Is my amp powerful enough?

Posted by: minorc

Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 09:40 AM

Just picked up a mint condition set of M80's to mate with my M22's and energy center, couldn't pass up on the deal.After reading about the 4ohm could-be issues I'm a little worried that my amp doesn't have the specs or enough juice to push these speakers properly.

I have a Denon avr-888, same as AVR-2308ci.
100 watts per chan.

I apologize in advance if this topic has been beaten to death, I'm a "noob" at home theatre but I'm really trying to learn.
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 10:33 AM

Here's a picture, so you get the visual of what I'm working with.

laugh

Posted by: a401classic

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 10:52 AM

Denon's are well liked around here and provided you don't play at ear splitting levels, you should be good. Despite the 4 ohm load, the M80's are very efficient.
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 10:58 AM

Awesome!

So what I'm assuming is that the mix of my speakers 4ohm and 8ohm is alright to do, you don't have to have them at all the same ohm ratings.

M80 Fronts 4ohm
Energy Center 8ohm
M22 Surround 8ohm

They sound great even at -9db (cranked), I thought they would be louder at lower volumes, is there a way to make them louder at lower levels? More amp power maybe? or is -30db going to be the same loudness no matter the amp or speaker?


Thanks !
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 02:55 PM

That's correct, you're fine with mixed impedances. What you should do, however, is make sure your receiver is set to the _highest_ impedance. So if you've got an 8 ohm and a 4 ohm setting, choose 8. Always. Even if all you've got is 4 ohm speakers.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 06:03 PM

no problem, also if you can you might try spreading out the m80's a bit more, and slightly toe them in.
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 08:51 PM

Originally Posted By: PorterPlex
no problem, also if you can you might try spreading out the m80's a bit more, and slightly toe them in.


How much more do you think? I don't have all the space in the world. Is there an ideal distance between the speakers and listening area?
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 09:10 PM

Generally, you want to create a triangle, with an equal distance from you to each speaker, and between the two speakers.

That's not always practical, and not always the best for every circumstance, but it's generally considered the ideal.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/27/12 09:11 PM

Chris, welcome. You should be able to spread each M80 a foot wider(and be sure that they and the center are slightly in front of the surface of the equipment stand). Generally, if the room is available, the mains should be spread about the same amount as the distance to the listening position.

As to the power, as other replies have indicated, there should be no problem at any safe(to your hearing)listening level. The setting on the volume control doesn't directly indicate amplifier power and varies with the level of the source materials. It shouldn't be a matter of concern.
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 10:29 AM

Originally Posted By: JohnK
Chris, welcome. You should be able to spread each M80 a foot wider(and be sure that they and the center are slightly in front of the surface of the equipment stand). Generally, if the room is available, the mains should be spread about the same amount as the distance to the listening position.

As to the power, as other replies have indicated, there should be no problem at any safe(to your hearing)listening level. The setting on the volume control doesn't directly indicate amplifier power and varies with the level of the source materials. It shouldn't be a matter of concern.


So if I'm understanding you correctly, I should pull the M80's 6" or so forward and a foot or more away from the stand. Now the center, I should bring it closer to me or? That center channel is a joke now with the M80 fronts and M22 rears, lol.

Something like this;
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 11:16 AM

Yes....correct.

One more suggestion, though: Using that center channel speaker is going to hurt the potential sound quality overall. I would remove it, and set your receiver to output a phantom center image.

This means, when you don't have a benter speaker, that your receiver splits the center channel info between your L and R main speakers...in this case, much more capable speakers.

There's a lot of info on the center channel, and putting that through that small speaker will hold you back.
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 11:32 AM

Alright, I've got no clue how to set that up on the Amp but I'll give it a shot. I think it's time to sell the Energy and get me a new center chan.

Any suggestions that would mate well with M80's and M22's?

Thanks, you're all a great help!
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 01:06 PM

First choice: VP180
Second choice: VP160

Phantom center: Just disconnect the center speaker from AVR, then rerun any sound calibration that comes with the receiver, such as Audyssey, MCACC, etc.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 01:12 PM

the 180, is basically an M80 on it's side, with a slightly different driver configuration...


And, it's FREAKING awsome.......
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 02:08 PM

What about the VP150?

Price is good, it's big enough (27")
Do the 160 and 180 really pound that much harder?
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: minorc
What about the VP150?

Price is good, it's big enough (27")
Do the 160 and 180 really pound that much harder?


The VP100 and the VP150 is a good match for the M22's.

For anything bigger, you really want more oomph that only the 160 and 180 can give you.

I'm using the 160 with M22's with good results.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: minorc
What about the VP150?

Price is good, it's big enough (27")
Do the 160 and 180 really pound that much harder?


It's not about how much bass they put out; it's more about the full sound spectrum that the 180 can cover. It’s hard to put into words; due to the significant amount of audio material in the Center channel of almost any content one watches. Having a full sized center channel is the ideal situation. The dialog from conversations, as well as musical content coming from the center channel is much more realistic with a speaker that has a larger frequency response.. It’s more of a “presence” issue than a bass issue. I had a VP-150 for many years with my M60’s, and always felt that the 150 was not enough speaker to match the over -all output of the M60’s.. With a similar sized speaker the entire sound stage can be better balanced….


That is my rational for getting my 180…
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 04:36 PM

But it's a monster lol!

I'll need a whole new stand just for that speaker.
What to do..

One more question fellas, Having 5 speakers setup vs having only 2 connected, puts more stress on the Amp ?
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 05:38 PM

I think the 150 would be a fine match, especially in that room, it is more for dialog in movies. I owned one for many years with my m60's and leter m80's, in my bigger room, it it was fine.
Posted by: JohnK

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/28/12 09:59 PM

Chris, the idea is to have the speakers maybe an inch in front of the stand surface to minimize reflections and refractions. With the current Energy center, bring it forward and stand it up vertically.

The suggestion to try the M80s to form a "phantom" center is a good one. This is done simply by setting the center speaker "None" in the 888's speaker setup menu. Any center channel material is then automatically sent equally to the two mains which create the image midway between them. The advantages of a separate center speaker include keeping the image in the center for listeners off-center(the "phantom" shifts with the listener)and the ability to set it louder independent of the mains to compensate for dialog set too low in a movie.

For a better center speaker, the VP160 or VP180 would be fine, but a more economical choice that would do the job is a vertical M22 that essentially matches the M80 above the bass area. Your stand appears to be about 20" high, which would be ideal to make the M22 also match the M80 height. You could experiment with one of your present M22s, or even use both of them side-by-side.

If you have other Energy speakers, they could be used as surrounds. Using those speakers at close range as surrounds in your small room might justify experimenting with placing them to the side of the listening position, but facing toward the back wall to get a more diffuse sound suitable for surround effects.
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/29/12 08:12 AM

I never though of using the M22 as a center, at the moment they're not even connected due to space restrictions, I'm only running the M80's, Velodyne DPS and the energy center.

I'll try the Phantom center and the M22 as center this afternoon and report back.

Thanks very much again fellas, out of all the boards I lurk or moderate this is the most helpful and friendly.
Posted by: cb919

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/29/12 05:44 PM

+1 to the M22 center idea - I hope you post your experiences once you try it out.
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/30/12 12:43 PM

Originally Posted By: cb919
+1 to the M22 center idea - I hope you post your experiences once you try it out.


The single M22 wins. Although it looks kind of goofy, but the sound is much better than the phantom or the energy. Movie dialogue is the perfect volume for the movies that I tried.

The M22 stands out the most when listening to music.

Looks like I'll have to order another M22 once I make some space to set up surrounds.
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 12/31/12 05:22 PM

Just purchased Pioneer SC-1227-k, 4 ohm compatible, with 7 hdmi inputs.. now I don't have to keep plugging and unplugging things on my denon.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 01/02/13 12:41 AM

Nice, let us know what you think of it
Posted by: cb919

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 01/02/13 09:31 AM

Sounds good. Looks like your getting setup nicely for some great audio experiences. Have fun with it!
Posted by: minorc

Re: Is my amp powerful enough? - 01/02/13 10:10 AM

Yeah well, I don't think my Denon was handling the M80's all that well. A few times I notice the input kicking off then on. Might aswell take advantage of the boxing day sales. Will post a picture once I get it all set up.