not just one. ????

Unboxing these beasts now, they are awesome looking in custom Ebony Pica.

Anyway, for the other folks that have the new 350v3, did the box say "EP350v3 200 watts" on the side? I thought these were bumped up to 300 watts, according to the specs on the product page?

Yeah, I brought that up in the "... now shipping" thread . I think we just attributed that to the fact that the boxes were ordered before the final stats were known. Or a mistake in printing.

I've got them hooked up and trying to run my receiver calibration to balance everything. One of them as nothing coming out the driver. STarting my troubleshooting, hope it is something simple like a cable that came loose...

gotter done, the black wire for one of the drivers was not even hooked up, all is well and the rumbling as begun.

24 hrs later and still no initial thoughts? hmmmmm......must be having too much fun setting things up.

I've been spending a lot of time trying to get everything calibrated. My initial plan was to use the Velodyne SMS-1 to adjust the 350's and let the 600 just go through the receiver. The freq response was very smooth with no EQ. The problem was when I tried to adjust down some of the peaks using the sms-1(which generally is very easy to do) they actually got higher. I think it has something to do with interactions from having multiple subs and all the waves bouncig/colliding with each other.

I'm tossing around the idea of using the SMS-1 to find the best placement for my subs and then sell it.

My main problem is trying to calibrate SPL with the meter. I calibrated them all to 75dB's individually, but when they are all on, the dB's jump by about 9 dB's. Maybe I'm supposed to calibrate them lower so the sum gets me back to match the other speakers.

The 600 is crazy, I have to have the volume on the 600 at the lowest MIN setting and my Denon at -5dB and it is still higher than 75dB's on the meter, that is crazy. Because of this I have to really turn up the gain on the 350's, since the Denon is at -5dB. arggggggg

The joy of mismatched subs

Not sure that is it, I talked to Ian and Jakeman. Both said the 350v3s would match well to the 600. I think part of the problem is my Denon 2805. I know Alan and other say to put it at 0 for the sub level and then adjust up/down form the sub. There is no way I can do that with the 600. I would be hitting 90dB's with the receiver pink noise.

I think mojo has to run his Denon at -9. The subs sound awesome togethor, I'm just trying to figure out the best way to calibrate them all.

I think I might try to set the 600 to where you wnat and then bring the 350's up to match it.

That is kinda what I'm doing, something just bugs me having the gain on the sub at MIN, of course I'm still getting all 600 watts.

Randy,
Have you listened to your system with a single EP350V3? I am really interested in your feedback as I am on the fence with the EP500 vs the EP350V3.
Cheers,
Shaun

I'll see if I can do some more testing this week. I've been primarily working on getting all 3 subs calirated/positioned best. I did play some subwoofer test songs on Youtube with the 2 350's and they did put out some serious bass.

My room is very large, so I'll see how one 350 does...

Randy, a couple things...

While I adore Diana Krall, I think that some other avatar might give you more positive subwoofer Karma in the short term. Seriously.

Have you fiddled with room placement at all yet?

randy, why don't you calibrate your subs with your Denon to +10, and individually calibrate each sub to 75db. THen turn on all your subs and turn down the denon gain until the SPL in the room is 75db?

Quit giving him all these other ideas to try, I am anxiously waiting his review!

Jason,

You do realize you could have had a sub by now if you just purchased one! You are never going to know for sure which sub to get, so just bite the bullet and buy the EP350v3!

Actually I am going over to framer2180(Greg) in a few hours to compare the EP350 V2, V3 and the Paradigm DSP-3100($599). I wish I could have more time for a more thorough comparison but an hour will have to do. My initial thoughts of the 3100 is it is very similar to the EP400 but about half the price and only a little larger. A great sub for music but misses the mark for HT, just not enough power behind it for the explosive scenes.

Did the v2 ever have the big slot port, or was that part of the v3 only?

Ken, I think the slot port was introduced with v3.

If you look at the V2 EP175 it has the dual holes, pretty safe to predict the V2 350 had the same. The slot port is from the fact the V3 uses the EP500 case now.

Hokey dokey.

One of these days I want to try that calirating stuff, sounds like it *could* be fun.

Congrats on the deliveries Randy, can't wait to hear about your thoughts on this awesome combination!

Hutzal, to get my 600 at 75dB' on the meter, the gain in the sub as to be at a min. with the receiver on about -6dB. There is no way I could use +10, unless you want me to blow out all my windows, that would be like 100+dB's or more.

Tom, Yes, I have tried nearfield, next to the seating area, and currently I moved it to the back wall next to the walkout doors, this is crazy.

Well, as long as you have a camera present, I think blowing out your windows would be quite fun! That is so strange about Denon's. On my Yamaha, I am able to set the DB level of the whole system (the main volume) prior to calibration. It isn't a set volume, I didn't really see how it would be a problem, but now I can see in your case Randy, that the Denon's calibration set volume can be a bad thing.

Yep, the old 350 had dual front circle ports. Rick, I know you don't have a Denon, but your room is smaller than mine. Where do you have your receiver gain and sub gain at? When I had my 600 in the front left corner, I was able to get it up to about 7 o'clock but no further and still had the Denon at about -4dB.

This has to be a Denon thing.

Randy without looking at the receiver's sub setting, I'm thinking the receiver is set to -7 for the 600 and the sub's level is a little less than a 1/4 turn from off.

It doesn't take much volume for our room.

That is what I'm experiencing, my 600 is all the way off, and I have to put my receiver at like -6to7dB's to bet it showing 75dB or so on the meter. The problem is that I have to really crank up the gain on the 350's because the receiver is so low.

Then when I turn them all on, my SPL goes through the roof. I would think you would want 75dB's with them all running, which will be impossible with the 600 the way it is.

So what you're saying is you have too much sub.

Randy you need to get John's (Jakeman) phone number!

Randy, I think you may need a new reciever with a better bass management system, one that lets you adjust the master volume of the whole system when calibrating.

Denon would not be in the running for this.

I've got it, and may have to give him a call sometime. The other issue is my meter seems to read a lot different if I'm using 70dB versus 80db scale. Is either one more accurate than the other?

I know Jakeman says to calibrate your subs 3dB's lower than the speakers to get them the same.

I think that was for dual subs for three I think it might be more like 4-5 db lower.

my ep500 is set at 7 oclock and must be set at -10 db to get 75 db with the rest of my speakers.

I have the denon 3808

I've noticed that if you get the receiver set to low, then the graphs I've done with the SMS-1 or Rew suffer and create dips in the lower freq's. I've found on my 2805 that I have to stay above -8dB's or so..to keep the graph smoother.

Next question, is that due to Denon doing something weird with their control or the subs inability to play a softer signal?

Hmm.. Maybe I should turn the sub down closer to "min" and up the db in the receiver as close to 0 as possible... I always fel that 7 oclock on the dial was low enough.... Mayby I should turn it lower.

When I hooked up two ep 500's I noticed something weird. I had them daisy chained... The sub that came directly from the receiver Had to be set ver low (7 oclock like it is now) but the ep500 daisy chained off of the first sub had to be set at 60% volume for them to be equal in output. (perhaps it was a placement issue?)

Anyway- I had to ship the second sub back before I could do any more experimentation.

Lets go back to first principles.

Besides smoother FR, more sub headroom and better amp efficiency, another major benefit from multiple subs comes from mutual coupling or "free" output. Depending on placement dual subs will generate up to 6db more output, 3 subs up to 9 db, and 4 subs up to 12 db. In Randy's case he appears to be getting the additional output of 9db. Here's how I would calibrate:

1. Make sure the sub trim at the processor is at -10 or well below the midpoint but leave yourself some room if necessary to lower sub trim further.

2. Make sure the speakers are level matched at 75db. Make sure all subs are bypassed and phase is at 0 . Measure the distance of the 3 subs plus 3 ft for the 600 DSP and another 3 ft for the SMS DSP. Divide by 3 and use that to set the distance for the subs.

3. Shut off the EP350v3s( let's call them A and B) and run a sweep to just the 600. Raise gain at the sub so that the 600 is calibrated at only 70db (that's right 70db). This may take time because the DSP circuit at that level is very sensitive to small changes in the volume control on the 600.

4. Shut off the 600 and 350v3 B. Run a sweep and adjust gain at sub 350v3 A to 70db.

5. Shut off the 600 and 350v3 A> Run a sweep and adjust gain at sub 350v B to 70db.

6. The only sub that should be on is 350v3 B. Now turn on 350v3 A and run the sweep so both 350s engaged. You should measure around 75db. If not check your polarity on one of the subs.

7. Turn on the 600 so all subs are on and run a sweep. you should measure around 76-78db.

8. Now using your SMS dispaly to see where to adjust the phase switch on the 600. Choose the phase which gets you the smoothest response not the loudest volume. The ep350v3s at the front should be at 0 phase.

9. Using the SMS connected to the 350s and running sweeps. Disable the SMS low pass filter and crossover. Adjust the variable phase in the SMS test menu in increments of 15 deg to find the smoothest FR.

10. Now use the SMS parametric filters to cut peaks only. You may need to go back and check the phase settings again once you have set the filters. With multiple subs the filters will sometimes raise peaks or lower nulls so experiment in both directions. Nice thing about all those subs is you aren't using up much headroom in the sub amp so you can raise the filters if necessary.

11. You should be close to 75-78db with all 3 subs engaged. You may want to check different crossover settings to get the smoothest response. Adjust sub trim at the processor to where you want your target SPL for all 3 subs combined.

12. Move the subs around slightly to find the best placement and FR for that configuration.

13. Change the delay in the processor while running sweeps to see if it smooths FR.

14. Go back to #8 above and review all settings one more time to fine tune.

Let me know.

Jakeman, if you recall, I do not have the 600 going through the SMS-1, just the 350's. The 350's are setup on the front wall. It is 15ft wide and I have the drivers exactly 1/3 from the side walls, or 5ft apart.

The 600 initially was placed to the sides of the listening area, and at the same distance as the front subs, also taking into mind the 3ft delay.

I found that the graph was smoother when I placed the 600 along the back wall, close to the rear corner about 6ft in.

Sounds good so far Randy. It read like your problems stemmed more from trying to calibrate each sub at 75db rather than something less to account for the "coupled" output.

SMS on either both or one 350v3 is what I would attempt first. When you set the SMS filters also try it with one 350v3 if you are having trouble cutting the peaks. As you pointed out, with multiple subs cutting output on one sub can result in increased peaks elsewhere because of the way the sound waves from the 3 subs are reinforcing or cancelling each other.

Also if setting sub level at 70db still results in combined sub output close to 80db you will need to set the subs to say 68db.

If you set it up right, you may be able to do away with the SMS entirely though I find its a great tool even when not connected.

PS I like your new avatar but she doesn't look like you.

I'll play around some more this week. I like the SMS-1 as you can watch the curve change without filters. It was strange that with all the subs at 180 I had the flattest curve. I figured since the front subs were next to my 80's, "0" would be better, but the curve had a lot of peaks(humps) in the lower freq's.

Sounds like I pretty much followed your methods as you descibed. When I was trying to reduce peaks, say at 50hz, it would raise instead of go down, usually peaks are easier to lower? I was just worried about having the Denon to low on the sub gain, as this required me to crank the 350's up to about 3/4.

I wouldn't be too concerned about where you set the gain on the sub since what matters is cumulative line voltage from the processor and the sub volume control. ie. low processor and high sub volume is the same os high processor and low sub volume though I prefer low processor volume to keep distortion as low as possible.

John, one more question in regards to my statements above using the SPL meter. Do you use 70 or the 80 on the selection dial? It seems if I use 70, and calibrate all my speakers to 75, when I switch it to 80, it reads around 78 or so dB's. Likewise, if I use 80 on the dial, then go down 5dB's to 75dB, it shows about 73dB when the selection dial is on 70.

I'm just trying to make sure I'm calibrating to 75dB.

That's a new one Randy. Something is off. But its not a problem as long as you leave the setting at one place and use it for both speakers and subs. I'd suggest leaving it at 70db since that is the central part of the range where you want to calibrate the subs.

Oh gosh, I ammuse myself at times. Just a reminder to all to check your battery from time to time, amazing what a fresh battery will do. Now it is working.....back to calibrating.

John,

With my Denon on the lowest setting of -12dB and my 600 gain all the way to the lowest setting "Min". I'm still getting about 72dB on the meter, I can't get it down to 70dB. The 600 is about 16ft behind the main chair just to the left of the walkout door. Ignore the black square in that corner, that is my planned bass trap column.

Can't you just pop up the levels on the other channels 3 or 4 dB and go from there?

Kcarlile is right. Instead of calibrating speakers to 75db, try levelling speakers to 85db and the subs to 80db so you have some room to lower the sub trim if necessary.

You are getting an unusually high signal out of that Denon! What model is it?

2805

I went through everything, and am using -11dB on the receiver right now. I'm getting a combined 77-78 dB's with all 3 subs using my RS meter from the listening position.

The flattest response before EQ comes with my 600 at 180 phase. Interesting enough, I remember Ian and Alan saying placing the 500 and 600's on 80hz versus bypass brings about a flatter response around the crossover point. I am seeing that on the SMS graph.

Maybe I'll try a higher goal point of 85dB's.

I'm talkin bout sum serious lowwwwwwwwwwwwww FEEEEEEEEEEE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mUcslrHEZrY

randy,

Is there a way to put that video into *.avi, *.wmv or *.mpg so I can access it via windows media center?

World's Leading Bass Test?

I can capture the audio and upload it. I'll have an .mp3 for you momentarily.

UltimateBassTest.mp3 (6.6mb best quality VBR file)

odd, I can't hear any bass at all coming from my laptop.

Glad to hear you're making some headway, sirQ.

cool!, thanks peter!

-David

Edit: spoke to soon... says it won't let me open the file

all that work for nothing. Thanks a lot.

I think I may be missing some kind of codec....

Sounds like you are good to go right there. I'd leave it for a while before tweaking it further. Also make a note of all your settings so you have a reference point.

Cool youtube file, Randy. Thanks for the mp3 pmbuko.

I didn't get a chance to mess with the SMS-1 filtering, etc. tonight.

For those with computers and a decent sound card, just use coax or optical to your receiver, no need to use media center. Youtube has lots of this stuff, just search for "subwoofer test"

We'll even if I use 80 as the target my Qs8's are maxed at +12, the 350 gain is almost max, the SW levels on the receiver are at -10, and the 600 is just a hair above MIN.

I think I'm going to ditch the Denon's pink noise and try my AviaII DVD.

guess that is not going to work, the stupid test tones in the AviaII disk cycle to fast from speaker to speaker and it is nearly impossible to keep up with the Denon on which speaker and deal with the Denon's timeout. argggggg

I have another setup cd I'll try now...

Is each tone a different track? What I usually do with DVE is set the track on repeat until I'm done with each channel. I so look forward to doing this again with a new sub...

It shows a picture of a room and cycles through all the speakers one at a time about every 5 seconds. So as it cycles, you have to keep hitting the button on the Denon remote to keep up with the speaker your on. It does not give you enough time to finish each speaker, so it is like a merry go round, very frustrating. Then the Denon times out if you don't keep adjusting the levels up/down, so you start back on the LF, but if the software is on the Rear surround your out of synch.

Sorry, this really pisses me off.

I"m back to using the Denon and trying different locations on the 600 away from the corner, but having similar problems. I think the problem is this dang Denon. There is no reason I should have to be at -11dB with the 600 on MIN and the lowest SPL I can achieve is like 75dB's no lower. This screws up the calibration for the other subs/speakers. I have to crank the 350's almost to MAX, and my surrounds are on +12 (the highest it can go and other speakers about +7.

I know I'm going on and on, but this should be easier than this.

That's a stupid calibration disk.

Randy, Did you not have the 600 hooked up to the denon before?

Yes, I always have used the Denon. The 600 was placed near the front left corner. I think I've always been running the 600 hotter than should be done, as I was usually around 7 o'clock with the receiver on about -6dB's. I'm sure I was exceeding 80dB's with the pink noise then...

I've called Axiom tonight and will receive a follow up call tomorrow night.

You can download test tones and burn your own cd and put the player on repeat for the track you want.

http://www.bitcore.org/stuff/Bass_Tones/

Your Denon should have it's own test tones built in. At least mine does. I had the same frustration with the Avia disk for the sub but the Denon sub tone stays on until you turn it off.

I also had a weird, still unexplained, issue with the Avia sub tone where it freaked out my meter and it kept jumping up and down by up to 10 db. I am aware that the disk cycles between sub only and sub plus a speaker to check for phase but this happened continually during the sub only part.

I thought maybe I was running too hot or something but using the Denon's test tone resulted in a smooth, even reading that I was able to calibrate with.

Murph, I think he is having problems calibrating his 4 subs and wanted to try it with a different test tone than what is built into the receiver.

Over the years I've found alot of problems with receiver/processor test tones even among the same models. With my current processor for example an Arcam avp700 the test tones are too low, not enough signal to properly calibrate and the opposite of Randy's problem. Also running tones or sweeps using the player aligns both the player and reciever/processor thereby removing any inconsistencies with the player. All you need are some descent test tones. I like the Discwasher Calibration Disc best. It's accurate and has constant 5.1 tones making it a more practical audio tool than Avia or DVE. Besides its only $3.

http://www.amazon.com/DISCWASHER-1509-Home-Theater-Calibration/dp/B00006I58D

Yep, the Denon is what I've always used to calibrate the tones, but it is causing grief, read above.

I've got the discwasher also. My question is where do I put the master volume before starting to calibrate the speakers. The receiver automatically locks to "0" on the dial when doing the pink noise tones.

I assume I reset all the levels to "0", then turn up the master dial to a point using the discwasher cd that is pretty loud, before adjusting the denon levels? Even with the discwaher cd, you still have to cycle the Denon by pushing a remote button in this order LF, C, RF, RS, RRS, LRS, LS, SW. And it times out if you don't keep it active, really sucks.

What about the sub Jakeman, do you use the discwhaser for that as well?

Time for a new processor. Yes I use it to set the subs as well.

But Klaus doesn't make processors, does he?

I think its safe to say I will never guy a Denon. I am sure they are great receivers, however this is a problem that can potentially cause alot of grief.

I'll never guy a Denon, either. Ew.

I actually know a guy named Denon, and I don't think he would like you to either....

It might cause his test tones to be way out of whack.

As John noted it isn't just Denon that has the issue and easily bypassed with test tone cds.

Yes, but where do you set your receivers main volume when running the tones? The built in tones, lock the volume at "0" and then you just adjust each channel up/down 12dB's?

Wouldn't you put all your speaker levels at 0 and start from the front left and increase the master volume until the 75db mark is achieved? Then go through the rest of the speakers using the individual settings to match the 75db level while leaving the master volume alone?

I believe the test tones are preset in each receiver for either 75 db or 80 db when it says 0, it is just a reference point.

So the reference point can be what ever you want. Start at the usual LF adjust receiver volume to have LF speaker at 75 db and 0 on the speaker level and then continue from there, just as HAY said.

I'm really starting to feel sorry for Randy and all those subwoofers he has to deal with.

I'm here for ya, buddy.

I think his life might be easier if he just sent me the EP600 then he only has to deal with the dual 350s.

I'll try it the way Hay and Jake said and see if I have the same problems with my subs varying so much...Brent is calling me back tonight as well after talking to TomC.

Hey Jakeman,

In using the discwasher setup audio tones, it says to adjust the subwoofer levels so they are 3dB higher than the other speakers in the room you just calibrated? I know you normally go 3dB below? It says if this setup requires you to adjust the subwoofer to a maximum gain, then it says to rerun the other speakers again but approximatley 3dB's lower, then rerun the sub?

Oh, the curse of the audiophile...

Wish I could help you... good luck, my friend.

Looks like the discwasher worked better for me than using the Denon pink noise. I calibrated all my speakers to 80dB's, then calibrated each sub to 75dB's one at a time. Once they are all working togethor they are hitting about 81-2dBs. My Denon SW level is on -8dB, the 600 gain is about 7 o'clock, and the 350's are about 2 o'clock. I hope I finally have it all setup correctly.

Randy, all they are saying is to set the subs +3db for more LFE. Set it where you like. I like to set all the subs to the speaker level then raise sub levels to taste depending on the movie. That way I know where to find reference levels for the subs. If you want to start at +3db or +5db that is fine as well as long as you know your initial setting from calibrated speaker reference. My main concern is to make sure you have enough play in adjusting trim in both directions.

Looks good. Now don't fool around with it for awhile and just give us your impressions on the new subs.

Yeah, Randy, abide the order of St. Fual (Shut The F Up And Listen)

Yeah man

The LFE is so intense it could make a guy sick.

So far I am very impressed with the 350's.

Oh, goooood....

I was trying to figure out how you used the DISHWASHER to calibrate your subs.....


Then I re-read your post

So, should I go with a EP350v3 or EP500?

Yes.

Well said Tom.

Ditto.

Sorry guys, I'm up in the Twin Cities (MN) this weekend on company business. Will be back to my subs on Tuesday. Will experiment with the 600 not in the equation to see how the 350v3's stand up in my huge room.

We are patiently waiting Randy.....

Tom,
Thanks for your input
I don't think I'll be able to convince my significant other to purchase two subs. We just moved into our new home this week and my wife gave me the go ahead to order a new home theatre system
Cheers,
Shaun

Congrats on the new home, Shaun. Best wishes for many happy years.

I'll be eager to hear Randy's impression of the EP350. He has a pretty complete frame of reference, even if his room is too damn big to be relevant to us mere mortals.

Well, if she gave you the go ahead then you must be able to decide what you need. You NEED 2 subs.

Congratulations on the new home and please post pics of the new HT when done.

Tom,
Thanks for your well-wishes. We are very happy with the new home.
Speaking of big rooms; my home theatre room is 28'x 15'! That's why I am on the fence regarding the subs. I'll be waiting for Randy's expert opinion
Cheers,
Shaun

I might need two subs but I am trying to factor in a new 50"+ t.v. as well. It will be a while before I'll be able to post some pics...

Whoa, that's a big room. Mine has a similar footprint, but with a cathedral ceiling and it opens to a two-story foyer. After living in this space with only one SVS-PB12ISD for a few years, my opinion is that big spaces can benefit very significantly from multiple subs. If I want to actually acquire a second sub, it's going to need to fit in better aesthetically than another black box, so I'm seriously considering a DIY thing.

That being said, I think a new TV is WAY more important than a second sub.

Randy,

Set the Denon cross-over to 40Hz, switch the 600 to 40Hz and the 350s to 60Hz and then calibrate each one to the same SPL using a 40Hz tone.

He just gets it right and now you go and screw him up. We are never going to get a review!

Is anybody else surprised we haven't blown any fuses on this project yet?

40hz crossover is to low for the other speakers, 80hz works best overall for music/HT in my opinion. Besides, I want the sub to do the work it is best at, that 80hz and below.

I know that the 150 and the QS8s get anemic below 75Hz but I've found that this is what works best. Otherwise the 600 sounds too darned "bloated" and "thick" with its 4th order, large vented enclosure. I find that I don't miss anything out of the 150 and the QS8s with a 40Hz cross-over.

BTW, this is what I liked about the 350V3. No "bloat", "thickness" and better transient response ("tightness"?).

The vent only contributes output below Fb, the subs tuning frequency. While its true all vents contribute some noise, the ports on the ep350v3, ep500 and ep600 are designed to be very quiet. They contribute far less resonance than smaller round or slotted ports found on most other subs with this alignment. Its an important aspect of overall sound quality when comparing vented subs.

Bloated thick bass is not characteristic of the ep600. In my HT, listeners usually describe the 600 as more natural and full of textures. Bloated sound from a high quality sub arises when the mains/sub are not in phase, and/or not blended well at the crossover point and/or room acoustical problems at those frequencies and corresponding room nodes.

40 hz is too low with the 150s and qs8s. If you have a flexible bass management system which allows individual crossovers for speakers I would set those at 90hz and certainly no lower than 80hz. Also setting the crossover too low puts more burdens on low powered receiver amps which are overtaxed to begin with in most HT systems.

Room treatments are always in the back of my mind but I'm still hesitant to go there. Until I do, I get far better "kick" or "punch" at a 40Hz cross-over while retaining the "soft" textures that most of us agree the 600 is wonderful at. BTW, I didn't feel these textures were missing with the 350V3; they were however a touch "harder" which I actually liked very much.

I had the pleasure of hearing the EP 600 at the other Ricks house. The last description I would use is bloated. I had a hard time believing it was even on it was so smooth.

Bloated is perhaps the wrong word. I feel the transient response is not there at the start of each note and at the end. I don't have this problem with the Sony or the 350v3. I've often thought of stuffing the box with polyfill to dampen the response but have never gotten around to it. This would sacrifice some of the low end but should "tighten" the sound (at least it did with the Sony).

Rick, was this the first time you heard a 600?

Gotta go now. Veal shanks are awaiting for my Osso Buco.

While it is possible your ep600 has issues mine doesn't, from all your descriptions and data it reads like its your room that is causing the problem combined with how you have it configured with your other speakers.

Mojo, do you still run your 600 hot? If I recall you calibrate it close to 80+dB's?

Yeah Tex, that is the only time I heard the 600.

Randy,

I settled on 80 for movies and 75 for music.

These 350's are awesome. I've been leaving my 600 out of the loop for now, calibrated the speakers to 75dB and the subs individually to 70dB, which brings them up combined to around 75dB's.

When playing some of the subwoofer test songs on youtube they are tight, deep, and gutwrenching. I also just ran through some of the RealTraps test tones that start at 10hz and work up to 300hz in 1hz increments every 10 seconds. With my volume adjusted to 70dB's from 13ft away, the 350's combined started registering at 15hz with around 60dB's and rised to 70dB's at 17hz. If just using 1 350 I was at 19hz to achieve the 70dB's.

Keep in mind that my room is 7500 cu ft. These 350's are amazing.

So which do you prefer sound-wise? The 350 or the 600?

Haven't really decided yet. I'm having issues with my 600 amp and have a call into JC and Tom to provide feedback. This is why I was having issued calibrating the sub into the mix. The 600 goes lower with more output, the 350's do sound nice deep and tight though.

I need to also test various movie HT scenes like the Nemo Darla scene, whale scene, etc.

Ok. Remember to test music too.

Hey Randy,

I think I remember looking at graphs of your room before and after you applied bass traps and stuff. Maybe it was someone else...

Will you be redoing these again to compare the low frequency spikes and dips now that you may have eliminated some standing wave issues with the multiple subs?

Yep it was me, and I hope I can provide some additional graphs at some point. Everyone loves my graphs, lol...

I can tell you that my initial sweep using the SMS-1 was looking pretty nice...

Got my new ep600 amp, will keep you all posted as I get it swamped out.

Randy, try setting it outside to let it air out. . .

funny, actually my wife called when it got dropped off, the crate was a little wet so I had her bring it in to dry off.

Ok, just installed my replacement 600 amp, all these amps are sounding soooooooooooosweet.

ps: how do I stop my windows from vibrating.

Crank it up till they shatter - no more vibrating windows

Good vibes!

Randy,

Why did you have to replace your amp?

I was wondering the same thing...

Hey guys, I thought I told ya, but another fine A+++customer service for Axiom. When I was calibrating my 3 subs over the last few weeks I noticed that the 600 level would not stay consitant.

If you recall I was having a hard time as I had to set the Gain to MIN with -12 on the Denon, which caused me to max out the gain on the 350's, something seemed wrong.

Then, all of a sudden my 600 would spike 40dB's from 70 to 100 on the SPL meter, I was like what the heck? I found out that if I took my index finger and applied pressure to the back amp plate anywhere, it would spike up. Or, if I pushed on any of the knobs the same thing would happen.

So I worked with JC and got a replacment amp sent to me. It is working like a charm.

I recall times in the past when watching movies that I was turning the gain up/down all the time, this explains whey the levels would not stick.

Anyway, the new amp does not have bypass, but 150 on the crossover. I'm wondering if this amp has the brickwall removed at 100hz.

The ep500 I bought in november had bypass written on it, but the replacement they sent me a couple months ago has 150 hz instead... must be a very recent change.

Randy, try to stress out the new amp and let us know what you think. Does it sound different? more snap/punch?

so far I like what I'm hearing compared to the old 600 amp, I'll try some more testing....seems to be more musical with more punch so far.....

That's exactly what I'm looking for!

You don't say!

I guess the question to ask is the new amp making it punchier because the old one had a problem or is it due to the higher cut off point?

Double post

ok, this may be a Jakeman question, but I noticed something that makes no sense. I have my subs daisy chained togethor, so I have receiver to 350(1) to 350(2) to 600. I've tried using seperate coax lines to them but I get the same results with the spl meter, so looks like daisy chaining is ok. ?

Anyway, I noticed something weird tonight. I'm using the SMS-1 to just plot my graph right now, I am not running any of the subs throught it, just using the mic to see what happens as I move mysubs around, etc.

Anyway, I have a very high hump around 40hz or so, so I was trying to move my 600 around, wewwww, to see if that helped. So then I turned off the power to the 600 and the graph didn't change much, other than the slope fell off sooner in the lowww hz.

Then I unplugged my line in cable to the 600 and my graph from 25-40hz pegged at the top range of the SMS-1 graph. Plugging the cable back into the Line In on the 600 dropped the graph as I was seeing before.

If the sub is turned off and all I am doing is unplugging/plugging in the line in cable, how can the change the graph unless there is some type of feedback going back to the 350's in the chain?

post count whore



Randy, I am perfectly willing to give you a free ride on the validity of your perceptions, despite the lag time and placebo effect. Scientists among us may dispute you, though.

Two possibilities:

1. The subs are loading down your Denon. Unplugging a sub relieves the load.

2. The phase relationship between your 600 and the other subs is causing a dip when the 600 is turned on and a rise when it is off.

Regarding the first point, I cannot daisy-chain a sub to my 600 as my Denon gets over-loaded and output is reduced. I've tried daisy-chaining my Sony with a Hsu and have had no problems. But if I try that same Sony with the 600, I end up having loading problems.

Although I am not thrilled with this, I doubt that I will ever use multiple subs so I am just living with it.

Do you get the same results if you use a Y-cable or Y-adapter to split the signal at the receiver sub-out?

Another thing I've noticed is that when both 350's are turned on up front, I get a low humming sound from my center channel speakers. Is this a 60hz hum or whatever you guys call it?

It goes away or diminishes when I turn one of the 350's off, and totally goes away with they are both off.

Using a Y-cable doesn't fool the electrons .

What happens when you move the 350s physically further from your center?

I've spread them out as far as possible, almost touching my 80's and the hum is still there. It is not real loud, but when everything is quiet I can hear it 12ft away. So whether they are right below the center touching, or 8ft apart, still have the hum, unless I turn one or both of them off.

What happens if you loosen a ground screw on one or both of them?

I'm not aware of a ground screw on the 350's, only the DSP subs.

Oh, good point!

Randy, I'm baffled as to why you continue to expect successful results when plugging things into electrical outlets in that portal-to-hell you call a basement.

Jakeman, calling Jakeman, any ideas.

What happens when you disconnect your cable right where it comes into your house?

What cable are you referring to, the main power supply from the transformer, not sure that would be something our power company would want me messing with, besides not sure that would resolve anything other than shutting down our power. If I was going to do that I would just flip the main breaker.

The cable that brings video into your house.

They make those things? I need to get one.

Tom, it really hurts when the water I'm drinking comes out my nose. . .

Seal off your nasal passages while reading the board. And take a picture.

With all the Photoshopping that goes on around here *cough*peter*cough* I'm hesitant to post any more photos of myself.

Of course, if I do seal off my nasal passages there may be no need for Photoshop. . .

If you were drinking saline, it wouldn't hurt so much.

Mmm, yummy.

Couple of questions on this topic (or at least loosely related)...

Why does adding more subs to the daisy chain bog down the receiver when all of the power for the subs comes from the subs' onboard amps?

Second... and even further off topic (sorry Randy)... Does splitting the cable from the receiver with a Y-splitter before going into a sub have any effect (i.e. splitting the connection and plugging two connections into the sub as opposed to one)?

I noticed somthing when I had a second ep500 in my house..

The first one going to the reciever was set near min (maybe at the 6-7 oclock position.

The second one I had daisy chained required the gain to be set at a much higher value to provide the same output...
placement was a small factor but I have placed my first sub in both of those locations and there was not that BIG of a difference.

I had sub 1 powered off with the second sub daisy chanied from it when calibrating.. maybe I had to crank up the volume b/c the 1st sub was switched off?

"The cable that brings video into my house" ????????

Umm, not sure what your talking about Mojo. Are you assuming I have cable tv? I watch free HD over the air with antenna on the room with with rabit ears or RG6 from the antenna. This would not apply to my audio equipment.

Yes, I assumed you have cable TV. I don't think we get HDOA up here yet.

All subs have input impedance. The higher the input impedance on your sub, the more load on your receiver's sub output. Splitting with a Y cable doesn't make a difference. The receiver sees the same load.

I'm only checking in every few days because I'm still holidaying in FL.

In any event Mojo answered your question about why FR changed when you unplug the 600. Its how the waves are interacting betweent the subs. You want the nodes to lessen in the room which happens when a peak and null originating from different subs interact, reinforce or cancel. The fact that you have a peak at 40hz means you need to tweak placement or phase some more.

About the hum. Not much you can do if it occurs when you are plugging subs into different outlets. To get rid of hum in my HT I ran extension cords from one outlet to get several subs on the same ground. Some people use cheater plugs with the ground removed. Also using surge suppressors with 60hz filters on every outlet sometimes helps keep down hum. If it persists I would suggest relocating the subs away from the fronts rather that listen to hum from a speaker.

A surge suppressor with a 60Hz filter would prevent AC power from reaching the appliance since AC power is 60Hz on this side of the planet.

Understood. Some surge suppressors have filters to reduce line noise which contributes to the hum. After I installed one, hum at one of my subs dropped so it was no longer noticeable.

Jakeman, this would make sense if the 600 was actually running. I have it turned off and unplugged. When I remove the Line In coax that is coming form my 2nd 350, the SMS-1 graph jumps and pegs from 30-50 hz or so. None of the subs are running through the sms-s, just watching the graph.

As soon as plug the coax back in, it tames down, I still have the 40hz hump.

I left you an audix at your home.

I have a dedicated 20am circuit running my AV area. The only thing plugged into my TrippLite HTPowerbar10 is my receiver and cdplayer and projector. My Odyssey amps and subs are plugged into other outlets in the room on the same circuit. The 600 is actuall in the back of the room on a different circuit.

Randy,

To limit or eliminate the effect of a ground loop, all of your audio equipment should be powered from the same branch. And to eliminate or limit the effect of conducted noise and transients, no other load (eg. a blender ) should be placed on that branch.

By branch I assume you mean outlet on the same circuit? For all the subs I've used, the 350v1, ep500, ep600, and now 350v3', they have always been plugged into an outlet installed in my riser which is on the same 20amp circuit to the HT room

I have never heard this noise until now and nothing has really changed. All my other audio equipment is hooked up in the AV closet to the tripplite, except the Odyssey amps straigh to the wall.

No other products, blenders, refrigerators, microwaves, etc. are on this circuit, branch, or tree.

Each branch has its own breaker.

Maybe you should try adding a blender. The emissions from the blender may destructively interfere with the sub noise .

If it makes you feel any better, I have a slight hum with my 600 but it never interferes with listening. As a matter of fact, no one notices it unless I point it out to them.

Mojo, didn't you say the hum disipated when the lights were turned off or maybe that was someone else? I keep meaning to bringht the PF60 down to see if it actually helps with noise issues.

The light thing was a problem with the Emotiva MPS-1, lonnie sent me a new amp that was altered and the problem went away. To bad the amp was sent back anyway.

Randy had a light thing going but so did I. I have 34 pot lights in my basement and they emit tons of noise. But it's above the audible spectrum and most likely the result of my dimmer(s). I wonder if they'll end up giving me skin cancer or something.

Or a hell of a sun tan.

Dude, what's the light-to-plant ratio?

Is that legal?

Brent and JC are going to pass my info onto Tom and Ian for feedback. Makes no sense if the 600 is not even turned on or power chored plugged in that it would affect the graph when you unplug/plug in the coax that is daisy chained from the 2nd 350.

Randy,

Can you draw is a picture and then make reference to the coax that you are talking about?

eg. denon--600--350--350

I can tell you right now that even with my 600 unplugged, I can't daisy-chain another sub with the 600 without losing a considerable amount of gain from that sub. The amp has a high input impedance.

Denon....12ftcoax.....350v3......10ftcoax.......350v3......25ftcoax........ep600

Will there be a difference in effect between daisy chaining and putting a Y-splitter right at the Denon input and running a separate Coax to each sub?

I've got my second sub on order, so this is an informative discussion for me in determining how I'll be doing my own setup.

Yeah, it'll be good to know. I plan on running multiple subs eventually. I'm using balanced XLR cables, though. Are there splitters for those?

Google says there are:

XLR Splitter 1-Female to 2-Male

I know that at Mojo's, we are unable to daisy chain as the input impedance on the 600 is too high and we are not able to run the second sub at equal SPL due to the cut down signal. Knowing this, I would go for the Y-splitter at the receiver,

I gotta wonder if there's something wrong with Mojo's sub (this is going to be an expensive post...). If axiom put the pass throughs on the sub, they should work properly. From what Alan's said, they're essentially just a y-connector inside the sub--you can plug into either one for input!

I had this same problem Jason, but with my current amp I do not have that problem with my 600. I don't think this problem is related, could be wrong then.

I guess Mojo should try one more new amp then.

I mentioned this before- when I had dual 500's for a few days I daisy chained them together... The first one had to be set at 6 oclock, but the second sub that was daisy chained off of the first had to be set to at least 9 o clock to get the same output. A small part of this may have been from placement but not much.

Is this normal? Could this be avoided by using a Y splitter?

I want to order a ep600 to pair with my ep500 and want to know the best way to approach this.

Thanks!

I don't believe there's a manufacturing defect with my amp. I've had a number of them now and they all behave the same way. Sure there's a Y-splitter inside but it doesn't somehow magically negate the amp's input impedance. Neither does an external Y-splitter.

So I understand that when you unplug the 25 ft. coax, the output on your 350s increases?

If so, I am not surprised as I've explained before.

Yes, I believe that is what I'm saying. The below graph is an old one with just a 600 up front, but it will help explain what I'm seeing. An interesting note is that my graph is not as flat currently with the 350's up front and the 600 in back, which kinda goes against what Dr O'Toole and Ian have been stating about using subs up front and in back?

Anyway, when I unplug the 25ft coax from the LineIn on the 600 with the 600 turned off and unplugged, the graph from about 30hz to 50hz spikes up to 87dB's on the graph, basically a straight line across those frequencies. As soon as I plug it back in it looks how it did previously.



When Jakeman wanted me to calibrate each sub individually, one at a time, and then plug them all in, I assumed I would still have the coax lines hooked up, just power the subs off/on one at a time.

When you unplug the 600, the impedance that your Denon is seeing goes down. Hence its output goes up and that's why you are seeing the spike. The 600's input impedance is sucking down your Denon's output...just like it's sucking down mine. Now don't ask me what design decisions lead to a low input impedance. Maybe Axiom was worried about noise...I don't know.

Mo, as Ken pointed out, the daisy-chain arrangement is a straight feed-through of the audio signal in a Y type of configuration inside the sub. The split occurs before the sub amp and the signal to the next sub never enters the sub amp itself, so the input impedance of the amp is irrelevant and in that sense is "negated".

JohnK, can you read above a few pages and possibly comment on what is going on with my situation. When I unplug the LineIn cable from my 600 sub with the sub totally turned off and unplugged, my freq graph shoots up in the lower frequencies like the gain was turned up greatly.

I have my subs daisy chained from my Denon

Denon...ep350v3.....ep350v3...........ep600v2

Randy, I've been more or less following your latest adventure, but since Tom already commented on the demons in your listening room, I've had nothing worthwhile to add. Unless the internal arrangement of the EP600 wiring is different from any other sub that I'm aware of, removing the coax cable from it with the sub turned off should have no effect whatever on the overall frequency response.

Guys,

The 600 amp is in parallel with all of the other subwoofer amps. Y-tap or not, the amp is drawing current and that loads down the Denon. And it's drawing current whether it is on or not. I've had this issue with all three of the 600 amps that have come my way.

Well I just did some basic testing using an SPL meter from my primary seat.

*First of all let me say prior to these test I calibrated each sub one by one to 73dB's. I had them all daisy chained togethor, but only powered on each sub one by one and then turned them all on for a combined dB of around 80 dB's.


tests:
1) Only hooked up ONE 350v3 to my Denon's sub line out jack. No other subs daisy chained to the sub. SPL from seated position around 80dB's, keep in mind this sub was calibrated to 73dB's when daisy chained togethor with other 2 subs, so a 7dB increase in gain.

2) Daisy chained my second 350v3 to the first 350v3 mentioned in option 1 above. Left 2nd 350v3 powered off. It was hard to tell from the meter but it is possible I may have lost beetween 0-.5 dB. So still showing about 79.5 to 80dB's or still about 7dB higher than original calibration.

3) Now I added the Daisy Chain of the EP600 from the second 350v3, keep in mind the 600 is not plugged in at all. As soon as I plug in the coax cable to the 600's LineIN or LineOut jacks for that matter, the SPL readings drop by about 7dB's or around 73dB SPL, or my original calibration reading at the beginning.

4) This time I turned on both 350's and unplugged the 600 from the Daisy Chain. The combined pink noise was about 86 dB's which matches what every one talks about a 6dB gain when they are close togethor. As soon as I daisy chain the 600 into the mix, it drops to about 78dB's.

5) Finally, when I turn on the 600 so I have 3 subs emitting the pink noise, I'm back to my combined 80dB's.

So, from what I can tell being the un-scientist person I am, the 600 is sucking the output from the Denon as Mojo mentions. This is weird as my understanding is that the LineIn LineOut was transparent as Ken quoting Alan mentioned. The difference when just daisy chaining 2 350's togethor was so small if any, it appears this statement holds true.

However, for whatever reason, the 600 even when powered off and unplugged is still providing resistance or whatever and sucking power from the output of the Denon.

Yep. Remember that the 350 design is different than the 600. The 350 appears to have a higher input impedance than the 600 and it therefore presents less load to the Denon. Although I'm not happy about this, I am not planning on adding a second sub. It does make auditioning other subs a pain in the butt though as they can't be daisy-chained off the 600.

One of the things I've always wondered is how badly just a single 600 may be loading my Denon. I've thought about measuring the voltage at the end of the sub cable when it's open and then plugged into the 600 to see how much it's getting sucked down. I've just never got around to doing it.

Randy, do you, my young Padawan , feel like doing this? Just stick a Y cable on the end of the sub cable, put in a 50Hz test tone, and measure the AC voltage in RMS. Then plug the cable into the sub, and measure the voltage again on the Y leg that is dangling.

Don't worry...you won't blow yourself up .

I'll have to think about it my master. I am currently getting a work out moving subs around again. I'm placing the 600 back underneath the center channel as it looks cool and the above graph was done with that setup and no EQ, pretty flat.

I'm going to place one 350 on the rightside shorter wall, and the second 350 on the opposite left wall, approximately centered.

Right now I'm using a adapter from partsexpress and splitting things at the Denon, and the 350's are daisy chained.

based on this discussion I wonder if I am going to have a hard time setting up a 600 with a 500.... hmmmmm to order a 600 or not that is the question

Would I be able to avoid this issue by using the RCA connection for one subwoofer and the XLR for my 600?

Good question, the problem is my Denon does not have XLR outputs.

So I just spent three minutes measuring. I threw on a 50Hz tone, cranked my Denon's s LFE output to max (+12) and cranked the Denon's main gain.

With the 600 disconnected, I was measuring 5V rms on the cable. With the 600 connected, I measured 1.5V rms (not good). Doing the math, the 600's input impedance is about 43% of the Denon's output impedance. Again, not good. To prevent significant loading, the 600's impedance should be at least 10 times larger than the Denon's.

So, the 600 is loading the Denon's output too much. I suppose one solution to daisy-chaining is to crank the sub gain on the receiver and turn down the gain on the back of the 600. Give that a try.

mojo, what is causing this?

is the denon at fault (not supplying enough output voltage) or si the ep 600 at fault here?

I would say it is the Axiom as Mojo and I have daisy chained other subs together OK as long as we left the 600 out of the loop.

Jason's right. But I blame myself. I should have known better and asked the question on input impedance before I bought it. I can't beat myself up too hard though because I could have never imagined that the 600's input impedance would have been this low. It's rather unusual.

I suppose this is one way of ensuring that the receiver output can never saturate the sub .

Does the 500 have this same problem?

It will be interesting if someone from Axiom will shed some light on this issue.

I've placed my 600 back up front below my center channel because it looks cool. I place one 350 to the right side shorter wall below the acoustic panel. The other 350 is on the left full wall about 1/2 back and next to my back row of seating.

I have the gold plated adapter at the receiver splitting the 600 on on cable and the twin 350's are daisy chained currently. With the receiver on 0dB level, the 600 is at about 6 o'clock on the gain to achieve 73dB, the 350's are about 2-3 o'clock which is very high to achieve the same dB's, but with the 600 hooked to the Denon I don't have much options.

What is interesting is that Jakeman originally told me to set each sub individually 5 dB (70 versus 75) below the other speakers, when all combined they will be slightly above the others, about 78. I remember Ian stating in his video to set the first sub the same SPL as the speakers, then introduce the other subs. He went on to say most would expect a 12dB gain I think, because of the 2 additional subs, but because the RS meter is not showing you what is going on below 50hz, it is misleading, an your gain is in the higher frequencies.

I noticed when listening to music today the subs were not impressing me. So this time I calibrated the subs individually, but at the same SPL as the speakers, about 73dB. What is interesting is that I didn't get the same 8-10dB increase as before when they were all running. This time I ended up with about a 3dB gain combined or about 76dB's. For whatever reason things sound better overall now.

Not sure if it is different placement, with the 350's on the side walls and the 600 up on front stage, no sure.

Anyway, I took some pictures of graphs from each seat to show you the changes, will start a different thread for that.

Interesting results, Randy. With the two 350s daisy-chained, no problem, as was expected. However, with the 600 added to the daisy-chain, the issue previously described appears, for reasons difficult to fathom. Adding the 600 would of course further lower the overall impedance of the setup because of the parallel nature of the connection, but this wouldn't seem to be so critical. Possibly Ian can shed some light on the 600's operation, as was mentioned in a previous post.

Yes John, I put togethor an email to Brent and JC, who are going to forward it on to the two Chief Engineers, Ian and Tom.

The results were also the same if I split the signal at the receiver.

Yes, that's as would be expected, since splitting at the receiver sub output with Y connections is electrically the same as the split done internally in the subs when daisy-chaining.

Incidentally, on another point, it would still seem to me that with the 600 front and center that the 350s would be best placed in the left and right rear corners.

The problem is that the back wall is a walkout to our back yard. I could get one to the rear let corner, but not sure how I would route the cable over/under the door and trim to the other corner. I was not thinking when I wired the basement to run extra coax runs to the rear wall locations.

Here is an older pic behind the HT seating area. It is kind of an illusion, but there is about 16ft behind the couch to the door/windows. The surrounds look like they are mounted on the back wall, in reality they are about 12 ft from the wall hanging from the ceiling.

Right now, one of the 350's is to the right of that couch. I can get one to the back wall next to the doors, but it will be difficult placing the other sub to the left side of the back wall unless I get creative.

I did have the 600 standing up back in that corner when the 350s were about 8ft apart on the screen wall.

I wonder if Jakeman has experience this issue with the 600 sucking the output from the 600 when using other subs?

Randy, thanks a ton for posting your experience. As my signature shows... I have a 600 on order that I am planning on pairing with an existing Earthquake sub. Your experience has me worried that perhaps I should cancel the order and go with something with less input impedance.

I will admit not being nearly technical enough to understand all of the points and counterpoints raised her, but it's enough to worry me that I'm not going to get the desired results when connecting two subs to my Denon 3808.

Am I overly worried about this or should I be dialing back to the 500? Any input is very much appreciated from all those commenting here who seem to be quite knowledgeable on this subject.

Myrison,

You have the problem backwards. The higher the input impedance the better it is for your receiver.

You may just want to inform Axiom of your application and see what they say.

Thanks Mojo... yes, I wrote that backwards, but I think I still have a valid question (could be wrong though, of course) about the feasibility of pairing the EP600 with another sub. I'll ring Axiom about it as you suggest next week and see what they say. Any other thoughts appreciated from those who have tried pairing the EP600 with another sub.

Myrison,

You can certainly pair the 600 up with another sub. The issue is whether or not the other sub would have the desired SPL level that you seek.

To illustrate, I can pair my Sony active sub to the 600 and my Sony "works". However, its loudness is severly attenuated because the Denon can't produce a voltage signal of sufficient magnitude to drive it due to the 600's low input impedance.

Thanks Mojo. To get the bass I desire from my Earthquake sub now, I already have the dial maxed out on the sub and the Denon gain at about +8.5. At that level, it is good at high volume levels, but at low volumes, it lacks the effect I'd hoped for.

I'm guessing there's not going to be a definitive way to know whether the 600 is going to be acceptable combined with my existing sub until the 600 is in my room, but from the results seen here, it looks like I'll have less output from it than I do now.

It seems like my best chance at getting similar output will be to keep the volume on the EQ sub maxed out as it is now, with the Denon gain still at +8 or higher, and the volume on the Axiom sub near minimum.

Maybe the 600 will provide so much bass that the attenuation effect on the EQ sub might not matter... I'm thinking I'll just have to get it here to know for sure.

How big is your room? Is it closed off from the rest of the house?

Very moderately sized by most standards, about 12x20x9, and yes, it's a dedicated media room and has a door to close it off.

Nope. I used an Arcam avp700 processor which is also has a high output signal. In fact at one time I had 3 600s daisy chained without any issue. I've always thought the source of many of your problems was that old Denon receiver you use.

Too bad you are having so many problems dialling in those subs. I've always recommended a minimum of dual subs in any HT because the benefits of smoother response and greater headroom. However, that assumes you can calibrate and dial them in properly with each other and the mains. One of your measurements looked pretty good with all subs driven.

What's up with your SMS? Are you using the latest firmware.

Dual 600s kick butt. If you are into output, you will definitely get more output... up to 127db in room depending on placement. I'm more concerned about the upgrade in sound quality which duals provide from greater headroom, lower distortion and smoother FR.

You will NOT need dual subs. I have a single EP600 in my 4,000 cubic foot room. This room is opened up to the rest of the house via a very large staircase. So my theatre room is in essence open to the rest of the house. A single EP600 is more than enough with toms of headroom to spare. You can sell the Earthquake sub .

Well no one "needs" a single 600, dual subs or multiple subs for that matter. The question really is whether you want to continue to make incremental improvements in bass reproduction throughout the room.


A single 600 has plenty of output and it holds in own against the best subs out there, but it is still a single sub which can be stressed depending on the demands of the soundtrack and room acoustics. I've tested its limits plenty of times with tracks like WoTW, Pulse, FOTP, M&C. Multiples are always better regardless whether your criteria is headroom, smooth FR, less distortion, or more detailed textured bass. However to realize those benefits takes time and patience experimenting with placement and controls. Once you get them dialled in though there is no going back to single subs even in the case of a fabulous sub like the 600.

It wasn't that long ago that my HT looked like this.

Mo, I wish that Axiom would specifically state what the imput impedance for the EP600 amplifier(if operating correctly)is. I noted your measurements and calculation, and the calculation certainly seems to be in order. The measurement, however, although it's a relatively simple process, gave a very puzzling result, which would indicate an input impedance somewhere in the area of 200ohms, which is unheard of(at least until we're hearing it now). As you know, the typical input impedance of amplifiers is 10Kohms or more. Again, hope that Axiom can clarify.

Johnk,

You're saying that the output impedance of the Denon is around 500 Ohms? I can't find this spec in my Denon's manual. Maybe the problem is the cable. If it has a very high capacitance, it can load down the amp. I should repeat with and without the cable. But then again, I can successfully daisy chain my Sony to other amps.

John,

I'm disappointed with the small quantity of puny subs in your room .

What can I say. I had the third 600 for a while in the rear of the theatre and my brother pleaded I sell it to him before I could take the pix. However, 3 600s and 2 500s was overkill. (Even for me).

No humming by the way anywhere. And the FR was almost like the lab chart. Output was scary in demanding scenes but piano sounded delicate when I played sonatas.

Thanks for the replies Jakeman. I think I can now stop stressing over my 600/EQ combo given your feedback and again look forward to the impending sonic boom en route to Texas in a few weeks.

I do remain very interested in Axiom's feedback to Randy's questions though. Randy, sorry for hijacking your topic. I'll now sit back and await your results from Axiom. I hope they're able to work with you to unravel the problems you're having.

John, I think the one graph your referring to is the one from the Front Center seat with all subs active. I had the 600 up front in the center, one 350 on the right shorter wall about 6ft from the front wall, and the 2nd 350 on the left longer wall about 1/2 way back.

I've tried dozens of other placements as well. The below graph was taken from the same seat with just the 600 by itself a year ago, seems adding additional subs only conflicts with these results.

I have the lates firmware, I think you had me do this when I got the SMS-1 because of the subsonic changes. Currently, I am only using the SMS to plot graph with no EQ, the subs aren't running through it.

The key to fulfillment with duals and multiple subs is patience. It does take time and tweaking to realize the benefits. 600s and 500s are awesome subwoofers but you've got to dial them in properly.

Randy. I remember that sweet looking graph. What we don't have to compare are measurements from the other seats which I'm certain would show smoother response with the 350s than without. Also using the 350s you have far better headroom with its attendent lower distortion. In your earlier calibration you were dialling them in -5db lower as I recall which is significant. Reads like you have found the best placement for now.

To all readers, keep in mind when looking at Randy's charts that the SMS graphical mapping function is off by 3hz for response less than 25hz ie the graph is shifted 3hz to the right of where it should be. The 600 brickwall filter should start sloping sharply at less than 19hz.

Randy,

Do you have the 150Hz software in the 600? That would make this set-up different than your original so you should expect different results.

I've tried so many variations, I'm not sure what is the best locations anymore. It is just frustrating when you add all these treatments/bass traps, spend countless hours graphing things, purchase additional subs, for what, the graphs aren't showing me much.

Personally, I can tell the bass is more pressurized in the room, and stronger as I walk around. Maybe, my huge room, that is not perfectly rectangular, and the seating is off center, etc. is my problem.

I'm just doubting myself now on what I should do next. Now there is that buzzing problem I mentioned that kicks in as soon as I have all the subs running. I don't know how the heck to fix that.

Regarding your buzzing problem, did you try my suggestion of placing the Denon and the subs all on the same power outlet? If that fixes your problem the issue is grounding. If it doesn't fix your problem, the issue may still be grounding.

John, I forgot to mention I've gone back/forth on using your method of dialing in each sub 5dB below, and then turning them all on, and calibrating them all the same as the other speakers.

The reason why the change is that when listening to music, I was just not getting the WoW affect in the lowww end. Ian's video mentioned to calibrate them all the same, and this seems to give me the lows I would expect from subs. 3 subs should blow me out of the room, and they are not. the only time is if I put on some of those Bass Subwoofer test songs on youtube.

Mojo, I have the new amp but not sure if it is the new firmware, I can tell you it does not have the bypass option anymore.

The 600 is not on the same power outlet, but is on an outlet that is 10ft from the receiver outlet, and they are wired togethor. I don't get the noise then. It is only when I plug the other subs to the 600's Line Out Coax. I don't even think they have to be plugged in, but I'll have to test that again another night.

I would I plug everything into one outlet, an outlet only has 2 ports (or whatever you want to call them). In my AV closet I have 2 outlets side by side in a Box that accomodates 2 outlets for a total of 4 plugs. Between my Tripplitte surge protector, Odyssey amps, and HTPC,, they are all taken up.

If Outlets are wired side by side, how is that any different than outlets that are wired the same way but have longer runs of 12-2 wiring? How can a person plug everything into 1 outlet, if subs are clear across the room?

I've tested all my outlets with a tester and it shows wiring is correct.

If it has 150hz instead of by-pass, then I'm sure it's the new firmware.

3 subs may blow you out of the room if they are mis-adjusted and you are sitting right at a sweet spot. 3 subs should however result in bass the has nearly equal SPL no matter where you sit in the room provided they are properly tweaked.

Think back to physics ripple tank experiments. Now you have to master the ripples young Padawan .

Randy,

I am not suggesting that you leave them all plugged into one receptacle permanently. This is simply temporary in order to see if the problem can be alleviated through the use of a single connection. So plug a power bar into a single receptacle and branch off with a few extension cords to see if the buzzing goes away. You have to make sure that the Denon is also plugged into this power bar as you want the subs and the Denon to share the same ground. Don't turn them up too loud either because you may trip the breaker.

It's a pain but this is how you gain experience points .

Ok well it depends how hot you want the sub system. I run 4 subs in total calibrated equal to my centre speaker ie 75hz. To get there I have to calibrate each sub to 65-66hz, which leaves lots of room and output in reserve for Pulse, WoTW type stuff. At combined 75hz, I know where reference is on my system. For music and concert DVDs its fine right there but for HT action flicks I usually bump it another 3 db. In my smaller sealed treated room the subs really pressurize the HT and flap the pants as they say. But when I shut down my system everything reverts to my reference 75db setting.

Besides the headroom, the subs provide the smooth FR across more seats. I wouldn't want them to overpower the rest of the speakers or blow me out of the room. Heck, if that is the objective just crank up one sub and always sit in the sweet spot.

I agree with Mojo about the best way to reduce the hum...try to get all electricity from the same receptacle which avoids ground loops.

The problem, and I think Mojo is having this as well, is I can't dial in the subs below as your saying. To get the 600 5dB's below, say 70hz the gain on the receiver AND 600 have to be at MIN. This causes a problem for the 350's as you have to crank them to the MAX which I'm having difficult to achieve.

On the flipside, If I use a higher target SPL, say 80dB, then I have to crank my other speakers so high on the receiver levels, like +12 or more which can't bedone.

I don't know if any of this makes sense or not. I think the problem may have to do with the 600 sucking all the power from the Denon, not sure.

I may stay home today, and work on this, not sure....

My guess its the receiver/processor. What about installing the SMS into either the 600 only or 350s only and using SMS volume control?

Just so many options, why can't this be easy. It would be nice if someone would develop a program where you punch in your room measurements, and it tells you the best place to put the subs......

Ha...only when we all have the same rooms and sit at the same spot with the same speakers and equipment.

Well, since I'm home today, I better get off the couch and head back down to move some subs around, argggg. I do have speaker phone if you want to instruct me.

I have nothing productive to add, other than to say this:

Damn, I wish I had your problems, Randy.

Here you have finally struck a plausible solution to this lengthy thread. If I had gone through all of this confusion, I am certain I would have reverted to the advice of my old ball coach who gave me some inspiration when I was depressed about not playing well.

"it's not weather you win or lose, it's all about looking cool while you play."

Allow me to say,

Damn, I wish I had some of your problems, Randy.

Point.

Word.

Dig it.

Can I?

Werd

What?

Far out...

This thread has turned out to be what we ISP folks call an empty waste of bandwidth. LOL!!! Kidding.

Bogus.

Not

Scraptaculicious.

?

Randy, sorry if I missed the final configuration in another thread going on the same subject, but I'm curious what you ended up doing. Did you find a combination of location and configuration that gave you the improvement you were expecting?

Hopefully so!

Jason

Hey Jason,

Thanks for the follow up. I've been a little busy lately and haven't had to much time to do any further testing. However, I think I've found the locations that work pretty good.

I have the 600 back up front centered below my screen. One of the 350's is along the shorter right wall, out about 6ft. The other 350 is along the full left wall, slightly behind the seating area.

I may experiment a little more by moving the left 350 further back closer to the rear corner, but for now things sound pretty impressive.

Haven't done much movie testing, but music sounds pretty good. I can tell the low bass is more even around the room, with less dead spots. Youtube has a lot of great subwoofer bass songs, that about make my hair stand on end.

V2 or V3 ?

There's a sub described as v2 in the refurb store but AFAIK it looks like a v3 to me. If it is a v3 seems like a great deal...

http://www.axiomaudio.com/erp/refurb-store?page=4

That's definitely a v3.

Makes sense... between this afternoon and now it's already sold

I gotta wonder if there's something wrong with Mojo's sub (this is going to be an expensive post...). If axiom put the pass throughs on the sub, they should work properly. From what Alan's said, they're essentially just a y-connector inside the sub--you can plug into either one for input!