Another Audyessy question

Posted by: Joe_in_SC

Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 04:55 PM

I decided to give Audyssey another try, but I still have mixed feelings about it. It doesn't seem to get the distances or channel levels exactly right, and some are way off. For example, it had my left surround about 2.5 dB too hot.
But my question is why does Audyssey calculate that the distance to my sub is 1.7 feet when it's actually 6.7 feet? Should I leave it alone or change it?
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 05:20 PM

How do you know your left surround is to hot? The room characteristics and speaker placement play a huge role in the end results. My right surround is 2 dB's different than my left surround, because my right surround has no wall behind to reinforce things.

The sub distance can somtimes be different based on internal delay in the sub amp circuitry, especially in DSP subs. However, normally the setup has it further away than the physical distance.
Posted by: Joe_in_SC

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 05:54 PM

After I ran Audyssey, I checked all the levels with my sound meter. And I don't have a DSP sub (EP350 v2).
My initial reaction after listening for a few hours to a movie is that the sound is fuller, but slightly colored and artificial. Not unpleasant, just more noticeable.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 06:30 PM

As long as you had the SPL meter in the EXACT location left/right/height and orientated straight up, I can see your concern, the SPL reading should be the same. However, the dB levels on the receiver might be a few dB's different to achieve the same reading.

In regards to the sub that is strange as well. My EP350v3's using my old Denon 2805 setup give me the exact distance from the sub's voice coil on the driver to the mic. Now the EP600 is another story, because of the DSP, the receiver puts my 600 about 10ft further than it actually is....I don't have Audyssey.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 07:19 PM

Which receiver are you using?

When you do the audyssey setup are you doing 3,4, or more locations? I have found Audyssey really needs the extra locations to get its EQ right.

Do you have the latest firmware updates for your receiver, if avaialble? There could be other noises that are causing Audyssey to set things up wrong, make sure the room is dead quiet. I do my set ups at 2-3AM when I get home from work.
Posted by: Joe_in_SC

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 07:31 PM

I've got a Denon 2308CI, so no software issues. I used all 6 locations that it allows, and I did the 3 main seating positions plus another 3 readings about 2 feet in front of those.

Outside noise is a possibility. I shut off the furnace, but there could be some faint road noise affecting the readings. Do you think that could be affecting the sub distance?

Bottom line is still - should I adjust the distance to the actual measurement or go with Audyssey? I suppose I could try both and see if it makes a difference. Maybe I'm stressing over something that really doesn't matter that much?
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 07:51 PM

Well, you do want your SPL readings to be the same from the primary seating position. The distances and dB levels on the receiver for each speaker can be different, but the goal is to have the same SPL from the desired seat. If your going back and running the receivers pink noise, and the Radio Shack meter has a 2+ difference between the left/right surrounds that is not right. How many times have you run the Audyssey? Maybe you will get different results if you run it again..

The first measurement you take is the crucial one, which sets the distances, dB levels, etc.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 08:36 PM

Maybe try only 4 readings. I know the 3808 has had some issues in some rooms with the max 8 readings, not sure why, but when they dropped to 4 or 6 readings it worked right.
Posted by: dewd

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 09:27 PM

When using an SPL meter, you are measuring white noise with all the room problems. When Audyssey measures, it uses sweeps. Also, there is a +/- 2db variance on the SPL and the Audyssey MIC.

The sub distance is a problem. It should not be closer (it could be farther and still be correct). Was there any room noise when you did the test. Thinks like cooling fans can make Audyssey give weird results.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 09:48 PM

Hey Dave, none of your Home Theater website pictures are working, fyi....
Posted by: Joe_in_SC

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 10:45 PM

I'll have to try it again tomorrow and compare the results. Any theories on why I'm getting the weird sub distance readings? I've done the sub crawl and the present position is the best of all possible options.
Posted by: dewd

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 11:50 PM

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Hey Dave, none of your Home Theater website pictures are working, fyi....


Thanks. I am redoing my site and got really started deleting without thinking. They are working again.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/24/09 11:56 PM

Joe, as to difference in the level readings, as I've commented before, there's no good reason to believe that the SPL reading taken with a separate meter(and with human error in reading it possibly a factor)is more accurate(or as accurate)than the result from the Audyssey microphone and built-in meter.

Where the sub difference is shown as being significantly shorter than the actual distance, this would seem to indicate that a nearby reflection is affecting the result. If you had the microphone positioned clear of obstructions for the first central reading, maybe you should try another first reading from about 6-7' away from the sub even if not in the listening position , to see if a similar short measurement results.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/25/09 11:20 AM

pictures are working again Dave, but it is VERY slowwwwww. Are you hosting your own website? I've got broadband and this is reminding me of the old dial-up days....
Posted by: Joe_in_SC

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/25/09 11:32 AM

That's a good idea John. If I take just a first reading to verify the setup, will that give me the sub distance? Or will I have to go through the whole multi-position routine? My receiver needs a minimum of 3 readings before it will do the calculations.

I was trying to analyze this situation (the way we engineers tend to do), and it's probably not such a big deal as I'm making it out to be. After all, the distance setting is used to calculate a delay time in microseconds. It seems unlikely that a difference of a couple of thousandths of a seconds would even be noticeable, especially with a long low frequency wave.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/25/09 11:41 AM

If your a member on the AVSforum, there is an Audyssey thread in the Audio Receivers/Amps section. Chris from Audyssey is a regular and maybe he could help answer these questions...
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/25/09 10:18 PM

Joe, the first Audyssey reading(usually from the main listening position)is the one that sets the speaker levels, crossovers and distances; the remaining readings are for the purpose of room equalization adjustments. So, if you decide to try the first reading at different positions to check what the sub distance shows, use the least number of readings that give you a result for sub distance.
Posted by: alan

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/26/09 09:37 AM

Hello Joe,

While we'd all like to believe that Audyssey's automatic calibration and EQ is an audio panacea, it isn't, and it's error prone. I suggest you use your Radio Shack Sound Pressure Meter and adjust the levels and distances manually. You can tweak the levels of your surround speakers, subwoofer and center channel by ear if necessary later on.

Leave Audyssey Equalization switched off. As you've discovered, with really linear speakers like Axioms, Audyssey may degrade sound quality.

Incidentally, it is pink noise (not white noise) that is used. Pink noise has equal energy per musical octave; white noise has equal energy per frequency, so it's heavily biased towards the upper midrange and high frequencies.

Regards,

Alan
Posted by: BoB/335

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/26/09 12:27 PM

Is this a good product with the meter bundle?

http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-avia.cfm
Posted by: RickF

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/26/09 12:30 PM

Bob, several of us here do use the Avia disc ... it's worth having.
Posted by: BoB/335

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/26/09 12:36 PM

I'll add that to my never ending list!
Posted by: Joe_in_SC

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/26/09 05:31 PM

Thanks Alan. For some reason I keep coming back to Audyssey, probably because of the peer pressure on these boards. But frankly, the Axioms by themselves, without any technical help, always sound best.
Posted by: dewd

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/26/09 09:37 PM

 Originally Posted By: alan
Hello Joe,

While we'd all like to believe that Audyssey's automatic calibration and EQ is an audio panacea, it isn't, and it's error prone. I suggest you use your Radio Shack Sound Pressure Meter and adjust the levels and distances manually. You can tweak the levels of your surround speakers, subwoofer and center channel by ear if necessary later on.

Leave Audyssey Equalization switched off. As you've discovered, with really linear speakers like Axioms, Audyssey may degrade sound quality.

Incidentally, it is pink noise (not white noise) that is used. Pink noise has equal energy per musical octave; white noise has equal energy per frequency, so it's heavily biased towards the upper midrange and high frequencies.

Regards,

Alan


Wow! Not sure what to say here. I completely disagree. It is statements like this the make me really wonder... What is the motive. How is it error prone? What experience do you have with the product?

I guess all I can really say is with my Axiom's in my room, Audyssey makes a world of difference.
Posted by: SRoode

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/26/09 10:05 PM

Audyssey has a tendency to cancel out stuffed animal interference.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/27/09 11:07 AM

I just go with the idea if you like the way it sounds with Audyssey then use it, if you don't like it, then turn Audyssey off.
Posted by: Murph

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/27/09 11:14 AM

 Originally Posted By: SRoode
Audyssey has a tendency to cancel out stuffed animal interference.


DOH! I thought you guys had forgotten about my cat toy in the EP500 port problem. Well at least, I didn't go down the Equalizer road with that one. I'd still be home madly tweaking.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/27/09 11:57 AM

Oh man, that was hilarious. That reminds me, I should check my EP350 at some point...
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: Another Audyessy question - 01/27/09 09:55 PM

The whole Audyessy debate is very simple. Play around with setting it up a few times and if you like what it does then keep it, if not, don't sweat it and disable it.

I've done the latter. More to the extreme of resetting the receiver and re-calibrating with a SPL meter like Alan suggested above.