Hello all. I recently received the M60s and VP100 to replace my front speakers. I've been playing with all the settings and alot of people on this forum have given me great advice. I ran the Audyssey EQ yesterday morning and that seems to work pretty well.I guess I should get to my question. Music sounds great and most TV shows sound pretty good (depends on the channel). I can go from one channel where I have to have the volume at -15 and change to another and almost blow my head off, but I guess that's just my cable.

On all the DVDs I've played (only 3 or 4 so far) the center channel is so muted I can barely understand anything. If I manually push the center channel up about 8db more than my fronts I can hear fairly well but I've seen some posters say they like to run their centers about 2db more than their fronts. Oh yeah, I'm using a Denon 3808 but I don't have a high end DVD player and not a Blue-ray yet. I'm using a new Panasonic that is a recorder also, that costs around $230.

I see a lot of people using Oppos that are fairly expensive considering they don't play Blue-ray. Can the DVD player make that much diffence for the sound, particularly the center channel? All comments appreciated.

Thanks.

hmmm... interesting. something must be wrong... you shouldn't have to turn it up that high.

My vp150 comes in loud and clear at the same level as all other speakers. Occasionally on a quite movie I will bumb it up 3db at the most.

Are you sure that the tweeter and both midranges are working properly?

You might call axiom and see what they suggest.

Stupid question - how is the audio hooked up from the source to the receiver? Coaxial digital? Optical digital? Analog stereo?

Bren R.

HDMI

just give axiom a call.

Bistream or PCM? If it's PCM, perhaps your player has the center set too low. That could be totally screwing with your levels.

I have DVD set to Bitstream.

It sounds to me like the problem isn't related to the Axiom speakers, but to how you have your system set up.

Yes, there can be a big variance in channels, and this is your cable company's fault. I know that with my Dish Network, the HD channels' volume level is always about 5db quieter than the SD feeds. That has nothing to do with your Axioms, your TV, nor your receiver. It's out of your hands.

Anyway, back to your problem...

First make sure that the center is hooked up properly. Make sure you don't have a polarity problem.

Try turning that Audissey stuff off. Calibrate your speakers with an SPL meter using the instructions in the 3803's manual (I'm guessing that they'll be in there). It will involve something like setting the volume to 0db and matching the output of white noise levels of all of the speakers. This is to make sure that the Audissey EQ isn't messing something up, as I've heard of this happening around here.

Also be sure that you don't have some sort of source-specific level control interfering. I know that my receiver can store different channel levels depending on the source. With a few mis-matched settings, it's easy to get it messed up and really affect the sound quality. Don't ask how I know this.

There are probably adjustable channel levels on the DVD player too, but they should only be active if you're using the analog outs. Since you're using the digital HDMI connection and using your 3803 as the decoder (as you should be), I don't think you'd have a problem there. Do double check the settings in the DVD player to make sure it isn't doing some sort of dynamic range compression or other tricks to play with the sound.

If the problem was due to polarity then audyssey would have picked that up on the auto set up. I doubt that is the problem.

You're right and I was careful to run + to + and - to -.

Hi,

How and where is your VP100v2 located relative to your video display, your main speakers and your main seating area? Take a few minutes to read Alan's advise at http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_center_channel_intelligibility.html

If you need futher assistance to fix the problem do not hesitate to phone me on Axiom's toll free line (1.866.244.8796). I'm on duty until 9:00 this evening and all day tomorrow from 10:00 to 9:00 (Eastern Time)

Good luck!

Did you have the problem before you used Audyssey, or did it only happen afterwards?

Always had this problem. I've only had my speakers since Wednesday.

VP100 sits on top of Samsung 56" DLP. I have it wedged up in the rear and it points directly at our seating area about 7.5 feet away.
I've posted this pic on another forum but I'll show it here so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

Is the DVD player set to Stereo or Multi-Channel?

It seems strange to me. I set the audio in the DVD disks setup menu to Dolby 5.1 but when I open the DVD player setup menu all I have to choode from is English 3/2.1 Esp 3/2.1 and Fra 3/2.1. I'm not sure what I need to do from here.

My 3808 shows Dolby Digital while the movie is playing.

3/2.1 is 5.1, unless I'm mistaken.

My mistake, I mean't English 3/2.1 Esp 1/2.1 and Fra 2/2.1. I think the 3, 2 and 1 are just the menu numbered item.

Wait, this is in the DVD player setup menu? I have no idea what that could mean.

Just a thought like that: did you try configuring your system in 4.1 (tell your receiver there is no central channel)? If you have the same issue, then it is something coming from the source path. If you don't have the problem, the definitely look at phases (+- speaker wires) as it is a frequently overlooked source of problems.

I'll give that a shot. I'm almost positive I don't have any phase problems. My wire is copper colored on 1 side and silver on the other and I'm very careful when I connect the speakers. Also I believe that Audyssey would have told me if I had a speaker out of phase.

I asked earlier if DVD players such as the Oppos would make a big difference as far as sound when compared to a player/recorder such as the Panasonic DMR-EZ28K that I'm using. Would you know about that?

It is highly unlikely, given that you are outputting completely digitally. It might make a difference video wise, but it unlikely to affect the sound--especially not in this way.

I'm still voting for Audyssey screwing up.

Bert, he said he had this problem prior to Audyssey.

If your only choices are 2.x (whatever x is) then that is your problem. You need at least 3.x for the center channel to get signal.

3/ is the 3rd choice... You need to see at least 3.x for the center channel to get signal.

It's getting a signal it's just not very loud. As I've seen some say that they run their center just a couple db louder than their fronts but for DVDs to sound good I have to set my center from 6 to 8 dbs louder than the fronts.

What do most people set crossovers at for their centers?

When I ordered the Axioms Brent told me the VP100 should work fine with the M60s since my listening area wasn't more than 12 feet from the television. Should I have gone with the VP150?

1 other thought. When I unboxed my speakers the VP100 had something rattling around inside. It sounded like a washer or a screw. When I called they told me to take out one of the drivers and see if I could tell what was loose inside. I did take out one of the drivers but couldn't locate what it was. It was either stuck to one of the magnets or just caught up in the fluffy stuff similar to insulation that is inside.

I was thinking of when things say 3/2 to represent the five channels (3 front, 2 surround).

Have you tried sticking your ear up to the VP100 and checking that all 3 drivers are working?

I have the VP100 with M80s, and it works fine. From the sound of it, your setup is working fine except from DVD. Is that correct? (for example, using Dolby Pro Logic II or DTS:Neo6 with a CD or TV signal).

Center crossover on my VP100 is at 100Hz, but I don't know if you have the option of different crossovers for different channels. Even so, the crossover shouldn't make the difference on how loud the center is compared to the other channels. It might make a difference in how it sounds, but not in how loud it is.

I think I'll scrounge up another DVD player somewhere and do a comparison. Some of the cable shows running Dolby do sound pretty good so it has to be my DVD player.

Or how your receiver is handling your DVD player's input.

You are right. The x/ prefix is the menu choice. If you cannot choose a surround output (e.g. /3.x or better) you will not get surround. Granted, you will hear a little in the center even in stereo mode (no mode is perfect).

Again, see if you can set your DVD player to anything but stereo (the 3 choices you listed were all stereo, but there is probably another menu setting to enable surround).

If not, try a different DVD player.

I really don't think so... All modes he listed were stereo.

I know of no DVDs that would only output in stereo. It's part of the spec!

I think we need an exact model number so we can try to find the manual online and see what's going on. It doesn't make sense to me that the menu items would be 3, then 1, then 2, with English being the third option, and it doesn't make sense that those would be the DVD player's setup options instead of the specific DVD's, considering language options change with each disc.

I think we have an exact model number somewhere in there.

Aha. I missed that one even after I skimmed back through it.

I have a couple of music video DVDs that are recorded in Stereo only, but that's not what I'm getting at. I think the DVD player is set to stereo mode, not the DVD itself. There should be a setting in the DVD player setup menu to tell it to output "Mutlichannel" or "5.1" instead of stereo. I think on my Denon 2930ci there is an option to output either stereo or multichannel for HDMI sound output.

But if he turns it up enough, it gets sound. I think the problem's in the receiver. If he's outputting bitstream, then the DVD player should just be pulling the 5.1 straight off the disc and handing it to the receiver for decoding and processing.

BTW, I meant to say "no DVD players" not "no DVDs," as I think I have one or two that are in mono (!).

I'm a bit concerned about the rattle inside the speaker. Still want to know what that is/was.

After looking through the DVD menus again I think that English 3/2.1 is Panasonics way of saying 5.1. As I mentioned previously I've only tried a few DVDs as I just received my speakers last week and very recently ran Audyssey. I tried Master and Commander, Transformers, a couple of music DVDs such as Eagles and Crosby, Stills & Nash but this morning I put in the World Trade Center DVD with Nicolas Cage and the center channel sounded very good so either the DVDs have vastly different sound or using a somewhat cheap DVD player/recorder doesn't do them all justice.

I appreciate all the help and hints from everyone

More likely the DVDs have vastly different sound. A lot of times the dialog gets kind of lost in special effects. I'm always sitting there with the remote turning it up and down when I'm watching a movie.

I don't own one so I can't say for sure, but the fact that the 3803 is saying 'Dolby Digital' is probably a good sign.

Does the 3803 have any sort of graphical display of the speakers? On my Pioneer Elite, for instance, on the front panel it has a speaker diagram. It lights up according to the type of source it's receiving. So a 5.1 source lights up all 5 speakers and the sub. A 2.0 source just lights up the 2 mains, etc. Something like that would at least prove to you that the DVD player was outputting the data correctly.

Double check that you haven't got the 3803 set to some strange processing mode (like 'Hall' or 'Jazz'). Though I'm sure that's pretty unlikely.

I still say that you need to figure out how to make your 3803 generate test tones and do some detective-work that way. That way you can actually hear what it is producing. If the white noise sounds strange, quieter, or just plain different on that center channel, then the problem has to be in the 3803 or the speaker. You could ignore the DVD player as a source of the problem. You've got to narrow down the potential sources of trouble.

You could also try swapping the VP100 with an M60. See if you can move the 'dead' channel. If the 'silence' moves, then it's a problem with the speaker. In that case, I'm sure Axiom will be happy to assist you. If it doesn't move, and the center stays quiet even with an M60, then it's a problem with the 3803 or the wiring.

If all of the speakers sound fine & equal when testing, then I bet that the problem lies in some setting somewhere on the DVD player or the 3803.

Edit: Interesting you bring up Master & Commander. Which audio track are you listening to? The Dolby Digital 5.1 or the DTS track? Try them both, see if you get a difference in sound quality. This would also be a good test to make sure that the DVD player is set to output correctly, as the 3803 should read 'Dolby Digital' vs. 'DTS' as you switch.

Bobby, from your latest post it appears that maybe the specific DVDs that you had tried are the problem. As Alan and others have pointed out, the center channel level does vary quite a bit on various movies. The latest one you tried and found the center channel to be okay indicates that the DVDs are the problem and that the player is fine, regardless of whether it's "cheap".

I'm using a 3808 but they are probably close. I'm not sure how to change to DTS from Dolby Digital. It seems that when the avr recognizes a Dolby Digital signal I don't have the choice of changing it

Maybe somebody else with more experience will know more than I on this, but try going to either "option", "language", or "setup" on the actual master and commander title menu. There you might be able to change the output from dolby digital to dts.

It depends how the individual DVD is mastered. Some let you switch between audio tracks on the fly, some don't. I seem to recall M&C being one that requires you to go back to the main menu to switch audio tracks.

So, in the main menu, check out audio options. Select DTS and see what lights come on on the receiver and also what speakers light up.

My suspicion all along is that the digital settings on the DVD player are whack. If you want the receiver to decode the digital signal (which you do), then go to your set-up menu on the DVD player. Go to digital audio or audio or whatever sounds like a likely candidate. The settings for both Dolby Digital and DTS should be set to bitstream - not PCM. This should set the player's outputs properly.

I've checked all that, everything is indeed set to bitstream.

Then, without a Denon myself. I am stumped.

Maybe I missed it, but have you checked that the Panny is set to output to a 5.1 setup? Maybe it is downmixing everything to 2 channel. One way to check is to look at the speaker set up in your player and make sure the picture shows 5.1 speakers, with each set to small.

And can you confirm whether the lights come on when you change from a cd playing from the DVD player (2 speakers should light up), a dolby digital DVD (6 speaker lights should come on, along with the DD symbol) and a DTS track (again 6 speakers should light up, but the DTS symbol should show).

That should eliminate source set-up issues.

Once that is eliminated and the above suggested speaker switcheroo is tried, then the problem can be isolated to the DENON (or not), which will make it easier to diagnose.

try pressing the 'standard' button on the remote... if you have a'simulation' surround enabled it can make things sound funny.

but it does sound like the problem is with the source so maybe there is nothing odd going on after all

When in Dolby mode there are 6 lights on Denon display, 5 for the speakers and 1 for the sub and I've come to the conclusion that the Panosonic DVD display that says 3/2.1 is their version of saying 5.1. I think the problem I'm having sometimes is actual DVD related because after inserting several more over the last day or so it seems tthat there can be a big difference from DVD to DVD.

From brief searching, it does seem like both Panasonic and Sony use 3/2.1 to denote 5.1 audio at times, though your mentions of 1/2.1 and 2/2.1 were confusing to me.

Wolfdude. I don't recognize your muppet avatar. Can you refresh my memory?

Sorry about the confusing info. After looking again it should have been 3....English 3/2.1 2....Espanol 3/2.1 1....Franc 3/2.1. They were the actual menu items of each of the different modes. Computer in a different room and couldn't see the display on the TV. As a prominent politician said recently "I must have misremembered"

Maybe one of the babies from 'Brian and his baby bouncy band'? I couldn't find a reference but I remember this on the Muppet show.

I'm not real sure either but that baby looks suspiciously like Robert Blake (Baretta) a while before he was in the Little Rascals or Our Gang (I always get'em mixed up). I found a chimp shooting a pistol that kinda goes along with my signature line, I'm probably gonna start using him today

Oh, wait. I just realized what you are talking about. I guess everyone has agreed to use a Muppet avatar. I'll see what I can do.

Hey, it's Dr. Honeydew's bearded brother... Dr. Crucible Honeydew! (this still lets JohnK be Bunsen).

Nice avatar, I like it!

Yeah, I didn't know what muppets were already taken so I thought I'd add a beard. Can't be a wolfman without a beard

Most certainly not!

I may have missed something but have you tried angling the center down a little bit more towards the listening position? It looks like it is shooting straight out above the TV and no where near the listening positions.


I am still looking for a suitable Grover picture....Just got back from 4 days in the Rockies.

I have 2 rubber door stops under the center and it is angled down toward the seating area, pretty much about head level for us.

If you notice there is a cross sitting on top of the center. That is the angled side so it has to be raised in the back or nothing would sit on it.

I'm gonna change my avatar to Grover for a while so you can see it and if you like it I'll send it to you. I like the one I'm currently using so I hope you see Grover soon