A/V receiver specs question?

Posted by: Mad_Chesser

A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 12:41 AM

I know I'm asking lots of questions lately..sorry

This is in regards to buying a new receiver

1) Speaker Crossover Settings, what's best: Global or Independent? I've JUST joined the "new age" of HT about 6 months ago, only reading and scouring the internet, and I'd guess independent would be better?

2) I'm debating hard between a Marantz SR5007 and a Pioneer SC-61...STILL. lol Personally, I'm leaning towards Pioneer's sound. I just like it a bit better. But not a LOT better. I'm a tweaker. I love tweaking settings, so Pioneer's MCACC would be a good fit for someone like me.

But I'm also told you can't EQ/adjust levels of subwoofers with MCACC. The audyssey the Marantz is equipped with does this very well I've read. Is this very important? Is there any way I can do this with the Pioneer(even if I have to buy some other piece of equipment like a SPL meter)?

And which would you pick if it was you and why?

edit: my planned subwoofer is a SVS pb13-ultra which has EQ built in should I need to mess with it. Would I be able to still make it blend nicely without the Pioneer's features?
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 01:39 AM

I didn't know independant was an option until recently. If I was upgrading I would choose to go this route.
Having that much more control just makes sense, especially if your speakers
have different capabilities.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 01:41 AM

Originally Posted By: brwsaw
I didn't know independant was an option until recently. If I was upgrading I would choose to go this route.
Having that much more control just makes sense, especially if your speakers
have different capabilities.


What's the difference? The elite has global, the Marantz has independent.

I've seen some of the menu screen on the SC-57. My dad has messed around with setting speakers to small and large, set the lfe crossover at 80hz, but that's all I really remember.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 02:03 AM

My Yamaha is "global", all 9 speakers share the same cross over. The cross over of my least capable pair.
If all my speakers were worth keeping it wouldn't matter but...
Posted by: JohnK

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 02:15 AM

Nick, independent crossover settings for each group of speakers is generally a very desirable feature. It could be argued though, that if all the speakers have similar bass extension and aren't in positions where the room affects their bass much differently that a global setting is adequate.

No well-designed receivers have an inherent "sound"; it's features such as tone controls and room EQ which change the sound.

All auto-setup systems adjust the level of all speakers and the sub so as to be uniform at the listening position. Room EQ is separate from calibration for levels and there the Pioneer is unacceptable in my view because of its lack of provisions for the sub. This more than outweighs for me the flexibility in other areas with MCACC which allows the user to screw up the sound. I would choose an Onkyo or Denon(Marantz is simply an overpriced Denon)receiver with the highest grade of Audyssey which the budget would allow.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 02:31 AM

Thanks for all the great info john. Though I disagree with a few things.

I do believe it can be a good thing to have the "ability" to "screw" up the sound through mcacc. Making mistakes and trying new things is the only true way to get very good at something. Sound is very subjective and there is no true "right" way settings need to be inputed.

From experience with many amps I can confidently say there is definitely a difference between amps without eq, running in direct mode. Most notably, the difference between class a/b amps vs class d. I'm confident my ear can tell the difference blindfolded.

On that note, though both are the same company, and the similarities are many, marantz and denon share SOME different qualities, besides price.

I definitely appreciate your advice and with it, im now leaning towards a marantz. Audyssey seems very capable.

The floor is open tho...id love more opinions
Posted by: jakewash

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 03:42 AM

Nick, as you are going to be using an external amp you really only need to concern yourself with the features each avr can offer for a given price point. Right now the best bang for the buck IMO is Onkyo. It appears to me that Denon has dropped its quality in all of their avr's except the flagship 4520 and you can get all of those features for much less in an Onkyo. I haven't had a chance to hear or look over any recent offerings from H/K, Yamaha nor Pioneer. I am intrigued by the latest from Anthem with the MRX series and Outlaw's AV975. I think the 975 would be a home run if they offered ARC or Audyssey on it.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 04:09 AM

Hey thanks for the reply. I've never considered Onkyo after many poor reviews I read. It seems hit or miss. I'll take your advice and look into one though.

Quote:
Nick, as you are going to be using an external amp you really only need to concern yourself with the features each avr can offer for a given price point.


While this is true, there may be a period where I don't have an external(I may be selling it to a friend). I do agree though, my main concern is features(and mainly, room correction and eq features and whatnot).

From what I've read on many forum boards and audio sites so far, excluding Pioneer's MCACC, I'd rather stay away from other manufacturer's "in house" calibration setups. Basically MCACC or Audyssey.

Since I'm mainly going for features, I'd like to hit a decent price range...which is hard because I need pre outs for my power amps. Something I'm realizing is on only the higher models usually.

BTW, I love outlaw amps smile
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 10:29 AM

1) you want a receiver with independent settings, most receivers have this setting going back a few years, unless you buy a very cheap model. The auto setup MCACC, Audyssey, etc. will help set the desired setting, it is very simple. You can always adjust after the fact.

2) receivers don't "sound" different, unless your introducing changes to the EQ, Calibration settings, room setup. They are designed to be ruler flat from 20Hz to 20KHz from the factory.

3) if you go with a Pioneer, you can experiment with subwoofer placement, and adjust the dB levels manually with SPL meter from Radio Shack or similar. The Sub Crawl can help you dial in the proper location.

ps: I also love Outlaw smile
Posted by: cohesion

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 05:26 PM

Honestly the 'room correction' systems may not be as important as you think. Have you got a sound system in your room already? How is the sound?

No system can truly correct for poor room acoustics. The best they can do is mask some of the worst symptoms using equalization. A better approach would be to fix the underlying issues using acoustic treatments. These need not be excessively expensive.

If you go with this approach you can save money by getting a good used receiver or preprocessor that lacks these features but can still produce excellent sound.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 06:31 PM

thanks for the great replies. So with a SPL meter I CAN adjust sub levels manually if I was to buy a Pioneer Elite? That's great. That's what I needed to know, thank you smile

Again...

Quote:
receivers don't "sound" different, unless your introducing changes to the EQ, Calibration settings, room setup. They are designed to be ruler flat from 20Hz to 20KHz from the factory.


all I can say is I strongly disagree. I would bet a lot of money on the fact that I could tell a class a/b amp from a class d amp blindfolded. Even though I don't have experience with "new" receivers, I've owned A LOT of equipment in my life and there is most definitely a difference and no one can convince me otherwise. Many receivers DO sound different, running in direct mode without EQ

Although I do appreciate the opinion either way. smile
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 06:35 PM

Originally Posted By: cohesion
Honestly the 'room correction' systems may not be as important as you think. Have you got a sound system in your room already? How is the sound?

No system can truly correct for poor room acoustics. The best they can do is mask some of the worst symptoms using equalization. A better approach would be to fix the underlying issues using acoustic treatments. These need not be excessively expensive.

If you go with this approach you can save money by getting a good used receiver or preprocessor that lacks these features but can still produce excellent sound.


yeah, I have little experience with all this new room correction stuff. I agree, speaker placement is key. Although, I also have little experience with "acoustic treatments". Are you talking about sound absorbtion panels, putting area rugs down, etc?

Right now my old system sounds pretty decent. Although I would like to put a big area rug down on the floor...it's all vinyl hardwood and the adjoining room is tile.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 07:26 PM

I know different amplifiers shouldn't sound different, but I've had 4 different receivers in the past 4 years. Both of the Pioneer elites sound similar. I never could get the Denon to sound the way I liked it. And the Sony was just trash.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 07:30 PM

Hmmm interesting, I normally love denon's sound. I've only owned one sony and that was years and years ago.

I'm going to pick up a SC-61 and buy a SPL meter as well.

The SC61 is on for $899 right now in town here.
Posted by: BlueJays1

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By: cohesion
Honestly the 'room correction' systems may not be as important as you think. Have you got a sound system in your room already? How is the sound?

No system can truly correct for poor room acoustics. The best they can do is mask some of the worst symptoms using equalization. A better approach would be to fix the underlying issues using acoustic treatments. These need not be excessively expensive.

If you go with this approach you can save money by getting a good used receiver or preprocessor that lacks these features but can still produce excellent sound.


I agree with you on your assessment on the misnomer of "room correction". I am of the opinion that fixing placement and room related issues through loudspeaker equalization is a poor idea.
Posted by: SirQuack

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 08:50 PM

There are many challenges out there for $10,000 and higher for those that think they can tell the difference, you should sign up. JohnK, for some reason Coppola's article won't load anymore, hope someone saved it. Mad should have been on that panel. smile
Posted by: JohnK

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/02/13 10:09 PM

Yeah, Randy; the Coppola site is down. The Stereo Review double blind listening tests can now be found here . Still unchallenged(by contrary results in controlled tests, not just by stubborn disagreement)after all these years, but with plenty of people fervently believing(as did many of those in the SR tests in the open listening sessions before the blind tests began)that they can hear the inaudible. The importance of controlling all factors so as to be as identical as possible and having no knowledge of the identity of the unit being listened to simply isn't grasped by many.
Posted by: J. B.

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 07:28 AM

the sound treatment i did in my room, 3 4x8 ft panels of 1 in. thickness, cost about $225.
i did not do it for looks, otherwise it would have cost more.

it changed the sound quality from unacceptable most of the time to superb sound even for movies at Ref. Level or any music CD/SACD i have.

this represents superb price to improvement ratio.
Posted by: cohesion

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Mad_Chesser
Hmmm interesting, I normally love denon's sound. I've only owned one sony and that was years and years ago.

I'm going to pick up a SC-61 and buy a SPL meter as well.

The SC61 is on for $899 right now in town here.


You could also look for a sound meter app for your smartphone. I have 3 or more on my Android. Each was free and works fine for level matching.
Posted by: cohesion

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 11:07 AM

Originally Posted By: J. B.
the sound treatment i did in my room, 3 4x8 ft panels of 1 in. thickness, cost about $225.
i did not do it for looks, otherwise it would have cost more.

it changed the sound quality from unacceptable most of the time to superb sound even for movies at Ref. Level or any music CD/SACD i have.

this represents superb price to improvement ratio.


This seems a good example of what can be done for reasonable cost in an extreme case where the room itself was acoustically very bad. In my case the room itself is fairly good to begin with so furniture and speaker placement is sufficient to achieve a very good result.
Posted by: GregLee

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 11:59 AM

There are several threads on AVS forum discussing the SC-61/SC-1222-K/SC-1227-K. Here is an interesting one: SC-61 thread. I have an SC-1522-K, corresponding to the SC-65/SC-1527-K models, which is similar, but with 2 extra channels and a little more power.

All these have class D amplifiers which are rated to drive 6ohm and 4ohm speakers, which should make them a good fit with several popular Axiom speakers. (However, when I said this in another thread here, everyone else seemed to think this was totally wrong.)

It is often said that Pioneer's calibration system MCACC suffers by comparison to, e.g., Audyssey, in failing to provide subwoofer equalization. Actually, loudness, distance, 3 band equalization (called "standing wave" correction), and phase correction for a sub are all provided by MCACC.

I hear (third hand, at best), that the Pioneer engineers in Japan are unwilling to provide more than just a single cross over because they think it introduces sonic phase problems. I've never seen a detailed discussion of this, though.
Posted by: Ken.C

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 12:21 PM

We didn't think you were wrong, we thought your rationale was wrong. There's a subtle difference.
Posted by: tomtuttle

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 01:25 PM

Having experienced various settings in my room, I would never buy a receiver without independent crossovers.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 01:46 PM

Once again they are not "rated" at 4 ohms (as was pointed out in the other thread, there is a difference) but Pioneer has at least tested them with 4 ohms; kudos to Pioneer for at least doing this and giving the spec.
Posted by: GregLee

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 02:22 PM

Originally Posted By: jakewash
Once again they are not "rated" at 4 ohms ...

Pioneer's specification says how many watts they deliver into 4 ohms at 1kHz, 1% thd. That's a rating, so they are rated at 4 ohms. I really don't know what you're getting at. You, or someone, earlier pointed out that no ftc rating for 4 ohms is given in Pioneer's spec. That is also true.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/03/13 10:22 PM

Originally Posted By: GregLee
.....no ftc rating for 4 ohms is given in Pioneer's spec. That is also true.


Exactly.

Only with an FTC rating is an amp/receiver/avr truly "rated" at 4 ohm, the fact Pioneer did some tests at 4 ohm and prints it in the manual is just a bonus and gives the consumer some piece of mind if they so choose to use it with a 4 ohm speaker.
Posted by: Mikesk

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 11:02 AM

If preouts and lower cost are important considerations, the lowest I could find in a receiver is a yamaha rx-v773. $645.As far as crossover settings,from what I got out of the manual small speaker setting crossover adjusting only and then it's global.A review: http://www.digitaltrends.com/receivers-separates-amps-reviews/yamaha-rx-v773-review/
Posted by: GregLee

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 01:13 PM

The Pioneer SC-1222-K is $550 from Newegg. Pre-outs, class D amplifiers.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 01:39 PM

hey thanks guys, i'm going to look into both of those smile

found the pioneer on newegg like you say, but only the states site(no such luck on the .ca site). and then it's not really worth it. After my province's tax, the duty, the shipping and handling...I'd be better off paying the 899 for the sc-1227k from futureshop in town here.
Posted by: GregLee

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 03:49 PM

The rumor is that the Pioneer SC-1227-K, sold in Canada, the SC-1222-K, and the Elite SC-61 are functionally the same. (As are the SC-1527-K, SC-1522-K, and Elite SC-65.) Pioneer doesn't warranty the Elite models, though, when bought over the net.
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 04:05 PM

Yeah, I read the sc-1227K was the futureshop exclusive of the SC-61.

I'm not positive on this, but I thought the 1222K was the same MINUS a 12v trigger(which isn't a big deal to me)? I don't know if this is true for sure though. My googling provided many conflicting answeres.

But like I said, the 1222K you mentioned isn't available on the newegg.ca site. Only the newegg.com site. After the cost of taxes, duties, shipping and handling...I might as well buy the 1227K from futureshop for 899. That way it's got warranty too.
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 04:41 PM

Link to Pioneer Elite's warrant concerning Authorized dealers.

First they say that on-line dealers are not authorized to sell the Elite brand, then they give a list of those businesses that are authorized dealers. One of these is Amazon.com which is an authorized dealer.

It would be my assumption that as long as the Pioneer Elite is purchased from one of these authorized dealers that the warranty would be effective. I could be wrong. I bought an SC-65 recently through Amazon. It probably would be worth an e-mail or call to Pioneer to know for sure.
Posted by: GregLee

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: CatBrat
One of these is Amazon.com which is an authorized dealer.

Amazon is an authorized internet dealer, and you do get a warranty if you buy from them except for Elite branded products.

By the way, though Amazon does not have a good price for the 1222, it does price the 1522 at $1k.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 08:50 PM

You should have bought one when you were in Edmonton, could have saved on the PST, another road trip planned?
Posted by: Mad_Chesser

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 09:08 PM

Originally Posted By: jakewash
You should have bought one when you were in Edmonton, could have saved on the PST, another road trip planned?


Yeah, this would be a great idea.

Actually yes smile When I officially have the money in my account, I plan to take the wife and kids to the Calgary Zoo. Go on a nice little holiday through edmonton(west ed mall), then Calgary, then through canmore/banff on our way home. Thanks for reminding me about the pst. I'll most likely end up doing this smile

I'm thinking July or August if I can get a few days off from the new job(shouldn't be a problem though)
Posted by: doormat

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/05/13 11:52 PM

Originally Posted By: jakewash
You should have bought one when you were in Edmonton, could have saved on the PST, another road trip planned?


One thing I'll never do again is buy an expensive receiver in a far away city. It may come with a great warranty, but unless it's from a national chain or includes shipping you're going on a few extended road trips.
Posted by: jakewash

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/06/13 12:11 AM

Warranty gets done through authorized service centers, shouldn't matter where you buy it as long as it is in Canada, keep the box and it could be shipped which is not quite as expensive as a road trip to drop it off.
Posted by: doormat

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/06/13 12:23 AM

..but no longer free, was kinda my point (yeah, I'm half Scot).
Posted by: CatBrat

Re: A/V receiver specs question? - 03/06/13 08:04 AM

Beam me up.